Hello, it's the newbie again. I'm taking a self-study class in Poser (4, even though I have 5) through LVS Online. The first lesson states that it's better to clothe the model before posing. Why? I had already decided against that because I keep having to be sure I've selected the model and not her clothes as I'm posing her, and there doesn't seem to be any problem, as far as I can tell, in getting the clothes to conform to the model once she's posed. Which is better, and if it's better to clothe first, then is there a way to prevent the clothes from being accidentally selected while still having 'em conform as the model is posed? Thanks, griffen

I always dress the figures before posing. I then save the un-posed complete figure back out to the library. The best way to not accidentally select the clothes is to get out of the bad habit of clicking on something in the workspace to select it. Always (and I mean ALWAYS) use the Figures menu at the bottom of the screen.

Thank you for your rapid reply, samtherapy. Why is it preferable to dress them first?

That's my workflow, which is probably different from yours.

Here's more or less how I do it:

Create a character, morphs first. Save.

Add clothes. Save.

New start.

Create scenery. Save as PZ3.

New start.

Load figure(s). Pose. Save poses/expressions.

New start.

Load scenery. Load figures. Apply poses. Adjust as necessary. Delete and create lights, or adjust existing lights. Save lights. Save PZ3.

Render.

Message edited on: 01/13/2005 16:58

Well, I don't know if it's better, maybe if you're undecided it's best to try several poses first but practically speaking, you'll still have to tweak the pose after dressing your model. Most poses are created with unclothed models so clothing them might give you some collision with the clothes, especially if the hands are on the hips. Sometimes the clothes mesh may not be so hi-res and forcing it into an extreme pose will cause breakage, twisting (especially in the chest) and not to mention footwear with heels being the main reason for having to refine the pose. So, basically you can pose your model whenever you like, just be prepared to do the necessary tweaking after you conform the clothing. Needless to say in the case of dynamic clothing in P5 you HAVE TO clothe them first in order to do the animation to pose the dynamic clothes.

I too choose to give my figures hair and clothes before posing them. In fact, my workflow resembles the one used by SamTherapy. It just seems easier to dress them first. Usually their clothes will stay on just fine unless the pose is too extreme.

I usually pose first. I find it difficult to pose the figure if I can't see it all, and clothes get in the way. Yes, you can hide the clothes...but why bother, when you can just dress them later? The only reason I can think of for clothing first is to get in the habit, for the times when you will be using items that are not conforming or smart-propped. Dynamic clothes, faery wings, hair that was designed for a different character. It's much easier to bring them in when the character is in the default position than to try and match the item up when the figure is posed.

I pose 1st...dress later.

Griffen, How do you like the course so far? I am thinking about taking it myself.

Dress first- The reason is that clothing DOES NOT ALLWAY fit correctly. Many many clothing items, especially for the 3rd gen figures, does not have all the fmb's and morphs that the base character has. Thus makeing them unfittable untill you use something like morph manager to transfer them. Now- say you spend an hour or 3 days poseing, you apply your cloths.... ...and they don't fit right. Now THAT will make you scream!!!

Have you ever tried to dress a child who is squirming, and not cooperating? It's easier to dress Poser figures when they're in the default pose. Yes, you want to check your clothing to be sure it has whatever morphs you use on your figures. But that should be done toward the beginning of your workflow. You can call it research or preparation, and it saves lots of headaches. Tailor is the best tool I've found for duplicating morphs into clothing.

Clothing doesn't always fit correctly, but I can almost always make it fit. Magnets, the Tailor, turning body parts invisible, postwork, whatever. If it still doesn't look good, I'm more likely to try different clothes than to change the pose to accomodate the clothing. IME, changing the pose to fit the clothing often results in that stiff "mannequin" look that tends to be the biggest flaw in Poser images.

For me it depends. One thing to consider is how complicated the scene will be. Posing without clothing leaves memory less crowded. SamTherapy is correct in 2, but isn't that a sad statement? You shouldn't click on something to select it? Way back, I suggested to CL that once clothing is conformed to a figure the default when clicking on the clothed figure should be on the figure's segment to be moved and not the clothes. ...but what do I know?

Clothing the model first makes sure that there are no severe problems with the clothes. Then if you pose and find that there are problems, you know that the pose is the issue.

I used to never, ever click on something to select it. But now, I frequently use the mouse. Learning the shift-key trick helped a lot. I also find it easier to use the mouse when using IK and limits to pose. Just drag the hand into position, and the arm follows. Much faster and more natural-looking than dialing each part.

Here is a big hint: When adding figures to the scene, ALWAYS rename them immediately to their proper name. It seems that CL, DAZ, and other people always name their figures with the generic name of "Figure 1", instead of something descriptive, like "Right Shoe" or "Dress". If the figure is added to the scene with a name like "Figure 1", here's what to do: 1) Using the bottom, left pull-down box, select this figure (it should be last on the list). 2) Using the bottom, right pull-down box, select BODY. 3) Go to Object > Properties (or hit Ctrl-I). 4) In the "Name" box, type in a descriptive name. 5) Hit enter. Repeat for all figures in the scene, as they are added, and you'll never accidentally pose clothing instead of the character. Well, almost never... be sure to pay attention to which figure is selected before applying poses. :) --John

I've tried both ways and prefer to dress the model after I selected a pose. I'm a Poser4 user and found it easier to use the 'default' pose to dress the figure rather than morphing it to death once you have the cloths on the figure. Just saves me lots of time. The less fussing over morphs after the clothing is on and conformed, the better. ;)

that stiff "mannequin" look that tends to be the biggest flaw in Poser images.

That's it. IMO - this is the #1 problem with Poser scenes. And the most difficult aspect of Poser to get around.

As for dressing -- I usually dress the figures first, unless if I have some specific reason to do it the other way around. It depends upon the particular scene in question as to which method I use.

About 90% of the time -- dress first.

I always, definitely pose first and dress later. What the character is doing is the main issue for me, not what she/he is wearing. And NEVER ever will I put up with a stiff pose. I think in terms of real people, how they hold themselves, all the little details of hand posture, expression, balance and so on. Including of course a certain amount of (intentional) randomness and asymmetry. So when I have the pose and the rest of it the way I like it (may take days!), I save the pose as a PZ2 and then zero the figure. Dress, conform and apply pose the saved pose to figure. See what went wrong with clothes, fix with tweaks, magnets etc. Along the way I 'save as' many times, almost only as PZ3 or PZZ. In other words I have many versions of the PZ3 with incremental numbering, as in V3SitOnCouch-05, -06, -07 etc. :] Fish

FishNose, you're actually dressing your figures before you pose them in your final render.

Tried both a zillion times and finally decided that the "majority" of the time "for me" dress first works better,as I tend to use some radical poses at times (contortion etc). Just did a pic (didn't dress first). I had purchased just the right boots for Vic, for this scene, but I couldn't get them on her,conformed,not conformed & parented, magnets, dials whatever. She finally ended up barefoot. I've also found that what FishNose said works for me "if" my characters pose, doesn't have to have an extremely exacting relationship to other items in the environment. I'm thinking more and more it really "depends" on the scene,pose & clothes. Big help huh? :-(