Attached Link: http://www.planit3d.com

PlanIt 3D takes great pleasure in announcing an interview with Larry Weinberg the creator of Poser. He has been very busy at Curious Labs and gives us just a few hints of what to expect in the next version of Poser.

A gracious interview, and I for one salute you Larry for staying true to your vision. May you actual get your 'year or two to become a Poser user,' see you at Renderosity. >>>> ambient occlusion and image based lighting <<< what, pray tell, are these? ::::: Opera :::::

IBK or imaged base lighting generates lights based on a image. The other thing I dont know.

Ambient occlusion was a technique introduced by ILM to simulate global illumination (the diffuse reflection of light throughout an environment) at a fraction of the processing cost.

Ambient Occlusion on google ...interestingly my web site makes #4 :D

Kind of sounds like they might be getting the message on lightling, but didn't get the message on Content Paradise.

As long as I can still delete the Content Paradise, I'll be happy LOL

Excellent Google indexing stewer...hope it sends you traffic. Too frantic to attmept to absorb it now, bookmark. ::::: Opera :::::

I have no idea about the traffic - I have no logfiles or counters. And I did no tricks whatsoever - just had the luck of my AO plugin being surprisingly popular in the C4D crowd.

Certainly an interesting article. CG Mag seem to have a different opinion to Larry on Shade. Given Poser is primarily a "person" renderer, it's odd that they would put energy into something like IBL (which seems to have limited benefits to people renders IMO), as opposed to a good sss node.

Maybe IBL is a low-range version of HDRI. But I thought Larry would be off in Tahiti somewhere, living off his Poser residuals on his own private island.

"Maybe IBL is a low-range version of HDRI." Pretty much. You use your Background image, Gives a more real render, better color on light reflection. Not as good as HDRI but not quite so hard on the system resources. I have Shade Standard and it has both IBL and HDRI, my jaw hits the floor every time I do a render with it. Poser users will love it.

Sounds like Curious Labs is on solid footing. That's great to hear -- especially in view of much speculation not-so-long-ago on the part of some concerning CL's impending demise.

I am looking forward to the arrival of Poser 6. I expect that the package will be all that Mr. Weinberg says that it will be.

I intend to support the company that produces one of my favorite software applications: as well as the content providers that Mr. Weinberg referred to in his interview.

"Maybe IBL is a low-range version of HDRI." That would be backwards. HDRI is a subset of IBL.

OK, I'll bit. Why is HDRI a heavier file size and crisper render. Even the Shade tutorials state that HDRI is the better and higher quality.

IBL is a concept -- Lighting based on an image. HDRI is an implementation of that concept.

Ah, I see said the blind man as he waved his hammer and saw.

IBL means using images as light source. HDRI means images that have more than 256 levels (8bit) of brightness information per channel.

Not "quite" correct, HDRI (as used in rendering terms) is a subset of image-based lighting that can have brighter than white lights and darkere than black shadows. This is so the renderer can determine the lighting difference between a sheet of paper, a phospherent light, and the sun. The reason I say this is "not quite right" is that you can have greater than eight bits of colour information and NOT be uing HDRI. For example, using 16 bit tiffs would still be classified as non-HDRI.

"Q: Users are also wondering about better camera controls and a Brazil based rendering system for Poser 6. Can you give us some insight into those possibilities?" "A: I'm not sure what you mean specifically by better camera controls. You'd have to elaborate on that one. Poser 6, as I mentioned, will include ambient occlusion and image based lighting which can give a huge boost in the look. I imagine this is what you mean by Brazil based rendering." LOL. Uhm, I would have thought a "Brazil-based" rendering system would mean the ability to use the Brazil renderer as a plugin? Jeez, that was a silly question to ask I think. A good idea, but it will probably never happen. Then again, Truespace 7 is said to have the ability to use Vray (previously exclusive to 3dsmax) as a plugin renderer at an extra cost, so I guess anything is possible. Vray costs a little less to license than Brazil too. ;-) Having "ambient occlusion" ability must mean we'll also be seeing some extra G-Buffer output capability in Poser 6, since it's typically rendered in it's own special pass, then composited with the other passes in post. :-)

"a "rebirth" of Content Paradise" Still scamming for a cut of that third-party cash, eh? How can you have a "rebirth" of something that was stillborn in the first place? If you want money from add-on content, sell your own, damn it! I am glad to hear that they have something in mind beyond bug fixes (in contradiction to earlier CL statements). But given the Poser 5 debacle, I won't even think about buying P6 until about SR3 or so... ;)

"Not "quite" correct, HDRI (as used in rendering terms) is a subset of image-based lighting that can have brighter than white lights and darkere than black shadows. This is so the renderer can determine the lighting difference between a sheet of paper, a phospherent light, and the sun."

Tthe use of HDRI in rendering is not just limited to IBL (as in using an image as light source): HDRI is also frequently used for environment mapping (with a bit of shader node magic, you can do that in Poser 5).

Yet, many applications misleadingly have a "HDRI" label on their IBL functions, just like many say radiosity when they mean path tracing or photon mapping.

Every renderer knows whiter than white, they all use floats or doubles for their internal calculations. For example, you can set a Poser 4 light to 10000% intensity for "brighter than white".

"The reason I say this is "not quite right" is that you can have greater than eight bits of colour information and NOT be uing HDRI. For example, using 16 bit tiffs would still be classified as non-HDRI."

Actually, this presentation from the SIGGRAPH 2003 course on HDRI and IBL does list 16bit/channel TIFF as HDRI file format.

"The reason I say this is "not quite right" is that you can have greater than eight bits of colour information and NOT be uing HDRI. For example, using 16 bit tiffs would still be classified as non-HDRI."

That's not exactly right either. There are two ways to count bits for an image: either by the number of bits per color channel or the number of bits per pixel. 16 bit TIFF images have 16 bits of depth per color channel (obviously), and a maximum dynamic range of 65,536:1, limited by the dynamic range of the capturing device. That is widely considered HDR. Compare that to a regular 8-bit TIFF or Jpeg, which has a maximum dynamic range of only 255:1, and cannot exceed that range.
Message edited on: 01/18/2005 10:06

While I appreciate the interview, Planit3d kinda played softball. Some questions I would have asked: "Poser 5 brought no real improvements to the core P4/PP engine, even though CL promised a new, rebuilt engine. Are you going to give us the same engine in P6?" "What is your plan for the P4 bugs that still exist in P5? Are you going to fix them?" Apparently they aren't going to do anything with the interface (he's happy with it) or animation ("it's as easy as it gets"); or camera controls ("I'm not sure what you mean by better camera controls"). So what is going to be in P6? Different lighting and a reborn content paradise? At this point I doubt I'll be buying.

But given the Poser 5 debacle, I won't even think about buying P6 until about SR3 or so... ;) I agree. And, please, people, DO NOT pre-order Poser 6. Please remember what happened with Poser 5: the program was patched many times during the first weeks of its release AND it was available for $99 on Amazon.com a few months later. Wait until SR2 or 3... or at least wait until CL gets to the point where they aren't releasing 2-3 patches every day. And I have to ask why Content Paradise is coming back? How many people actually use it? Or, more to the point, how many people have actively removed it? And, like Jackson, I have to wonder if P6 will be completely new or if it will be coded on top of the existing P5 codebase... which was built on P4... which was built on P3. In other words, will we still see some left-over error messages dating back to P4? --John

Little things: Point lights. It seems like everyone else has them. Couldn't we get point lights? And a cancel button? How about an undo that works with deletes, and a layered undo? How about fixing the dialog screens to that they behave consistantly. Multiple selects? Better memory management? Hardware accelleration? Fixing the other P5 bugs? Getting rid of the internal web browser? Font control? Big things: Full Shade integration? A better setup room? Improving the rendering engine? How about improvements to the face, hair, and cloth rooms? More options in the materials room? While I'm glad Larry gave the interview, there's not much meat there. Most of the problems, wants, issues that have been brought up in the community weren't addressed. I'm not holding my breath that they will be any time soon.

Can't you wait until you have used the software yourself before you judge it? Oh, wait, this is Renderosity - I guess not.

"Can't you wait until you have used the software yourself before you judge it?" Not judging, just asking legitimate questions. Besides, once bitten twice shy.

"Can't you wait until you have used the software yourself before you judge it?"

Nope, that would mean giving them our money first.;)

I've been pretty happy with P5 since SR4, but I was awfully frustrated with it for an awfully long time before that, and I'm not going to put myself in the same position again. When I see more satisfied P6 users in the forums than angry ones, I'll chance it. Until, then, my money stays in my pocket. Message edited on: 01/18/2005 11:56

And from the other side... (ie: those who were happy with P5 from the beginning). Remember that old lay about the self fulfilling prophecy. There is still a great deal of animus out there about one aspect or the other of the P5 debacle. If 'everyone' kept their money in thier pocket, that -would- be the finish of CL....no matter who they were bought out by (and there have been more than enough people who have ranted and raved about taking any chance they could to 'get even' with CL). P4 was a bugfest on release too, IIRC. People would do well to make up their own minds, and not base any decision on the loudest static in the air at any one time, either pro or con.

Curious Labs has to accept some responsiblity for their own survival. Many people are still very unhappy with Poser 5, and that way Curious Labs handled it. It's only natural to be skeptical and wait. I haven't seen anything in that interview that addresses any of our concerns. But then again, this was likely envisioned as a "fluff interview," rather than an investigative interview. Make the site look good by having a "feel good" interview with the creator of Poser. Nothing wrong with that. I will likely wait weeks or months after Poser 6's release. Wait to see other people's reviews, and see how many bugfixes and service packs they release.

*"P4 was a bugfest on release too, IIRC."

*My point exactly. You can only screw people over just so many times before they won't take it anymore.

"If 'everyone' kept their money in their pocket, that -would- be the finish of CL"

You're suggesting that they don't deserve to be finished? Because me, I'm not quite sure yet. If they can't deliver the goods right out of the gate this time, I think they're done regardless. No sympathy here. You only get one reputation, and if you ruin it like CL has, you pay the price.

Pre-order Poser 6? Hahahaha! Burn me once shame on you, Burn me twice shame on me. I learned my lesson with P5. I'm sure I'll get P6, but it'll be after it's been out for a while, after a few SR's have been out to fix those 'features' they didn't mean to release.

not even in beta and ppl are moaning and bitching. I ask ya. you all screen your mail for bombs and poisons? you go round all day with snarls and think that the world is out to get you all? c'mon! it's an interview. nothing there is set in stone until the master CD is burnt and the disks go off for packaging. as stated in one place - a year to 18 months. a lot can change. a lot can't change. we won't know until that master is burnt. but lets not start the moaning now huh? it gets old. how about talking about whats relevant NOW?

Well, I'm not rushing on P6. And I don't think CL should be rushing. As for this HDRI stuff. 1 bit works out the same as 1 stop for a photographer. 8-bit grey-scale is around two stops better than you can get on a photographic print, and maybe even a bit better than the negative. Most lenses can be adjusted over a 7-stop or 8-stop range at most. But real life can be a bit wider-ranging. And a lot of the art and science of photography is about getting the important bits of real life looking right, without carelessly throwing away the extremes.

"not even in beta and ppl are moaning and bitching."

Consider it a warning. If we make it clear what CL is in for if they knowingly scam us with bugware again, and they do it anyway, they deserve everything they get. And more.

"you go round all day with snarls and think that the world is out to get you all?"

Are you implying that its not?;)

While I'm not at all optimistic about the chances of P6 being worthwhile, I'm still hoping for the best. I really do like Poser, you know.;)

you could have fooled me! all I've seen is moaning and whining. the fact that patches were released don't mean a thing does it? the fact they did try and fix it and not just leave it... nope. don't mean a thing. no, it's not a warning. it's just the internet mentality of moan first, moan second, moan somemore. (and yes.. I do appricate the irony of complaining about complaining ;))

Here we go again........the software is months away from setting a release date, and we are already pre-judging and making threats about it.........

P5 is great. Not perfect, but great.

I fully expect that P6 will be better. Not perfect, but better.

I, for one, will be happy to purchase P6 as soon as it is released.

As for the rest, I believe in seeing the doughnut.

"but lets not start the moaning now huh? it gets old. how about talking about whats relevant NOW?"

Who's moaning? We are simply discussing the topic of this thread: the Weinberg interview, which focused a lot on P6 and CL's future. The success of both of these, IMO, depend largely on whether CL learned from their past mistakes. To me, that is relevant now.

"the fact they did try and fix it and not just leave it... nope. don't mean a thing."

You're mistaken. All they tried to fix were the bugs brought on my P5's new features. They didn't touch the underlying program code, which is still full of bugs that have been there for years. Problems that they should have fixed before adding any new (and also bug-ridden) features.

Message edited on: 01/18/2005 14:14

Message edited on: 01/18/2005 14:16

"the fact they did try and fix it and not just leave it... nope. don't mean a thing."

LOL! They didn't fix it out of the kindness of their hearts.;)

Attached Link: http://www.sparkchaser.net/blather/penglatest.html

I don't think it's so much an urge to bitch and moan, as much as it is a chance to air some past concerns, now, while the P6 codebase (or at least the idea thereof) is still very fluid and easy to change. Personally, if P6 is just a patched-up P5 with some bells and whistles attached, P6 will get surpassed by someone else - D|S, or perhaps a yet-unknown challenger that may pop up between now and then. The P5 codebase is just a re-vamped P4 codebase, which was just are-vamped P3 codebase, etc... IMHO, there's going to have to be a lot of optimization and upgrade in the very inner workings of Poser if CL wants to actually sell Poser 6 in any meaningful quantity. Now would be a great time to get in there and re-write the engine and codebase to take advantage of machinery and OSes that are out today, not top-of-the-line stuff from 2000. That way, by the time it releases, the codebase will be recent enough to work well in modern equipment, but still have enough legacy behind it to be useful to the majority of the market. /P

I assume they've been working on Poser 6 for some time now. With that in mind, they've either begun to rewrite the program from scratch, or it's too late to do so without dumping all the work they've done so far. One thing that would soothe me over about the Poser 5 fiasco: release a fixed version on CD, minus the crappy protection scheme, and including all the service releases. Oh yes, while they're at it, why not finish working on Don & Judy?! Once Poser 5 is finally "correct," then move on to another version. But that ain't gonna happen. So I'll wait awhile after Poser 6 comes out, to see how many people scream at the bugs, and waith for them to release a few service packs.

IMHO, there's going to have to be a lot of optimization and upgrade in the very inner workings of Poser if CL wants to actually sell Poser 6 in any meaningful quantity. Now would be a great time to get in there and re-write the engine and codebase to take advantage of machinery and OSes that are out today, not top-of-the-line stuff from 2000. That way, by the time it releases, the codebase will be recent enough to work well in modern equipment, but still have enough legacy behind it to be useful to the majority of the market.

Ah! An idea! An actual, real-to-life idea!

Refreshing.

I don't think it's so much an urge to bitch and moan, as much as it is a chance to air some past concerns, now, while the P6 codebase (or at least the idea thereof) is still very fluid and easy to change.

In your case -- based upon your post -- this is most likely true.

"if P6 is just a patched-up P5 with some bells and whistles attached, P6 will get surpassed by someone else"

And CL has said for ages that that is exactly what P6 will be, that they're not rewriting it, just tacking on to the same ol' bloatware.

" I assume they've been working on Poser 6 for some time now. With that in mind, they've either begun to rewrite the program from scratch, or it's too late to do so without dumping all the work they've done so far. " Not necessarily. If the codebase is written in a useful and actually portable language (C/C++ ferinstance), you can scrounge the majority of the codebase out and optimize it to within an inch of its life. (Or better yet, re-write it from scratch based upon lessons learned since the last time it was re-written.) The first D|S engine (not the rest of it, just the engine) was done by one guy, from scratch, in a very short time. When you simply continue to patch and bloat and patch and bloat your way around problems and features... you get crap like Windows ME (which was the last DOS-cored monster among Windows OSes, right before Win2k came out.) It's the same no matter what code you write - unless you get in there and clean house once in awhile, or unless the original codebase is damned clean and stable, with enough room for expansion, you end up with bloatware that ends up being more of a liability than a utility. Poser IMHO is at that stage right now - either they get in there and clean house code-wise, or they're going to end up with something that will kill the company. CL doesn't have Microsoft's market penetration, so they can't afford to stretch things out like MSFT can vis-a-vis "Longhorn" (an OS which by all accounts appears to be a result of slathering new "Longhorn" code atop XP code, atop Win2k code, in turn piled on atop the old Windows NT microkernel.) ...even in MSFT's case, they may find that doing such things will prove to be the factor that eventually kills them. /P

What's being proposed here -- that complete re-write -- is indeed what has already begun. CL has statements to that fact already. That revised code base will go into P7. What they are doing, however, again already stated, is digging hard into the code base and trying to fix all those pesky annoyances (the bugs). The things mentioned in the interview as "new features" aren't. They are already present in the current release, but will likely have "easier" methods for being done than the current methods allow for. As far as "waiting" -- well, that's up to the individuals. And if they are going to wait, I certainly hope they will tell us all that they are. I will not -- or at least, not by choice. As soon as 6 is released and I have the funds, plop it shall go into my hands. It won't be done becuase I want to be an early adopter. It won't be done because I support CL. IT won't be done because I want to come into the forum and crow about P6. It will be done because it will be Poser, version 6. That would make it newer than Poser, version 5. It is also made very clear that Poser Artist will be moving along as well. I might just pick it up for the hell of it (depends on the rationale I can supply the husband). The entire political nature of the debate is meaningless -- but ever so much fun. We've done this since Poser 3, and will do this with Poser 10. We're all a bunch of whiny artist types. It's what we do...

First, many of the statements concerning Poser 6 were very vague. Second, in order for all the statements you made to be true, I'd guess there are at least 3 different teams working on related projects: 1.) Fixing Poser 5 and calling it Poser 6 2.) A complete rewrite of Poser. That would likely be Poser 7. 3.) Poser Artist (formerly known as Poser 4. Of course, that doesn't make much sense if previous statements concerning Poser Artist are true. We've been told it's really Poser 4 in a new box. It makes no sense to change this if we've moved on to Poser 5, 6 and 7.) Oh, and I'm not whining.

*"The entire political nature of the debate is meaningless -- but ever so much fun. We've done this since Poser 3, and will do this with Poser 10.

We're all a bunch of whiny artist types. It's what we do..."*

Truer words were never spoken.;)

Gee, Ron, that's really perceptive of you. :D Cept nothing says it has to be three teams. One team can do all of that. And what better time to start that in depth total rewrite than when ya'll sit down and really dig into the old gunk and clean it up -- let's you see all the stuff that ya screwed up the first time and can try to avoid the second. I will say one thing, though. Poser 6 is going to piss more old timers off than Poser 5 did. Poser 6 is going to cause all the wonderful hacks and stuff to not work anymore. Why? Because they are doing exactly what was asked. They are fixing all the bugs. (We can only hope they agree with what many here call bugs, lol) A lot of those bugs have been exploited. Magnets, Readscript hacks, easypose, crosstalk, and more. Some products in the marketplace today are essentially composed entirely of hacks on hacks like a house of cards. Well, if CL fixes those bugs, those hacks are gonna go bye bye. If they do what they have said they are doing -- which is cleaning up and out all the old stuff inside that old code -- then yeah, it will piss folks off like nothing else. P5 was a drop in the bucket for people getting pissed off at CL. I've already ordered my Popcorn truck. They said it would take a couple months just to make the new tank on the cement mixer...

ynsaen, If one team is doing ALL of that, then it'll never get done. I can't see them doing anything with PoserArtist, except maybe taking PP and calling it PoserArtist 2. Fixing the bugs in P5 and calling it P6 is just plain insulting. I hope for better with the new parent company. A new program requiring new cash for what was advertised and promised for P5 is the worst kind of fraud. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE P5. I'd like it much more if it did everything they told us it would do to get our pre-release money. I'd like it even better if promised content was ever delivered. I have hopes that the new parent will take a firm hand in the P6 development, and invest in making it what it could be. You're right about exploited bugs though. Hopefully, those bugs will be redefined as "enhancements" and standardized. That's a wonderful old management trick I learned early in my programming career. Something doesn't work to spec? Call it an enhancement and teach the used the EASY workaround. In a week they don't want it changed. One thing though, anyone who lived through the whole pre-release fiasco with P5, and the "public beta", would have to be a complete idiot to buy it for a couple of months. I'm stocking up on my popcorn and soapboxes now, although I don't expect to need them for a year. This is going to be better than "Days of our Lives" and "Dark Shadows" combined. Did I just show my age?

ynsaen, If one team is doing ALL of that, then it'll never get done. I can't see them doing anything with PoserArtist, except maybe taking PP and calling it PoserArtist 2. Fixing the bugs in P5 and calling it P6 is just plain insulting. I hope for better with the new parent company. A new program requiring new cash for what was advertised and promised for P5 is the worst kind of fraud. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE P5. I'd like it much more if it did everything they told us it would do to get our pre-release money. I'd like it even better if promised content was ever delivered. I have hopes that the new parent will take a firm hand in the P6 development, and invest in making it what it could be. You're right about exploited bugs though. Hopefully, those bugs will be redefined as "enhancements" and standardized. That's a wonderful old management trick I learned early in my programming career. Something doesn't work to spec? Call it an enhancement and teach the used the EASY workaround. In a week they don't want it changed. One thing though, anyone who lived through the whole pre-release fiasco with P5, and the "public beta", would have to be a complete idiot to buy it for a couple of months. I'm stocking up on my popcorn and soapboxes now, although I don't expect to need them for a year. This is going to be better than "Days of our Lives" and "Dark Shadows" combined. Did I just show my age?