Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2045682

I ask that you please give equal treatment to the other forums at this site when it comes to "reflecting community spirit."

Please take a look at the thread at the attached link, and tell me if that thread does anything to benefit this community.

If you can honestly say that the thread in question is any less "disruptive" as the threads in the Den (where they were expected), then I might agree with your decision to close the Den.

If you DO feel that the thread is disruptive to the community, then please take the same action that you did in the threads in the Den.

It's for the "community" after all.

Message edited on: 12/16/2004 12:39

Dear ArtyMotion,

My apologies, but I am not sure I fully understand what it is you want.

Do you want us to stop people from expressing their opinions regarding matters relating to holiday activities that are relative to the programs and products they use?

While I may or may not agree with the opinions posted, I for one am not inclinded to pull a thread of this nature as it was someone's observations and opinions on a giveaway.

Obviously not everyone agrees. That is to be expected. But, it is related to the topic at hand...art.

If any TOS violations occur, it will be taken care of, just like it is in all the other forums. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Best regards,
Lillian

Message edited on: 12/16/2004 13:39

My point is, Lillian, that the post causes dissention, whether or not it is related to art. It affects the overall feeling of community, whether or not it is related to art. It affects people's feelings, whether or not it is related to art. It is disrespectful to the feelings of others, whether or not it is related to art. You can justify the dessention because it relates to art? Sorry, but I saw threads in the Den locked for much less dissention.

To clarify more ...

In Spikes announcement, he said the reasons for the Den closing were because it created dissention in the community, and required too many resources to maintain.

If dissention was the issue, then it is only fair that Renderosity curbs dissention THROUGHOUT the site. Not only "the forums that don't pertain to art."

If resources are the issue, then one would assume that the Poser forum requires MORE resources, because the number of posts that have to be monitored are a mountain compared to the Den's molehill.

Instead, what you SHOULD have said was "We are closing the Den because it doesn't relate to art." Plain and simple.

On the other hand, the "Think twice, post once" rule that was applied in the Den should ALSO apply to every single forum on this site, as well as the galleries.

Message edited on: 12/16/2004 14:51

LOL I'd also like to request a spell checker. dissention and dessention are dissension.

I'm personally rather fond of dementia. Dissension has too many letters.

LOL!! Thank you, Bobasaur. After reading the thread pointed here my heart was breaking, your post made me laugh.

Dear ArtyMotion,

My apologies, I think there might possibly be a bit of misunderstanding around the reasons the Den was closed. I hope this will clarify things.

The team determined that the time and resources necessary to moderate a forum like the Den would be better spent assisting members with questions directly related to digital art.

"This change supports our mission to create a thriving, productive environment that encourages an atmosphere of community, respect, collaboration, and growth for graphic artists of all backgrounds.

As an art community, our primary focus and goal is to help other artists with art."

I do agree with you, that the "Think twice, post once" rule that was applied in the Den should ALSO apply to every single forum on this site, as well as the galleries. Yes, that indeed is something that everyone should keep in mind when posting.

Again, I really appreciate you sharing your concerns and making suggestions. Working together as a community we all have a part in making this a really great place to be.

Best wishes,
Lillian

And, since Spike failed to comment before the Den was closed, just how does the Gaming Forum assist "members with questions directly related to digital art" or "help other artists with art"? Or is this yet another selective application of the standards that R'osity's become infamous for?

Daz, Anitotions, Renderotica, Poser Pros, 3D Commune, 3D Arena, ... ... ... long list of sites to be at if you really don't like the way this one is run. no-one forces you to come here.

I'm sure there are 1000s of political forums on the net. Why not find them?

Message edited on: 12/16/2004 20:46

S.S.D.D

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Dear CyberStretch,

You asked: just how does the Gaming Forum assist "members with questions directly related to digital art" or "help other artists with art"?

A lot of artists participate in the creation and enjoyment of games. There have been several games that use products purchased right here at Renderosity.

We believe that gaming is a relevant topic to graphic artists that participate in their creation and/or enjoy playing these games. This forum gives them an area to explore this creative sector.

Best wishes,
Lillian

Message edited on: 12/17/2004 09:49

"I'm sure there are 1000s of political forums on the net. Why not find them?"

That's not the point. It's more about discussing these things here with the people you already know from this community.

It brings the community together more than you'll know.

Very confusing..???

The team determined that the time and resources necessary to moderate a forum like the Den would be better spent assisting members with questions directly related to digital art. "This change supports our mission to create a thriving, productive environment that encourages an atmosphere of community, respect, collaboration, and growth for graphic artists of all backgrounds. As an art community, our primary focus and goal is to help other artists with art." OH! So THATS what that blasted 'Rendo Cam' in Clints office is for... And even tho 'creating games' could be seen {in the far off distance} as an 'art form'...playing/enjoying said games is wayyyyy off the mark.

I'm still very confused with all this..

"A lot of artists participate in the creation and enjoyment of games. There have been several games that use products purchased right here at Renderosity. We believe that gaming is a relevant topic to graphic artists that participate in their creation and/or enjoy playing these games. This forum gives them an area to explore this creative sector." A lot of artists create artwork that is either directly or indirectly inspired by the political and social climate of the time. Picasso's "Guernica" comes to mind, as well as plenty of works that have even been posted here on Renderosity. We (former denizens of the den) believe that political and social discussion is relevant to the artists who are inspired by such things/or enjoy participatin in discussions of this nature, and wish we still had a forum to explore that creative sector... LornaW: I think the point that's being made is that the gaming forum has about as much to do with art as the Den, or the old OT forum (or the Tavern, or the C&D forum) and uses up about as much time and resources, and yet one is allowed to remain, and the other(s) are not.... One can only wonder: if they DID shut the gaming forum down, and the gamer/artists here had the audacity to question why, or ask for it back, would they also get responses like this: I'm sure there are 1000s of gaming forums on the net. Why not find them? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (what's with that one anyway? is it supposed to be like, 'Wah, crybaby, crybaby! Oh, boohoo, I don't have anyplace to talk to my artist friends about stuff not directly related to art.... Why don't you go find somebody who cares?!')

Thanks brainmuffin. I understand that part. What I am confused about is that a moderator/ administrator is siding with the members against the decision to close the den with post 15 and has a very valid point at the same time. I thought the decision was unanimous. Suppose not everyone on the forum staff has to agree, just didn't expect to see it written here for us to see.

Just so everyone knows, we really do understand where you are coming from. We wanted an open topic area as well. That is why we gave this type of open topic forum a third, and final try. The decision to close the Den was not unanimous, but by majority. There were many valid points made about the pros and cons of this forum. But, the truth was the Den (in it's various incarnations) did require far more time and energy to moderate than any other forum and the results from that time and energy did not produce generally positive results for our members. On the contrary, members were far more likely to walk away with hurt feelings, warnings, and bans. When expending this same time and energy within a software or specific topic forum we can at least see the positive results as artists work to master the tools and get involved in the different areas where those tools can be used. We understand if you may not agree with our decision. However, that is the decision we made based on the facts and resources we have. To debate the point any further would be unproductive. Our primary focus will always be to do what is in the highest good of the community as a whole. We want Renderosity to be the best place to go to learn about and enjoy art and it's many different applications and forms. Best regards, LillianH Renderosity Admin.

Lillian, I sometimes disagree with things you post, but I must say that you handle the angry people here with grace. I wouldn't want your job LOL...

Doug

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 18:55

Doug, not like that Jeff H guy? ;-) the one who has unintentionally fueled the flames while trying to put them out. ( me hopes Jeff knows I'm not being negative, only mentioning past occurrences of issue in rest of post ) the main reason for people walking out hurt is the lack of visual cues as to what is really meant in a post. there ain't no body language in a typed message, we all can ( probably do ) forget this occasionally, and post something that can / is taken the wrong way. due to that lack of visual cues. but the open topic forum, while a dead horse here, has worked on other sites, using both heavy and minimal moderation. if people don't like a decision made by the staff here, they can take thier chat etc., to any of the other sites. then the bitchfest will quiet down.

Thank you Doug. :) I'm really happy to be here. It gives me a chance to help artists in so many ways. Part of helping is being able to work through any difficulties or disagreements that may come up. Jaqui's right, without visual clues, internet communication is definately more difficult and does lead to more misunderstandings than face to face communications. Thinking twice and posting once is always a good idea. Hope you all have a good night. I really have to go approve more contest entries ;-) Lillian

"without visual clues, internet communication is definately more difficult and does lead to more misunderstandings than face to face communications." an extensive set of emoticons can help too....

Yes! Lots and lots of emoticons would be most helpful...what are the chances of getting something like that here at 'Rosity?

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 22:04

No problem, Lillian ;-)

Now that you mention it, I thought there were some cool emoticons around here some where. Hang on...I have to dig through the closets to find those little buggers. Be back as soon as I can get my hands on them, Lillian

Oh gosh, please don't resurrect those ugly things that passed for emoticons from the old OT forum. gag

those things were horrible

NOOOOO, everything but smilies...
Smilies are evil.
Very evil.

Gotta be something easy too...what'cha find so far Lillian?

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/~carrara/emoticons/index.html

Oh...what fun! There's even an emoticon elf set!

Look what you have done now...I have been corrupted by the evil elf emoticons!

If this works, this one would have to be my all time fave :D

Message edited on: 12/20/2004 13:58

Message edited on: 12/20/2004 13:58

Had to try this.
Looks like fun.

Had darn typo already. Message edited on: 12/20/2004 15:30

1. Re: ADMIN and MODS ... in all fairness, let this behavior stop as well. by LillianH on 12/16/04 17:44

"The team determined that the time and resources necessary to moderate a forum like the Den would be better spent assisting members with questions directly related to digital art."

Lillian my friend come on now....you can tell Littlllllllle ole harmlessssssss meeeeeeeee the truth.

Because you and I both know that qoute is not that. LOL

Renderosity does not pay its moderators, does it? And as the last I heard they dont get paid, I would like to know if I may, exactly what time or resource's you are referring too that renderosity was expending to moderate that forum?

If you guys want to close the sucker down thats fine. If you dont want too tell us all why you did it too thats fine. Simply tell us all "we decided to do it and thats that." etc.....But please do not tell us all an out and out fib and claim it was done because of a lack of time or resources to moderate it, when those moderating it are all volunteers to begin with. LOL

Message edited on: 12/20/2004 16:20

Hi BDC, Correction...the mods do get paid. And if it's simple you want, then simple you'll get... We decided to close it. Thanks, Lillian

" Hi BDC, Correction...the mods do get paid. And if it's simple you want, then simple you'll get... We decided to close it. Thanks, Lillian" ~rotflmao~ love it.

It's a good thing BDC knows me well enough to see I am being playful.

All the best,
Lillian

ROFL

Ok, who else just loves these emoticons? I would just like to shout a thanks out to kixum for allowing their use.