Interesting note that the Better Busineess Bureau has revoked its "seal of appoval" for Paypal. Per the www.paypalsucks.com 's website and a link to a judges decision relating to a court case. Pete

Didn't Ebay join up with Paypal? Marque

yep, EBay bought PayPal some time ago and who would believe what paypalsucks.com says...it's a bit biased.....where's the evidence?

Ive used paypal for two years to receive my store payments no problems here!! :-).

paypal is going with the American Family Values thing .. and dealing very shabbily with anyone who doesn't adhere to their moral agenda. I've had to change payment options with several publishers I work for since their PayPal accounts were frozen or seized with no warning becasue they dare to sell pictures of naked women (just pinups, not explicit).

Lyrra, what is the alternative ecomerce banking option if your people can't use paypal? cheerio lululee

There are multiple threads at this site and, I think, at PoserPros regarding Poser vendors who have had serious problems with frozen assets because of PayPal's "family values," which apparently do not include fairness, ethics, or tolerance. I cancelled my PayPal account more than a year ago, and a merchant who can only sell through PayPal is, unfortunately, not getting my business. M

lululee well two switched to direct wire transfer or checks, but a couple others use Paystone. In six months or so I've had no trouble with them. Lyrra

I have posted in several of these threads regarding PayPal, warning people if they have ANY dealings what-so-ever with anything that can be even REMOTELY construed as "adult" (partial nakedness, adult themes, etc) to be warned that PayPal can and will freeze accounts...I know a few people whom this happened to...no warning was given prior to this action, and NO reason was given afterwards when they tried to find out why their funds were frozen and inaccessible...the funds remained frozen for 120 days...I was also informed that if you do not specifically request your funds released to you after that timeframe has expired, they will just keep the funds...so, if you forget or it's a small amount and you cant be bothered, it's more $$$$ in their pockets...sounds like highway robbery to me...we stopped using PayPal last year, and as mentioned above, if another vendor or a customer uses strictly PayPal, we have no alternative but to not complete a transaction with them...

Aureeanna, sure it's a bit biased...and I'm sure PayPal are a bit biased on their end too...go ahead, use them if you dont want to believe what you're hearing, although apparently BBB believes it since they dont take revoking their seal of approval lightly...dont say you didn't have adequate warning though! lol

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 09:10

But there must be an alternative for PayPal? We have the Internet and what's the problem to create a new account at a new Ecommerce Bank... if there's a second one??? Has anyone an idea? Or experiences with another ebank system?

I'm also looking at Paystone Lyrra, thanks for the heads-up. Marque

Thank you very much Blonderella, I have been using PayPal since it's inception. I have never had a problem with them....:>)

Aureeanna, BBB yanked the seal from paypal for misrepresentation and a VERY large pile of unsetteled complaints, paypal has an 'unsatasfactory' listing with the BBB. "...where's the evidence? " I got mine right from BBB itself when I first read about paypal's actions against PhilC. I went and looked around and found they are acting like nine ton gorrilas when it comes to the way they see what's 'offensive' and what's not

actually - i had a friend who used it as a customer. someone broke into her account due to issues with her social security number which were not at all under her control. frankly, their system left a bit to be desired (they have email notification of changes but allow one of the changes to be email address, or did), but largely, the offense was not the issue. they handled it horribly, treated her badly, and she just lost the money even after patiently explaining the problem to various people over an extended period of time. so they're not just bad to merchants. i haven't personally had a problem with them either. but i haven't personally ever been bitten by a pitbull. that doesn't mean they don't bite. rest assured, that if you do have a problem with them, it won't go well. or at least, the odds are very much against it.

I also have never had problem with paypal. Just like anywhere online you wanna use it ou have to follow their TOS's and Policies. It's just like here you wanna be a member of renderosity you have to follow the workings of the site or be banned.

Paystone looks to be a Paypal clone, but withoutt the international options of Paypal. Pity too, as it makes it completely useless for me :/ I use PayPal for my -as yet unopened- store and I'd be happy to offer up as many alternatives as possible. Hopefully more online money solutions will get with the program and realise the internet is a 'global' community, not just an American one.

Haha, yeah, paypal is the most gigantic rip-off I've ever encountered. I've had an account with them for many years, they keep charging $1 every year, but I've never been able to use it because their internal system has something messed up with my credit card number. It won't let me update, nor activate. Support doesn't answer. Nor fix anything. Fortunately, in Switzerland, we're protected well through our credit card laws, I intend to have Visa charge them back for the 4 x $1. Including interest. :-)

I'm sorry but I don't choose to have Paypal be the Moral Authority in my life, or my purchases. I will not work with them in any way. My bank doesn't pry into my business, nor did they care when my paycheck came from working in a porn store. I'm fairly sure if I went down to the local porn store I could use my debit card or even write a check to purchase items there without my bank complaining.(supposing the store allowed checks which is a completely different matter.)

.

Paypal has already got a Class Action judgement against them soooo...

~ never use it because i'm an adult ~ i need no poppa-ypals ~ paypal is painpal ~

Paystone's largest issue is thei lack of international options -- they are useful only in the US and Canada. They are, however, backed by large banks. There are a great many alternatives. A single google on micropayments will give you plenty of options. However, none -- not one -- has the worldwide acceptance of the evil empire that paypal has become. Paypal has over 30 million active accounts. Paystone only recently got a million (I know -- I started talking about paystone, um, 12(?) months ago. Along with several others. Search the product showcase and merchant forums for my posts and you'll see). The single biggest problem is getting folks to switch. Doesn't matter what to -- just get them to do it. And then let folks know what you use. If someone comes to me and asks for a payment method, I promise you I will do everything I can to add it in to the store(s) I run. And Xena -- can we talk? Um, seriously? as in, via email...

Hm, I'm an adult too you know. I use paypal because I choose not to pay with credit. If I can't pay cash for something, I don't need it that badly. (And esentially, payment options such as PayPal are cash. It's drawn from my checking account.)

" Hm, I'm an adult too you know. I use paypal because I choose not to pay with credit. If I can't pay cash for something, I don't need it that badly. (And esentially, payment options such as PayPal are cash. It's drawn from my checking account.)" Get yourself a debit card then. If you have a checking account, you should have one anyway. You use it just like a credit card, the only difference is that the cash is taken directly from your checking account. But it's accepted anywhere and everywhere credit cards are.

It's just like here you wanna be a member of renderosity you have to follow the workings of the site or be banned. Not exactly. PayPal is acting as a financial institution. They've structured their system so that, as a merchant, they can fine you if you fall into certain categories... Categories that they define and change without notice. In the case of digital arts, specifically, if you use PayPal as your payment gateway, and they decide that what you are selling is "adult" (a term which they leave undefined but which, as precedent has shown, has been applied arbitrarily), then you can and will be fined within their limits. This is why we aren't considering PayPal as a gateway at all. While many gateways restrict services based on moral conditions (most of which have clearly spelt out terms), none of them fine you for violation. Revocation of service providance is the only legal penalty for violating the terms of service, except in cases that may result in prosecution by the authorities of your locality. Luckily, we are all RTFTOS type A people, so we'll be avoiding PayPal, lest they decide to fine us for hosting pictures of naked Vicky. ;)

I second the debit card idea. You get the convenience of a credit card without the hassles of using paper checks. I just looked over some parts of PayPal's latest user agreement. Softriver's right. They reserve the right to "fine" merchants $500 USD or more for receiving payments for "Mature" category products, which they can define as pretty much anything they want. Apparently, they view these products/services in the same light as illegal gambling or selling heroin. I've never had any problems with PayPal's service. They've been a great boon for commerce on the internet and it's a shame that they've adopted these ridiculous policies. I don't know whether this has been an internal issue with them or if they've been pressured by some outside group or entity. Other reports and incidents I'm aware of lead me to believe that it's part of a larger movement. Whatever the reasons, I've become less and less happy with PayPal's business practices, no matter how convenient or useful they are. At this point, I've pretty well decided to close my account with them and let them know why. I would strongly encourage anyone else who is concerned about the way thing are going to do the same. Alternative payment mechanisms will not grow unless people use them. I realize that not using PayPal creates varying degrees of difficulty for people but the alternative is to simply support their actions with your money. That I will not do.

I just had a look at their german TOS and they are really trying to impose their freaking prudish POV of adult on us too. Interesting. But anyway, I am sure the first time they try to freeze a german account based on their stupid TOS they will get a good beating from the consumer protection.

" I realize that not using PayPal creates varying degrees of difficulty for people but the alternative is to simply support their actions with your money. "
Agreed, but there is no alternative when you are not in the USA. Over here there is only PayPal or CreditCard. As a merchant I would have to switch my monthly payment from PayPal to check. That takes sometime to arrive plus costs me a huge fee at my bank for transferring Dollars to Euro. I still loose some money when I transfer the money from my PayPal account to my bank account because their exchange rate is slightly different from the actual exchange rate (last time it was a difference of about $6) but the transfer is free (when you do not take the profite into account they make with their freaking exchange rate) and I don't have to pay a bank fee on top of it because the money arrives in Euro in my account.

1. paypal is not useful if you do not have a credit card and do not live in the us. and, they do not listen to customers at all, or potential customers. they refused to accept the branch number for my account, said I didn't have the right number. my response: after 20 years I think I know what the bloody branch number is for my account. after working in canadian bank I think I know what I'm talking about with my banking information. pull your heads out of your butts and listen to people. never will use paypal. never will carry a credit card. ( deficit budjeting is bad for me as well as government ) 2) debit cards are useless online. ( at least my canadian debit card is, for an account that is 20 years old ) guess international money orders is my only option for buying something. and if I have to go buy one of them and pay postage to get it submitted, guess I'll deal with merchant directly. ( haven't done so, but haven't bought anything online either. )

The entire situation is bizarre. EBay still auctions off porn but you can't use their subsidiary, PayPal to purchase it. I hope one of these class actions will go far enough to shed some light on the inner workings of these folks. It really does seem like there is a HUGE opportunity here for someone to set up an international payments system. Where are the Swiss bankers when you need them? Of course as soon as it became apparent that you could use it to pay for - shudder - "adult" products, they'd suddenly be discovered to be funneling money to terrorists and banned from the US.

" Of course as soon as it became apparent that you could use it to pay for - shudder - "adult" products, they'd suddenly be discovered to be funneling money to terrorists and banned from the US." I doubt it. The US is the #1 producer and consumer of pornography worldwide, and the industry accounts for roughly 14 billion dollars per year. As long as there's money in porn, it will always have a home in the U.S. (whether the electorate like it or not). Besides, allowing porn to exist gives a lot of angry people something to shout about, and there's nothing more beneficial for politicians than lots of angry people to sympathize with. ;)

allowing porn to exist gives a lot of angry people >> something to shout about, and there's nothing more >> beneficial for politicians than lots of angry people >> to sympathize with. ;) Oh gee willikers, you don't suppose this is somehow related to the fact that the globe's self-appointed peacemakers (bless 'em, and their benign WMDs) account for around 70% of international arms sales? :) M

Ordinarily, softriver, I'd agree with you and I still do to an extent but we're really through the looking glass these days. I'd say we're not in Kansas but ironically, the idea is to turn the whole country pretty much into Kansas. I expect teaching evolution to be outlawed any day now, or at least after the jihadi purge of the Supreme Court. It may be paranoia but I suspect what is going on here is an attempt to use commerce to do what CDA, COPA, et al failed to do through legislation. You can have all the smutty naked Vickys in the world available but if people can't find a way to pay for them... As for the financial clout of the porn industry, they've been conspicuously MIA most of the time--too busy snorting coke and screwing teenage runaways I suspect. Groups like the ACLU and the American Library Association seem to have done most of the fighting on the censorship front of the culture wars. The majority of the electorate has been silent as well. No one wants to be seen defending "feelthy pictures." Clarence Thomas certainly forgot his love for Long Dong Silver's exploits once he got in the public eye. At least, we'll have company. The leaders in places like China and Saudi Arabia are just as keen on "moral values" as our lot. Like our former good buddies Saddam, Noriega, etc. they're all good as long as we're fighting a common "enemy."

We are missing the obvious: 1. Most porn is terrible. 2. Terrorism is terrible. Therefore, porn is terrorism. If we have a war on porn, will the death toll for American GI's be worse? M

We are missing the obvious: 1. Most porn is terrible. 2. Terrorism is terrible. Therefore, porn is terrorism. If we have a war on porn, will the death toll for American GI's be worse? M

Don't worry. I've heard that PayPal is going to contract out the search for evildoers to Afghan warlords.

Heh. Good points, both of you. I've been trying to stay as far away from politics as possibly since the election, though. I'm afraid that I'm still a bit too shell-shocked by the last four years to keep up anymore... My current modus operandi is to put myself in the best position possible, and if things go to far, try to find affordable housing in Ontario. I know it seems ludicrous to a lot of people (mostly those dwelling in the comfort level of the middle class) that rational Americans are seriously considering immigration to other locales (New Zealand is pretty nice, if a bit underdeveloped still), but being educated doesn't predispose me to passionlessness. So far the only thing keeping me in the States is that I can't find a good payment gateway for overseas, and I absolutely refuse to use PayPal. grin

(Wasn't it clever how I brought that whole tirade right back to being on topic?) =D

Man, can't believe all of the misconceptions here about PayPal..... Let me just pick one: "paypal is not useful if you do not have a credit card and do not live in the us." You're clearly very very misinformed... I do not live in the us and use paypal very often and it even links directly to my checking account, no credit card needed at all. As for the new rules of PayPal, I don't have a problem that they're inforcing these new rules. Finally some big company has the guts to speak out against all of this junk there's around.

Finally some big company has the guts to speak out against all of this junk there's around.

Should I be offended that "all this junk" apparently pertains to practically all of the content that digital arts communities host?

If you threw a rock from Renderosity to PoserPros, it would probably pass over multiple sites in between that have suffered having their accounts revoked for PayPal's liberal and wreckless abuse of their Terms of Service.

Beyond that, PayPal is looking down the barrel of a number of class-action lawsuits filed against them for their policy abuses and illegal actions.

If that strikes you as somehow honorable or admirable, then I will respect your beliefs, politely agree to disagree, and go my own way.

But it is trite and dismissive to claim that other people's views have no bearing simply because you have not shared their experiences.

Cheers,
softriver

How do those online casinos accept and pay out money? They went through this with PayPal and credit cards years ago. Because online gambling is illegal in the U.S., the credit card companies as well as PayPal were pressured to cut off the online casinos. (This was driven more by brick and mortar casinos and state lotteries than by morals, I suspect.) But judging from my spam filter, the online casinos are still going strong. So they must have found a way to continue doing business without PayPal, MasterCard, or Visa.

Personally, I am offended by some of the outright porn that passes for art these days. That being said, I don't think it is within a financial institutions rights to be the arbiter of my morals. I am an adult, and I can choose whether or not to purchase (or even look at) something that's pornographic. I mean, Vicki is a cartoon for all intents and purposes. Do they (PayPal) really think that I'm buying these products to get my jollies?

i'm adult means: i'm over 18/21 ~ i earn my money ~ i buy things for this money ~ legal goods ~ if a company try to censoring me for what i can buy or not it is a criminal act to me!!!!! ~ wherever i live ~ whenever i live ~ ~ perhaps paypal should change their name in + Stalmaohitler-economy-extremists-dictatorship (s.e.e.d.) ~ in this case the seed of the evil ~ or seedy + my opinion!

"if a company try to censoring me for what i can buy or not it is a criminal act to me!!!!!"

Err, it's actually not a criminal act. PayPal's "no nudes" policy, dumb as it may be, is perfectly legal. Renderosity has the right to refuse their services, after all.

/P

Message edited on: 11/17/2004 12:30

i know it's legal in the rules of actually law & order Penguinisto ;-) ~ but to me it's a criminal act nevertheless ~ all dictators in their own lands were perfectly legal... till they overthrow ~

but to me it's a criminal act nevertheless Not if they expressly state it in the users' agreement beforehand. I closed my Paypal account long ago, and I will not sign up again. I would suspect they have all this in the "document that no one ever reads before they push agree." I didn't read it either. :-P

I opened up a Paypal account a couple of years ago -- specifically for use on eBay.

I've also used the PP account a few times for purchases on websites that aren't set up for CC transactions.

I have never linked my PP account to a bank account. As a result, I retain an "unverified" status. My remaining PP balance has gotten low.

I am not using PP very much these days, so the limited balance isn't something that concerns me.

If I ever were to give PP any banking information, the information would link to a separate account created specifically for use with Paypal. I would only keep the minimum balance in the bank account necessary for the account to remain open. I would never keep anything extra in such a "PP bank account".

A couple of years ago, I noted that many sellers on eBay would not accept PP for payments.

And yet now it is the 'preferred' method of payment on eBay. Funny how things change :)

Whatever your feelings about "junk," PayPal paints with a very broad and arbitrary brush. Crime scene photos are forbidden but "War documentaries or documentary photos portraying victims of war or violence" are OK. The mind boggles at the possibilities. Are the Abu Gahrib photos alright or are they forbidden because of sex or possibly violence? Can I sell Iraq hostage execution videos? What's the criteria, violence, politics, good taste? You can't sell hate literature butdoes that include various religious texts that exhort their followers to smite their enemies? Only the rulers of PayPalestine know the answers and they'll probably freeze your money and tell you about it afterwards. They can run their business any way they want but an increasing number of people seem to be finding that dancing to their tune isn't worth paying the piper. When you've pissed off the Better Business Bureau, pornophiles and the neo-Nazis you must be doing something seriously messed up.

Ah, freedom in America. Gotta love it. 8-)

Ah, PayPal is small potatoes. I just found out I missed another exciting NFL match-up as ABC assaulted public decency with naked women jumping on football players. We may just have to nationalize all the TV networks. Strangely I wonder if the flap would have been quite as intense if the woman hadn't been of the Caucasian persuasion and said player a dusky son of Africa? Nah, surely not, this is the 21st century after all.