Hi Hi all, Just a quick question - been looking on the forum's search and haven't found anything for the last hour, so figured I might quickly ask here. Just purchased Tailor 1.5 because I have been wanting to make some of the clothing more conforming to the characters I'm playing with. First one I have tried is breasts on a slighty altered (scaled up) Preteen. Anyway - got the breasts working on the PreTeen character no problems - however when I try to put those onto the Kids Morphing Clothing (Or any of the PreTeen Shirt models) I get "blocky" breast affect under the breast morph. I can see where the vertexs are going stupid, look like they are not spreading out correctly. Now I think I know why this is happening - but I wanted to ask you far more knowledge people then I in regards to 3d models and vertexs etc. Anyway - The three pictures below will show what I'm going on about. The first is the Daz Morphing Kids Clothing PreTeen shirt, the second is after I have attached a Breasts Morph to that shirt, the third is what happens in poser after rendering with that really ugly breast morph mesh.

Picture 2

Picture 3 I have also tried with Poser 5 smooth mesh on - and that in fact makes it worse, because it then breaks the mesh up. I suspect (I am probably wrong) that I need to 1) Export the model out as OBJ 2) Increase the Vertex count 3) Import back into poser and set up as clothing etc (boy this is something I have never done before) 4) Then include the morphs in Tailor. Would I be right? Is this a issue with a low polygon count? Thanks and hope someone here can answer me problem WiNC

Can't say, but I've seen the same problem myself.

In my experience, the Tailor is really great, but doesn't work all the time. It's good for quick jobs but depends on the clothes being morphed. Changing the polycount is all right, but you'll loose any mrophs already existing in the clothes. On the other hand, if you open the clothes' obj in a modelling program, you might just as well do the morph in this program. The results would be much better. If you're planning to use the same character over abd over and want different clothes to fit better to her, then you may consider using magnet sets instead.

When Tailor can't do it, your best bet is generally using magnets directly in Poser instead. They often do a good job with this kind of manipulation, unless the mesh involved is a really difficult one. :] Fish

FishNose is correct, magnets can almost always do the job. If you also have P5, you can sometimes get the P5 clothing room to work for you. Do a search for the room to find those articles describing a method for creating morphs for conforming clothes. It's not perfect, since many clothing items were made with pieces that like to fall off in the room, but you can usually get around that using the room properly. eric

Please don't tell me I just waste 29.95 US on a program that isn't going to do what I need, or is this just a one off? (and yeah I did look at the demo - but until I exported it out and tried to render I didn't notice the problem) Also increasing the poly count on a piece of clothing would be through another small program I have - not through something like 3dmax or lightwave. Will have a search for the clothing roomand see what I find out there and to be honest, the main reason I bought Tailor was I was tired of spending 7 hours trying to get a maganet to work in Poser 5. Usually it wouldn't be a problem - I would use something else - but in this case I can't find anything that fits the morphs I want to us (thus the reason for purchasing Tailor). WiNC

Well, I wouldn't say the taylor is useless, but there are some things it is better at than others, and this is not the best place for it (at least in my opinion). Frankly, I have only used it a couple times since getting p5 (but more people are putting in the basic morphs). You might try shrinking the boob morphs for this character and trying taylor again. Then, you should be able to use two magnets to increase that little bit of shape (does that make any sense?) Since it's flat to begin with, magnets are less useful than they otherwise could be (I find they usually do the job, but this is one place where they really fall short:( When you do the P5 thingy, be sure that your character is unmorphed at the 1rst frame (and give it plenty of frames before she reaches maturity.) That will help the overall natural fit (the taylor will always make it look glued on, since it doesn't simulate any sort of draping) eric eric

Yeah that is certainly one of the things I was noticing. It was almost like Tailor had "pasted" two half orbs on the shirt. I'm at work now, and I'm going to see when I get home if I can get that Dynamic clothing model working, however, at the same time... I would loose all my other morphs on that clothing which is why I'm using the Kid Morph Set in the first place. (yeah i know - I could also buy the Teenager model from Daz, but to be honest I'm getting tired of having to buy new models every time I need a new character designed) If I take the model out to obj - increase the polygon count, then import it in, could I not use Tailor to move from one set of clothing to another the morphs I would then be missing? What about when you make it dynamic clothing - can you then add morphs to the dynamic clothing? I don't know much about this side of thing - I didn't really get into it too much because of time, and most of my projects had other work to do on them before I was to start the poser/modelling work. Gonna have a serious look at Dynamic clothing ... just wish the first time I had used Tailor since getting it yesterday it hadn't proved to be useless for the task :( WiNC

Actually, I think Taylor does its best on big-breast morphs. ;-) The problem is, while it is an amazing program, people can do better, it doesn't know anything about draping or where to put some extra in to prevent hard corners. You can do better with magnents, and MUCH better with a good modeling program. Tailor is a lot easier, though.

I've used Tailor for hundreds, even thousands of morphs and it often does a very good job. But it doesn't always solve the problems. So in the 10% or cases when it doesn't do the job, I use other methods. :] Fish

Jim - Wish I had seen all this before - but all I saw was some of the really great stuff done on this site with the program. I am not overly up on 3d programming so I was hoping that with Tailor I'm going to be able to move some of the stuff from Michael 2 to 3, and include some of the morphs that the main system has. One thing I was thinking, since most of the hard stuff to me is altering the model (I'm really not that good at doing 3d work) would it be easier to include the morphs I want in Tailor (for example - Emaculate) and then go into poser, export that out to an object file, then use this small program I have which will increase the polygon count, and smooth the mesh slighty, and then import back into Poser and make the clothing dynamic? This way I should then have something that is looking smooth, and drap, while being the correct size for the character involed? Would this work? WiNC.

Fish - what other methods do you use please - I would really like to learn this stuff, since I'm wanting to use Poser for a high quality free comic I'm working on and for a couple of Text Adventure Games I'm doing. Thanks WiNC

I don't know anything about dynamic clothing, it is one of those things I have to find the time to try some day, but that sounds like a lot of work for what will (probably) be a small improvement. You might do better on subdeviding the clothing before you run it through Tailor. BTW, did you play around with the settings in Taylor? I use 8.0 for "Closer then" and .004 for "clear if not more than", I find that works better than the default settings.

Attached Link: My gallery - some serious morphing, a lot of tweaking and fiddling (NUDITY)

The easiest technique by far for something as simple as breast size is magnets in Poser. If you haven't done them before, it's really worth getting into. I'm not one of great patience with learning new functions :o) but once I got the hang of magnets I loved them. I can completely recreate Vicki with them if I want to. Takes time, but you can do a lot with it. So for instance, if I have a heavily modified Vicki and I want to fit stock clothing to her fairly quickly, I simply conform it to her and then start adding magnets to the clothing to make it fit well enough. I fiddle for some time - until I'm happy. Occasionally I hit an item that WILL NOT behave, often because it has been built usung non-standard techniques or has body parts that do not correspond too well to the character's. Then it's a case of make the best of it - or give up. Another sue can be invisible body parts - ones that are only there for the sake of hierarchy, etc. Typical example: skirts. But for the most part I can do a lot with Tailor. For instance, if I have an item I know I'll be using a lot, I'll take it into Tailor, along with my own Vicki or V3 or MayaDoll or whatever, and add morphs for a couple of hours, until I have as many as 500 or 600 added to all the body parts of the clothing to fit. Of those morphs, maybe 30 or so will be unsatisfactory, 60 will be slightly usable, etc. I then use the clothing in Poser and use combinatons of morphs and scaling etc until it fits well enough. When using conforming clothing after all, you are not actually 'fitting' anything to anything - you are just trying to make one item (clothing) appear to cover parts of another item (character) well enough to convince the eye in your final render. There is no collision detection, nothing. It's all about approximation. Then you go and pose the char differently and all hell breaks loose - poke though everywhere lol. And then it's time to twiddle dials, tweak, tweak.... until you can live with it. Sounds primitive, but clothing without collision detection IS primitive. There is one situation where this kind of solution is unusable - animation. One can't tweak for every darn frame, no way. Best of luck ;o) and as I said, learn magnets, it's worth every minute of effort. :] Fish

Tailor does the best it can with differing meshes. It works best when there's no concave to the morph. One of the interesting things in Poser is how the limitations of the tools puch you into learning more. Conforming clothing often doesn't have morphs, so you get and learn Tailor. Then Tailor fails to give you what you want, so you explore magnets and dynamic cloth. Then you find that dynamic cloth is fine, but you have to redo the draping and pose each time, so you learn how to use dynamic cloth like you'd use tailor. Then there's still some jaggies you don't like, so you get a 3d modeling program with a smoothing option, and learn that. It never ends....

Would it be better for me to just fix the original mesh - though of course that would mean I haven't got the other morphs included, but if I export out with the morphs I'm after it should work... right? I think I need to learn 1) Importanting Clothing Models 2) Dynamic Clothing 3) Texturing 4) How not to expect any quick fixes when I don't want to just do a stock pose with stock clothing :D I will also try playing with that options in tailor - I think I got it the wrong way around. So I put it to 0.000 - though I'm not sure if that will help too much (but could be). Thanks all for the help - though I do feel maybe I had too high expectations of tailor and now need to learn a lot more about modelling clothing to get what I want working... basically - to save myself the hassel (and cost) of buying billions of other clothing packs (already have too many) and finally utilites some of the free stuff out there, I need to learn how to modify these clothings better... Again thanks WiNC

Well did a number of tests on the Daz3d Kids Morphing Clothing and I'm sure it must be the low polygon count of those meshes because they really don't like any type of morph I put on them. I have also increased the settings on Tailor in options to see if that will have any luck - nothing. It appears that if there isn't enough polygons in the original model it will pretty much break up - and secondly if you look at the original mesh, it appears that the sections are sharing vertexs. Under the breasts there is always one blue vertex in the breast part of the shirt section. I'm sure this is why Tailor isn't really morphing this correctly. I will be trying to add some morphs to a higher polygon model (one of billy's) tonight, to see if I have any better luck. Thanks all for your help, I will put update if I learn more about this program and its resistrictions. WiNC

One thing I've found with Tailor is to tell it to create the morph like it is a full body morph. It seems to work on the whole mesh instead of just the like named body parts. You'll still get some lousy looking morphs at times, but with a few magnets it's not very hard to smooth out some of the bad areas. If you're using P5 you can set the morph for the body part, add a magnet or two, fix the problem area and spawn a new morph with a different name. Delete the original morph and magnets(or zero out the magnets), set the new morph value to where you want it and then spawn a morph with the original name. It can take some time, but it does work. If you're using P4 or PPP you would have to delete the morph in morphmanager, etc. Ed

Ed, Sorry not totally sure what you are meaning there. Also have you seen any good tutorials on magents in use with clothing - there is some that PhilC have, but I can't seem to find any that deal with clothing morphing etc. I am having big problems trying to figure out how to use Maganets, and getting them to only affect certain parts of the clothing body that I want. Why would I have to delete the original morph and magnets and spawn another when fixing the original clothing morph? I'm a little confused as to why this would be needed?? WiNC

Ed had a very good point, actually the only correct way to make morphs that span mutiple body parts (like all breast morphs)is the FBM way, otherwise the edges are incorrect, they tend to look like your example, in fact. ;-)

Message edited on: 01/10/2005 19:07

Yeah - but I made it a FBM... above is a FBM - it is WAY worse if you just change the individual morphs.