For me, the focus is 'fractal'. But that is because I recognize the UF elements and the flame elements. It is a picture of a hummingbird tasting the nectar of this beautiful flower. Is that what you are asking? Marion

The focus is the bird...it's what my eye is drawn to in the image. ;o)

I am being vague on purpose. The bird is a bunch of flames that were assembled in UF. The whole image is a UF image. If I assembled the same flames in Photoshop, would it make a difference?

I don't think it would make a difference. The bird is still the focus and still fractals. The program used to assemble it doesn't play into it. ;o)

Hey that's the humming bird that sent me off on a wild bird tangent! I hope you know you have me seeing birds in almost every flame...it's awful, LOL. He is a very beautiful hummingbird :). By the way think the focus is fractals, but that's probably because I can see the flames in the bird. Or the bird in the flames, oh no. To me a fractal is a fractal no matter how it's used or assembled. Though some are thinking the programs used do play a part, no matter how they were used.

My first look (thought)finds the focus of this image to be "beauty" and "colour". The second look (thought)tells me it's a hummingbird feeding from a flower that is composed entirely of fractals. :) Most excellent imagery!

Keith - It doesn't matter if the fractals were composed in UF or in another program as the result is the same. ie: if someone were to make a bunch of fractals with, say, Flarium or Apo but they didn't have UF, they could layer them with PSP and achieve the same effect as with UF. The thing is that all the shapes/parts are fractals made with a "fractal generator" and the "focus" or "subject" is the grouping/layering of fractals that looks like a humminbird. Same with kaleidoscoping a fractal - you map it with UF or with PSP or Photoshop filters and it would look the same. That's one of the all-time great fractal art images you've made there, BTW! Rick

To me the focus of the image is the flower, then the bird, and lastly the background. Are you asking how to classify this piece? I am not sure it belongs in the fractal gallery. I only see the flower, bird, and background. I don't see what the others claim to.

If not the fractal gallery, where would I put it? hummingBird4Stripped { ; 2003 by Keith Mackay. ::F+OlFgn2s35WPutOSC43DQ+PY0vuolZRyqI5uwYf5gZBmdHMPML2Xbo2WOtR8txWduc+1vFl 1FSb3Jq7OZSO5UN6HEpsKJVsKKWfFp0yDlzrLX/v/23MZS9q61Vzu5hH3sZ123N5+VHWMxO5 Y9hV73Xt4mJfc1i6HmZ0qJPUt6dPUPTbVTWX+5qDHnZpoEmfoaxq6jzu5/uaV9DT+blzff5n /PA1UteqWps3823087bOdbqqfY3iZrXttq8wk5l7rXtb7sb+fi/gJY4mJ72XOfV9nnha+3e4 dVb2toa2R+cUt9tvZT5+98VZjkmXttu6wsbhCtj8kyTuAO9WVh1QI4sK3kNlvb7MuCvySW3k ytvjvVvF9FGtzFlBfbWVP/hZsMMB3kjvv6jzoC0o1v9NL3dYzjrLPdVX+pVxTGMZ5q1VbL3w as/Rd52FlHWU84yN3MhvYO85Z38346qWf/hd13MZ/dHrLPUPTNVFlx+72v7jsM0TV823Xua9 uHrnZf7bWt94qFVnaMOUu94S+H1qfOUtvqse22dX98Ofd/59vf4+V1/vHK3f8mTnr642PUun Pg97Wtt5yZxKWAN3GFq2fyuDL4y2+yLPU9Pj7eQIz3te3hZ3sYFfzsde1NtVX/5oonve3xqj NCv+hDVHfY36FsCXjJH/pmJVzdd5x9VzrbP/naOUNbfc36VLOdq2u7tvh1MvedyvVts8x11s C5dHKXsirtReH3sbHbR/5qjT4mpyG7vbdTWxNcfamaypLCgcOnGw2qBTb9q2KMhQjN4pK5L4 TWtpnA+CcQ+sfQ/ZozCXj9i3flKNNnhLrPYSrc0+We7gvFwXNNq19lHY1SjuYT5x3H3QcyEn 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Not sure what you mean by focus. If you are trying to identify the subject of the picture then I would say the flower. The hummingbird is simply an adjective to it. If it had been painted in oil would you place it in a gallery called "oils" or in the "nature" gallery? I submit the latter.

I looked under the genre headings. There are many galleries for this piece.

OK, I'll get to the point. I am talking about the fractal gallery vote. I voted for option 2 and images like this are the reason why. The focus of this image is the bird, it's not a fractal. It's nice that the bird was made from fractals but it's still a bird. The image is pure UF as illustrated by the UPR but it would be a stretch for option 1 to allow it in the fractal gallery. That covers option 1 and 2. As far as 3 and 4 go, 3 is too open and 4 is too restrictive. That's why I voted for 2.

Message edited on: 10/23/2004 10:33

Keith, since the hummingbird is clearly made from flames, it would be allowed in the gallery under the current guidelines. Barbara

Thanks for the clarification

Keith, The other "major" digital art software platforms have galleries devoted to the output of those programs. Since there are so many "fractal programs" out there, the "Fractals" gallery would be assumed to encompass the work created using the myriad capabilities of all of the software that calls itself a "fractal generator"? UF has a lot of built in graphic editing capability and your hummingbird image shows off the possibilities of that program VERY nicely, Keith. Same with Apo - there are a lot of different types of flames you can create using the built in or freely submitted script routines, mirroring or just by pushin' the ol' polygons around. With Bryce, there are capabilities for widely varying types of images, too. You could make a landscape with it or a completely different abstract/surreal thing like, say, arraffael, vjera or eres have made. Both those types are the output of the Bryce platform and get posted to that gallery and show the wide variation of images you can create using that program. One wouldn't post a Bryce landscape to the Terragen gallery. It would be "Bryce/Landscape", maybe? If there were separate galleries for "Landscapes" and "Abstracts" and not denoting specific software programs then it would go in "Landscapes", I suppose? Even moreso with the Fractals Gallery - the types of images possible are innumerable. Everything from "traditional" self-similar spiral forms, geometric abstracts, castles, undersea-scapes, space scenes, layered or scripted flames, landscapes and - yes, hummingbirds - are possibilites using the various softwares available to make art with fractals. While holding to ANY of the 4 choices for the guidelines of this gallery, I think your image belongs here because it was made using a program generally considered to be a "fractal program". Though I don't think the gallery should turn away an image that looks fractal if it wasn't made with one of the Windows fractal generators. Not a lot of Mac versions of fractal programs out there and Harmen has done a heckuva job creatinf a fractal "look" with the tools available to him, IMO. If one is creative they can make a fractal-like image with other things, too, and who could tell if they didn't say anything? Or care? I just think it should include both the "pure" fractal types and all the other images, like yours, that show just how varied and rich the creation of fractal art can be using the capabilities of the available programs that we are fortunate to have discovered. Actually, if one selected "Fractal" and "Nature", rather than "Fractal" and "All", your image is in THAT gallery/subgrouping with others that have birds and animals created with fractals so, in a sense, it IS posted in the "right" gallery. BTW - the first thing my eye is drawn to in your image is the white "flower" and then down the "stalk" and then up to the hummingbird. Probably because of the bright white and the bird's colors stand out less from the background. Kind of cool because the bird is a neat, delayed "surprise" as you dwell on the image. Nice touch! The possibilities are endless...resistance is futile...we will be assimilated :?) Rick

Deagol, I voted for option one. I think your work is better suited for a nature oriented gallery.

I fail to see the problem. This image is clearly made of fractals, entirely. The focus is the bird, which is comprised of many flame fractals. If the bird was an imported image of a bird, it would look likely clearly like a photograph (or whatever type of bird image it was). In this case, there might be controversy about where it belonged. As long as the image is made of fractals, however they are combined, and even if the image is made to look like something else, why is there controversy about it? Ken...

As Barbara pointed out- This image "would be allowed in the gallery under the current guidelines." To me, the focus would be the bird...but it ISN'T a photo, 3D object, tube, etc.. It IS fractal, and it belongs :) Further, the first line in the current guidelines states: "Fractal compositions made in any program containing only fractals..." Nick

I dont mind where it goes as long as it stays somewhere that i can gaze at it for hours. This is "FRACTAL" creation at its best... absolutely beautiful

Keith, Sometimes I find you torture yourself with too much scruples. Miche

Nick, I stand corrected. Thanks. Miche, You're probably right about that.

Keith, I agree with Michele (how did you get the little thingie on top of the first "e" in his name??lol). You seem to want to beat yourself up because you think your style isn't "fractal" enough. Judging by the obvious amount of time and effort it took to make this and images like Coral Reef, Death of Deagol and Treebeard, you had a blast making them, were really focused and it's what came straight out of your soul when you made it. To force yourself to create within the so-called boundaries of what someone says is a "fractal" just limits you and the result can appear forced. Images like this are why you are considered one of the best UF fractal artists in the world (at least by me) and hacks like me just follow the trail you blazed, so just let 'er rip and don't worry about it - U Da Man! Rick

Well said Rick!

Rykk, = alt-0232 or you use the standard Character Map where you'll find it. in Unicode -> U+00E8 Miche

Rick, thanks. You're a good friend. I hope I still have a copy of those images someplace. It was quite a coincidence to put the UPR for the bird here and loose the hard drive where all of my fractals are stored the next day. I just copy and paste "Miche". Thanks, Keith

What shall we learn from this? Never paste a UPR into the fractal forum. This was no coincidence... It just isn't supported by Frederik! Better to send your UPRs to your friends regularly... (Just try to smile again...) Andreas

OK I've lurked long enough. This is a fractal image, being composed of fractal elements, the fact that it looks like a bird has taken alot of skill! Whether I like it or not, or think it 'good' or 'bad' is something that is personal to me and really says more about me than it does the image. This is true of art in general whether one likes any image says very little about the image and more about the person/culture/fashion/viewer at that time. Are we trying to define fractal art here? We might as well give up as it cannot be defined ... we all have different subjective opinions and could discuss this for years in ever decreasing circles. I for one love the diversity here at R'osity ... and I appreciate the freedoms we have to post and learn and be inspired in this gallery. I am willing to accept that diversity in order to learn so much more than I would otherwise. As for the hot twenty ... hehehe! Its a game, so follow the rules :-)

I agree with saldegal. You put something like this in with a bunch of nature photos and they'll turn their noses up at it, not recognizing the skill and work that went into it, because most of them would have no clue. Ridiculous.