yeah but $16 is $16 here or there I think that you missed his point. So. $16 here will buy me a steak dinner $16 there will buy me a streak dinner

ok you missed the point on the book prices. forget conversion of currency. look at it in real terms, eg the money in your wallet right now. standard wage in the UK 150. the book (paperback of say Jurassic Park) costs $5.99. now compare that to the US of Ca prices where they are at 8.99 and 10.99! in real terms they are MORE expensive than the UK book. stupid thing is, the US and CA are cheaper than the UK on everything else. I bought the jeans I'm now wearing at Walmart for $20. the same pair would have cost me 80 in the UK. (gotta love the mark up on a pair of wranglers!) as to being there? how can we both be right? I know I am. you say you are. my figures are based on suppling the machines per job with ink and paper (plus the allowed wastage) and taking the resulting material to each stage,(cutting, binding), wrapping the pallets and shipping 'em out to the trucks. where's the fault? different countries? working at different times of the year? different (book)markets?

"yeah but $16 is $16 here or there I think that you missed his point. $16 here will buy me a steak dinner. $16 there will buy me a steak dinner" I don't follow that either. If your figures are right, the UK book costs nearly two steak dinners while the US book costs only (say) 1.7 steak dinners.

yay! you got it! thats exactly right same book, but the value (not the cost) is different.

It doesn't really matter how much money they make or don't make off the book. I'm sure no one is questioning how much CGTalk makes off of Expose. The question is did people get commissions from the first book? Did ad agencies pick out people from that book? What was the success rate? How many copies were sold? I think it's really the blind trust that is at play here on whether the submission fee will be worth the risk. If Expose charged, I doubt there would be an uproar, because it is well known in the industry and you can't buy that kind of exposure. Renderosity is less known in those circles and thus it's more of a gamble.

Khai, I think what you're getting at is that books are relatively more expensive here in the US than they are in the UK when compared to a pair of jeans. Same goes for electronics, whiskey, and quite a lot else, which are cheaper here. Books in the US are, however, relatively cheap when compared to, for example, green vegetables, potatoes, and a whole bunch of other things. Overall, the cost of living between the two countries seems to work out roughly the same if you ignore medical insurance, which shoots up the US cost of living unbelievably. Even so, because mean wage levels are higher, for most people a book represents a smaller percentage of their net disposable income than is the case in the UK. That's why mass-market paperbacks are a major part of the book scene in the UK, whereas in the US they're a relatively small part: in the US, hardbacks aren't a luxury item. OK, now if a book costs $25, the publisher will receive on average something like $10 per copy sold through bookstores, and about half that for copies sold through book clubs or as a co-edition. The net return is less than that, because the publisher has to pay shipping cost. Because booksellers exploit the sale-or-return option ruthlessly (and in my opinion often dishonestly), something like 25% of the copies you think you've sold to bookstores come back to you, at your shipping expense, and many of these are unfit for reselling. The unit cost per copy of a $25 illustrated book is likely to be in the $4-$5 range, assuming it's been printed in the Far East (which probably most of them these days are). Oh, yeah, and you shouldn't forget the costs of the fact that booksellers, book clubs and everybody else take as long as they possibly can before they pay you, and sometimes they never do. Adding all of that lot up, you can see that your simple math of $25 x 10,000 copies = (Wow!) $250,000 doesn't look so juicy or healthy after all. These figures don't apply to the new Stephen King or John Grisham novel, where the first print-run is astronomical and the origination costs are virtually zero. But they do apply to the average illustrated book, of which this is one.

I worked for a huge publisher for 7 years and many of their print runs (school textbooks) are around 4000-7000. I've seen how they work out their figures before a project is approved. If you don't think you're going to sell 10,000 copies, there's no point in printing that many even if the unit cost is lower. You'd end up paying for thousands of books you'll never sell (books that cost money to warehouse) and your overall profit on the project is lower.

Nothing in life is free. I dont mind the fee. Its cheap, considered what can come out of it. When i got in Expos, i recieved two commissions and a job offer from Meteor Studios, and even though Exposis free, i would pay if it were required. It would be a little money well spent. What i find to be slightly odd with this one though, is that they only accept previously unpublished artwork, which neither Spectrum nor Exposdo. Why? Usually when artists release their best work, it gets picked up and published by magazines, books etc pretty quickly. By not accepting previously published artwork, you rule out most of the best images out there. Just a thought.

No offence, Rochr - in fact, take this as a compliment: that $20 is not quite as much of a gamble for you as it is for most of us. :)

"Nothing in life is free." Exactly. So why should Renderosity get free content for a book that will make them some big profit anyway ? It doesnt matter if they make $1 or $250.000 profit. It doesnt matter if everybody else does it. The only thing that matters is that it is just NOT RIGHT.

Marblecloud, Ok, thanx, ill take that as a compliment. :) But i still think its a cheap and easy way for an artist to get exposure. Its a gamble, sure, but it can also pay of. Just think of all the freebie jobs, that may or may not give us exposure. A lot of work behind those jobs, and most of the times, for basically nothing. They do cost as well, not in cash, but in time. Steelrat2, I understand your point, but i seriously doubt theyre going to make much profit out of it. Just take the Exposseries as an example. Theyre expensive as hell, yet they just barely make it go around. And whats left of the profit, they use to keep CG Networks, and the CGTalk forums going. Thats something each member are benefited of. I personally spend a lot of time here at Renderosity, and if its the same case here, i wouldnt mind paying a few $$ to help keeping these forums going. Just a personal opinion though. :)

They do cost as well, not in cash, but in time. Whereas this will cost in money AND in time, since it has to be a previously unpublished work. ;-) bonni

Very true. And thats one rule i find to be very strange. :) (post 59)

We all know who is considered excellent artists at Rosity and they are indeed, but it's a lot harder when not on that list and gain favor especially if one isn't known in the proper circles. True that shadowind

I still want to know who will be doing the judging. I think that factors considerably into anyone's decision to enter. If the judges are professional artists not connected with the site that's one thing. If it will be Admins, Mods, or Members, that's something else entirely, something that would give me serious reservations about spending $20 or more to enter.

That's a point. The judges should be known. Most publications list who their judges are.

Rochr, I wasn't doubting whether people got commissions from Expose. As I said, CGTalk is one of the leaders in the industry. The book I was referring to was Renderosity's first book. I think it would go a long way toward making their point about charging if there was some success stories told about the artists in that one. Congrats about getting into Expose. Very well deserved...

The book I was referring to was Renderosity's first book. I think it would go a long way toward making their point about charging if there was some success stories told about the artists in that one.

Clarification about 'Renderosity's first book' -- "Digital Art for the 21st Century: Renderosity" was not published BY Renderosity. It was published by AAPPL and HarperCollins Publishers.

Nor, in fact, did Renderosity have very much to do with it except to grant (quite graciously, I might add) us permission to use their trademarked community name on the cover, and also provided the information about this fine community to include in the book as well.

It was the community members themselves that give us the basis for our first group of selected artists (all members of Renderosity, of course!).

And, the book was really a result, just as it says in the introduction, of John Grant and myself realizing that there was plenty of room for a serious treatment worthy of any fine artist's coffee table. Most of what we'd seen really hadn't made a dent in trying to introduce the non-computer-savvy to all the wonderful styles and "things" you can create using your computer as an artistic medium.

The book, incidentally, has garnered good reviews all around, even from reviewers like Locus. So, personally, I am tickled to death with how it's been going so far :-)

So, why are things being changed if they went so well with the first book ?? --Rebekah--

Audre, Please don't think I'm questioning the quality of the book that you worked on. I'm not. I know that you do quality work with your work on the magazine and from what I've seen of the book, there is no doubt that it was a wonderful addition to anyone's collection and I have seen the good reviews it got. I'm not questioning the quality of the artists selected for the book either, as they were all marvelous. The question though is whether it's publication had an impact for digital artists in the area of advertising and commission work or did it wind up coffee table material? There is no track record to justify the cost, which is why you are hearing all this I think. I would be glad to pay Expose $20 a shot (if I was at the quality they looked for) for a chance to be in their book. It has a track record of getting commissions and jobs. Rosity's book doesn't as of yet. That's not to say that it won't, but it's like playing the lottery without knowing the odds. If I were Rosity, I would have produced this first book with chosen artists without the submission fee, got a track record together and then charged for the second book if it did well in regards to success stories. Right now, it's just asking the members to fund a chance for a chance for a chance. ShadowWind

Rebekah, ShadowWind,

I certainly can't afford (as much as I'd love to) send out a copy of the first book to thousands of art directors. Neither can John, AAPPL, or Renderosity fund such a thing using traditional book publishing models, I'm sure. Using the juried contest method with gasp entry fees (like Spectrum, et al.) is a fairly logical way to help insure that every one of those copies slated for art directors really does make it into their hands.

(To me, it's just that straight forward and simple of an answer. I don't particularly have a problem with paying for a Juried Exhibit where I have to compete for space. Professional illustrators / artists face this type of thing day in, and day out anyway, where the client has access to hundreds of thousands of people willing to work for cheaper or even free on the internet, just a click away. If one can't get used that kind of pressure, then they are probably better off not quitting that day job and should consider art as hobby instead. shrug)

If I were Rosity, I would have produced this first book with chosen artists without the submission fee, got a track record

Oh, but they already have established a track record of producing VERY high quality, excellent content publications. "Renderosity Magazine" blew quite a few doors off at Siggraph the first year it showed up there, and had quite a few of the other CG magazine folks scrambling to find out more about this community. It was a great thing, that opened up a whole new universe for this community in the eyes of the 'outside' world.

As for previous posts comparing Renderosity's to CGTalk's method of book funding/promotion etc... C'mon people, you know this aint CGTalk! This is Renderosity, where the bottom-tier software is as welcome as the top and hobby artists get the same consideration as professionals. -- Sadly, this is probably what makes it unlikely that Renderosity could use the same model at this time.

(Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I love my Poser, Bryce, UltraFractal, XenoDream, insert your favorite inexpensive software title here. I am fully aware of the stigma attached to work that is known to use these apps. I am also quite familiar with the professional resistance people who dont use the 'industry standard' software get from their fellow professionals. And, I really believe that this same resistance translates to this entire community as well. At present, hiring professionals just don't take the Renderosity community as seriously as they should for a viable pool of new, and mature, talent.)

While this new book will undoubtedly be as lavish and finely printed as the first, make a wonderful coffee table book, and will show up in book stores too... it is really (from what I gather) meant to be a way for this community to show off its talent to professionals in the CG industry first and fine art coffee table book after that criteria is satisfied.

But then, hey, I may be totally wrong -- Maybe this IS all an evil plot by the short-sighted, nefarious warlords of Renderosity to take advantage, rape, pillage and otherwise abuse its community members. :-)

audre

Renderosity Magazine" blew quite a few doors off at Siggraph the first year it showed up there, and had quite a few of the other CG magazine folks scrambling to find out more about this community

I neglected to add that, as a direct result of how highly regarded that first publication was, Renderosity was able to get a permanent gallery into other CG magazines which it used to showcase and promote the talent of its members each and every month!

There's a list around here somewhere, I think, that goes through all the artists that got professional, world wide exposure because of the efforts for the Renderosity staff in either their own magazine or working with the commissioning editors of the other CG magazines around the world.

I'm not sure how many other communities do that for their members. Does anyone know of of any? (I know Epilogue.net is growing and working on publications of it's own, but they are decidedly anti-CG...) I'd be curious to find out (yes, and visit chuckle) those other communities that do such things for their members, for sure.

thanks
audre

Cripes, pardon the third in a row post.. but I'd be curious to find out if anyone knows how many Poser/Bryce/Fractal (eg: low price software)images made it into any of the Expose publications?

Regarding the 2000 plus ad agencies that copies of the book was being sent to someone asked if they were solicited or not ? I don't recall this being answered, but I understand that a lot of unsolicited material is not taken into consideration at the better ad agencies. Anyway, no one is twisting anyone's arm to sign up. We all know that. It just seems wrong to ask people to foot the cost of publishing the book. For example a mere 500 people each enter 1 image at 20 dollars each. That is $10,000. Sure you give some copies away, but copies are going to printed and sold also. Shit, the copies that you give away will probably be a tax write off also. Anyway, if this is an 'Industry' standard practice maybe you guys should go a different route. Shake things up a bit. Hell, let everyone pay a fee to enter. Jury the selection, BUT everyone who entered and helped foot the cost of the book is entitled to a percentage of the profit. That sounds fair. --Rebekah--

Rebekah,

Anyway, if this is an 'Industry' standard practice maybe you guys should go a different route. Shake things up a bit. Hell, let everyone pay a fee to enter. Jury the selection, BUT everyone who entered and helped foot the cost of the book is entitled to a percentage of the profit. That sounds fair.

With all due respect, I find nothing UNfair about the existing method. No one is being hurt. No one is forced into doing anything they don't want to.

Wether or not it will work as planned... well, that remains to be seen. I give them credit for making the effort, anyway, even if it flops horribly (which I doubt, just to be clear).

As for "but I understand that a lot of unsolicited material is not taken into consideration at the better ad agencies. "

I hardly think this is the same class as the unsolicited mail from Joe Blow "just out of college please look at my portfolio" mail that we're usually talking about there.

Clearly, Renderosity has a professional Pubilcity Package that will immediately take it out of that 'unsolicited trash mail' catagory. Business to business correspondances, presented properly, are always taken in differently than the junk mail.

Truly, though, I don't know ANYONE in the art business who would would toss a juicy, well printed, and freshly inked publication into the garbage without at least looking through it ONCE. That's really the best you can hope for with anything. Just once is enough in most cases to make an impression if the material and presentation are sexy enough.

Also, if this bothers anyone so much, my advice is to do your own publication.

If you feel strongly enough and are willing to put YOUR money and time and effort where your mouth is, then start your own revolution and give everyone who entered and helped foot the cost of your book a percentage of the profit.

I don't see what's to stop anyone from succeeding with such a project, if it's really a good, workable solution. Indeed, I would look forward to buying your book, as I'm sure the rest of the folks here would too.

Rebekah, LOL, my, we are both gabby tonght, hey? I wanted to clarify that I am totally, and deadly serious when I suggest you do your own publication. It could work :-) How do you think Renderosity Magazine was born? I believe you will find the staff here quite open to any serious, and well planned proposals you take the time to create and present to them. If you are willing to manage the project and have presented a clear enough business case, I'm sure you could have your own book created exactly the way you want. audre

So put up or shut up ? :) --Rebekah-- see, I can be a woman of words when need be

Again, no one is doubting that the book won't be wonderfully printed and well put together. Yes, they do have a track record that they can publish a good looking publication. So let's not keep going there. I also don't think that this is an evil plot by Rosity to rid people of their money. Rosity has been trying to take steps for awhile now to move into the professional market, but I think that is ill conceived considering the niche they service should be quite profitable in itself.

Rosity is not CGTalk as you eloquently stated. They serve different markets and cater to different audiences. CGTalk caters directly and only to the professional ad agencies and film industry. Their art is very refined toward that goal, and in some cases, even cold of emotion. Rosity's audience are for the most part casual viewers who enjoy seeing pretty art that comes from the heart and soul of the artist. It is this reason I look through here much more than I do CGTalk. This has nothing to do with the talent of the artists, it has to do with the perception and audience that has been developed over the years. It's like the difference between Bob's Art Shoppe in Dallas and the Style Gallery in NYC. Bob's may have some amazing talent that will one day wow them in the big league, but you don't see many NYC high end art afficianados hanging out there. But local people love to buy.

Ironically, this is not only the reason as you say that they cannot justify the price of producing the books like Expose, but it's also the reason why the fee is that much more of a risk that the book may wind up on Ebay instead of kept by the agencies who as you said have a hard time taking Rosity seriously.

I think it's great that Rosity wants to further the concept of digital art in advertising and such, but there is no evidence presented thus far that being in a Rosity publication has brought work for the artists therein and to me, there lies the rub. Even success stories out of the magazine would help in making the potential gain worth the risk.

LOL... well, a rose is a rose by any other name, right? Seriously, though... If you feel strongly about IT (and IT can be anything, really) my advice is to take action about IT. DO something to fix what you perceive is the problem. Sure, blow off steam in the forums and all that, but don't waste that adrenaline and momentum. Carpe Diem - Baby! audre

I crossposted, so that last paragraph is a bit behind the times. That is the kind of stories that need to be told in order to gather up support for the fees rendered (about the book leading to more serious looks into other magazines). I'm not saying that Rosity's book won't be accepted and the artists won't get commissions. I'm not even saying that the fee won't be worth the risk, but you have to show that. From a purely business marketing point of view, if you plan to charge more than more respected places, you have the burden of justifying the benefits of doing so. Rosity has not done a good job of making that case

Actually Audre, if I was asking people to pay submission fees for my book, it would be my job to make sure that I provided them ample justification for those fees. I'm not the one asking, so it's not my job to do so. I am a consumer who is asking questions about what the money means and how it will benefit me. But fine, I said my peace. Back to domain speculation (my new passion). Talk about an industry with blind faith. Spend $100 on a domain name that you hope will earn back that cash...

I'm not saying that Rosity's book won't be accepted and the artists won't get commissions. I'm not even saying that the fee won't be worth the risk, but you have to show that. From a purely business marketing point of view, if you plan to charge more than more respected places, you have the burden of justifying the benefits of doing so. Rosity has not done a good job of making that case Yup. I do agree with you there. As I recall a few of the other folks further up the thread pointed that out, too. So we do all agree that the execution of this was rather clumsy and they lost good momentum and excitement by rushing the play. Let's see if they rally and give us all the more reason to get excited. Although, I do know, first hand, how busy everyone is here... that's probably why I'm sitting here, like a fool, defending them instead of getting much needed rest. So, with that sobering thought -- Enough foolishess from me on this thread. Take care everyone :-) audre

Renderosity Magazine" blew quite a few doors off at Siggraph the first year it showed up there, and had quite a few of the other CG magazine folks scrambling to find out more about this community Then why isn't Renderosity magazine still in print? Either in paper or online? If the magazine proved to be successful, people might be a little less hesitant.

So far the only person who has admitted to being in the first book in this thread is Rochr. Show us some of the 'lower end software' entries, or at least there current existing galleries. Who else is in it? What are you looking for? Do lower end images actually have a chance. ie: Realism=shinny! Is a great Poser pinup acceptable? These kind of answers would really help sort out some of the doubt about paying the fee. Geo

Good luck with the book, who ever is in charge. May your profit margin be high so that next time you can pay the artists. As far as me 'doing' (which in this case means nothing more than using someone else's artwork to make a buck) a book anytime soon. Don't hold your breath :) I have no desire to do that. I merely was trying to clarify the situation and offer up viable options that truely benefited everyone involved. No one has really answered any of questions that have been posed. You, audre, have attempted to help, but since you say that you aren't involved with this book, then it doesn't really help much. Why do I get upset? Because it reeks. Without hardly any explaination other than where to send your money & artwork it comes off as predatory. I understand that the Rendo stance is one of pure altruism and maybe some of the staff members really do believe it. They get the brunt of a lot shit that isn't thier decision to begin or end with. So, guys, don't take it personally. Again, best of luck to Rendo and to all of those who enter. And sorry about your luck to those of you who lose your cash, better luck next time. --Rebekah--

Consider "The American Idol." There are people who enter that competition who are CERTAIN they will be the next American Idol. Yet, when they open their mouths, they sing through twelve different keys and can't hold a note to save their lives. In their own eyes, and in the eyes of their family members, they are FANTASTIC! And they genuinely think they will at least get in the top ten.

By comparison, Renderosity is host to a community of people that is largely made of amateurs and hobbiests. The majority of the art reflects that level of skill, because most in the community are still learning. Each piece they do is the BEST that they can do, but it may not be good enough yet for publication ... because they are still learning.

But, to that end, you'll have a lot of submissions from amateurs and hobbiests who truly believe that their latest picture is absolutely awesome, and who truly believe that they have a shot at getting in. What are the chances that their art will be accepted?

Odds are that Renderosity would select the best examples of art created by this community. But truth be told, the level of art that will get selected for this book would probably have an equal chance at getting selected in other similar books as well. As a result, the art won't really be a fair representation of those who are proud and active members of this community.

The sad part about this whole thing is, that Renderosity only seems interested in doing things for the community when there is profit involved. That's understandable, because it is now more a business than it is a community. But to pass it off as a "chance to get noticed by all kinds of advertising agencies" and charging amateurs and hobbiests for this chance is not really cool.

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 11:00

Just thinking out loud. If as audre says the first book was not sent out to the 2000 art directors, and if it was a completely different book chosen on completely different principles, is it wise to call this 'Volume Two'? Will not the art directors be more willing to take a look at something that is not like a sequel? Would it not be better to start out fresh with a completely new title? 'The Best of Renderosity 2005' - something like that? Just a thought.

geoegress, Actually, im not in the first book at all, only in Expos. However, if it werent for their rule about only accepting previously unpublished scenes, i wouldnt mind submitting one or two images. I just think books like these are good self-advertisement. :)

The sad part about this whole thing is, that Renderosity only seems interested in doing things for the community when there is profit involved. That's understandable, because it is now more a business than it is a community. But to pass it off as a "chance to get noticed by all kinds of advertising agencies" and charging amateurs and hobbiests for this chance is not really cool.

Oh, we're back to that I see... This really isn't so much about the book then, is it? The book appears to be nothing more than a convenient platform for yet another chapter in that tired old diatribe about how horrible Renderosity has become... The big corporate wolf is taking advantage of the poor, down-trodden artists...

So again, my challenge is... if you don't like how something works, change it. IF you are really so sad and angry that things appear this way (that artists are getting taken advantage of), then volunteer your time here and work to get policies changed. Create new projects that don't, in your mind, take advantage of artists. Get a job here and REALLY make a difference with how Renderosity is treating it's members.

Be proactive. As a published author, ArtyMotion, I would think that you of all people would have much to bring to this table! :-)

Audre, as a published author that is exactly why I am speaking out in disfavor.

I've already stated in other threads relating to this project that I have never had to pay anyone to be published. Never.

I was lucky, I suppose. I wrote some online articles, and an editor from a big publishing firm asked me if I would be interested in doing a chapter for a book. That led to a long string of books, and eventual burnout ... which is why I'm back to art.

As an artist, I will readily admit that the stills I do are nowhere near "published art book" quality, so I wouldn't pay to enter any art competition. It's a given in my mind that I won't make it (LOL).

However ... I am not speaking out because I don't think I won't get published in this art book. I am speaking out because there will be a lot of disappointed people in this community, those who paid that entry fee with high hopes. Here, in the community, they get lots of "atta boys" and "That image is WONDERFUL!" But they don't get the constructive criticism from the trained and educated eye that will look at this book. THIS is the point I was trying to get at in my previous message, and when I tried to go back and edit it, it was too late.

As I said earlier, this community includes MANY who are just learning. In this little community they are told they do wonderful work ... and so they pay the entry fee believing that those images are the best things they've ever done, and they have high hopes. In fact, their images may show great promise, but they aren't quite "ready for prime time."

That is why I think it's wrong to expect members of this community to pay the entry fee. Many of them can't AFFORD to pay these fees, because of the very fact that they ARE amateurs or hobbiests. These feelings have been behind every post I have made on this topic.

Renderosity is a business. They have more to gain, and they also have more funds at hand than the artists in this community. I'm not trying to speak out AGAINST Renderosity, I am trying to speak out FOR the members of this community.

If that makes me a bad person, then I guess I'll have to be a bad person. 8-)

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 15:20

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 15:27

OK ... here is a response that is a little more proactive. Take part of the entry fees and put it toward prizes (maybe a first, second, and third prize). At least then, there is a little bit more of an incentive for people to submit, and the prize winners will have something more than a book that is worth less than what he or she paid to enter.

ArtyMotion,

bol glad I hit refresh before I posted my reply. Now I have to severly edit what I was typing. grin But I'm happy to do so.

I think that's a great idea. Certainly, spice up the pot a bit with more incentives and reasons for people to take a chance.

In addition, maybe make better use of this huge website and gobs of click traffic by providing links to galleries of all the artists accepted. Kindof like the Artist of the Month thingy. Keep those links somewhere on the menu bar for a year or until the next volume comes out or something... Ater all, exposure is the name of the game.

audre

See? I'm not so bad. My heart's in the right place. ;-

A little to the left of center in your ribcage?

That sounds about right. 8-)

1. Re: Open "Call to Artists" by audre on 2/5/05 02:58 With all due respect, I find nothing UNfair about the existing method. No one is being hurt. No one is forced into doing anything they don't want to. Yes some people are hurt. And yes there is something unfair about it. Those individuals who don't have an extra 20 bucks + to shill out, are left out in the cold and not even considered, despite the fact that some of them have been coming here to this site and supporting it for many years. Although I am sure alot of people around here are not aware of it, some of the artists here that are helping some of the merchants as well as this site to stay afloat by buying products have to save up for a couple of months to do so. Why, so they can support the community. But in doing this this way, your simply saying, YOU ARE NOT WORTHY enough to even get mentioned or any kind of exposure through us, because you'r poor. Its simple as that.

BDC

If you can afford an internet connection, a computer to connect to the internet with, and the software to create stuff to even enter into this contest, then, check me if I'm wrong, but you should have $20 stashed away somewhere that you can scrounge up from even your penny-jar.

Heck, if you send me yor income tax statement and can prove that you are truly destitute, I may cough up the $20 for you even if it means macaroni and cheese for me, for a week. I've been known to host artist's art sites for free, until they can get established, so this isn't all that different, I suppose.

HOWEVER, if you have ANY luxury items such as coffee, soda/pop, cereal, automobile, or even buy your lunch at the cafeteria instead of making it yourself, then $20 can be saved by cutting some of these things out of your life for a while.

I'm not independantly wealthy, and as a starving artist myself you are preaching to the choir about pinching pennies. I'm quite well aware of how difficult it is, thank you very much, to pay for things.

In spite of all that, however, I still don't see the problem here.

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 14:25

Ummm...so, he can scrounge up $20 to get possibly absolutely nothing in return if his image isn't selected by the jury? That is a gamble and when pinching pennies as much as some people are, a gamble is never wise. --Rebekah-- BTW--demanding to see someone's income tax return is VERY insulting

Rebekah

LOL -- you win. UNCLE!! UNCLE!!

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 15:06

oooohh...what do I win ? The fabulous door prize ? A year supply of Turtle Wax? A ceramic Dalmation ?? --Rebekah--