Im not sure if this is the right forum for this post; but I wanted to open it up to the all users and not just restricting it to the writers forum. I know that I have also posted this in my gallery, I thought I would post it here just to see what kind of reaction it would get. I must apologise for this as it can be deemed as more of a rant than anything artistic, but I have a grievance that I wish to air to you guys. The grievance that I have is simply peoples views on what common man regards as filth (pornography). Up until lunchtime to day I held a full time job. The position I held wasnt high or glamorous; I simply answered phones and helped people with their queries, the job was neither busy nor slow. I always did my work, yes sometimes I was late in but I had to rely on public transport. Anyway at lunchtime to day I was given the option of being dismissed or resigning from the job. I choose to resigning, simply because it would look better on future job applications that I will be making very shortly. The reason for my dismissal was due to my Internet use. Whilst at work I have a few sites I access; one forum dealing with music and films, a forum for re-enactors, The Internet Movie Database and Renderosity. It is Renderosity that I have got into trouble for; they have this site regarded as containing sexually explicit adult material. Where as in my eyes it contains art. So what are we, a web ring of high quality porn! I think of myself as a writer an artist and a photographer; I see all of you as the same. In my mind I have posted poems, story and photographs that have value in there structure and artistic existence. But according to the company I use to work for, the site contains filth. Am I wrong in my thoughts that I have been wrongfully forced into my current situation by a bunch of self-centred bigoted morons? And if so what on earth is this world coming too. Before writing this I looked at my list of favourite artists and pictures. I needed to find the porn that had lost me my job. Firstly there is the God like talent of Addy, most of you know her work (if you dont I would say it is worth a look). Nope no porn there. Next in my list is NothingNess, what more can be said other than a gentle soul who write with the power of frustration. The Hobbit, beautifully constructed renders, The-Slinger, now perhaps it is this guy, there is certainly flesh in his posts or TT again another hint of flesh but is it filth. I could go on but I think I will exhaust the possibilities of finding anything incriminating. My most explicit thumbnail image is of a close up of an inner elbow. Yes I will admit than many pieces of my writing has an adult content, but I feel that they are part of the story I am telling and therefore not unnecessary. Did Stephen King, James Herbert or Richard Laymon ever get sacked for writing about sex! Should all movies that reference any form of unnecessary violence, sex or explicit language be banned from our screens? Especially when the news is doing its best to show the horrific violence that is exploding around our world at an unnervingly regular pace. Personally I love this site and the people with in it. I do on the other hand find it difficult to understand why accessing it has brought me to this annoying part of my life, where I find myself unemployed with an expecting wife. Am I so blind to the obvious content of this site, of is it to do with some people are just too uptight that they cannot recognize the difference between art and filth. So I request you who have read this, to comment. Be as truthful as you can. Am I simply going mad or is this site so full of pornographic material that it warrants an immediate dismissal from work. The floor is now open

Wow...tough break. It may not depend on what "You" viewed on this site but rather what ""They"(your X employer)viewed. Lets face it...there is some "art" posted here that could be considered porn by some folks.Again...we get into the age old debate of what is art to some,may be porn to another. Evidently, your employer viewed Rosity as a site that hosted porn images and,even though you or I don't agree with them, it is their call as the owners of the computers you use,to decide if they are being used inappropriately. I know that hearing this right now while you are still stinging from your resignation is the last thing you want to hear ,but try to be optimistic and see this as an opportunity for you to move along to bigger and better things. When one door closes, another one opens. Best of luck to you Tom

Sorry to hear about them firing you. It sounds unfair, because I don't think this site qualifies as a porno site. I don't troll the galleries looking for porno, but maybe there are enough nude fairies or Vickies in there to freak out your bosses. One other thing that will matter is whether you happen to be viewing a nude Vickie, which most here would consider non-porno, when a female co-worker walks by. That could be considered sexual harrassment, creating a hostile work environment, so it's best not to view sites like this at work, unless they say it's o.k. first, or it's work-related.

How very sad! I suppose your employer might have dismissed you for using the Internet for non-business puposes at all, assuming that that is stated company policy. Yes, there are images here that some might apply Justice Stewart's criterion to - impossible to define but obvious when seen. It's all, as always, in the eye of the beholder. I might add that I work for a religious organization whose Internet portal is zealously guarded against "filth". It blocks Renderotica but not Renderosity! Good luck in your search for a new and hopefully more broadminded employer. Fetter

Just to be fair this is not a case of "censorship" this is a case of a private property owner sanctioning you for what they have determined is misuse of thier private property.( computers etc.) I am curious about where you live though. here in Virginia east coast U.S. resigning from ones job will disqualify you from elibility to receive 39 weeks of$$$ unemployment. Checks$$ AT YOUR FORMER EMPLOYERS EXPENSE!! through mandated re-imbursement of the state fund.. so employers are very careful about how/why they terminate employees. but good luck !!

Sounds like a bum rap, alright. Was it just because of this site, or was your internet use while at work excessive (from your boss's point of view, that is)? This isn't a porn site. All else apart, Paypal won't be associated with anything they consider to be pornographic, but the site uses them for paying merchants and other transactions. Are you able to contest your company's action on the grounds of constructive dismissal or something of that sort, maybe? m.

i had the same thought on unemployment as wolf359. are you in the u.s.? also, was there a reason for them to see where you'd been surfing? in these days of political correctness it seems rather harsh to tell you that you had "filth" on your computer. perhaps, being late, and not overly busy had something to do with it as well. sounds to me like they were just looking for "something". i am not sure whether or not porn on a hard drive would be a justified (no unemployment) termination, or not. good luck in getting something else that you may like better. too bad you resigned. if you could have gotten unemployment you might have had a chance to explore using writing/photography skills to get employment doing what you like.

You have my sympathy as well. Out of respect, here's some truth: They may not be "a bunch of self-centred bigoted morons" - but rather just people who have different opinions and tastes than yours. The fact that they have opinions that differ doesn't mean they are any less valid than yours. It also doesn't mean that they are 'better' or "worse" people than you. Just different. It would have been prudent on their part to warn you first and let you know that 'rosity was unacceptable in their opinion. I can stop by here now but I've also worked at many places where it would have been unacceptable. I've been fortunate enough to know "where the line was." It sounds like it was never made clear for you. That's very unfortunate. Best of luck.

If you are dismissed you will receive money, never resign! Think on yourself and don't make a favour to yours idiot employers. If in the cause of your dismiss is explicited that the reason was visiting "porn" sites as Renderosity you can sue them and win more money!

Shame to hear what your going through. I wish you good luck, which I know you will find. Someone above says 'for every door that closes another opens', listen to it because it's very true, and many times that new door will actually lead you to a much better place you may never have walked through if that other door had never closed. If you view this site on its own merit, there is no reason to call it a porn site at all, but I thought about this and I have to admit there's enough times when I come here the first thing that appears is a banner ad that will look very, very pornish. If they happened to link to the marketplace, who knows what they would think, since there is lots of nakedness there.

The key is in the wording, "filth".
Ignorance is bliss, and some people are estatic.
There ENTIRE attitude is reflected in that term. 'Filth' instead of porn or any other nominclature.
You got screwed by a member of the moral majority.
Makes you think twice about "At will" employment. Alsa Bobasaur; I am going to disagree with you. Cultural relitivity is really only valid when studing other cultures as a scientific venture. You attitude that 'aww well I'm ok your ok' is invalid unless both sides are allowed to exist. And it is apperant that that is NOT the case.

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 19:41

He's in Europe, probably England, so who knows what kind of compensation he'll receive. At my job, if I went into the All & All "Whats New" Images section here, and if somebody walked by and happened to see a poser figure with triple D breasts hugging a bed post on the screen, and then subsequently complained about it, I'd be fired on the spot. My company has severe restrictions on Internet usage. If I owned the company, I'd do the same. What you may find non-pornographic, another may find very pornographic, and if the complaining person were to threaten with a sexual harassment suit, guess who gets canned? As an extreme example...My wife is a successful stock broker who works for the one of the top 5 brokerage firms in the world. A full two-thirds of Internet access is blocked from use. Yes, two-thirds. The biggest reason for that is because of SEC restrictions and guidelines for U.S. brokerage firms, and rather than deal with severe penalties, most of these firms simply filter most Internet content. You cannot use Yahoo or Hotmail or Gmail or any other Internet e-mail on the job, you must use the firm's email. Just one infraction is instant dismissal, no second chances. As a matter of fact, you must sign that understanding upon working for them. All Internet use is monitored and recorded continuously by machine name. Last year, a woman with ten years with the firm was fired for visiting eBay on her lunch hour. At 3PM, the branch manager walked up, told her to gather her personal belongings and to vacate the premises within ten minutes. True story. eBay is no longer accessible. Im sorry you lost your job, but is using company resources for personal and or entertainment use really a good idea? You must remember that it is they who own the machine and the method of Internet use and they set the rules, not you. This isnt about Renderosity being a nasty web site, this is about a company with guidelines on computer use, and they really dont have to be spelled out for you. If they think Renderosity is a porno site, then that is how they think and there will be no changing their minds. I know that in Europe nudity is probably no big deal to many, but to some there it obviously is, per your unfortunate demise. Here in the United States, if this site were rated by the Motion Picture Association of America, it would receive an R rating due to nudity, violence, adult sexual content and strong language, no matter HOW much Renderosity wants to call itself a nice little family site. I can see Renderosity going the way of DAZno nudity, within two years or less. Mark my words.

"I always did my work, yes sometimes I was late in but I had to rely on public transport."

Being a person who manages people and businesses for a living. That little seemingly insignificate statement made my ears ring.
It sounds like there might be more to the story than what we are being told. I have fired people for reasons like that.
But I always warn them first.
Think back about the things that happened prior to the termination. You might not have known their true feelings about your work performance.
Poor people management skills are very common.

Usually people get fired after they have been under some level of scrutinization for a period of time. The typical business manager doesn't usually take the time to council employees because they are like everyone else and try to avoid confrontations. So when the employee does something to piss off the manager/owner. They usually get fired because the manager/owner has been secretly hiding his or her feelings about your work performance.

People still run their companies with emmotions.
Sometimes that's good. Most times it's bad.
I've had a lot of trouble trying to keep owners from making bad emmotional decisions myself.
Owning a business does not make you good at running one.
That's why so many companies go out of business.

-ScottA

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 20:29

This site isn't a "porn" site but let's face the facts, it's not all artistic nudity either. I would not allow an employee to surf the galleries here on their time where the screen could be seen by customers. Yes there is the nudity filter but there are plenty who ignore that.

This site is listed at many of those places that keep an eye on internet content, and it's listed as containing adult material. Until recently, the store was full of bondage gear and posable genitals, and the galleries are full of naked Vicki in all sorts of situations, including the famous sword/temple combo. Why on earth wouldn't it be listed as an adult site? I am sorry to hear about anyone abruptly losing their job, because that just sucks, and I won't get into that side of it. However, I do understand perfectly why an employer would think that Renderosity is inappropriate viewing material at work. bonni

I used the word Censorship as I couldnt the time of writing come up with anything else. As for a idea that maybe I was miss using the internet on company time, I would refer my self to the company policy. This clearly states that I was intituled to use the Internet if permission was granted (which it was). I could use the Internet in free time and on quiet time, which were the periods within which I used it. I spent my time on the writers forum.

Im based in England and it is a similar situation that if you leave a job by resigning then you may not collect any form of benefit for I think it is around a month. The problem being though if I were sacked form the position then that would permanently be on my record and decrease any other chance of me getting work. I went and tried to keep some form of integrity intact. I am a strong believer that there was an underlying reason behind my dismissal. I was due a fairly hefty pay increase, this month.

As for the content on this site, yes there are images that can by many eyes be deemed as porn. But I think that is where the a very thin line is drawn.

Message edited on: 04/27/2005 03:45

Oh wow, an open letter from Birddie. A member who joined few weeks ago and did nothing productive except starting stupid threads and then wandered away or made comments on subjects she had no idea about (Heart'Song!) She admitted that she swapped DAZ stuff with friends, was told that is called warez and then was suprised when banned? LOL Sorry, but she can blame herself for being banned and not Carolly!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=2222306

"I am a strong believer that there was an underlying reason behind my dismissal. I was due a fairly hefty pay increase, this month."

@Shadowmonkey; As you're UK based, it might be worth finding your local Citizens' Advice Bureau (check the web for location), telling them the story, and asking if there might be a case of "constructive dismissal" to be made. It's a free service, so you've nothing to lose by asking.

m.

I have deleted a post in this thread since it contained an unwarranted personal attack on another member. Sorry for the discontinuity... Karen Poser Mod

@geogress,

When I look at employer/employee scenarios I try to look at both sides. If I were the employer I'd believe I had every right to determine what is or isn't allowed to be done with my computers.

The employer in this case isn't putting any restrictions on what shadowmonkey can do with his own computer. Thus, both sides are allowed to exist with each having authority over it's own computer and neither able to impose it's will on the other sides' computer. That seems fair to me.

p.s. This is just an explanation of my opinion. It is not my goal to argue, debate, fight, convert, or anything else.

;-)

Message edited on: 04/27/2005 09:32

*"When I look at employer/employee scenarios I try to look at both sides. If I were the employer I'd believe I had every right to determine what is or isn't allowed to be done with my computers.

The employer in this case isn't putting any restrictions on what shadowmonkey can do with his own computer. Thus, both sides are allowed to exist with each having authority over it's own computer and neither able to impose it's will on the other sides' computer. That seems fair to me."*

Exactly but I would go further and include the employees' computer if the screen were in view of customers. If viewing the galleries here could affect my business, my livelyhood, I will have control over it.

When I work at my other, on-call, job I take my computer and have plenty of free time with it. I make sure it's only visible to me and in the back as it's a one person office. However, even in that circumstance if my boss were to ask me to not visit certain sites on the off chance a supervisor could pop in, it's my job to respect her wishes. It would be selfish of me to ignore that and scream "my rights!" at her while ignoring hers.

I really don't see where this thread is going. Is it really censorship? Sounds more to me like an employer exercising their rights to control over their resources (not the right word but it's only 6.30 am) I've employed people before - sure we didn't have internet, but if we did, I'm sure they would have been employed to work for me - not surf the web. Let's face it the employer pays for the Internet Service - so he has the final say - unless you had a contract relating to your employment that clearly stated that you were entitled to X hours on the internet per day.

I would have to agree that it is your employer who pays the bills and i am sure they are not ( or were not) paying you to surf the net. Just my 2 pennies for what they are worth I am Canadian after all :)

I agree with tasiger and odeathoflife. It is their equipment, their workspace, their bandwith, their electricity...they get to make the rules.

Shadowmonkey said: "As for a idea that maybe I was miss using the internet on company time, I would refer my self to the company policy. This clearly states that I was intituled to use the Internet if permission was granted (which it was). I could use the Internet in free time and on quiet time, which were the periods within which I used it." An employee is entitled to a warning first if his employers don't like what he's viewing after having told him that he actually can use the net while at work, and I think an Employment Tribunal would agree, assuming no other factors exist that we don't know about.

Where I work, recently not one, but several people got let go for sending and receving questionable e-mails.
Apparently there was a lot of dirty jokes and frolicking back and forth via the company computers.
These folks had no idea since they always deleted their personal mail after and made sure no one saw anything.
What working people don't realize is that on a network everything, EVERYTHING is logged on the server and it's a great place to find a paper trail reason to 'downsize'!

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 04:45

I also agree with tasiger and odeathoflife. If I were a boss I would have terminated a person on the spot if I walked by & saw a nude. As it is, at our office(accounting - small office)...one of the bosses insists on viewing porn.....the number of times I've walked in and seen a crotch shot is beyond my fingers & toes in count. I think it's disgusting...but since I'm only 1 of 2 women(and have complained) nothing has been done. The men in the office range from 41-67. I'm waiting for a client to walk back & see this...as our clients freely stroll to the others offices. We will see what happens then.

So, yep...If I'd seen nudes you would have been terminated on the spot. Sorry to sound harsh...but that's how I see it. Didn't you think to put the nudity filter on while at work? That's what I do.

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 18:41

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 18:42

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 18:44

My comment may sound late and obvious but... people, c'mon, if you care about your job, never browse your interest sites in the office. Nudity or not. That's not what you're paid for. Leave private browsing for when you come back home. It's that simple - for me at least.

"That's not what you're paid for." I believe he clearly stated that it was done during "free time" which I believe he means during breaks etc. and not during time he is supposed to be doing other work. Since he was given permission to use the internet during those times the company has no right dismissing him without giving a warning that certain sites are off limits on the work computer. As rosity is not a "porn site", but an art site, they should have given a warning that rosity is considered by them to also be off limits. A clear case of unfair dismissal.

Gee - reading all the above just makes you think how things have changed over the years. I'm only in my late 40's but when I started work back in the early 70's it was certainly different from what people "expect" now and sometimes get for that fact. Internet at work? Back then you couldn't even make a personal call from the company phone! You even had to wait for them to unchain your leg so you could go buy your lunch....:) But Seriously, In those days - the bosses' time was the bosses' time and he didn't care what you did - as long as it was done for him and the company. If not you would be shown the door! But now days it seems the Employee has gained rights at the expense of the Employers.

hmmmm... tough break. I'm so sorry for you and hope you aren't out of work too long. Good luck.

Unfortunately (you want the truth?), regardless of what your bosses think is 'filth' (cuz I'd bet a lot of them look at a lot worse when they get home [or even behind the closed doors of their office]), they have a responsibility to run a productive, behavior appropriate office. And I don't think your job had anything to do with browsing Renderosity or any other site. That's a strike. If your viewing was excessive, whether or not you had work in front of you, it gives your employers reason to question your performance. In my Burger King days when I had absolutely nothing to do I was expected to find something.

I got in a skirmish with employers many moons ago because, back then, I read Playboy in the employee lunch room. Apparently a couple of women found it offensive. Mind you now, I wasn't flipping the centerfold and checking out pictorials. I was reading the articles. But still... My employers were embarrassed just saying something to me about it. Even the one female partner thought it was my business. But they also couldn't let the women in the office think their concerns were ignored. They didn't necessarily tell me to stop, but we discussed it and I decided to stop. But get this? One of these women assessed my computer and found a short story I'd written that contained vulgar language and sexual references (porno? no; it was about a sexually repressed man trying to enjoy a porno movie while suffering the interruptions of his family) and had reported that as well. Now my employers told them THAT was none of their business, but the Playboy... [Now let's factor in the women in question weren't pleased with me to begin with. (I was the only black male secretary in an all-white law firm and even the female partner admitted that had a lot to do with it.) My point here being THEY were looking for something to use against me. And perhaps that's a[n unmentioned] point in your story as well...] I'd say, in general, nudity at the office can always be viewed as inappropriate and since you don't own the business you can't dictate how others react to what YOU consider art. (Especially when you're browsing on their dime...) Strike two.

And all that stuff about Stephen King and movies is irrelevant. Stop applying what you think matters to what others have to do to run their business. The world of private practice and the entertainment industry are different animals. [Oh, in his other life, Stephen King taught English. I'd bet if he gave his students writings about sex, uhn, yeah, he'd'a gotten fired.]

Lastly (and strike three) you don't get to decide what's appropriate to view on somebody's else property while they're paying you to do something else. Anything you do that has nothing to do with your paid responsibilities is a risk taken.

My last employer banned Renderosity on their machines. Period. Type it in and get a warning right there on screen. That stunned me because I found it hard to believe that that many people were likely viewing it and thought (completely paranoid) I alone had initiated this. (I ultimately discovered just certain aspects of Render triggered the lock-down, not necessarily any illicit content.) But I was more disappointed than anything. I don't spend a lot of time on the 'Net and Render was one of the view sites I did check out daily. But I didn't get mad or anything. After all, it's their connection, their mouse, mouse pad, etc...

I hate to say, but I can't help thinking there's a lot more to this story than we're hearing. I can't believe your employer didn't think enough of your contributions to the firm to first have a conversation or issue a warning. Going straight to leave/be fired makes me wonder if you were working for the Gestapo or we're only hearing a diluted version.

Anyway, my thoughts. I hope they don't inflame. And as someone who was out of work for a helllll of a long time after 9/11 I hope you get on your feet soon and look back on this and say 'so what.'

take care and good luck

kmw

Message edited on: 04/29/2005 15:24

I have seen some position about the relationship between the employer and the employee that I don't agree to much, it all depend how people consider this relationship:

1. Master and slave.
2. A simple exchange of work for money.
   If accessing Renderosity site, even the case of real porn sites, doesn't affect the quality of your work or maybe improve your work in case #2 is irrelevant, but for case #1 is very bad because they are not interested in your work, they only want to have a good and obbedient slave.

Message edited on: 04/29/2005 16:44

With a work ethic like that, I'm glad I'm not paying for your salary.

It's very easy: want my work?, pay it. Don't want my work, don't pay. Nothing more, for moral lessons is enough with the church.

But, Kawecki, if you as an employee are generating complaints that customers are seeing naked images when they come in for business and it affects the business, otherwise known as the livelyhood of my family, guess what? You're work won't do me any good no matter the quality.

(gee, not a religious thing about that, go figure)

First at all how a company can allow that a customer can see what is in the employee's monitor? A employee that works with a computer has confidential data of the company in the screen and so, no outsider can be allowed to see its contents! If the employee use the computer for working, for playing games or for visiting porn sites is only an internal affair of the company and the only ones who can know the contents are the employees and the boss, if he knows!

Not every business is 'corporate', hon.

"If the employee use the computer for working, for playing games or for visiting porn sites"

Well I have to agree with dialyn, glad I don't have to pay your salary....

As someone who enjoys pornography and will NEVER apologize for that, I can state clearly there is nothing on this site I consider to be even close to porn. Nothing which tittilates me in any way. Sure, there are some bare breasts and asses. So what? Your employer obviously has a very limited opinion of what constitutes objectionable material. Frankly, I wouldn't have a problem with a 12 year old surfing rosity. I think you could have a legitimate case in court about this matter, but from the way you described your job, it doesn't sound as if it would be worth that much foofaraw.

You might not but when it comes to others we have to make some concessions.
In a place of business, no nudity is simply safe for all concerned. Hardly draconian.

"In a place of business, no nudity is simply safe for all concerned." It only depend on the type of business, for running a church is not a good idea, but there exist some other business that are based on nudity.

Kawecki, keep in mind the concept of "common sense". I'm obviously not talking of nudity based businesses/shops/stores/etc. Offices, general merchandise stores, etc. Places you don't expect to be subjected to nudity or porn.

Porn is one thing and nudity is another thing. Porn is normaly restricted to places that deal with porn, but nudity, depending on where you live, can be easily found in TV comercial propaganda associated with the product, and before you think about other things, I am talking about soap, shampoos, beer, beauty products, towels, baby products, etc!

Message edited on: 05/03/2005 22:53

The definition of "porn" is not relevant here an employer is a private property owner or the authorized agent thereof . in this respect they have the same authority as a home owner to define what shall/shall NOT, be allowed on THIER PROPERTY end of story.

Sorry to hear about you loosing your job,,that sucks.. There are all sorts of filter on our computers at work...Sometimes they make sense... Sometimes they don't.. I can log on to this site no problem...(I think if I looked at too many naked Vickie pics they might catch on to that) :-) Generally, I just check "my" forum (MojoWorld) However, I can't get onto MojoWorld.org site...it's blocked as "Games" The weirdest one, was the other day I was doing legit research at work...Looking at small format digital consoles.. I clicked on a link to a place that sold a console I was interested in.(PRICE CHECKING).and it was blocked as "Pornography"...It was a legit retailer.. Always check your companys Computer use policy..

Sorry to hear about you loosing your job,,that sucks.. There are all sorts of filter on our computers at work...Sometimes they make sense... Sometimes they don't.. I can log on to this site no problem...(I think if I looked at too many naked Vickie pics they might catch on to that) :-) Generally, I just check "my" forum (MojoWorld) However, I can't get onto MojoWorld.org site...it's blocked as "Games" The weirdest one, was the other day I was doing legit research at work...Looking at small format digital consoles.. I clicked on a link to a place that sold a console I was interested in.(PRICE CHECKING).and it was blocked as "Pornography"...It was a legit retailer.. Always check your companys Computer use policy..

We heard you the first time Bruce....lol Tom

"The definition of "porn" is not relevant here an employer is a private property owner or the authorized agent thereof. in this respect they have the same authority as a home owner to define what shall/shall NOT, be allowed on THIER PROPERTY end of story." Yes he has this right and he can dismiss the employee without any special reason, but he MUST follow all the procedures of dismission required by LAW and he MUST PAY all what correspond to the employee in case of dismision.