I'm interested in putting together a 'Poser' system, but I've heard conflicting stories. I'm getting 4gigs of ram, I heard ram always helps, but I also heard it doesn't make Poser render faster...so how does it help? I'm getting a graphics card with 256mb on it for open GL, but I but I understand poser doesn't use the card...? I'm getting a 250 interal heard drive, and a 250 external hard drive, because I understand 'Poser' needs lots of room, can 'Poser. read two drives OKay? The system has a 3.4gighz Pentium4, will it speed up renders? I'm getting XP professional because I heard it handles graphics better, is this true? I'm not very Techy, will

Here's what I run Poser 5 on: 1.8GHz P4 processor, 512 Meg of system RAM, Nvidia Fx 5200 128Meg graphics card. I also have 2 hard drives which are 60 Gig in total, enough for now but won't be in the long run. My P5 works great with that but yes I would like to up my RAM to 1Gig or 2 but you certainly wouldn't see any benefit from having 4Gig IMHO. I'm sure there will be more for you on this one and again it will probably conflict with what I've said but mine works fine with this set up.

Thanks thefixer.

Right now I'm using Poser4 with Propack, I hope to Get Poser6 when it comes out. Some people use and Poser5 it seems to work fine, others still have problems. There are a couple of areas in Poser5 I hope poser6 address'.

This not a Bash Propack or Bash Poser5 thread. I'm just a little confused about what configuration makes PoserPropack work best. I'm also aware that there are a lot of Mac/G4 users out there that swear by their systems, and I'm sure their systems are terriffic, but a PC is what I like use, (go figure).

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 06:53

Poser has always used the main system processor to render images so having a faster one would make a noticable difference, having 4Gb of memory means you can cram loads more into your scene before poser cries foul & locks up on you.

Poser (4,5 or PP) does not use OpenGL acceleration, however get the OpenGL 256mg card anyway, future versions will have to get video hardware acceleration and DAZ Studio is using it already not to mention every serious 3d app out there.Windows XP Pro is good, it have yet to crash with it and I do pretty heavy graphic work. The faster processor will speed up rendering. 4 gigs or ram is a lot but it will help with very heavy scenes, and also with apps like Photoshop which require a lot of ram.I usually put as much ram as the motherboard can handle when I buy a system, and it's cheap right now.

4 gigs of RAM is no better than 2gigs. The other 2 can't be accessed, windowz won't even know it's there.

Farside is correct. Was a time windowz could not see past 128 megs of ram, now that limit is 2 gigs, so having 4 gigs is absolutely useless unless you just want to be able to say you have it. From what I've heard, speed and ram are the most signifigant factors, as well as a very big and fast hard drive. These are all important for a pc to have although I also understand that because poser is very energy consuming on any pc, it is not a good idea to have a celeron or anything but a pure intel chipset. I know several folks that had their computers literally burn up with rendering because the computer could not take the stress involved to render poser day in and day out with these newer meshes and textures. A graphics card is totally useless for poser at this time, you can add this later if ever need it. XP Pro is absolutely not necesarry at all and just an extra cost because xp pro and xp home run graphics exactly the same way, no dif, except that xp pro may actually give you more trouble with poser because it may have more stuff running in background. Use XP Home Edition unless your networking your home. Make certain you learn how to control your computer so that when your running poser you can turn off excess programs running in background that will also affect poser. Have fun.

Edit Correction and addon.
Celeron is not recommended for graphics whatsoever because it can burn out at extremes, which poser is. In fact even photoshop will not run well on celeron.
If your getting a hardy, strong system, don't worry.
Try to get an external hard drive just for poser as well, like about 250 gigs.
You will need it.
That way you always have a back up of your runtime folder in case your computer or windowz crashes or gets virus or adware laden which happens far too much these days on our pop up happy internet.
Make sure you also get something like norton viruscan and spyware to prevent internet mayhem, spend the extra cash you would have spent on XP Pro on this stuff instead, because you don't sound like you need more than XP Home Edition for what your going to do. Make certain you get 800 bus too, this is important.

Just found out there is a time limit for editing here

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 08:42

It is not a Windows limit. The new AMD processors can handle much more ram. If you get an external HDD -two of eighty is better than one of 160- don't plug it in all the time as that way it'll crash much earlier. Only connect when you want to back up. Keep your old puter for the Internet, and install all protection on that one.. Use a crosslink cable to link both puters. Yet, if you do this, never enter a diskette or a CDRom in your workstation. Always scan first on he protected internet puter.

both AMD and Intel can handle much more RAM, Windows canot. However I suppose it is possible that the new Windows for AMD 64chips may up the limit. Who knows when it comes to Microcrap.

Extra 2 gigs ram won't do much of anything anyways, whether windoz or the computer could handle it or not. You can run poser with 128 ram nicely but I would not recommend it. Most people do very well with 512 to one gig. I have even heard of there being too much ram for poser on a forum somewhere, not sure if it was here or elsewhere. Someone complained about poser having great difficulty due to having too much ram available.

I had a 120GB hard drive reserver for Poser, and it was getting pretty fully recently. I learned a long time ago to get the biggest hard drive I could afford at the time, and to leave it as one partition. That way I wouldn't need to keep making my Poser partition larger. Don't waste your money buying more memory than Windows can handle.

The 2GB limit is definitely Windows. I have 4GB, which is seen by the BIOS, but only 3GB is seen by Windows (probably see that much because I'm on WinXP Pro with dual cpus).

There is also something called a "sweet spot." You see benefits, up to the sweet spot, and after that, your money and memory are wasted. I forget what the sweet spot for Windows XP is.

Hi,

Correction about the memory limit of 32-bit Windows.

The 2 GB limit that people know of in 32-bit versions of windows is "per-application". I am not sure if the OS (e.g. Windows XP) can see 3 or 4 GB although the theoretical maximum address range is 4 GB. The extra memory (beyond 2 GB) will be useful since some of the OS tasks can use this memory and leave a full 2 GB for poser (if poser does not have some internal limitations on memory addressing range).
The RAM doesn't make poser faster, it just makes it able to render more complex scenes, with more polygons and larger textures. However if you don't have enough RAM and poser starts paging working memory to disk then the rendering will slow to a crawl or possibly halt.

A fast processor is essential for big complex renders using lots of figures because poser seems to do all of the hard work in the CPU (processor) and makes no use of advanced GPUs (Graphics Processors) that have multiple pipelines and special floating point processing support for texturing and ray-tracing.

Poser has been reported as being not very clever about dynamically sized paging files so many Poser users recommend having large fixed size page files of approximately 3 GB.

If you want to future proof your system then you might want to investigate the AMD 64 bit processors which should be supported late next year by a 64 bit version of windows. We can only hope that Curious Labs build a 64-bit version of Poser 6 too and then the memory-rich can start doing amazing scenes with 30 or so fully-clothed Victoria 3s infront of a temple.

Also to answer your other points: Poser likes its runtime folder in one place (I believe) but you could save your downloads and pz3 scenes on another drive. I don't think that there are any major differences between XP home and XP pro that would affect Poser performance.

Regards from Jovial.

2 Gig is plenty. A very fast CPU is good. Several fast harddrives is good too. I have 6 physical drives of which 1 is external, Poser has no trouble with any of it. Poser makes a CPU run really hot. Make sure you have a powerful power supply with lots of cooling and a really, really good cooler fan/sink on the CPU itself. Graphics card has almost no significance for Poser at the moment. Windows version - 2K or XP, makes no significant difference. :] Fish

Jovial's info on the 2GB limit is correct. Windows XP can address a maximum of 3GB unless specific steps are taken to change settings -- then the theoretical limit of 4GB can be reached. RAM helps by allowing your computer to do more at once at a given moment without having to wait for information from the page file (the stuff stored on the hard disk). Bobbie's info on the sweet spot is also correct -- but it is a huge variable based on the entirety of your system, inclusive of all the prgorams and applications installed on it. System's which are primed to work best for "games" will not work best for Poser -- and the reverse is also true. Computers function best when you build them -- both hardware and software wise -- to suit a particular type of task. Processor speed will have the greatest overall impact on render speed. Since the propack rendering engine is fairly quick already, however, unless you essentially double your current processor speed and RAM, you are unlikely to see much improvement. Poser does not wait for windows to resize virtual memory caches (swapfiles). For that reason, I and others often recommend setting your VM up to support the maximum for the application and a little more for overhead of windows and stuff like your music player. That comes out to around 3GB. Outside of the processor speed, memory amount, and hard disk space available, anything else hardware related is hogwash for the hardware junkies. Hardware is only half the story, as well. The environment in which you operate software wise must be "clean" and efficient. That is, don't install a bunch of junk, and when you do install, do it in a manner that gets the most performance out of the system. Among things to do are: 1- install windows to it's own partition of about 8Gb and keep it sacred 2 - on a separate physical drive from windows, create a partition large enough for your temp files and swap files -- and then point them there (this is not default). That includes your browser, photoshop, system swapfile, the works. 3 - install your programs which don't flood your system (such as poser and games and other large, comples programs with gigs of data) to a third partition. Do not install them to the windows partition. 4 - never install fonts directly into your windows partition. Set up a separate folder to store them in, and then when installing, make sure the checkmark for "copy fonts to folder" is NOT checked -- that way only shortcuts are done. 5 - Set up poser by itself on a separate partition somewhere where it will have plenty of room. If you are using Poser 5, then you will want your extra runtimes there as well. 6 - set up other programs that require copious space like poser does in their own partitions as well. 7 - reduce the amount of system overhead by shutting down services in windows 2k and xp that are not necessary. Since indidivual netowrk and system configurations will vary considerably, there is no really good example of this -- though many will say there is. It is best solved on a case by case basis. 8 - Use only proven and reliable drivers for your hardware. This doesn't always mean the latest one. It means the one proven to work best AND be the most stable. Those are essentially the main ingredients to amking sure your computer can work smoothly with poser -- and much of it is applicable beyond poser, as well. But, hey, who gives a damn what some crazy ole gal in the middle of the desert thinks. ;)

Well put yansaen. One thing I would like to add is to make certain when installing things, it is done clean and very organized. Make sure you have control of your computer and software and not the other way around. Also when you uninstall, make certain it is also a clean one. Nothing worse than a lot of junk all over the place. And make certain to maintain that computer you depend on so much by defragging it and cleaning it regularly and checking common things, the more you use it, and make sure anyone else using it does it all exactly the same way as you.

the more modern OS's can handle larger partitions. NT, for example, had a primary partition limit of 8 gig, but the succeeding partitions could be a lot larger. I have a Windows 2000 partition of 40 gigs, and another of about 70 gigs (was gonna install Linux on the remaining 10, but it's more trouble than it's worth at the moment..;). I think XP could handle larger sizes..the partitions depending on the Os formatting (Fat 32, NTFS, whatever the NT '5' one is called, it escapes me at the moment..;)
I think what you're suggesting should be plenty..

Wow! Thanks everyone for taking the time, I really appreicate all your imput. I got a lot to digest.

Honestly, if you're going to take all the time to get "techie," don't ruin it by putting Poser on any partition, sharing with other software. Give Poser the biggest hard drive you want to buy, and Poser will always thank you. You'll grow into it as well. As an aside, I've never fiddled with Virtual Memory, even when I got the Insufficient Disk Space to Render error. I just put Poser on its own hard drive, and that was the final solution.

Thinking about buying poser 5. But have a question: I have a Pentium III, 848mhz, 128mb of RAM In your opinion, Would it be worth investing in with my comp? and/or what should I upgrade to help render times? cheers

I hate to say it, but you'd be in agony using Poser 5 on such a computer. I used my Dad's computer for a few months, and it was pretty similar to yours. All I can say is ARGHHHH.

On the other hand, you can work better with Poser 4.

Your computer is old enough that it is likely not practical to upgrade it. It's hard to say without know what type of memory you have (SDRAM, etc?), and whether you can even get that type of memory any more.) I've been limping along with an AMD Duron 1Ghz, and 640MB of RAM. Poser 5 is not too bad as long as I don't get really ambitious.

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 20:42

Having used Poser 4 and 5 (and Vue, and etc) on both PC and Mac, I have to say this: I'm glad I saved up the money and got the Mac G5. The G4 Macs tend to fall short of the performance of a given PC unless you have a TON of RAM. OTOH, The dual G5 1.8 GHz box (the slowest dual setup you can get) with 1.25GB of RAM, beats the unholy catshit out of my PC, which is a Pentium 4m 2.4GHz w/ 1GB of RAM. Personally, I'd save up for the Mac. They hold their value longer, have a wider range of upgrade room, and just in my personal experience, they seriously give more bang for the buck than an equivalent P4 setup. Sure - a dual P4 w/HT box would beat the Mac, but I would've paid $2500 for it instead of the $1700 I paid for the dual G5... /P

I gave up on Macs a decade or so ago, after working "Pricing and Availabibility" for a major computer store chain. People would call several times a day, every day, to see if the latest Apple products were finally received. In all too many cases, Apple announced they'd dumped that product, or changed something to a new model, etc. Then there is the issue of just what is available. Go into a large computer superstore, and try to find the Macintosh section. It's in the corner somewhere. Oh, the rest of the huge store's content is for PC's. Besides, if I went for a Mac now, I'd have to dump all the stuff I've collected to date. No way.

I have to agree on this Apple/Wintel thing. If you already use Macs, it doesn't hurt to invest in a newer model. But if you have thousands of $$$ of software for Windows and want to completely switch, you'll be hardpressed to 1) find the same or equivalent software in some cases and 2) have to dish out another thousands of $$$ to port over - even with competitive and cross-platform incentives. May your bank account be overflowing during such a decision! For instance, MAXON does not have any incentive. If I want Cinema 4D R9 XL w/BP2 on my Mac, I need to shovel out another $1895+$745 (yes, that a whopping $2640!).

Well, I went ahead and bought poser 5. God help me! LOL I meet The system requirements but the fact that they strongly recommend 256mb RAM kinda scares me with only 128mb RAM on my cpu. I guess I'll just have to keep my renders small until I can save up to upgrade. Thanks BB for the info. cheers

Having made that leap to Apple, even with many thousand $$$ of windows software like I had, I would say do it now rather than later. The longer you wait the deeper the hole. WinTel and the constant upgrade cycle they lock you into is the major $ black hole. As I said I was a M$ user big time, but now with the G5 and OS X, wow do we have the best system on the market. Switch now, there has never been a better time.

If they recommend 256MB of RAM, that is being conservative. You likely need more than that. I wish you luck. Poser 5 is a great program.

I've been clunking along for several years now on my hand built PIII 1GHZ. 128meg ram system. It runs great and never gives me a bit of trouble. But My 3D models are getting more and more complex, and the system can't handle them anymore. Poser5 was a complete sled and totally unuseable. I happened to be in the computer store the other day looking for a new monitor. And there was a new SONY VAIO sitting on the opened item sale shelf for $700.00. So I snaged it. The thing it loaded to the gills: 3.2GHZ P4 800 MHZ bus 512meg ram 128 meg vid card with t.v. in's and out's 120gig 7200rpm HD Firewire,network,memory card reader, Flash card reader, DVD re-writable drives......etc,etc. The thing has everything but the kitchen sink. ;-) Anyway. I installed Poser5 on it. And now not only does it run smoothly, but I can actually render hair and use the cloth system now. 8-] You should be pretty happy with Poser5 once you break past the 3ghz. CPU barrier. -ScottA

I'd venture a guess that people who experience problems with Poser 5 are people whose computers are really not up to the task. Maybe they're not powerful enough. But then my computer is pretty wimpy. Maybe the quality of the parts is really not that great. Many computers are made with "the part of the day," and they are not known to "play well with others." You can tell after awhile which parts or computers are liable to be problematic.

"But if you have thousands of $$$ of software for Windows and want to completely switch, you'll be hardpressed to 1) find the same or equivalent software in some cases and 2) have to dish out another thousands of $$$ to port over - even with competitive and cross-platform incentives."

Actually, that's not 100% the case anymore. Vue 4 came on a hybrid Win/Mac disk, as did a huge chunk of my games.

Let me put it this way: Before I got the Mac, I had to spend 45 minutes+ waiting for a P5 scene using Complex Global Lighting to render under Firefly. Now, the same .pz3 file would get done in an average of 10 minutes. That performance alone is more than worth the money to me.

(warning - mild anti-MS bias contained below: )

I'd decided two years ago to get off the Windows train entirely, and had spent most of that time moving to Linux, with a G4 Cube for my CG stuff. When I started moving things to the Mac for CG stuff, I only had to replace Poser itself, with equivalents for everything else that supports it either being available for free (from sites like www.versiontracker.com, www.freshmeat.net), or they had already been included as part of the OSX bundle (like the intro/LE version of MS Office 2004.)

Sure, I'll admit that there are a pile of small utilities for Poser that I'd like to see a Mac version for, but they are quite small in number, and I believe I can remedy the situation myself if the coders are agreeable to it. Otherwise, I can do without 'em, so long as I still have Blender and AC3D on the Linux box to model with.

Besides, how much money and time is wasted in the daily onslaught of Win32 virus attacks, forced computer rebuilds, and the hell of having to deal w/ PC parts that aren't as compatible as the manufacturer said they were? I won't evne have to go into the amount of CPU cycles that get wasted on running hidden spyware and adware, instead of going towards finishing the render.

Don't get me wrong, I still have and use the x86 PC architecture at home, right alongside the Mac. However, the Mac simply runs and runs damned fast, and I don't have to worry about all the ancillary crap that the Windows/Intel platform folks have to.

/P

Message edited on: 12/19/2004 11:59

Attached Link: http://digitaldreams.bbay.com/cputest_p5.zip

I also put a copy in Freestuff, I gather it will take a couple of days to show up, though.

Message edited on: 12/19/2004 12:35

Two essential Poser utilities are PBooost and CorrectReference Pro. They don't come in Mac versions. Just how many Poser utilities do come in Mac Versions?

Poser 5 doesn't have a Mac and a PC version on the same CD. I'd have to buy that. Would any of my current hardware work on a Mac? The HP scanner & Printer? My MS Trackball, the Natural Keyboard? Does Apple even make a Natural Keyboard?

Besides, the good thing about the PC is Freedom of Choice. You can build your own PC, from all the parts you've carefully chosen. You can go to different companies to buy a ready-made PC. You can shop around, and get competitive prices.

Can you build a Mac from parts? Can you buy a version of the Mac from different companies, the way you can get a PC from Gateway, Hewlett Packard, etc

Message edited on: 12/19/2004 14:36

get a page cannot be displayed or cannot download if I right click.. it would be great to run some benchmark scores again

Jim, thanks for the benchmark link. I've definitely noticed a huge speed increase running P5 since upgrading from a G4 Titanium powerbook with 800mhz and 1 gig RAM to my desktop G5 dual 2.5 ghz and 1.5 gig RAM.

Your download link worked fine for me and it will be interesting to see what the benchmarks show!

yeppp..just worked..must have been a busy time

well...here's my time
2minutes 21 seconds----amd64 3200+ 1gig ddr400 ram

Message edited on: 12/19/2004 15:06

In the short 5 months I have been using Poser on the Mac, I have seen 3 new utilities announced, more will follow. This is very encouraging.
With any new System it takes time to create or move software to that platform. I know there are on-going plans from myself and other developers to add additional utilities to the Poser fold.
With Microsofts new OS, Longhorn just around the corner, is now the best time to buy another Windows box? This new OS has major changes under the hood, it will require yet another replacement of your hardware and rewrites of all your favourite software. As a developer I see the Windows platform becoming increasingly fragmented and hard to develop for, with users running all manner of versions and hardware drivers, most of which are out of date and unsupported.

To answer the question concerning peripherals, then YES in all likely hood these would plug straight into the new Macs. Apple now uses the standard, modern protocols and is fully plug compatible. If it won't work on your new Apple then in all likely hood won't work on your new PC either.

In the last 5 years Apple has made huge changes to every aspect of their business. Their prices, the new products and OS X are astounding. They are now worth taking a very serious look at. I've been in the computer industry since 1982 and I have seen many many changes, I don't say this lightly.

Cool. My new system timed out at 170 seconds. That's better than some of the 64bit systems listed and I only have 512meg ram.

kaveman, just to make a counterpoint here. You talk about all the grief that Longhorn will bring to Windows users. Were you in cryonic suspension with the release of MacOS X? I seem to remember several years of grief caused by the poor and slow migration of software from OS 9. I do like OS X very much. Look, I'm not advocating either system over the other (and, Yes, I use both!). My concern was the casual 'switch' ideology. It is not, going either way. And I don't buy the 'not that expensive' bull. I own Poser 4/PP/5, C4D 7/8/9, Vue 4/Pro, Bryce, Adobe Illustrator/PhotoShop/Acrobat/Video Suite (Audition/EncoreDVD,PremierePro,AfterEffect) , Dreamweaver MX, DeLorme StreetAtlas/TopoUSA, DirectoryOpus (an old Amiga favorite of mine - blows Finder and Explorer away), StuffIt, WinZip, UltraEdit Pro, MS Office XP Pro, MS VS 6 (would need CodeWarrior), SmartSound, Pinnacle suite, RH Deep Exploration, Shade 7 Std, UV Mapper, Mimic 2 Pro, and several dozen more medium and small applications, many of which would need to be matched or cross-graded over. If you look at the list, this would cost up to or more than $10000 (not including the Mac system to begin with). It is one thing to spread that over five or ten years including upgrade pricings. But would be difficult in even two years and with cross-grades to afford that amount. How is it justified without some overbearing reason? There is no "switch to MacOS/Windows and get a free transfer of all registered, payed for applications" deal anywhere. Just to clear that up...

kuroyume0161, just follow up on this message address to me,
No I wasn't in cryonic suspension, during the release of OS X. I came in at 8.2 so went through 9 and onto X. FYI the OS X migration was the quickest smoothest OS migration in history. Not poor or slow at all, this was mainly because it ran on the older hardware, I still have that old iMac and its running Panther fine. We did not have to buy new hardware to move forward. But I have heard that Poser had problems with this migration so this may be colouring your observations.

To be quite frank I am advocating a system change, (and, Yes I use both!) I pointed out that my recommendation to evaluate the Apple option was in no way casual. I would also point out that I did not say 'not that expensive' why do you put words in my mouth? All new computer equipment and software is 'expensive' and I think it is very important to evaluate the Total Cost Of Ownership.

I was very reluctant to leave behind a similarly impressive list of windows software. I was a registered Microsoft developer and the amount I had spend on software and hardware upgrades as I went from Windows 3 through to XP has been >$40,000 NZ, we pay about twice the US price and our dollar is equally hard to earn. This ongoing expense was the 'over bearing' reason I changed platforms! All of those products you listed will be costing you more in upgrades as you continue to try and keep up to date, that is a fact of computing. The first rule of holes is 'stop digging'.

Again, I would point out that I never said 'switch to Mac/Windows and get free transfer' of anything, so I don't feel you are clearing anything up, just muddying the water. Moving platforms is a very expensive and difficult process, it should not be done lightly, but now is the best time to evaluate the alternatives as the next version of Windows (Longhorn) will require you to go through this process, even if you currently run Windows!

Both systems are terriffic, it just depends on the one you prefer. I made my decision on which system, my question was how to put together the best "PC" system. I spelled it out in the subject area. I'm not trying to convert anyone, or be converted. I did not want to cause any hard feelings. I didn't want to "bash" any system, BOTH are excellant. I just want to find the best set up for my "PC" for poser. I know everyone is sincere with their suggestions, and I appreicate your imput, but please I don't want to create any hard feelings. 'All' of you have been a great help to many people like myself, and I'm sure will be a great help to others in the future. Thanks everyone.

Exactly. This thread is about PC's. (Not MACs). The other thing that comes to mind is that everyone I know who will even talk to me about computers has a PC.

ho ho ho, this the season to be jolly, no hard feelings here.

Best, means the best, "PC" stands for Personal Computer, Apple makes an extensive range of Personal Computers. IMO they are the best. Sorry I got your intentions wrong, I think what you are looking for is, a best Windows computer, hmmm oxymoron;-)

It's a joke folks, don't let me rattle your faith. Happy Holidays and PC on earth.

Happy Holidays! ;OP

kaveman, mostly the first part of my comment was directed to you and I have a different viewpoint (from the MacWorld itself on the transition). It went well for the size of the transition, but not as well as many would harp on about (?). That over: 1. I didn't bring Macs into this discussion. 2. No, it was someone else negating my mentioning of switch costs. I was directing those comments towards them. 3. I am not a "registered' MS developer, but I am a Full MSDN subscriber. Yes, I've been at the computer thing since 1987 (C64, Amiga, Windows, Unix, MacOS) - and I arrived late. I do know a little bit... 4. The same panic ensued when 98 and XP were released (more so on the latter). I donot think that MS is going to risk their user base by forcing anyone to upgrade immediately. Do you? They're both great OS's (you'd better get used to it). I wish people would stop being prosyletizing advocates based upon subjective emotions instead of what tool is right for the job, correctly priced, and has the least impact overall in updating. Penguinisto: My Windows system did not cost $2500, it cost $1500 (dual Xeon, 4GB, 120|160|120|80GB drives, DVD-/+R/RW, 21" and 17" monitors, etc. and so on). Don't believe that everyone is so gullible to buy only from AlienWare...

kuroyume0161,

1a. Hmmm, so 'poor and slow migration' now becomes 'It went well'. I agree it went very well.

1b. Neither did I.

1. So what part of this message should I disregard.

2. That's the service MSDN, man they sure send you heaps of CD's. I'm still using them as mug coasters. I don't doubt you 'know a little bit'

3. Yes, I do believe that MS expects their user base to upgrade immediately. Failing that ASAP. Why on earth would they put all these years of development into a product, for it to sit on the self. I think they will invest HUGE sums of money to promote its immediate uptake. They did last time, and the time before that, and the time before that...

4. 'both great OS's' In your opinion not in mine. And it sounds to me that you are being guilty of 'prosyletizing advocates based upon subjective emotions'.

I was suggesting that Apple currently has the right tool for this job, that it is correctly priced and that in the long term will have the least impact in updating. This I and a number of others have found true both by research and personal experience. YMMV.

I believe that this thread has reached it's conclusion, and our positions will not change. Lets move on to more constructive endeavours.

Have a Very Merry Christmas, and restful holiday.

Jim, when you cooked up the first Poser CPU benchmark test OS 9 was roughly comparable to Windows in terms of overhead so it wasn't as much of an issue. I'm running OS X (a full implementation of UNIX), not Windows; in raw CPU benchmarks a G5 is still generally faster than a Pentium but no one ever claimed UNIX was small. Add to this the fact that when pressed for details, CL grudgingly admits a large portion of Poser 5's code hasn't been ported from Carbon to Mach yet; for the rest of you out there this means it's still essentially running as OS 9 code, through a compatibility layer instead of written for the native OS. An app written for Win98 running in XP doesn't have this kind of hurdle to go through. Every other app I run on the Mac that's written for OS X from the ground up is blazingly fast, 3D apps included. Presumably Poser 6 will be truly OS X native code and this test will be more relevant between platforms. At this point, you probably also need to ask PC/Mac users to state what kind of memory they have in their boxen, not just how much. Access times are just as likely to be based on the type and it does make a difference. That said, the render takes 441s on a dual 1.8 G5 system running OS X 10.3.7 with 1GB DDR SDRAM.

Message edited on: 12/20/2004 08:16

duanemoody: "Add to this the fact that when pressed for details, CL grudgingly admits a large portion of Poser 5's code hasn't been ported from Carbon to Mach yet; for the rest of you out there this means it's still essentially running as OS 9 code, through a compatibility layer instead of written for the native OS. An app written for Win98 running in XP doesn't have this kind of hurdle to go through. Every other app I run on the Mac that's written for OS X from the ground up is blazingly fast, 3D apps included. Presumably Poser 6 will be truly OS X native code and this test will be more relevant between platforms." He, He! EXACTLY the same thing could be said for Poser (4 & 5) on Windows. Much of the code is still "running as OS 9 code, through a compatibility interface instead of native Windows OS. An app written for current Windows OS's running in XP doesn't have this kind of hurdle to go through. Every other app I run on Windows that's written for current Windows from the ground up is blazingly fast, 3D apps included.". Look at the file dialogs for a clear example of the hamstringing occuring. Or try an HT CPU. Your last sentence similarly substituted would read: "Presumably Poser 6 will be truly current Windows native code." I wish, but doubt there's much chance. History indicates it'll still be Windows calls done by a very old (Win 3.1?) (largely-) Widnows compatible interface library. So don't feel too hard done by. It's not a MacOS vs OSX per se, it's just that CL doesn't do rewrites of their code if they can possibly avoid it. ;-)

Ouch. I guess we both need a steaming cup of sympathy. Here's mine.