i know the final still isn't great, but like i said in the subject line, this is good practice for me. shutter speed...ah well...you can see i messed that up. and his hands are critical part of the image. sigh I'll do better next time.

I'm gonna continue to experiment with this one and see what else i can come up with.

I want advice on cropping. I dunno, i'm not satisfied with the cropping of my "final" product.

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 21:11

please let me know what you think...what you like and don't like.

and what do you think about crop? maybe i should just do without the fram and leave it open???

thanks for your input, guys!!!! p.s. i think it needs to be a bit darker, don't you?

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 21:18

I like the movement in the hand, makes the image less static. As far as composition you have the "Triangle" with the hands and face. This is good! TMG

If you have photoshop, you might take a look at the filter->extract option. This makes this kind of operation much easier. Although this image might be a tough one for that. Another option is to paint your selection via the quickmask.

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 23:06

TMG, hmmm, i'll have to read about that "triangle" thing. I'm not familiar with that. I just wish i would've done his hands right. I'm glad you like it though. thanks!!! 3DGuy...too bad i don't have Photoshop....sigh

I love the white contrast/background work you did, and the contrast adjustment is most-cool. Makes for a cool image. -Peace/Jeff :-)

I can see you've worked hard on this... I do like the movement of the hand & contrast... might be helpful to look up some tuts on PSP (even here, there's a JascPSP forum & tuts) to find a way that will work better for you as there's several ways in removing a background or selecting an object)
Depending on what kind of music he plays, maybe you can find a background that emanates it :] & the "triangle" is a basic of composition theory, looking at your image in the geometric sense, see if there's balance

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 01:53

Now thats a lot of work removing the background. try using the Wand in PSP, still takes a lot of work but it helps. Well I find it does. (PSP 7.2). I spend hours removing backgrounds in PSP, still ahve not found fool proof way yet. Keep it up. Nice work. Steve

copy/paste : I can see you've worked hard on this... I do like the movement of the hand & contrast. What about the bottle ?

Actually the shutter speed is fine.... I like the movement of the hand and exposure is good. The final image is good! The third image in BW has wonderful tones.... All that being said, I think there are a couple of things that could have been done in camera which would save you lots of time in postwork though. You didn't say which settings you used. So basically I'm just guessing here, judging what I see. :~) Get in closer, by either physically moving in or zooming in with the lens... there is a lot of distractions in the background, too much space above his head, and not enough below. His foot got chopped off for example. The building being in such great focus, makes me think that you used a fairly small aperture. Try opening that aperture way up to blur up the background, that would help too.... I think had the background been sufficiently less distracting all of the postwork could have essentially been avoided all together. Then you could desaturate and do whatever artistic/fun things you wanted to do. Just my 2 cents And merely meant to help....

Don't remove the bottle ! He will look more like a musician :-)

Have to agree with the others I think the shutter speed is just perfect - I like the hand movement(blur). I think it is a brilliant first attempt and I agree with Michelle about depth of field issues and aperture - try shooting on aperture priority, so setting your depth of field, let shutter speed sort itself out, adjusting ISO if necessary.

The final result is great....and yep....tedious work for the Arthritic... Alice B.Toklas helps :]

Wow, guys!! Thanks so much for all the great information and ideas!! Cindy, thanks for explaining about the "triangle theory" of compo! I got a lot of great ideas about 3 months ago about how to remove a background and/or select an object. Click Here to see that thread! I'm really ashamed to admit that i still have a lot of problems with this despite all ya'all's (sorry for deep southern slang) help. i do roll out my images really big as Brenda suggested. Trying to use that silly lasso thing is hard for me. snakey said: "I again would use the lasso tool to draw a neat outline around areas like the pole and hair line." Well, i can't draw a neat outline around those areas with a mouse to save my soul. i really think i need to use a tablet and pen, but kemal says there's some kind of problem with my USB ports or something and it may not work so good. anyway, maybe i should try to find some tutorial. Also that's a cool idea about the background matching the type of music he sings. I will think about that, Cindy!!!! Thanks!! maybe i can make something unusual that way! hmmmm, everyone seems to like the bottle and the hand??? thanks for telling me. i'll think about that! hands are important to me to do right. i keep looking at it and feel like i could have done it better. i'm really, really picky when it comes to hands. Michelle, you're absolutely right...there were sooooo many distractions in this. and there were also 3 dogs running around. and one lady was a wee bit tipsy and staggering around. i was really nervous about taking these pics, and i didn't pay enough attention to composition before i took this shot. i so much appreciate your 2 cents (and everyone else's), and believe me I'm happy when you guys tell me how to improve my images!! i never take any offense so don't give it a second thought to just tell me what you think. Richard, i will do that. i've taken some other shots like that, but i felt a little awkward. i just need to experiment under conditions that less stressful (dogs and tipsy lady! LOL). I'll give a whirl next time though and see what happens. Brian/Sylvaine: who are Alice B. Toklas and Casta Diva? It's a beautiful image, Sylvaine!!! Thanks so much guys for all the feedback on this. Ya'all gave me a lot to think about, and I really appreciate it!!! I hope I will see improvements in my work next time!!! Hugz, sheila

when I use the lasso tool in PSP I use the "point-to-point" setting to cut my image out, works so much better then trying to draw around it freehand...
putting the beer bottle in there is a good idea... select, copy, paste as new layer, remove the access, merge...
Alice B. Toklas brownies!! enhanced for your pleasure :d

Alice B.Toklas....eases the Arthritis...nudge nudge...say no more... Casta Diva...hmmmm perhaps Me :] btw, Cynlee...I just see what You write about the Lasso Tool...though I am Elements...I have never used it....perhaps I should try it out.

Wow, Cindy, I just found that "point-to-point" setting, and man, what a difference it makes!!!! Jeesh, good to know this stuff!!!!!!!! I've been trying to draw around everything freehand, and that's REALLY hard because if you mess up, you gotta stop and do it all over. It's been driving me batty!!!!!! Thanks soooooo much for telling me about that!!! hugest hugz This will save me HOURS of work! and thanks for telling me how to put in the beer bottle! Well, brownies sound yummmmmy!!!! I'll take two please! :)

"point-to-point" is a cool tool, but it leaves you with a series of straight lines that make up your outline. I still prefer the pen tool to outline objects (it takes a bit of practice to really get ahold of, but in the end, it is a whole lot easier). Let's say you wanted to outline a circulare object - turns into a pain in the butt with a lasso tool (click click click etc, etc.) - with the pen tool, you can outline a perfect circle with four click and drags - and if it's not perfect, you can go back and tweak the outline after the fact. You can even create multiple outlines and shift-click to select two, three - however many outlines you want. Another thing I've found that works for me - outlining hair (when it's fairly flat, it's not such a big deal - but when it's frizzy - woof!. I'll take the pen tool and outline an area outside of the hairline, select that outline and paste it into a new layer, then create a fairly small, extremely narrow brush and delete sections of the hair, rotating the brush every now and then, which leaves a frizzy sort of outline. The neat thing about Photoshop is that there are several ways to accomplish the same thing - and it's a matter of what's most efficient for the individual user - but explore all the possibilities. Wolf

hi wolf! oh, i agree with you completely about the pen tool! we have a tablet and pen but there's some problem with installing it on my PC...something about USB ports. but i'm thinking, since our computers are on a network, i'm thinking i should be able to access my images from his computer. i might have to try jumpin' in his chair these days and givin' it a whirl!!! oh...that frizzy hair stuff you talk about. what a pain! Sounds like you really have a handle on it though!! i don't have photoshop, but i'm still trying to learn all the tricks in PSP7. thanks so much for telling all this Wolf!!!!! I really appreciate it!!! ;)

A tablet would be great - but that wasn't what I was referring to. If you don't have Photoshop, then this may be completely useless information, but I was referring to the "pen tool" as part of the Photoshop tool bar. Have you every played around with Adobe Illustrator of Freehand? The pen tool is kinda a tool used with vector- graphic applications, but embedded into Photoshop. (if you're not familiar, a "vector graphic" is a graphic that is comprised more of computer information rather than pixels - in other words....with a pixel-based application a circle is created with a group of pixels clumped into a ball that resembles a circle - the higher the resolution of the file, the finer the image of a circle is...but it's comprised of blocks. With a "vector" illustration, the computer looks at the mathematical equations of points placed around what will become a circle and draws the image mathematically - meaning that you can take that image and resize it to whatever size you want, and the initial file is very small. The "Pen Tool" in Photoshop borrows that capability and applies it to a raster (pixel-created) image. The kicker is - the outline that you create with the pen tool maintains its "vector" quality - so if you do your outline with the pen tool, and then resize your image - you outline path reflects the size change without degradation (because it's vector!) I know - all of this is as clear as mud - IM me and I will explain a bit better Wolf

Your explanation is helping me too Wolf! I'm getting a clearer sense of vectors & rasters now... PSP's lasso tool point-to-point was the easiest for me to use (with the object zoomed in really big) but will have to explore more in PS the pen tool's capabilities...

Oh geee... So many good suggestions here. What is the musician trying to say with his music? Can you enhance that with the photo? Picking the setting. Live performance. Empty beach. Coffee house. I think technically he will like what you have done. Good straightforward pic of a nice guy playing the guitar. Musicians need this for their portfolio. I KNOW you, Sheila, are capable of feeling deep emotion. Find out what these musicians want to say!

found the pen tool! never used it before :/ so you make the points around the image, move it around, then right click, select, new image?

Well - ermm...make points around the image - but, when there;s a curve to negotiate, click and drag in the opposite direction, and a curve will form around your image. (Enable the "rubber band" option to see a line where the outline area will occur. Even without taking advantage of he "bezier (SP?) curve" capabilities of the pen tool - you still have the "point-to-point" significance of the lasso tool, but it gives you the ability to modify the outline after the fact (go to the "PATHS" window - save that path with whatever name (double click on it and name it), and then you can create a whole new path. Then (and this is really cool), you can save the image as a Photoshop EPS with paths, or (if you're a Mac user), save it as a pict (after creating an additional channel), and the image will import into various applications, such as InDesign, Quark, Premier, After Effects, etc - and the outline is carried with the file - so you can outline a picture of yourself, and superimpose just the outline onto whatever background you want - either in a still or a video. One of the differences between outlining with the lasso tool and the pen tool, is that the pen tool creates an outline that can be used by other applications - the lasso tool is stuck inside of Photoshop (great for "basic" outlining, but a poor choice for a serious outline - in my opinion) Wolf

OK - let's go ballistic...

opposite direction, ok... the curves were a little crazy... take a little getting use to... nice to know, thank you very much for this info wolf!! :]

i remember that!! you dropped in the sky? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh! would never have known :]

Yup - the curves are a bit nuts - but once you get ahold oft hem, the world becomes a whole lot easier. The point directly opposite from where you drag is the magnet that draws the curves towards them - takes a bit of getting used to.

Actually - no - the sky was there - but thank you for playing! You win the weekly "ATTABOY" prize!!! (In all seriousness - the sky was the sky - no manipulation)

don't confuse me... i've alread learned my quota for the day! you really did help clarify vectors & rasters for me, even though I read about it before, but the lightbulb went off this time in my head :]

Thanks, I have learned more about PSP in one thread than would ever got out the manual. Hate reading manuals. I'm off to practice. Thanks all.

Wolf, thanks for explaining and clarifying about that "pen" tool! yup, i thought you were talking about using a pen to draw around the object freehand on a tablet. unfortunately, i don't have Photoshop. I think i understand about vector and raster. kemal explained it to me awhile back, but i get confused sometimes. Raster would be like text within an image? maybe i reversed them. i hate manuals too. i really do. i learn best if someone shows me something. then i write down instructions. then i watch again. then i do it myself. Anyway, thanks so much again for explaining and showing how to do all this stuff. too bad i don't have photoshop. :( Misha, you make great suggestions! I like what you're challenging me to do, and i will definitely give it a whirl. I don't know Mitch. I've seen him around but that's it. He came across to me as laid back and friendly. he's wasn't shy a bit. I'll see what i can do, Misha!!! thanks for challenging me!

hey guys! there's a pen tool in PSP!!, 2nd from the bottom on the tool pad... works similar to that of PS, still figuring out all the right click options... just never used that one before because I didn't understand it... "draws lines, poly lines, point to point & freehand" ...also below it is the "object selection tool" used on vector objects :]

from PSP help:

"About Raster and Vector Graphics
Computer graphics are of two types: raster (also called bitmap) or vector. With Paint Shop Pro, you create both raster and vector images. You can also create an image with both raster and vector layers. Its important to understand the differences between the two data types.

Raster Images
Raster images are composed of individual elements, called pixels, arranged in a grid. Each pixel has a specific location and color. If you magnify raster data, you can see the individual pixels as squares of colors.

An object in a raster image is defined by its pixels. For example, the front door in an image of a house is made up of a mosaic of pixels at certain locations in the image. In bitmap images you edit pixels rather than objects or shapes.

Raster images can display subtle changes in tones and colors, so they are most often used for images like photographs and digital artwork. Raster images contain a fixed number of pixels, so when you magnify the image you are magnifying the display size of the pixels. As a result, raster images can display jagged rather than smooth edges if magnified on screen or printed at a large magnification.

Vector Graphics
Vector graphics or images use geometric characteristicslines, curves, and their locationsto define objects. For example, a door in a graphic of a house is made up of a rectangle with a certain width and height at a specific location and filled with a certain color. In vector images you edit objects or shapes rather than pixels.

Vector graphics do not lose clarity or detail when scaled to any size or printed at any resolution. They work well for technical illustrations or corporate logos.

Choosing Raster or Vector
In Paint Shop Pro, you create and edit raster and vector data on separate layers. With some tools you create raster data (like brush strokes with the Paint tool) and with other tools (like the Text and Preset Shapes tools) you can choose whether you want to create raster or vector data.

In general, use vector objects when youll need to edit the object as an element separate from other parts of the image. For example, if you add a star to an image, you may want to change its size, color or location. This is easier if the star is a vector object. You can create raster data on separate layers so you can easily edit or move them.

To apply tools or commands to vector objects that work only on raster data (such as the painting tools or the effects commands), you can create a raster selection of a vector object. Then, paste the selection to a new raster layer. " Wolf, I liked your description of what a vector was better

Message edited on: 02/08/2005 13:56

Thanks for all this information, Cindy! i will have to try that pen tool one day. I will save this link and come back later. maybe i can try Wolf's idea and see if it works well for me!