Which would get into the most trouble? Daz (the publisher), the creator, or the person who unknowingly uses the item? It would make sense that the other two would be in more trouble than the user. Though I dont know how it works legally =/.

compiler.. not arguing the point mind you but do the clothes make the character or does the whole character hair, accessories, sword, whatever and clothing make the character? I am not sure any of us have the answers we are looking for on this. A lawyer would but amazingly enough.. i haven't found one in this community lol

@Stormrage : I cannot answer on a lawyer point of view, just as an end user "artist" and as a physician. 1- The notoriety of the character comes into play. The African Queen is a classic, whereas this recent film about a werewolf huntress is known to few. Tauru once made a cute japanese school uniform that I have used in a couple of pics until someone pointed to me that it was Evangelion's Rey Ayanami's school outfit. I knew about the plugsuits from this OAV (Tauru had made them for Poser), but never had heard about the school outfit. In this case, it was the green colour that gave it away. 2- The completeness of the outfit. The Celeste clothes I used are composed of a corselet, pants, shoes, long cloak, and 2 pistols. When I used all these in a single pic, the guy who had ordered the pic told me "hey! it's (insert name here, I just cannot remember), why did you cut her hair ? By the way, I had asked for an original work, not a copycat...". You get the idea. 3- As a physician, it would be a little long to get into how the human mind recognises items, and the circuits involved from the visual perception, to the recognition, to the reminiscences of linked memories. For our topic it's enough to say that when we perceive an image, the brain tries to recognise it. If it is not stored exactly "as is" in our memory, the brain looks for similar memories, checks in what contexts these memories were stored, and tries to see which one matches the current context. It does thus for as many significant points he sees, and then makes a decision. The more "check points" that are matching, the closer the association.

Maybe the people in the copyright forum would know a bit more about this. Does R'osity have designated legal experts when issues like this are presented? It might be good for future posts if there was an official designee who could accurately advise on all this legal stuff... Just a thought.

By the way : I just checked Daz' forum for Aiko3. They seem to have a "cat girl" in preparation. http://forum.daz3d.com/postimages/origimage_1_124961.jpg Beware : she's a copycat (sorry, I can't resist bad puns...) for Felicia, a character in Darkstalker, a capcom game. http://www.stuart.iit.edu/students/adamadr/images/darkstal/felicia.htm You've been warned...

Attached Link: http://www.intelproplaw.com/

Wow! Great link! Could you post to the copyright forum, too, please? Hm, maybe we should have a place to put useful things like this.

I'd like to step in here as just an off again/on again Poser user and developer. Intellectual property rights shouldn't be violated, no matter how well meaning. You can have a character be inspired by another, sure, but to swipe a character design (and it's not just clothes in this issue, her hair, face, sword, etc. are similar) in such a way that it's clearly the case is just wrong. You can quibble about this texture or that texture but point of fact is, the overall character design, stance, and features are just too close. I have a line of characters coming out that are in the vein of Final Fantasy but none, not one of them, looks as plainly derived from a Final Fantasy character as this. Granted, I have the benifit of drawing/design experience under my belt and a vast array of previous, original designs to draw from but still...wrong is wrong. I'm surprised anyone had to even ask about this. It's one thing to provide it free and give credit, but to try and sell it and pass it off as original in anyway, is really unacceptable. I'd hate to see my designs or chracters being ripped, given a change of skin, and re=sold by someone who liked my work enough to copy it but not enough to respect my rights or the time it took me to create it. Someone will notify Square-Enix, and Daz will have to re-think the model or be sued, I'm certain.

Compiler: Excuse me, but if big hair on a cat automatically makes her a copy of something than that is completely absurd. Cats have certain things in common, paws, ears, tails and claws. Anime in general has a certain style. So, if you're saying that because we put paws, claws, a tail and big hair on an anime character that that is copying a character that already exits, that's just ridiculous. I had to look this character up of which you speak. They're not even the same coloring, nor is the hair the same or even the design of the boots and gloves. Just about any cat like costume is probably going to end up being similar to something that's been done before, because of the tell tale features that actually make it a cat costume. When I look at the costume we've put together, I do not see this bright blue haired Felicia character and I feel it would take some fair amount of modifying to create her from it. I like our kitty design better, personally.
(editted for spelling)

Message edited on: 11/27/2004 17:01

Its so cruel! I love both Final Fantasy and Daz's works... Has anyone contacted Square-Enix?

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34854&start=20

Thanks to those of you who sent me messages about this thread. Forgive me for dropping in late and not taking the time to read the entire thing. I have already had the gist of it several times in the mail and elsewhere

First of all I DID NOT copy the FF design, the outfit may be similar the outfit design was influenced by the very cool FF outfit BUT IT IS NOT THE SAME. I regret now ONLY ONE THING and that is that I intentionally textured the outfit to make people think of the FF outfit. It was a marketing decision, and as it turned not a good one.

I cannot decide whether to be flattered that my presentaion was (if misguided) so effective to have caused such a ruckus or insulted to think that people believe me so completely devoid of integrity and talent (not to mention intelligence) that I have no recourse but to rip off someone elses material

Daz and I and have discussed the issue and made changes to the outfit based on this discussion. I do not believe that I have violated anyone's copyright the outfit IS different. Daz apparantly agrees with me and the changes that are being made now are a direct response to the community.

So yes they are listening, yes we are doing something about it.

..

and now is when every modeler is thrown to the wolves for creating "similar design" Felicia and catgirl (aside from regular catlike features Which are normal for any cat. (who's going to sue them btw for looking like felicia) ) are nothing alike at all. Truthfully guys this is why i am really against any discussions like these. Instead of facts people start bring up "others" who have done this thing too and how wrong it is. they drag the innocents into it cast doubts on them and DO NOTHING after it's been made. If square-enix has a problem with it it should be them not one of us to come in and say hell no. Not the community guessing. If you think you will have problems with the outfit that's your choice. I rarely use an outfit as it is presented. I use the pieces to create my own look. So before this gets any more heated and any more harmful to the merchants why not let square enix and Daz deal with the issues? It's them who have to anyway.

I don't think there's any real double standard here. Literally copying someone else's mesh or texture is not the same thing as creating a product that's similar to something else. As several people have noted, it's very common to copy trademarked and copyrighted items, and just file the serial numbers off. A plastic toy gun that looks very like a Star Trek phaser, but is sold as "Laser pistol." The K-Mart versions of Paris haute couture. Etc.

From what I've seen, making a Poser product similar to another product is acceptable, too. For example, Jepe created a body hair kit for M3 that was very similar to the one Ernyoka made. There was reason to believe that he copied her, because she had posted WIPs. He even used her promo text. While he was forced to change his advertising copy, he was not forced to change the product. Similarly, Wyrm closed his store for awhile because people were copying his magnet system and undercutting his prices. IMO, this item falls in the same category.

That said, I'd be kind of bummed if I bought it, not realizing that its inspiration was widely known. But I suppose if that's a problem, I should make my own damn clothes.

If one reads the DAZ TOS, it is a violation to discuss possible copyright infringement in their forums. DAZ advises people use the proper legal channels to pursue such matters. I've read countless copyright infringement threads in Poser communities, and can't help wonder how many participants are lawyers? How many people have used the legal system to pursue such matters? How many times have we become excited about some potential copyright infringements, only to be told by the site involved that some settlement has been reached, and the terms will not be divulged? People, it's too easy to be wrong when you think you see a violation. It's too easy to ruin an artist's reputation, cause an artist to lose their Internet Connections, etc. If you're not a cop, don't take the law into your own hands. If you're not a lawyer, don't pass out your legal opinions. One of these days, the accusers or lynch mob are liable to get into more trouble than their victims.

You're right all parties involved should have been notified of the problem. I for one, contacted Square as soon as I saw the model and was in the process of hunting the model maker down when fcoffill came on and responded. While it is regretable that this was such a public inquiry, I'm happy to see that fcoffill and Daz recognized there was an issue and has stated that there are changes in the works for the model in question. Having said that, I stand by my opinion of the situation and while I share no ill will toward fcoffill, I will once again stress the need to protect one's intelectual material. It's a very touchy issue for the internet as a whole and it's better to play it safe than take risk without reason.

She went throught the right channels guys I have contacted Daz and the person I talked to seemed unconcerned about the copyright violation, but I don't know if I find it more disturbing that they don't seem to care or that people are applauding them for doing it in the first place knowing not only the exact character it is supposed to be but knowing also that the character has a copyright associated with it. The product is a DAZ original, they bought it and own the rights on the product. I stand by my statement that if something is made to be something else, I want to know so I can make an informed buying decision. No lynch mob, just a request as a customer. From the sounds of this thread there are many others that wish the same.

Yes, it would appear that way. Something for all to think of in the future. However, this particular matter seems to be working itself out, as both the merchant and Daz will be attempting to alter the model so it no longer resembles Paine as much as it does currently. We can only hope in the future such changes won't be needed but that is the future and right now, it's up in the air. I think we can let this go and see how things proceed. Should any other doubts be raised, we'll have to promise ourselves to contact ALL parties invloved before moving to public forums.

Where is the line drawn? Why is it that when DAZ does this you are all up in arms? Daz is the devil you people love to persecute. And yet the following items are found here Louis from Interview with a Vampire http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=26191 Lara Croft from Tomb Raider http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=32176 Where is the line drawn where it is fine for one site, but causes an uproar when on Daz? Frankly I think it is totally hypocritical the way people are acting about this.

"Why is it that when DAZ does this you are all up in arms? Daz is the devil you people love to persecute." The bigger the company, the more we insist they get things right and the more we castigate them for their wrongdoings. Now, about Micro$oft...pass me a pitchfork eh? ;)

The difference is the person who is wronged. While I don't care to see blatant ripoffs of other's properties, such as Lara Croft or Anne Rice's characters, it's not my place to complain, because they're not mine. The personal experience I brought up about DAZ, however, DID involve my own product... therein lies the difference. If others want to "watchdog" DAZ and alert them to copyright infringement on properties that don't belong to them, that's their choice, but not one I would personally make. So don't paint everyone who complains about DAZ with the same brush, please.

I deleted my last comment after reading what Francis had to say over at Poser Pros.

Ooh, sexy Satan! For David, I presume?

As sole copyright holder of the Satans-R-Us logo, I resent your misuse of The Devil in this context. My people will be talking to your people pdxjims, and remember we got ALL the best lawyers on our side. ~rotflmao~ I apologise if this post detracts from the seriousness of this thread, but in mitigation I'd like to cite the "Devil made me do it" defense.

what are the differences between a game model/character and a poser model/character? poly count. games use low poly models and highly detailed textures. poser uses higher poly models with significant detailing in the models. then adds with more detailing in the texture. but the face in a poser texture is far less detailed than in a game texture. so if the item in question is aimed at high poly models, it is lacking in the details which would be required for duplication of a game character. paint the entire game character, facial features and all onto a texture map. then you have duplicated the game character. if parts are on different models you have a significant difference. renders: would not suggest using commercially a render of a character that really looks like a game character, intentionally or not. a render is a 2d image with no way to prove you were not looking to duplicate the game character. for non commercial work there is less chance of the game company taking offense. should the person creating include inspired by? imho: yes. then prospective buyers have the knowledge we need to make a decision on how the product suits our individual needs. I don't actually play any games, so I would never be making anything inspired by a game. I also do not watch much tv or movies.

I don't knowhow this kind of stuff works. I do remember a new figure that was released. I was reading the news letter and my niece said she had that. I thought that a little strange, she was only 10, didn't know anything about Poser. I told her she must be mistaken and clicked over to Daz. A couple of minutes later, my niece comes back with her Brats doll. I took her to a movie to make up for telling her she was wrong. So where is the line and who draws it.

In any copyright case. It's not up to the community to decide guys. This issue is truly between daz and Square-Enix No one else. The line is your own. do you buy it? or don't you. That's the only decision you can make. The only line you can draw. Sorry but it's true

We shouldn't even be reading about this stuff till it's all been decided or dealt with legally. And the only reason we'd hear about it then would be if the items in question were sold, and we were supposed to receive a remedy.

Tilandra, your case is different from the one being discussed here. I am talking about this train wreck of a thread that has been posted on more than one site. Yes, it was wrong for what they did.

Yet, What was done here, is equally wrong. Just because DAZ owns the item, it is still a work of Frances' (Fcofill). It still reflect on her integrity because she is the one that created the piece. The fact remains, It's her reputation effected... No one elses...

My point in this whole mess is the fact that you (Generic) will go after DAZ (and don't hand me the line that they are bigger... That's a big bunch of Horse pucky...) but you will allow Rendorsity and RDNA to do the SAME exact thing.

Sorry, you cannot give me a legitmate reason for this whole one-sided mess.

RDNA released a set of clothing that is based on Van Helsing (Not to mention a set for Farscape.) Here you have Louis, Lara Croft and assorted other celebrity morphs and items. Yet no one complained there. We have Qylan hair at Poser Pros... Anyone remember Final Fantasy 8... Quistis' hair style. We have the Gen daughter Freebie... Rinoa's outfit.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

Message edited on: 11/27/2004 23:22

LOL. I did buy it. Oh and I bought the pro pack too. I never thought about the game connection. When I was doing the band thing in the 80's, they all dressed like that in the clubs.

First, it's not a DAZ problem, but a generic problem, which can occur in any store (as has been pointed out above). Second, it's not a copyright problem. Copyrights problems are settled by copyright owners with the possible assistance of lawyers. It's just a marketting problem. As Stormrage so acutely puts it : "The line is your own. do you buy it? or don't you. That's the only decision you can make." But, to make a decision, you have to be informed. Or else, you have been mislead, deliberately or not. From what he posted above, it seems the author of the Aiko's outfit was well aware of similarities between his design and the FF character. He and DAZ chose to post a pic that stressed this similarity. It's their choice and I don't see any reason to complain (unless you personally hold the copyright to FF character design that is). But since they were aware of this similarity, I feel they should have put a caveat somewhere in the promo page about possible similarities between the 2. Is that so hard to do ? Of course, it depends on what can be called "similar". When I saw the cat girl in the WIP images, I immediately thought "Hey, it's Felicia !" because I have never seen any other character looking like this, and that the 2 look really similar to me (although I should have not used the term "copycat", which is not quite appropriate here). On the other hand, the authors say they wanted to make a completely different character and that the two don't look at all the same to them, and I don't see any reason to distrust them. But posting links to images of both allows readers of this thread to make their own opinion and decisions. It's all allowing customers to make informed decisions, it's all about customer's respect.

It's only informed if customers are familiar with the originals. I don't play computer games (call me boring, I just call me too busy) so I was totally unaware of any connection or possible copyright issues when I bought it. My concern is this - am I liable for any possible lawsuits by publishing renders made using this outfit on my websites - regardless of whether any reference is made to FF? What if this thread hadn't been posted, or, in my case, pointed out to me by a friend who has 'a poster on my wall wearing the same outfit'. I wouldn't have known.

The clothing is dissimilar enough to allow for no violations Pete

Wanna save yourself from copyright/trademark violations. Create your own textures and or models. Its as simple as that. In the pro world you pretty much would never buy and object and use its supplied textures unless it was a generic object anyway. Such as an old boat. A couch, or a chainsaw. Thats a general rule. I mean how many of you pros use Mike or Victoria and use them strictly as they are. No morphs in otherwords. I havent seen a single add that uses Mike or Victoria that looks like thier default selfs Pete Janak

Hmm, I think I'll creat and market a character named Drive Safely Racer

Hmmmmmmmmm - humour an Englishgirl - what are ""Bongs"" ??? And what are they for?? I'm so curious, I've lost 8 lives already!

Bongs are water pipes used to smoke narcotic substances.

Well thank you kind person :) That explains why I didn't know cuz I'm so sweet and innocent ;~)

sigh

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/wiki/PublicWiki/CopyrightsAndEthics

A sigh...isn't that a cutting tool with a long handle that the Grimm Reaper carries? :OP

My worry is being taken to court because of questionable copy rights. Even for the innocent, court/lawyers cost money, not counting jobs lost because of 'copyrights' questions.

Thanks for the link, Penguinisto. Have saved a copy for reference, I really think we should have a list of useful URLs for copyright information. That way anyone with a question can just look it up.

ya know, P, there are days when I just, well, I wanna cry. And I think that's because I just can't get up and slap people around. Damn holidays tapped me. You know damn well I'm dyin to correct, what, 42 horrific errors in the statments above. And this isn't the only thread of late dealing with this same issue. But I just don't have the mental energy today to write the eight or nine pages that are gonna be needed, lol. (Ok, yeah, with me writing them it's 20 or 21, but still...) and Philywebrider -- no, what you're thinking of is the snarky sigh. It's a special form of verbal scythery...

I guess I'll say 'sigh-a- nara' ;OP

lol

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?&Form.ShowMessage=2022984 mmm, could there be a relation between this thread and what is said here ?