Perusing the newsletter over my pre-bolt-out-the-door cuppa, and nearly choked on it (sorry guys, no luck ];-)). Why ? Because Spike's DVD is now "the underground art movie "The Best of Renderosity". " While I may applaud the effort trying to market the movie, it's hardly underground - despite the fact it's published outside the mainstream, it has mainstream appeal, Rendo has always catered to the lowest common denominator so please, do us all a favour and come off it, this is just a little -too- ludicrous. "Underground : produced or published outside the establishment especially by the avant-garde or relating to the avant-garde underground" I can see the above fit in real well with the family values ToS. ~S (Spike, no offense to you or any of the artists in the film intended - it's the phrasing more than the art., 'k ? )

Underground? Avant-garde? But here on Renderosity that means "few page views, no comments". I think we should be thanking the PTB for publishing a DVD of all the overlooked work that people contribute to the site day after day, for so little recognition. Well done Renderosity for championing the abstract artists, the thoughtful, the challenging, those artists that express an emotional state and resist catering to the tits-out-for-the-boys brigade. What a change from all those dreary, derivative sci-fi and fantasy scenes that clog up the galleries. My faith in this great site is refreshed - I feel a song coming on! "Oh, what a beee-oo-tiful mornin', oh what a beautiful day..."

Oh God, not another one of the "I love Rendo" crowd. cambert, I am sure you mean well, but you are putting the annual (?) Rendo DVD on par with i.e luminaries like Adam Infanticide, Pavel Filonov or Duchamp - I doubt Rendo would actively push an image of a ceramic urinal out to it's users. Oh, well. I'll just make a tickled pink nekkid Vikki and call it Accelerating the Evolution of Dadaism... };-) ~S

I doubt Rendo would actively push an image of a ceramic urinal out to it's users.

Have you seen the Maya/Max/Rhino galleries? Rendering the local public lav is practically a rite of ...erm... passage. Eighty-eight years after Duchamp gave us his urinal, the 3D community continues to honour the founding greats of modern art. And, never forget, Renderosity is the huge online FOUNTAIN of that community! All that fellow-feeling and pull-together spirit that showers down on us originates here. What's not to love?

Umm... I'm not into golden showers.

Attached Link: http://www.artmetropole.com/popups/exhibits/exhibits_03/water/water3.htm

Attached Link: http://www.davearcher.com/story.html

Apparently it got your attention...good-bad-or otherwise.

Considering the definition is "...produced or published outside the establishment" and we by no means produced this in Hollywood - which is typically considered the movie "establishment" - I think it's fitting.

It has a strong base of fans (other than the featured artists themselves) that thoroughly enjoyed the movie. However, compared to the number of members on the site, is still not a widely known treasure. Thank you for mentioning it in here.

For those that would like to see what our difference of opinion is about, check it out for yourself:

"The Best of Renderosity" - The Movie

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Best regards,
LillianH
Renderosity Marketing and Promotions

It got my attention due to the inaneness and the inappropriate usage of the phrase.

If you really have to use big phrases like that, at least know your bloody genres, ok ? "Underground" or "Avant Garde" is NOT solely defined by the fact its outside of Hollywood. If your conceptual scope is that narrow, and your grasp of dictionaries is that feeble, Rendo scares me more that I thought it did.

Are you really the kind of marketeer who thinks all PR is good PR ?

~S
(edit for typo)

Message edited on: 02/24/2005 15:44

Hi! there cambert, when did you arrive back in town? Miles of smiles

Ah, good -- I might as well jump into this thread. That way, we can spread the love all around.........

Clearly, the concept of urinals as art illustrates the true greatness of (insert any obscure artist's name here) -- after all, among a certain crowd, urinals are more commonly to be found than NVIATWAS in a Poser gallery.

Other things that are located "underground":

1. Worms
2. Snakes
3. Gophers
4. Corpses

BTW -- a note to those that are stupid enough to run hugely successful websites -- obviously, you know nothing about anything -- you should hang your collective heads in shame.

Oh, yeah......gold and diamonds are sometimes found underground, too.

But those things are rare: and therefore the more prized.

Unfortunately, worms and corpses seem to be more common.

Hate to tell you this Xeno, but Rendo was doing pretty well before Lillian came aboard - and the site's success is not the issue, marketing something as something it isn't ~is~. So, back to my question: Is any attention good attention ? ~S

It's done pretty well since Lillian's come aboard, too.

As for the Question Of The Moment:

I would question the question.

Should they weep like a witness on the stand before Perry Mason......and confess to various undefined crimes?

GUILTY! THEY ARE GUILTY!

If not of the crime of misusing the vague term "underground", then surely they are guilty of something else.........something equally terrible.

Surely -- something will stick. It has to. Sooner or later.

Let's re-group, and throw again......

Oh, well -- I need to go buy an item at Costco. They sell lots of stuff there -- cheap.

Popular place. It must be awful to attract so many people to your business.

Bye, my friends -- for the moment.

;-)

Oh my - the outpatients are out in force, I see. ~S

Attached Link: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=inaneness

If you really have to use big phrases like that, at least know your bloody genres, ok ? "Underground" or "Avant Garde" is NOT solely defined by the fact its outside of Hollywood. If your conceptual scope is that narrow, and your grasp of dictionaries is that feeble, Rendo scares me more that I thought it did."*

In light of criticism, I just couldn't resist. I knew that word didn't look right. ;)
Why so much venom? It's not like they claimed it wasn't "art".

the outpatients are out in force

That's true.

Several of them.

Attached Link: http://www.google.com/search?q=inaneness

Xenophonz, relax. Put your feet up for a moment. Make yourself a nice milky drink. Stroke a pet.
All that happened here is that Spinner questioned how a product was being advertised and we had a little sport at the expense of the PTB. That's all.
As for the sport, I'm pretty sure Renderosity is big and robust enough to look after itself in that regard. God knows, there have been enough times when they've been questioned on more serious issues (data security and ethical practice come to mind as examples) without them even deigning to respond. I can't imagine what would be so upsetting about a couple of lame piss gags. The PTB let this stuff roll off them like water off a duck's back. Perhaps you should consider their example.
WRT the issue of product description, I took it that Spinner was exercising her right as a consumer to question the advertising material. Lots of people spend lots of money through this site: confidence in product integrity is vital. Here in the UK we have a body called the Advertising Standards Authority. It's their job to ensure that advertising in any medium is "Legal, Decent, Honest and Truthful". Please don't jump to the conclusion that I'm accusing Renderosity of being dishonest here: I'm not. My point is simply that the ASA is widely recognised as protecting advertisers as well as consumers. When products are sold truthfully, customers get what they expect and are more likely to become return customers. It's instructive that the advert to achieve some of the most successful UK brand recognition of recent years is for a company that makes wood stain and sealant products. Hardly glamorous, but its slogan has become part of the language: "It does exactly what it says on the tin."
Well done, Xenophonz, on "spreading the love all around". Way to go.

@Brendan: hello sexy. Bit parky, isn't it?

Message edited on: 02/25/2005 04:24

Think the appropriate phrase was "taking the piss" ;-) Bar that - what he said... ~S

"What ticks me off is the fact that the place DOES cater to the lowest common artistic denominator and is pretending it's not."

Could be seen as catering to a wide range of artists also. They've been moving forward almost since day one.

Aspirational Remedial & Retail Therapy all in one place! It serves a need and peoples needs are being well serviced. At the very least.

cambert --

Long time, no see.

;-)

Yes, whenever I see a love fest in the making -- I am always tempted to join in. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. But I respond to the spirit of the thing: as Forrest Gump would say -- "love is as love does".

Here in the UK we have a body called the Advertising Standards Authority. It's their job to ensure that advertising in any medium is "Legal, Decent, Honest and Truthful". Please don't jump to the conclusion that I'm accusing Renderosity of being dishonest here: I'm not. My point is simply that the ASA is widely recognised as protecting advertisers as well as consumers. When products are sold truthfully, customers get what they expect and are more likely to become return customers. It's instructive that the advert to achieve some of the most successful UK brand recognition of recent years is for a company that makes wood stain and sealant products. Hardly glamorous, but its slogan has become part of the language: "It does exactly what it says on the tin."

Interesting. We are not accusing the PTB of doing anything dishonest -- oh no, not that.

And then we proceed to imply that they are doing something dishonest -- or at least misleading. Perhaps some regulatory body like the ASA should investigate.

BTW - we've got plenty of alphabet soup type governmental agencies on this side of the pond already. In fact, if you like -- I'd be happy to get rid of a couple by passing them on.

As for the rest -- I recommend burying the idea underground.

Well done, Xenophonz, on "spreading the love all around". Way to go.

It's always so rewarding to be appreciated for one's talents.

[[Reference -- see the first part of this post. :-)]]

I'm just having a bit of sport -- at the expense of the nay-sayers.

Kendra - I have no beef with Rendo's growth; if I had I wouldn't throw in the occasional post or freebie or spend money in the RMP. However, since there is a demand for truth in advertising in the RMP which has become more and more strict, how come I can't call Rendo-native marketing on it if they are misrepresenting a genre ? This has nothing to do with love/hate the place, it has everything to do with questioning phrasing in an advertised item, and not being satisfied with the answer given. Look at it as following the text in the newsletter - "Only by serving eachother, we can be free" - Well, I served marketing by pointing out an error or misrepresentation, hopefully setting them free enough to rectify it... ~S

Good lord. Y'all sound like a buncha whiny kids. I like Renderosity, have been a member for years, and intend to continue for years more, but D@MN it. Some of you make me wanna take you back to your parents for remedial spankings. 1. In the movie industry, underground generally--but not always--pplies to content, not publishing style. HOWEVER, it HAS been applicable to some films only for method of publishing, usually when the film couldn't get published in any other fashion. 2. Inaneness, inane-ness, etc. Given some of the l33t spellers and 'u b smart 2' typists, who cares if it's a word or not if you get the point? sheesh.

Some of you make me wanna take you back to your parents for remedial spankings

In certain European countries, spanking children is illegal.

Perhaps this fact explains certain things.......

However -- it's possible that the same law doesn't apply to adults.

;-)

"Good lord. Y'all sound like a buncha whiny kids." jewell! are you including me in that statement? If you are, please explain why?

The only sticking point is that they might enjoy it.

Brendan -- In the forums, one should never take things personally. It's all in good fun.

"In the forums, one should never take things personally."

Honestly ZENOPHONZl! I don't.

It's just that the word * Remedial * triggered a non-association-trip-switch that was sensitized to the idea that jewell would not, as a matter of course, have consciously or unconsciously accessed the word by themselves, creating a serendipitous echo of my post.

I may be wrong in my assumption.

Message edited on: 02/25/2005 13:01

Another error! Please forgive me for spelling you name wrongly XENOPHONZ. It was a genuine typo mistake.

Please forgive me for spelling you name wrongly XENOPHONZ. It was a genuine typo mistake.

Please -- not a problem at all.

You should see some of the intentional misspellings that I get from time to time.

Everywhere I go, I always seem to inspire people to increase their creative efforts. If I can do that -- then my mission is complete.

Hmmmmm. You seem like a genuinely nice guy, Brendan. What are you hanging around in this thread for?

"2. Inaneness, inane-ness, etc. Given some of the l33t spellers and 'u b smart 2' typists, who cares if it's a word or not if you get the point? sheesh."

The irony of it. (actually, "inane-ness" isn't correct either)
I don't discount Spinners irritation, I understand it in the context of Renderosity's "truth in advertising" campaign. I just found the criticism of the use of a word, using a word that isn't a word... well, I'm pretty sure whomever used the term "underground" had their own alternate meaning for it.

"Hmmmmm. You seem like a genuinely nice guy, Brendan. What are you hanging around in this thread for?" I am an exceedingly, genuinely nice guy! , it's just a question of the tangible validity of ones existence being dependent on the peripheral awareness of others. To some in Renderosity, I am well known, to others I am a cyber myth, failing that!, I am a mere cypher. The mysterious dynamics of an * Artistic Community * As for what I am doing here? I trip hither and I trip thither, and with luck, no one ever why's and whither?

I like it, Brendan......

'The time has come,' the Walrus said,
'To talk of many things:
Of shoes -- and ships -- and sealing wax --
Of cabbages -- and kings --
And why the sea is boiling hot --
And whether pigs have wings.'

Kendra, I was under the impression it was a commonly used phrase, the google I did on it showed it is a phrase which is commonly used as an alternative for inanity, and thus my intent was to convey the concept of inanity by using a phrase I have seen on the web, in books and articles. As for irony - point taken. Xeno - Familiar with Don Quixote ? ~S

Xeno - Familiar with Don Quixote ?

Yeah. He was an idealist. And a dreamer.

Idealists tend to be highly irritating to cynics.

;-)

Not to mention a disproportionate view of their own annoyance factor - it's never as high as they wished it were (was?)...

Quixote also fought windmills thinking they were evil giants.

~S (edit for grammar - NorwEnglish got the better of me )

Message edited on: 02/25/2005 14:18

No......no desire for an "annoyance factor" here. It just is. It's simply in the contrary nature of the directions involved.

Observation of a fact doesn't indicate any sort of a desire for that fact to exist.

Quixote was a mad dreamer.

[[[[[What was the definition of "artist", again?]]]]]

Quixote was also an admirable man. Quixote's madness was in the right direction.

At root, the Don was a Cynical Idealist in as much as he would not have identified a urinal as a worthy object for contemplation as ART but would assuredly have identified with a tenth rate image of Vicky in a temple with a sword. Personally, I would have difficulty in drawing any conclusions that would confirm or disprove his reputed insanity. I do like the man though!

Better fighting windmills thinking that they are evil giants, than fighting the wind itself -- thinking that it's something solid. At least the evil giants are a worthy target.

At root, the Don was a Cynical Idealist in as much as he would not have identified a urinal as a worthy object for contemplation as ART but would assuredly have identified with a tenth rate image of Vicky in a temple with a sword.

How do you reach that conclusion? I didn't read about a single naked Vicky in Cervantes' book.........

I do like the man though!

What's not to like?

Although, in many, many ways.......Don Quixote and I aren't related to each other........

"How do you reach that conclusion? I didn't read about a single naked Vicky in Cervantes' book........." Between the lines!.. between the lines.... It's about idealizing something that never was and never could be. The Zena Complex a sublimated wish to have ones balls busted by a dominate female. ( so I understand! ) ( but don't quote me! ). Pardon me if I unwittingly step over the TOS.

The Zena Complex

I've never suffered from that complex.

In fact, I doubt that Don Quixote did, either.

It's about idealizing something that never was and never could be.

Better to wear rose-colored glasses than glasses always shaded in dark gray (or black).

Perfection, in this world -- is impossible. Especially in veiw of one's own weaknesses and flaws. Unfortunately, weaknesses and flaws are a major part of being human.

But it gives one something to strive for.

An unqualified qualifier: I am not ascribing any trait or complex to anyone. I would like to affirm the Dons right to attribute any size, colour, shape or virtue to whom and whatsoever his author pleased.

Hasn't this thread turned out nice? It's a while since I read Don Quixote but, as far as I remember, his main concern re women was to find one to serve and worship in a courtly manner. There's a great passage of broad comedy when the good Don mistakes the whores in the tavern for fine ladies and insists on addressing them as such. I seem to recall the delicate poignancy that sits behind the comedy there: the only man who treats the whores with any respect is a madman. Still, we mustn't forget that it was reading books on chivalry that sent DQ mad in the first place.

Xeno, I'd say the PTB were over-stating rather then being dishonest, on the 'underground' claim. It's something that many of us do and it's as well to be pulled up on it. Maturity comes not in avoiding mistakes but acknowledging them :-)

Message edited to get rid of various Monday-morningisms on: 02/28/2005 04:40

Message edited on: 02/28/2005 04:42

I'd say the PTB were over-stating rather then being dishonest, on the 'underground' claim.

The term "underground" is about as vague as a term can get. It's difficult to truly "misuse" a vague term.

Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.

• General George Patton Jr

Awwwww, man.....after three days, I thought that maybe this thread was dead.

Old threads never die: they just fade away ------------

(...........................)

Old threads should never be left for dead, they should be bundled into a plastic bin-liner and dumped outside a charity shop for the crusties and vagrants to pick over on a drizzly night.

It's both drizzly and cold out this evening. Looks like a good time to recycle some old threads.

I've never dug back into the archives around here. But digging up old bones might be an interesting thing to try sometime. Perhaps I could even append a post onto a 4 or 5-year-old thread -- just to see if anyone gets an e-bot and responds back.

.....like adding a post to a 4-year-old Poser 5 wishlist......perhaps doing so would make the wish retroactive.

"Plastic bin-liner" has the ring of a British-ism.

In the US, we call them garbage bags or trash bags. A few people might refer to them as "trashcan liners" -- but only a few.

Great place for old threads.

Lillian, You never answered my question regarding PR ? ~S