How soon before someone remaps the P6W to take Vicky3 textures? With the huge pool of stuff available for the Daz figures, some way of obtaining compatibility would be rather sensible. Otherwise the P6 figures will just be as ignored as the P5 ones. Incidentally, I'm very disappointed with the ethnicity support in the P6 figures. Just four channels, with very unrealistic results. CL cannot compete with Daz like this.

Phantast, you may be right. Vickie may be reality, and if P6W can't wear her skin, P6W will be ignored (read: not explode in the aftermaket). Her name is Jessi, by the way. However, (since you are offering predictions) I believe you are dead wrong. A whole new marketplace is about to bloom that does not obsolete Vickie, but rather simply ignores her. Obviates her primacy. Supplants her position. Constitutes a new paradigm. Goes right around her. No one will care about putting V skin on J. This may or may not cut into sales of Vicki products. It will be a separate market. Also, DAZ is not sitting still. There will be new excitement from them VERY SOON. We really have not even seen Jessi yet. Her true rig will be in Content SP1. People have not even begun to morph her default face/body into new characters. You ain't seen nothin' yet. There does not need to be official 'ethnicity support'. Once the true rig is here, people will morph her 110,000 poly mesh into any race or shape that exists in the world or in imagination. Vicki has NO advantage over Jessi in this issue. ::::: Opera :::::

"Vicki has NO advantage over Jessi in this issue."

Sorry to disagree with you here Opera, but V3 is much more versitile so far. If Jessi proves popular we may start seeing 3rd party morphs to fill in some of her deficiencies, but that's a pretty big if.

well, as much as I like Jessi (and I DOOOO :D)She is not going to replace V3, by any means. I am a bit dissapointed with the face room morphs... It seems like Judy actually had more, (and better) But I could be totally wrong as I didn't even have V2 when P5 came out, and so was VERY impressed with the number of morphs in Judy, at the time.

Also is it just me or does the random face option in the face room seem to be toned down a bit?

I am considering getting the Face morphs from RDNA, and that great Molly texture. Though I have other things I should be spending that money on.

Anyway Wouldn't it be great if 3Dream gave Jessi the EJ treatment, but just the morphs, Her base mesh is fine already. (well minus the soon to be fixed hands and feet.)
I do predict that James will become more popular than M3 though.

Message edited on: 04/01/2005 07:20

yes I would love a set of morphs for Jessi like the EJ system. There is NO BETTER MORPH set (in commercial release) in the entire Poser universe, IMO. No, V will not be replaced. But J will not be ignored. ::::: Opera :::::

agreed. ^_^

"Vicki has NO advantage over Jessi in this issue." Berserga: "Sorry to disagree with you here Opera, but V3 is much more versitile so far. If Jessi proves popular we may start seeing 3rd party morphs to fill in some of her deficiencies, but that's a pretty big if. " There already ARE 3rd party morph packs at RDNA, did you miss that? And you missed the thrust of my argument. I was responding to the specific issue of ethnicity. Just because at first blush there are no "pre-packaged" ethnicity morphs, does not mean a deficiency. Do people realize how easy it is to dial in an ethnic face, or use magnets? The differences in Caucasian, Negro, Latin and Oriental faces, for instance, are so so so small, in perspective to the human head. I speak from experience as I have a full array of male and female ethnic faces derived from the exact same base: EJ I do not have my Box yet, and frankly it will be several weeks until I am up and running. But I will bet a bottle of Knob Hill Straight Kentucky Bourboun Whiskey that I will be able to create a face of any ethnicity, and a good one, on Jessi or James. ::::: Opera :::::

Well, you try dialling in an epicanthic fold with the P6W. If you can do it easily with magnets, you're better with magnets than I am. I refuse to call her Jessi, this figure naming is getting out of hand. If someone says "Nina", is that a figure, a character pack or what? P6 Woman is unambiguous and clear. The point is that with V3, if I want, say, a new Chinese character, I can dial one up very quickly without requiring any add-ons. With P6W I can't. So V3 is much easier for me to use.

I haven't found it easy to get the standard meshes to look "ethnic." A lot of "ethnic" morphs are basically like those old Hollywood movies: Caucasian faces with heavy eyeliner.

DAZ's ethnic morphs aren't bad...as long you don't mind the mannequin look. The ethnic morphs tend to look pretty bad if you want to give a face a real expression. They are still light-years better than CL's, though.

I really think that to get a truly realistic Asian or African face, that you can morph and give expression to, would require a different mesh.

phantast, then what is your rename for Victoria, and when well the entire community begin to use it. Daz3W?

And you did not dial ANYTHING on Daz3W without add ons. You added on a purchased morph pack. One for the head, one for the body. What was/is the price for that again?

I have seen the 'oriental' faces you can dial up for Daz3W, and it is highly unconvincing. They just look like 'mocked-up' sort of the way David Carradine was made to look oriental.

The fold or lack of fold (Oriental visage has the fold) is texture driven, not morph driven. Yes, for an Oriental eye you have to reshape SLIGHTLY at the lacrmial and the arch of the upper lid has a different bend..but for the true look you must customize the texture. By definition, the fold is SKIN.

That's what I did for Lin, both an eye shape change and a texture mod. The eye was reshapped with add-on morphs ($12.50 for 850 body and face morphs) and this particular set of add-on morphs has two concentric 12-staged times three direction adjustments. Thats 72 morphs just around the eyes, within 1/2 inch.

Please note: Lin is NOT an 'extreme' oriental face. I could have EASILY made the fold more pronounced or different.

Can P6W receive the same treatment? I do not have my Box yet, so I do not know what is included so far, and what is possible in the face room. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that once Jessi gets stablized, 3Dream, Curious Labs or some other company will create a killer killer morph set for her 110,000 poly mesh.

::::: Opera :::::

Character: Lin
Model: Poser5Woman (Judy)
Morph package: EJ by 3Dream
Texture: Selyne by Blackhearted
Texture mod: operaguy
Face mod with morphs: operaguy

I completely disagree that you need an special 'ethnic' mesh to get non-Barbie ethnic characters. You just need a dense, well thought-out mesh and either a powerful morph set or skill with magnets.

The face below was derived from my memory of the unusual visage of a friend of mine no longer living. Once again, only the EJ morphs, face_off's skin shader, the P5 material room and a standard EJ texture were used.

I also wish to make this point about ethnicity. Is Jimmy a black man? Is he a Negro? Yes. But really...he is what his character made his face. The same is true for every human; they have genes of origin -- and always mixed genes -- but those influences are minor compared to the soul that animates. The goal is to morph a default mesh into the verisimilitude of a human.

::::: Opera :::::

Character: Jimmy
Model: Poser5Woman (Judy)
Morph package: EJ by 3Dream
Texture: Two Of Hearts by jepe, Real Skin Shader applied
Texture color mod: operaguy
Face mod with morphs: operaguy

people will morph her 110,000 poly mesh into any race or shape that exists in the world or in imagination. Vicki has NO advantage over Jessi in this issue. More polys does not necessarily mean more versatility. Mesh structure also has a lot to do with it. >> I speak from experience as I have a full array of male and female ethnic faces derived from the exact same base: EJ If you're talking about base morphs I agree .. if you're talking about base model, the P6 figures are all new meshes and not rehashes of the old.

That's true deecey, have you had a chance to take a look at the mesh, both high and low res? What do you think, mesh structure (not JP structure) wise?

I can't seem to get anyone to post a wireframe of the body mesh.

My second statement...there was a communication breakdown. I did not mean 'the exact same base" as in 'Judy is the same base as Jessie', I just meant all my characters came from one base. :)

::::: Opera ::::::

Message edited on: 04/01/2005 10:18

I can't see your image. It must be blocked by my security settings or something; I don't even see the blank space where it's supposed to be.

I used to believe what you believe, Opera Guy. In fact, if you searched long enough, you could find my posts arguing that, just as all humans are derived from the same "original mesh," it's possible to make any face from V3 or whatever.

But I no longer believe that. Mesh isn't flesh. Even very high-res mesh. The problem I see again and again is the same problem the DAZ "International Beauties" morphs have. They do look good in the default pose. Attractive, and authentically Asian, African, etc. But if you try to use the expression dials, they don't look natural. The eyelids get all screwed up. The eyes don't close properly. The teeth stick through the face. Weird dents and bumps appear in the cheeks.

And it's not that the morphs are poorly done. I see the same problem even with custom ethnic morphs, done by very skilled modellers.

I suppose it might be possible to fix all those issues with magnets. But it would take a lot of skill, and an exacting eye, to both fix the problems and retain the ethnic look.

For the figures to work as Poser users expect them to work - dial a pose/morph - I'm convinced the basic mesh has to be different.

I still don't agree with you Randy; I don't think Vickie/Jessi are even Caucasian. There. That's a radical statement! But no problem, to explore your point of view, to your knowlege has anyone ever modeled a figure and brought it into poser? And if so, what race was it? Are there 'ethnic' models at Turbo Squid and other unPoser resource sites? ::::: Opera :::::

Actually the original name for Vicky was MilWm (Millenium Woman). I can live with Vicky and Mike just about, but all these new names are getting out of hand, and they clash with character packs. The ethnic morphs in V3 are not an add-on. They are part of the basic package but Daz, for reasons it understands but no-one else does, chose to separate out the base figure which was quite useless without the morph pack. Compare V2. My point still holds. The ethnicity morphs supplied by Daz are not great, I give you that. But they are far better than the P5-P6 ones, which are so bad as to be unusable.

I am hosting those images at my own site...that might be the reason...as you say a security issue. I think you've seen them before, Randy in other threads. og

you're point does not hold that the MilWoman morphs are included. Correct me if I am wrong...base V3 which is free comes with NO face morphs, right? You have to purchase the morphs, right, including the 'ethnic' morphs? I'll reserve my opinion of the included (absolutely and 100% free) 'ethinic' (i now hate that term, see my 'it's about the soul' post above) morphs for Jessie until I see them. My highly elaborated point that 'it does not matter, make your own diverse characters' holds. ::::: Opera :::::

I like Jessi and James. They are very well constructed, and I think they have good potential.

As compared to the DAZ figures, I will have to reserve judgement. I think many of us prefer the Millenium figures over others because we are used to them. We've been working with them for a long time. And they are very high quality models, which is probably the central reason why they are so popular.

From the perspective of a modeler who has not yet tried to model a realistic character, I can't really comment on which structure is better than the other. What matters more is what you can do with them. Structurally, the P5 figures' (Don and Judy) faces and bodies are VERY hard to work with, which is why they are not real popular.

As far as extra morphs go ... the morphs that come in the Face Room are limiting, especially when it comes to the areas around the mouth and nose. They lack the fine detail that is needed to REALLY make things unique. That's why 3rd party morph packs are essential.

Third party morphs aren't such a bad thing. Remember Posette? Out of the box she was cute ... but through the efforts of folks like Traveler (for morphs) and Tim Laubach (for his tons of textures), and many others in the Poser commmunity, she still has a long and loyal following as well. I suspect the same will be true of Jessi and James when people realize the full potential of what they can do.

We all have a different vision of the ideal male or female, which is why it is nice to have alternatives. As a person who really enjoys making clothing, I will be creating some stuff for Jessi and James. I think they will be a really nice alternative to Mike and Vicky.

Message edited on: 04/01/2005 11:00

I don't think Vickie/Jessi are even Caucasian. There. That's a radical statement!

No, it's not. That's the conventional statement. DAZ sells V3 with the claim that she can be any woman. Or even any man.

I'm the radical. I don't believe she can be any woman. She was modelled and scanned from Caucasian references, with ethnic morphs added later...and it shows.

But no problem, to explore your point of view, to your knowlege has anyone ever modeled a figure and brought it into poser?

Obviously yes. DAZ ain't the only game in town, not by a long shot.

And if so, what race was it?

Most of them are Caucasian. The Japanese modellers do Japanese figures sometimes. At least, to my eye they look Asian, though usually quite stylized.

Are there 'ethnic' models at Turbo Squid and other unPoser resource sites?

I haven't a clue. I don't shop at other sites, especially not TurboSquid. But I would expect that there are.

I realize "race" is a loaded word. Many scientists say race is does not exist; it's a social construct, not a scientific one. And I tend to agree. However...there is such a thing as geographical variation. And it is so distinctive that when a skeleton is found in the woods or something, forensic anthropologists (and even savvy laypersons) can tell from the bones if the owner's ancestors came from Asia, Northern Europe, or Africa. The differences are more than skin-deep. They are bone-deep. It's that difference in basic structure that makes it so difficult to morph any single mesh into "every woman" (or man).