Forest Gump perhaps ;-)

Yup, ... and some peeps can't see the Forrest Gump for the trees, no? '=]

Perhaps the movie should be mandetory for every one to see?

"Here they label you, as compiler does, a beginner or novice who doesn't know how to use poser at all." aeikema 1- I did not give no name. 2- AFAIK you did not complain about Poser 5 or 6, so you were not concerned. 3- I had a look at your gallery here. This did not change my view a bit. 4- The prejudice I see in this forum is against CL. It's strange to think that they produced the software that made this forum possible. I guess some people just cannot help but whine and complain. I prefer to try and improve my work instead and, admitedly, I still have a long way to go, but at least I don't blame my tools for my imperfect work. If you don't like Poser 5 or 6 or N, don't buy it, but why do some people feel the urge to demean things in forums ?

Wow. Pretty vitriolic thread. Sounds just like the kind of "civil discourse" which pervades life here in Washington: if you don't like someone's perspective on something, label them evil and yelp for their head.

Civility is a wonderful thing. I'm all for it. And I'll gladly practice it whenever it's possible.

Unfortunately, in order to engage......one has to play the game by the rules of conduct that are granted.

In other words, you can't fight a raging inferno with a squirt gun.

High-pressure water hoses, axes, and chain-saws are much more effective for the purpose.

I wish that it wasn't necessary. But at times, it is.

Sheesh. If things are this heated now, I shudder to think of what it will be like once the program is actually available.

I love P5, and never had any problems with it. (Well, no more than with PP, anyway.) I'm very excited and happy about P6, and preordered as soon as I could. But jeez, the bashing of the bashers is getting to be worse than the original CL-bashing. People who never heard about any of the P5 problems are hearing about then now...from CL's supposed defenders.

If things are this heated now, I shudder to think of what it will be like once the program is actually available.

One would hope that P6 will be wonderful -- and then everybody will be joyously happy.

Right?

No.......human nature will tell. Even in a perfect environment.

It's not what's outside that's the difficulty.

the bashing of the bashers is getting to be worse than the original CL-bashing.

RE: Post #56.

I've about given up hope of Curious Labs ever becoming much of a direct participant in this forum.

It's a possiblity that this outcome was the goal of some.

If not, then they couldn't have accomplished the task better if they had planned it that way.

Why did some folks turn against CL in the first place? There is a history & plenty of reasons why many folks were disappointed (to say the least) when Poser 5 first came out, and are now somewhat wary. People have the right to be wary just as others have the right to be merry cheerleaders. Me, I'm going from P4 to P6, so I'm hoping the new company running CL will make a good change. And if it doesn't work out... P4 & Daz Studio work well enough for me. ;)

I wish I could understand the animosity seen by some members of this community against CL and against DAZ. Both are small companies. Both work very hard at what they do. BOTH are dedicated to this community. And BOTH are severely misunderstood. I can't think of any person that is perfect, and that doesn't make mistakes. Companies are made of people ... and they are usually people who want to do a very good job. Those of us who have been using Poser for a very long time, especially through the rocky years between version 4 and the soon-to-come version 6, have seen Curious Labs go through a LOT of changes. Changes that the small company SURVIVED through, and are trying to put behind them. To reiterate the topic, let's give them a chance.

Deecey, you forgot one BOTH do want to make as much money as possible..... I'm sorry but you portray them almost as angels, which they are not..... Dedicated to the community? Only if they can make money of it. They hardly participate in forums (as E-on does for example), they often neglect answering important questions. But let's give them a chance, well at least CL, I'm willing to do that!

BOTH do want to make as much money as possible..... Um, doesn't any business want to do that? Companies aren't in business to lose money! >> They hardly participate in forums (as E-on does for example), they often neglect answering important questions. That's the tragic part. We used to see the folks from DAZ and CL in here a lot more. But something happened to this community. Something that can mostly be attributed to changing with the times. You see, it used to be a much nicer community of people that shared, and got along, and did things for each other. But at the end of 2000, the Internet craze went bust. All of a sudden, people had to pay to share their free stuff. Fewer and fewer sites became available to share them .. so people started charging for them. So then the Poser community became "commercialized." And the community started complaining about how much Poser was costing them. At the same time, CL was going through some very heavy times with changing hands. Again, related to the economy. That is STRESSFUL to go through. It's good for us that they survived. That's why they need a chance. As for DAZ, yes they are a business as well. BUT they are a business that has constantly been LOWERING their prices, and now are giving their flagship figures away for free. As for neglecting questions, perhaps one of the reasons that neither company comes in here often is because of the volume level and constant threat of attack. Would you want to face that?

There is nothing wrong with having a business for profit. Curious Labs and DAZ3D are good, honest companies, and they don't deserve all the flak. Look at all the free stuff DAZ has given over the years. Where would Poser be without Curious Labs? So there were some problems with Poser 5. But those problems were fixed years ago. It's time to move on.

Message edited on: 03/09/2005 14:46

Agreed, Constantine, but the CL/DAZ relationship is almost symbiotic ... the popularity of Poser is enhanced by the DAZ figures, and the DAZ figures are enhanced by the growing popularity of Poser. Even though it appears as though the companies are heading in different directions, they still have some interdependency on each other.

but the CL/DAZ relationship is almost symbiotic

DAZ and CL should be cooperating with one another.

It would be to their mutual advantage to do so......not to mention to our advantage.

They hardly participate in forums (as E-on does for example)

The Vue forum is a very different place from the Poser forum. For the most part, it's pretty civilized over there.

As a company, E-on has its detractors, too.....but there is a critical difference vs. the CL situation. Namely, that the majority of the participants in the Vue forum actually enjoy using the program, and they tend to support the company that produces Vue.

Whenever a Vue-hater pops up in the Vue forum, they don't find a warm welcome there from kindred spirits. Instead, such an individual usually finds that their constant complaints land on unsympathetic ears.

It makes a top-to-bottom difference in the atmosphere of the place.

Don't get me wrong -- the Vue forum has its little flaps from time to time.

But even at the worst, it doesn't compare to the Poser forum for negative vibes.

Then again, it might have something to do with the difference between landscapes and naked Victorias holding swords.

Victoria seems to anger people (for some reason). Message edited on: 03/09/2005 16:38

Victoria seems to anger people (for some reason). Well, hell, she has a better wardrobe than I do! ROFL

Yes.....to a great extent, Vue just doesn't attract the same sort of a crowd as Poser.

That fact helps to keep E-on active in the Vue forum.

she has a better wardrobe than I do! ROFL It's all V3's fault. Whatever V3 wants, V3 gets. ;-)

DAZ and Curious Labs should be best of friends. DAZ3D is the house that Poser built.

DAZ3D is the house that Poser built.

Yes, in the final analysis -- it is.

Likewise, DAZ's mil figures (especially V2/V3) have helped to popularize Poser far beyond the level that either Posette or Judy could have obtained on their own.

DAZ and Curious Labs should be best of friends.

They should be. Such a scenario makes perfect sense to me.

But, as has been suggested in an old thread -- I like to tilt at windmills.

I wonder how much of the "feud" is perception only?

The positive folks who have shared out of the kindness of their heart, taught us things, gave us good freebies and products to play with - all of us, really, have build the house... no the town that Poser is built on. Would it be nearly as exciting without contributions from folks like Kozaburo, geep, stewer, ockham, Mec4D, Anton, Traveler, Bushi, Yarp, Hogwarden, scourge and hundreds of others out there? We've all pushed the program beyond its core abilities, all of us and everyone. "Sheesh. If things are this heated now, I shudder to think of what it will be like once the program is actually available." IMHO, Most of the dissenters will act like this: If Poser 6 has a lot of shortcomings, there will be a lot of "I told you so!" If Poser 6 needs just a few fixes here and there, it will be "broken". If Poser 6 is great from the start, there will still be something wrong with it or "why didn't they do this with P5" and so on. Most of these people won't be happy no matter the scenario because as has been pointed out by others, and I think rightfully so, they are miserable to begin with. shrugs ;)

I wonder how much of the "feud" is perception only?

Good question.

For those of us on the outside, it's hard to tell.

It sure does look like a "feud" is what's going on sometimes. And that's not a good thing. It doesn't benefit anyone.

However: the individuals that actually know the answers to these questions aren't about to come in here and start talking about it.

;-)

Netherworks --

You've impressed me.

Great website that you've got, to boot..........I need to take a more serious look at it, I think.........

The positive folks who have shared out of the kindness of their heart, taught us things, gave us good freebies and products to play with - all of us, really, have build the house... no the town that Poser is built on. Would it be nearly as exciting without contributions from folks like Kozaburo, geep, stewer, ockham, Mec4D, Anton, Traveler, Bushi, Yarp, Hogwarden, scourge and hundreds of others out there?

Wow.

One hears this type of thing so rarely, that it's like opening a door -- and finding fresh air.

Thanks.

"If it has 1,000 bugs ... ... I will still be happy with Poser6 !" - Dr Geep - 2005

"But, if it has 1,001 bugs ... ... I will not be happy." - Dr Geep - 2005

"However, until the 1,001st bug bytes me ...

... I will be happy."

• Dr Geep - 2005

"I will plan, however, in my endeavor to find that 1,001st bug, ... ... to have many, many hours of fun playing with it." - Dr Geep - 2005

"And that's about all I have to say about that!" - Dr Geep - 2005

Cripes, guys... get a room already. /P

Like a padded one?

Here's one.

BTW - they are an interesting couple. They just love guests.

ROFLMAO! Oh, she is REALLY sweet! I gotta get that bikini. 8-)

So let me get this straight. Anyone that had a problem with P5 doesn't know how to use Poser and only makes naked Vic scenes? Anyone that is Leary after the P5 debacle is a whiner and complainer? Interesting concept. If you have a problem with a program, don't say anything. Why? Because Curious Labs are GOD, not to be blasphemed, and anyone that has the Gaul to criticize our God must be put down at all costs? Bullshit. I've never seen so much ass kissing in my life. I'd go further but would get banned so hell with it. Go back to the rah rah CL can do no wrong bullshit. Flame me if you feel like it, won't change the fact that putting down those that have serious concerns about the upcoming app is just plain wrong.

Message edited on: 03/09/2005 23:24

I know I, for one, am not saying that folks shouldn't have concerns. I'm just saying that we should give them a chance, is all. Some people have reasons to be concerned. P5 really didn't work on my machine until SP4, but that didn't prevent me from upgrading to P6. And I'm not saying that you should upgrade too, just give it a chance.

"Gaul"?

I looked it up.

The ancient name for the country now known as France.

I seem to recall that the Romans conquered it.

"Leary"?

As in Timothy Leary?

He was some sort of 60's guru. Advocated getting high as a means to achieve world peace.

I would have been leery of him.

won't change the fact that putting those that have serious concerns about the upcoming app is just plain wrong

No one has put down anyone expressing serious concerns.

We have, however -- put down those that bash.

There is a fine distinction at work here.

Flame me if you feel like it

I only flame people that I feel deserve it.

Your initial approach to the matter is a little too straightforward and honest to merit flaming of the kind that you are referring to.

If you've got "serious problems" with P5, then state them. I would. I wouldn't hesitate to do so.

But I'd do it in such a way as to attempt to build up. Not to tear down and destroy.

Much of the criticism isn't constructive -- it's simply a forum version of hate mail. And who is going to bother with the suggestions of someone like that?

Shaking your fist in someone's face isn't the way to win their good opinion.

But it's a great way to get a fight started.

If one chooses to start a fight, then one shouldn't yell "it's not fair!" when someone else hits back.

"I have a problem with P5. I don't like the way that the Judy model looks."

vs.

"Listen, you IDIOTS!!! MORONS!!!! THEIVES!!!! How could anyone make something as ugly as that stinking JUDY piece of ........(TOS violation)........!!!!!!! You guys stole my life savings!!!!!!!! (TOS violation)(TOS violation)(TOS violation).........!!!!!!!!!"

This, of course, would be followed by various colorful suggestions concerning the staff at CL's ancestory; manhood; criminal tendencies; evil motives -- etc. etc........

You betcha I'll flame away at that sort of attitude.

In such a case, it's deserved.

I am reminded of the man that I once saw at McDonald's. It seemed that the workers at McD's had forgotten to put an extra large fries into his combo meal the night before. So he had come back, and was incoherently yelling, cussing out the folks behind the sales counter for a solid 10 minutes or more. A woman came over to me, and asked me if I had a cell phone? Would I please call 911?

I did then, and I'd do it again.

In fact, I'd take a personal hand, if the situation called for it.

Many of the CL bashers remind me of that man in McDonalds.

I've seen others of his kind elsewhere.

No one is worshipping Curious Labs........

.........nor should anyone be demonizing them.

Either attitude is equally wrong.

It's just that the demonizers either don't see or don't care about the damage that they are doing. Or about the spectacle that they are making of themselves.

Then again -- they might know exactly what they are doing.

If that's the case -- then as kids, they probably thought that it was great fun to trash the neighbor's car, too.

If one chooses to launch personal attacks, then one shouldn't be surprised when the same tactics are returned in the mail -- postage due.

Yeah I ran that post through spell check and it Fubared my post, I should have rechecked it, sue me. "No one* has put down anyone expressing serious concerns. We have, however -- put down those that bash. There is a fine distinction at work here." ""It seems to me that a lot of people who complained, complain and will complain about Poser 5 or 6 are just overwhelmed by it. They are not up to the learning curve." Bullshit. Thats just one example above. Sounds like he's saying if you complain about P5 your not too bright and can't learn the app. Complete and utter Bullshit. I've seen it in numerous threads here at Rosity. Someone brings up the fact that the P5 release was flawed and they couldn't use the app and all of a sudden they are "bashers" or can't adapt to the learning curve. "I am reminded of the man that I once saw at McDonald's" McDonalds doesn't ask you to pay for your food two months in advance, MAYBE get it to you when stated, screw up the preorders and coupons, then when the food finally gets there and isn't what you ordered, tell you to take a hike because it's YOUR fault the food isn't very good (as CL's did after the P5 release). If they did they wouldn't stay in business very long now would they? "This, of course, would be followed by various colorful suggestions concerning the staff at CL's ancestory; manhood; criminal tendencies; evil motives -- etc. etc........" I don't see that happening here, what I see are a lot of folks that got burned when they bought P5, and are cautious about the P6 release. Asking questions, reminding those of you that are oooooooooohhhhhhhhh so hot over P6 that history has a way of repeating itself. "No one is worshipping Curious Labs........" My ass they aren't and you're one of the Deacons. "If one chooses to launch personal attacks, then one shouldn't be surprised when the same tactics are returned in the mail -- postage due. " I haven't seen any personal attacks by those that question or complain, but I am seeing quite a few by the cheerleaders. Thats cool, but remember those same tactics can be returned to you in the mail. In SPADES!

"Sounds like he's saying if you complain about P5 your not too bright and can't learn the app." Naaah. That only concerns "a lot of" of the people. Mainly keep on whinning after the initial Poser 5 problems, more than 2 years after these problems were solved. There are also people who CAN use the proggy, but just like whinning. But these are a minority. (Nice gallery you have, BTW). OK, CL botched the Poser5 release (I personally suspect that they needed fresh cash at any cost for their survival). OK, it took them a year to make up with it. But that was 2 years ago. Can't we move on, now ?

CL isn't even the same company they were two years ago. They did great with Shade. I don't think it's fair to hold what happened with P5 against them.

That said...I really haven't seen any "bashing" of the type described. At least, not recently. When the P6 pre-ordering was first announced, some expressed frustration over CL's offering us a "pig in a poke" - selling the product without telling us what features we're getting. More annoying were those that implied that anyone who pre-ordered P6 was a fool. But I really can't recall any actual CL-bashing.

Of course, I'm sure that will change once P6 is actually out...

And ... WHO got up on the wrong side of their hospital bed this morning ??? ;=]

comes out in pom poms and a little cheerleading skirt,
beaming with blind devotion

Rah rah!
Oh wait...
Wrong room. ^^

heads back out seeking the Chocolate Lovers sign

Message edited on: 03/10/2005 07:36

Wait ! ... WAIT !!! ......... COME BACK ... This IS the right room ... We might even find some chocolate ... Well, we might ... ;=]

ooooo Do you happen to have some dark chocolate truffles too? purrrrrr

Yeah, c'mon cooler ... NaySayGuy wants to see them pom-poms again. ;=]

I haven't seen any personal attacks by those that question or complain, but I am seeing quite a few by the cheerleaders. Thats cool, but remember those same tactics can be returned to you in the mail. In SPADES!

Good trick, copying my lines.

;-)

As the inspiring John Kerry would say (deadpan): "B-R-I-N-G.......I-T.........O-N".........

We didn't start the fire. We are, however, seeking to put it out. At least, insofar as such a thing in possible in this environment. Which, admittedly, is somewhat like trying to stop the rain.

Oh, well.

If you can't understand the difference between the reasonable discussion of problems and gratuitous bashing, then I can't help you. We've arrived at the sort of impass from which we simply go in different directions.

*"No one is worshipping Curious Labs........"

My ass they aren't and you're one of the Deacons.*

Believe this tripe, if it makes you feel better.

Obviously, you know me about as well as Adam's cat.

CL deserves the support of the community which has been built around their product. That doesn't mean that we should approve of everything that they do as a company -- but it does mean that participating in a lynch mob isn't the way to go.

However, as both I and others have repeatedly mentioned -- bitterness always seeks to spread itself around -- like a tapeworm in the gut. And the results of the infestation are as positive as the worm.

Without due personal diligence, it's an easy trap to fall into. The negative side tends to be.....interesting.

That's why people like bad news. So long as they aren't involved themselves.

Yes, I am put in mind of the man at McDonald's.

Distinctly.

comes out in pom poms and a little cheerleading skirt, beaming with blind devotion Rah rah! Oh wait... Wrong room. ^^ heads back out seeking the Chocolate Lovers sign On this one, I agree 100% with Dr. Geep. Pulll---ease come back!

I like chocolate.

And chocolate likes me.

In fact, it likes me so much that it refuses to leave. It tends to hang around and doesn't go away -- without a lot of work.

So, I have to avoid chocolate.

But thanks anyway, cooler.