Id only like to write off some frustration. I browse through the Bryce-gallery as often as i can and Im getting really tired of all Poserporn that invades Bryce-territory. Im thinking of creating some kind of virus that infects the Poserprog and creates heavy pixelation on private parts of the polygon-nudies. As Poser gets more popular and userfriendly you get more and more of this. I guess this is only the beginning. I know I can sound a bit cranky but I dont want to have this in my face everytime I go to rosity. Nude-filter or not, you cant avoid it. Cant they leave Bryce alone at least? Create an own section for all nudies.

Touche Stoner. thing is though its not only poser, you also have Daz Studio which ids free and comes with V3 and M3 then there is all the free poser stuff you can download and use in it.

Bryce-territory
I think you have Bryce mistaken for Terragen.
What exactly do you consider Bryce territory? Should we all stop importing objects, and constrain ourselves to rendering landscapes. Bryce is incredibly flexible and can/will create almost any type of render. So where then is Bryce-Territory, I didn't get a map with mine?

virus that infects the Poserprog
I can't think of anything nice.

more popular ... more of this ... only the beginning
We hear that often enough, I'm still waiting for it to happen. Odd, I wonder what the ancient Greeks complained about with all those sculptors running around making nude statues.

in my face ... you cant avoid it
If a picture contains nudity, and is not flagged, report it to a moderator. Thumbnails like this:, labeled "Bryce & Pin-Ups", will probably contain nudity. Or would you like someone to screen the gallery and forward to you only the images you will like.

Cant they leave Bryce alone at least
They who?

xenic101
(Now I'm late for work.)

On further consideration, what I said wasn't really worth saying in public. But I'll leave in this bit. What's wrong with nudity in the first place? Mahray

Stoner: Renderosity was actually created by and for Poser artists, and they are strongly established here (just make note of the ratio of Poser images to Bryce images), and although I sympathize with you, I use nudity (although in a classic and classy way, hopefully) in some of my work. I don't think anything in my gallery could by any stretch of the imagination be thought of as pornographic, but it takes all kinds. I draw a line mentally between "sexy" and "pornographic" but these things are very subjective. Like Xenic demonstrates, if the thumb shows part of the pic, and it seems to be semi-naked female or male body parts, It probably contains nudity in the full image. If you're on dial-up like me, you can usually tell whether you want to view the entire image before it fully loads. John

I feel the same way. I enjoy looking at other peoples work but I have a wife and a baby here (and a mother in law)　I feel I　can't go thru the Bryce galleries because it looks too much like porn sometimes. I really feel I can't go thru the regular galleries because of that because there are those who watch over my shoulders. I also find that if I comaplain to someone who thinks a beaver shot is a good thumnail it is mor etrouble than it is worth. Hence I no longer do sci fi images and now do aviation images that is the least polluted gallery I know of.

Just another opinion: I like to visit 'rosity during breaks at the office. I feel I can't go near the vast majority of the content because one errant click and I'm in the deep end, so to speak. Heck, even some of the banner ads skirt the comfort zone, IMNSDHO. It'd be nice if there were at least one or two places that dealt with software of interest to me that were also free of fear. Be a social activist all you want, tout the worthiness of the naked human form until you're blue in the face, cry artistic freedom from the mountaintops--but in reality sexual themes (including nudity) are inappropriate for display in nearly every workplace in the US (I daresay a large enough percentage of forumites are in the US to make that significant), and being "workplace friendly" is not an inconsequential benefit. Mark

SpinLand--glad you mentioned that. I have the same issue. :( I personally am not offended by nudity...but cannot even go near the gallery at work because even the thumbnails are not safe. It would be nice to be able to browse the gallery at work on lunch, but it's not possible because of the thumbnails. Nevanna

I dont go into the Gallery Section during breaks (dont have many) at work I like to browse the forums as there would be just too much to browse through when I get home in the evening. But as mentioned, some of the banner ads with females in them are attention grabbing so I have to be carefull to either scroll down or refresh my screen as passers by would want to know what I'm looking at. As for the Gallery Thumbs, I agree nude body parts should not be shown in the thumbs.

A few of you pointed out a thing that I didnt got the time to mention. It have happened that my wife had wondered what the heck Im looking at with all those banners that advertises underwearbabes in delicate positions. Nudity is not an issue here and its not in that direction Im aiming. I dont think its very difficult to judge weather an image is just ment to provoke or not. As Ive stated I just had to get rid of some frustration and by saying Bryce-territory and that thing about virus I was ironically speaking. I dont want to ban anything. Im just worried about the ideals who spreads among young members of our society. The advertisementindustry already use computers together with photos to generate fantasy-images of young women (and men). Imagine the impact when the line between fact and fiction isnt there anymore. When nobody ever can be satisfied with their looks. Im sad that theres no place you can get a rest from all that.

Im just worried about the ideals who spreads among young members of our society. Almost all young people are on the net 90% of the net is porn, 99,9% of people on the net have seen porn, be it by choise or as unwanted content/popups/spam etc. I don't think poser pinups/erotica/softporn on renderosity could be able to worsen the situation any further if it tried. And lets be honest, them 13 in a dozen poser pin-ups hardly look like real humans.... They don't look real enough to turn me on anyways. Is this poser art tasteless? I would say yes, it is, except for one or two exceptions of actual art.

Heck I was searching to find what are some "sweet apples" and the first thing that poped up from the search engine was for a porn site with the same name.

Personally, I don't care about nudity at all. I think it's hypocritical and ridiculous for humans to be so ashamed of their bodies. It reeks of low self-esteem and if your wife gets jealous over images, Stoner, you shouldn't have married her. Don't take that as me being mean, and I don't know her or you well enough to be a counselor. I hope in all sincerity that you two have a long and beautiful relationship. If your workplace allows you to browse online at ALL, consider yourself lucky. Most jobs scorn internet use on the clock, because the 'net IS 90% porn, period. I agree with Rayraz on this issue. If you are ashamed of nudity, or your naked form, then cut your eyes out and you won't have to worry about it. On the OTHER hand is this point : Most of that "artwork" is pure garbage, and displays no talent or dedication or even WORK at all. Human characters are modeled naked. They COME that way. If you can't take the time to dress up your figures, then you are not doing anything other than using someone else's geometry in it's basest and weakest form. Making naked people is so easy, just like in real life. Putting clothes on their back and giving them value as a character is the hard part, just like in real life. So, Stoner, I actually agree with you! Just for different reasons. I despise all the naked Poser people in Bryce imagery. Those that use such props are pathetic and worthy only of scorn or ignorance. I never click on an image which contains nudity, Star Wars/Star Trek props, or anything from the Lord of the Rings. If you can't be original, you shouldn't be attempting to do artwork. And if you think that naked people or the Lord of the Rings are "inspiring", then you need to go to a poor country and see just how inspiring naked, starving children are, or go read a real fantasy epic instead of a children's story about midgets.

Be careful what you wish for. Without the likes of the multitudes of Britney Speers fans, there wouldn't be a music recording industry big enough to offer obscure classical performances at prices affordable to most. The prosperity generated by the mass-market economy is what supports specialist, minority interests. So called "Poser porn" pays for Renderosity. Now that DAZ own Bryce, so called "Poser porn" pays for Bryce development. If you want to continue your particular area of interest in Bryce, and to continue sharing your experiences on this site; then you should be happy at the level of populist involvement with both. Thus endeth the sermon from the mound. No, no, sorry, from the mount... ;-)

"If you can't be original, you shouldn't be attempting to do artwork. And if you think that naked people or the Lord of the Rings are "inspiring"..."

That'd be irony, yay?

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=835547&Start=25&Artist=lordstormdragon&ByArtist=Yes

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=862645&Start=13&Artist=lordstormdragon&ByArtist=Yes

Thank you Mahray, tjohn, Analog, Rayraz, lordstormdragon, and especially PJF, for hitting the points I thought of after I got to work and calmed down.

Message edited on: 04/11/2005 20:16

Speaking as another who doesn't have a problem with nudity, I do believe there ARE better places where such things can be posted, but we all know that's never going to happen.

I slightly disagree with using nude figures and props as being "unoriginal", but my argument has undoubtedly been used before: If I lack the talent to create those things myself, what are my alternatives? Spend the next few years learning to model just so I can render something I can say is mine? Or maybe start from scratch and write my own software? They are tools, and are there so that less talented individuals such as myself can create something meaningful sooner, rather than taking a longer road that they may not be interested in, or able, to do.

Should those tools (figures, props, etc.) be used to create original images? Of course! Even though I enjoy a well done pinup, even I have gotten tired of seeing the repetition of certain themes in the galleries. I'm a stickler for coming up with something original. It's one reason why I seldom post anything. It seems as though it's all been done before, or I simply lack the ability to create on the screen what I see in my head to my own satisfaction.

Lordstormdragon makes some valid points though. It's only a few extra clicks to put some clothes on the model, and an image can often be more erotic by what ISN'T shown. And there are many, many other things to depict an image of than T&A.

lordstormdragon...you make a valid point...a vast majority of poser 'art' is garbage and for just the reasons you stated. Poser nudity has gotten to the point that in and of itself it has no interest to the serious artists here at Renderosity. The juveniles and perverts who have stumbled upon this site and click on the nude images...no matter how badly rendered they are and therefore drive the viewing numbers for these images are sadly all the fuel the creators of these low end postings need to keep on producing garbage. But even more ridiculous are the ones that do display some level of skill beyond the basic levels. The ones who obviiouly have taken time to paint hair and or clothes on their poser charactersthe ones who have shown some knowledge of lighting technique and or skilled postwork. But yet display images with characters that possess zombie stares and even worse yetglowing or lighted nostrils. Once or twice is understandable if in their zeal to show the world their latest advances in artistic level they may forget to fix the lighted nostrils problem, or they may not think it necessary to give the character an expression other than the initial out of the box stare. But there are regular artist here who get mega viewings and 'excellent' ratings who post images with these problems in plain view all the time. Now this I call pornographic...in the sense that they make a mockery of finished professionally done images, not to mention the bad rap that is generated about and hinders the program being taken seriously, that they were created in. These artists are the virtual version of the amateurish and leisurely Sunday afternoon artists whose art ends up gracing garage sales and yard sales all over the world. Lastly....pornography is not nudity, and vise versa. I've seen images here where the figures are nude, but yet their nakedness is not the point or the center of interest, but the action of the figure or the idea being expressed is. And vise versa I've seen fully clothed figures that are blatantly pornographic due to the way they have been posed or the way certain parts of their bodies have been exaggerated.

I don't mind nudity, but I'm not a big fan of poorly posed, poorly textured, poorly composed, and poorly rendered naked girls with breasts larger than their heads (I tend to wonder things along the lines of whether they're cold and if they have back problems). I'm not going to tell them to stop rendering and posting for a number of reasons, but what I would like is the option to exclude a genre from viewing so I can view all the ones except say, the pinup section since I know I'm not going to be interested in anything in it and don't want to have to go view all the other genres that I might be interested in individually.

Van Gogh, I totally afree with your views on pornography and nudity... Interesting ideas, and well-timed. PJF, my old friend... In both images, you failed to read the text I put under them. The first image in my gallery is my 10-minute tribute to all those fucks who got me banned as my previous iteration, and the nudity is a mockery of all those people who use it inappropriately, up to and including myself. So, basically, this whole thread is a tribute to my first-posted image in my gallery. Thanks to Stoner for starting this tribute, and thank you PJF for confirming it as a tribute! And now on to the second image you mentioned. I suppose that you think I was inspired by the LOTR with this image? Where in the LOTR does a large ship sail between two towers on a river, with a ridiculous castle against a huge ice mountin in the distance? And why would I put a quote from the Wheel of Time if it were a LOTR tribute? Funny thing is, right after I made this picture I read a scene from a true epic of High Fantasy, called A Song of Ice and Fire, wherein two towers straddled a river in this manner. So, it was pre-inspired by something I hadn't even read yet! Before pointing the Finger of Hypocrisy, make sure you know your stuff, my friend. May peace favor your sword, I wish you were around more and it's good to see you!

Generally I don't care about subject matter that much and everyone should have it as their right to make terrible art. The problem I have is just that it has gotten to the point where you can't cruise thru the gallery at work or in front of your family to show the latest picture you posted. And the problem is the thumbs. If I know there is nudity flag and there is none in the thumb then it is not a problem I can look at the gallery at work or with my family. Where the problem comes is when you look at the gallery and half the thumbs have some sort of nudity there you are at work. But it was the science fiction gallery sir...No it was porn you are fired. If you must post pictures with a lto of nudity etc and insist on putting it in the thumb then keep it in the pinup gallery. I woudl also liek to be able to filter out one or two programs or catagories and look at the rest.

Im sure we all can agree on whats tasteful and well performed art, and whats not. What Im trying to say is that I dislike images that use women as objects. Images that state that the most important task for a woman is to please men,containing clothing or not. That you dont have a value if you dont look as Britney. I dont know if Im overreacting but thats my personal reaction to a lot of the contents on this site that they express that values. Anyway, Id like to thank you all for participating in this discussion.

What PJF is saying the truth. Youll not get rid of what makes money almost, I say almost no matter how hard you try. Its become the way of our society to treat such matters as if they are sacred. And they are if you believe in privacy. But even that makes it more gamely to prying eyes, and therefore, worth money in a capitalist system. We can squawk till were blue in the face, but as long as you have people making money, itll not get squashed. Whether you have bosses, children, wives, relatives and friends that do not agree with said exhibitionism, makes no difference, theyll try to sell it right in your own house. How disgusting! Disgusting that you have no say in your own house! I said almostalmost meaning that you must get a large number of people to sign petitions. People that see things your way and are willing to sacrifice. How many of you have ever witnessed someone whose willing to sacrifice? I can proudly say I have. Thats what you need. Remember the sixties?

pornography is not nudity, and vise versa Very true :) I don't find nudity offending as an artform. I don't even find it offending as 13 in a dozen pin-ups, though I do think it is uninspired and empty. As for pornography, I fail to see any form of art or dignity in it.

Im thinking of creating some kind of virus that infects the Poserprog and creates heavy pixelation on private parts of the polygon-nudies. As Poser gets more popular and userfriendly you get more and more of this. I guess this is only the beginning. and that would accomplish what? A) It's pretty illigal to send viruses in software, B) This is Rendo's site and c) I have yet to see full nude's in the gallery. I am one of the fool's that spends tons of money on DAZ figures for my renders & animation. I don't do nudes, I mainly use poser & bryce for animations & scenes. No one seems to really care all that much about the adult content that is in the galleries. Not much a person can do about it though. ;) sex sells. always has, always will. Message edited on: 04/12/2005 04:55

:|

Sex sells! anyone wanna buy my home made porntapes? j/k edit: not trying to make fun of anyone's opinion in here

Message edited on: 04/12/2005 08:11

"Lordstormdragon makes some valid points though. It's only a few extra clicks to put some clothes on the model, and an image can often be more erotic by what ISN'T shown. And there are many, many other things to depict an image of than T&A." Yes that it is. It doesn't help when you can't use a program to aide in putting on clothing or the model texture or whatever you call it for poser models looks better on a naked vicky than it does when you put clothing on it. Sorry but i'm one that as not got the hang of using DAZ Studio yet and i also believe i don't have the body or head morphs that enable others to use clothing or hair on the models. So at the moment i can only do naked models, to be honest with you all i have only done one image with a naked vicky in it which because of reasons that a few know i deleted it a long with other images. If an image contains a naked model and it is possed well enough not to show full frontal nudity then i wont knock it. If i see one with full frontal nudity or the hands of the model are placed to be suggestive then i'll make a comment on the lines it should be in the trash...that to me is not art but porn that comes from a sick mind not an artist.

For once I agree with 'Raz...
...SEX SELLS - it really does!

Cough

Seriously though, I don't "fully" understand those that are against poser nudity. I mean theres really only one difference between say, an image of a really sexy car, and a really sexy nude; the nude will gather more interest.

But, just because someone post's a nude, it doesn't mean to say that more time can't have been spent creating that nude, than creating the car. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, why should a nude be dismissed, just because "it's a nude".

Remember, real humans are what we see in detail on a day-to-day basis. So, when something is even the "slightest" bit wrong on a CG human, we "really" notice it. CG nudes are very difficult to do with conviction, and I for one applaud anyone who can capture my eye with a GC nude - it's an art that deserves respect, because to my mind, it's "the" hardest thing to do correctly in CG.

I hate the fact that some people can dismiss a piece of CG art, just because it contains nudity - I mean so what?

On the other hand though, I also think that people should be forewarned of nudity, and it shouldn't be thrust upon them in a thumbnail or whatever - it should always be the viewers choice.

" Before pointing the Finger of Hypocrisy, make sure you know your stuff, my friend." lordstormdragon, you're rationalising - and it's quite a stretch. The fact is you indulged in a withering rant about what you consider to be unworthy images, and thus automatically invited a comparison with your own efforts. And, just like the imagery you rail against, your own efforts are mostly formulaic and derivative, lacking in artistic originality. If you honestly think using the DAZ dragon in a Bryce scene is more creative than rendering a downloaded Star Wars ship, well I guess you're easily pleased. The simple reality is this. If an image obeys the Renderosity rules, it belongs on the site if that's where the member wants it. That's the whole point! I haven't looked at the rules lately, but I bet they don't require images to meet anyone's particular artistic or other creative criteria. People are allowed to just have fun here if they want, and that includes making "tits and ass" piccies (and for we real perverts, Star Trek images). Why can't members just be left to their own devices? I don't like seeing tattoos and body piercings, but I don't go around whining at people who enjoy those things. I'd deserve a slap for my rudeness. And bloody hell, man, are you really saying it was other people who got you banned? I can sign my various account suspensions with a hearty "all my own work".

Aye, when you're right, you're right. Almost.

Thing is, dragons kick ass. Spaceships and naked ladies always lose, against dragons.
(grins) Alas, I can't help but feel that creativity in the sense of dragons or ships is a totally different game. Dragons don't mind being exploited, if they did they would just kill us all. Space ships also don't care, because they aren't sentient. But I look around and there's an entire world of women screaming to NOT be objectified and used as a drug, PJF. 3 Billion whining women who are crying out about being weaker, and half the men on this planet actually understand that Power is not meant to be used to stifle the weak, but to make them safe. Show me a dragon who takes offense to being shown naked, and I'll concede the point. Dragons never bitch about anything, they just destroy whatever they want. A good lesson for you, my friend. And last but not least, PJF: Get your own gallery.

To me, creativity is creativity. If someone were to, for example, create an image of a nude woman, but instead of arms she had dragon wings, then that would probably get my attention, especially if it were done well. It's not something I see everyday, and shows creativity and originality. At least, to me it does.

I think nudity is the taboo that it is because a lot of us Americans are so uptight about it. I know in other countries, people have a more relaxed attitude towards nudity, and don't consider it such a big deal. More than likely quite a few Americans feel the same way, but they are either minorities, or the minorities with the loudest voice have determined that nudity is taboo. I'm generalizing, try not to read too much into that. My point is, nudity is something we're not allowed to see, unless it's in private. If the majority of the artists posting such images are Americans, then that may be a reason why gallery nudity is so prevalent. We almost always seem to want what we can't have, and this is an outlet.

Pumeco is also correct. Sex DOES sell. Every gallery I've ever viewed, if it had an attractive female model in it, nude or not, had more hits than any surrounding image.

I also disagree that just because an image shows full frontal nudity that it is trash. It certainly doesn't belong in these galleries, but that doesn't make it trash. Like I said earlier, there are better places to post such things.

And of course all this is merely my opinion, which is worth the standard going rate of two cents.

lordstormdragon dogging LOTR....tsk tsk tsk...and I used to think we were amigos.... As to the uses, or abuses, of power...I quote my favorite, recently purchased t-shirt: "Trample the Weak Hurdle the Dead" * *Any implied reference to well known rock bands past or present is purely coincidental. *Also the management wishes it to be understood that this in no way implies the degredation of women who, it should be said, actually run the world...they just don't get paid enough. :)

you dont think sex sells on this site? Thats all there is in the poser section. It's what makes Rendo money. More than any other 3D app on here. I dress my figures. What makes Rendo the most money? Bryce or Poser? So, you can poke fun of my comment but it's the truth. They won't change the adult content in the galleries. you can complain and make threads about it and it still won't get you anywhere. :) ::shrugs::

LSD - "But I look around and there's an entire world of women screaming to NOT be objectified and used as a drug..." Wassat? - Aye, and theres also an entire world of women screaming "TO" be objectified and used as a drug - just try a quick google, and ye shall see!

Aye, good point, Pumeco. Birddie, nobody thinks that sex doesn't sell. You're arguing everyone else's point. CLAYMOR! I loved the LOTR! When I was six, anyway. Since then, I have had the pleasure of reading nearly a thousand fantasy books and stories, and Tolkien's attempt falls dreadfully short of originality or depth. Hell, most of the single books I pick up now are as big as all of his together. I didn't mean to say that it's an unworthy story, but when you've read 500 books that are MUCH, MUCH better, it kinda makes the mainstream crap seem like just that. Crap. A hobbit saving the world? Come on. And where are all the DRAGONS?!?!? Just like with any genre, there is the mainstream stuff that everyone loves, and the really good stuff, which very few people even know about. So, Claymor, I invite you on a fantastic journey of true epic proportions! Read yourself "A Song of Ice and Fire", by George R. R. Martin. It is the most adult and overpoweringly vivid literature in the world, and each book makes the LOTR seem like a child's Dr. Seuss story in comparison. Beware, though. There are "safe" books, and "unsafe" books. This series is definitely the latter... The first book is called, "A Game of Thrones". Give it a shot!

I have had the pleasure of reading nearly a thousand fantasy books and stories, and Tolkien's attempt falls dreadfully short of originality or depth.

Tolkien 'created' the genre. Hard not to be original.
I agree that literature in general, and specifically the fantasy genre, has grown and developed, along with civilizations matureity, far beyond where it stood at the time Tolkien's works were written. However , ah to hell with it.

(laughs!) Tolkien did NOT create fantasy, Xenic! That's a common misconception coming from people who adore him, though. Here's a list of other fantasy authors. His name is at the top for POPULARITY. # The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (J.R.R. Tolkien) # A Wizard of Earthsea/The Tombs of Atuan/The Farthest Shore (Ursula K. LeGuin) # Dune/Children of Dune (Frank Herbert) # Farenheit 451 (Ray Bradbury) # Nineteen Eighty-Four (George Orwell) # Brave New World (Alduous Huxley) # Replay (Ken Grimwood) # Altered Carbon (Richard K. Morgan) # The Great Book of Amber (Roger Zelazny) # Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion (Dan Simmons) # Starship Troopers (Robert Heinlein) # Ender's Game/Speaker for the Dead/Xenocide/Children of the Mind (Orson Scott Card) # The Maltese Falcon (Dashiell Hammett) # Catcher in the Rye (J.D. Salinger) # The Iliad (Homer) # The Odyssey (Homer) # Jude the Obscure (D.H. Lawrence) # The Lords of Discipline (Pat Conroy) # Frankenstein (Mary Shelley) # The Naked and the Dead (Norman Mailer) # Elric of Melnibone (Michael Moorcock) # The Sword of Shannara (Terry Brooks) # Ringworld (Larry Niven) # Digital Fortress (Dan Brown) # White Noise (Don DeLillo) # Vanity Fair (William Makepeace Thackeray) # The Woodlanders (D.H. Lawrence) # The Summons (John Grisham) # The Testament (John Grisham) # Stranger in a Strange Land (Robert Heinlein) # Blood Meridian (Cormac McCarthy) # The Invisible Man (H.G. Wells) # The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (Robert Heinlein) # American Gods (Neil Gaiman) # Taps (Willie Morris) # Broken Angels (Richard K. Morgan) # Bird by Bird [non-fiction] (Anne Lamott) # Sons and Lovers (D.H. Lawrence) # A Tree Grows in Brooklyn (Betty Smith) # Gravity's Rainbow (Thomas Pynchon) # Frank Frazetta's Death Dealer Part II: Lords of Destruction (James Silke) # Wieland, or The Transformation (Charles Brockden Brown) # The Once and Future King (T.H. White) # Homeport (Nora Roberts) # The Giver (Lois Lowry) # Bleak House (Charles Dickens) # The Great Gatsby (F. Scott Fitzgerald) # Tender is the Night (F. Scott Fitzgerald) # The Jungle (John Sinclair) # Call of the Wild (Jack London) # Lord of Light (Roger Zelazny) # Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (Phillip K. Dick) # My Teacher Is An Alien/My Teacher Fried My Brains/My Teacher Glows In the Dark/My Teacher Flunked the Planet (Bruce Coville) # The Scarlet Letter (Nathaniel Hawthorne) # A Wrinkle in Time/A Wind in the Door/A Swiftly Tilting Planet/Many Waters (Madeleine L'Engle) # Anastasia Has the Answers (Lois Lowry) # Dreamcatcher (Stephen King) # The Chamber (John Grisham) # The Batman Murders (Craig Shaw Gardner) # House Made of Dawn (N. Scott Momaday) # Walden (Henry David Thoreau) # Heart of Darkness (Joseph Conrad) # The Thin Red Line (James Jones) # Of Mice and Men (John Steinbeck) # Moll Flanders (Daniel Dafoe) # Journey to the Center of the Earth (Jules Verne) # The Lord of the Flies (William Gerald Golding) # Shattered Chains (Magic: The Gathering) (Clayton Emery) # The Mayor of Casterbridge (Thomas Hardy) # Foundation (Isaac Asimov) # Tess of the D'Urbervilles (Thomas Hardy) # The Grapes of Wrath (John Steinbeck) # Far From the Madding Crowd (Thomas Hardy) # A Day No Pigs Would Die (Robert Newton Peck) # I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings (Maya Angelou) # A Tale of Two Cities (Charles Dickens) # The Bretheren (John Grisham)* # The Silmarillion (J. R. R. Tolkien)* # The Awakening (Kate Chopin)* # Across Five Aprils (Irene Hunt)* # The Other Wind (Ursula K. LeGuin)* # The Outsiders (S.E. Hinton)* # Isaac Asimov's Robots in Time Book 1: Predator (William F. Wu)* # # SHORT STORIES/COLLECTIONS: # The Collected Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) # The Dubliners (James Joyce) # Tales From Earthsea (Ursula K. LeGuin) # The Best of H.P. Lovecraft: Bloodcurdling Tales of Horror and the Macabre # Short Stories of John Cheever # Short Stories of Edgar Allen Poe # I, Robot (Isaac Asimov) # Collected Robot Short Stories of Isaac Asimov Vol.I-II # The Casualty (Heinrich Boll) # Azazel (Isaac Asimov) # The Legend of Sleepy Hollow (Washington Irving) Now, would you say that Britney Spears CREATED pop music, just because she's the most popular? Literature isn't about popularity. There were goblins, elves, and dragons long before there was Tolkien, my friends. He's not original, and her certainly didn't CREATE fantasy, silly Xenic! No more than Isaac Aasimov CREATED robots. I stand firm on my position, and you stand corrected.

none of which were published before Tolkien.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.R.R._Tolkien
I stand correct.

Message edited on: 04/13/2005 17:57

Hmm, Homer didn't write the Illiad before Tolkien? Asimov didn't write before Tolkien? Henry David Thoureau didn't write before Tolkien? What about Gulliver's Travels? What about the Three Musketeers? Again, people only think that Tolkien created fantasy because they haven't read enough. Go read some books, Xenic, and get back to me after you're educated on the topic. I mean that in the nicest possible way, of course. I suppose Tolkien created nudity and Star Trek, as well? Give someone else the patent on creation and you steal your own soul.

" considered by many to be the creator of the High Fantasy Genre" I stand SR1'd.

Aye, well everyone has their favorites! But alas, most people blindly follow the popular stuff because they just haven't tried anything else. Much like sex, or drugs, or music. If you don't open your eyes to what's out there, you could continue doing the same boring, mundane stuff for eternity. I also challenge YOU, Xenic, to read "A Song of Ice and Fire". You will never refer to Tolkien again, without putting Dr. Seuss in the same sentence. Tolkien is fucking clown shoes, and I'm too old for clowns.

we still here? favorites, Tolkien isn't one of mine. I've never read him. sex, drugs, and music, well covered thank you. read "A Song of Ice and Fire", I shall look into it. refer to Tolkien again, not sure when the last time I refered to him outside of this. but I do prefer to judge people on their own merit instead of comparing apples and oranges. yeah I'm still here. Got a house full of kids. To many distractions to work on modeling, and I have to wait till after bedtime to 'work' on some Poser porn. please stop capitalizing my nick, it's distracting.

Ok now...this is moving towards being it's own thread... Just to set the bar. I have read Tolkiens trilogy in excess of 35 times, although I usually skip the songs now. His dragons are in the Hobbit...though the last of the breed...and more specifically in the Silmarillion, where they play a significant role. I have also read a large number of the authors on your list. More to the point I am nearly finished with book three of "A Song of Ice and Fire" and while the various story lines are interesting I can't say I am as impressed with it as you are. It "feels" like an 'attempt' at epic..."If I throw in three hundred alliances, four or five religions, racial stereotyping and lots of sex it'll be epic." I like Tolkien better for depth of culture across his races, and I like Eddings better for character development. I liked Herbert better for social commentary and LeGuin better for twist of the tale. But there are many authors I find more tedious than Martin. The test will be in the in the last book...whichever it turns out to be...and how he brings it all together. So far I like it, it's in my top ten of fantasy, but not something I look forward to picking up when I get a minute. Perhaps we should leave it at a matter of taste...the ones you read that aren't gritty enough send my way and the ones I read that seem darker and more raw than I typically like I'll send your way.

I think (only think mind you, haven't done the research and have to run off to work soon) that the fantasy work of Edgar Rice Burroughs might have come earlier than just about anything else listed, including Tolkien. If you like Fantasy, Burroughs is much more than Tarzan. There are the Pellucidar novels, the Mars novels, etc. A huge body of work, really, and I found it much more accessible than Tolkien. I must admit after trying twice to get further than 30 pages into the Hobbit, I gave up. It just seemed so repetitive and, I'm sorry, dull. This hobbit comes in, says something, sits down, another hobbit comes in, says something sits down, another hobbit comes in, says something sits down, another...It really did seem to go on and on this way. Maybe it was only because I'd just finished reading Dune (which kept me up all night, I literally couldn't put it down). And before that, A Canticle for Leibowitz. Other than Dune, I don't know how many of these books are still in print. I really should give Tolkien another chance, but I seem to read more magazines than novels these days, my attention span seems to be getting shorter as I get older...more pudding please. John

Aye, there are a lot of excellent books, it's true! I guess I have a tendency to obsess about certain things that really affect my life, such as my seven Wheel of Time tattoos and my repetitive, "Mother of Dragons!" expletives... And the last couple days have been kinda weird for me, I find myself being an argumentative little snot, so I apologize to anyone I bothered. This site is about Bryce, not my preposterous ego. Xenic, Quest, and PJF mainly... So, in conclusion : nudity = silly, books = awesome, dragons = top of the food chain, guys with 15 letters in their screen names = foolish mortals. And they all lived happily ever after.

Hey LSD, I just saw a book in the local BooksAMillion, I think it was called Dragonology or something like that. It was more or less a kid's (or least adolescent's) book, but very ornate and heavily and well illustrated with things like Dragon anatomy, etc. You might want to look for it next time you hit a bookstore.

Aye, I just got that book from my sister for my last birthday! It is a silly book, but very ornate and interesting, like you said...

wow...heckofa thread. ;o)

Hi, AS! Thanks for dropping by. :^)

Jus' cruisin' around. =o] AS