Aye, Rochr just put out his newest pic in several weeks I think. And czarnyrobert (who did the "famous" appeal) does them maybe once a month. I tried spending a month on an image once, and it turned out terribly. I now spend between three days and a week on them, sometimes longer. But I very rarely put out something that took me fifteen minutes to make, and then it's usually a model or an effect of some sort. And I have a lot more time to spend on a pic per day (I spent eight hours straight on my "Traug" pic, and it's still not finished), because it's summer, I'm in school, and no summer classes, and of course I'm a geek and so I have no life. =) I think that newbies should download a model and learn what makes it tick. Modify it in some way before using it in your pic, if you absolutely must use it in your pic. Better yet, take a look through it, try to recreate it on your own. As Dann-o said, if you ever want to profit from your work at all, you must do everything yourself. This is yet another reason why I am leery of using other peoples' work, because I may want to profit from it or give it to someone else to use commercially. Bottom line, learn to make your own models. Maybe you can't do it now, but it will pay off in the long run.

Aye, it's called a learning curve for a reason! Like learning everything, the more you do it, the easier it becomes to do... I remember starting out in 3D with Ray Dream Studio 5, which eventually became Carrara. I had no idea what I was doing! I just knew I wanted to do it... Problem with that whole situation was I got Brcye 3d (it moves!) at the same time. And Poser 3. I thought of it like : Bryce for landscapes, Poser for people, RDS for putting it all together and "finishing" images. Never finished one image in RDS, although I learned nearly everything there was to know about it. In the end, everything ended up in Bryce, which had MUCH better rendering, greater ease of use, and of course the Materials Lab. So I just used RDS as a modeler for awhile. And then I found Rhino, after trying demos for Amapi and Truespace. It flowed. I was making stuff easily the first time I used it! But even so, I've nowhere near mastered Rhino, although I feel like I can make anything in the world! It's a very free-feeling program, to me. It CLICKED into my brain... But there's a whole nother side to this whole debate, and that is the Character side. I still haven't ever modeled an entire character, or rigged anything more than tentacles. I've been working on a NURBS dragon head for years, and gotten nowhere. I don't know if I'll ever dip into this area, so to overstate my Hypocrisy completely : I use Poser. "Why don't you model all your own people, Mr. Smarty Pants?" Because I hate Poser. And because I suck at character modeling. Too boring for me, I like to see results in less than a year. Maybe I'll learn it one day, but not today, and not tomorrow. So if I seem elitist or obnoxious about this topic, just laugh and go, "He can't even model a DRAGON head! HA!" Take that, Self. You whimp.

LSD-- #53 I'm almost starting to like you---- LOL haha You let your guard down, maybe you are a human, albeit one with great technical skills and more than a lions share of artistic talent. Don't change who you are. None are here by accident.

skiwillgee-- Nah, LSD's a dark sorcerer. Everybody knows that, he's not human. =) LSD-- Just out of curiosity, none of my business, but are people calling you elitist? You seem to mention it a lot, so one merely wonders. I think you are helpful and value your comments. But that's just me I suppose. =)

No, nobody calls me an elistist but myself, Shinyary. I FEEL like my own personal issues affect my judgement, in non-emotional situations like Renderosity forum threads. My problem is arrogance as a shield. The REAL problem with that is that I feel things like pity and shame for feeling bad about feeling superior. It's a webwork of silliness, but to sum it up I don't want to alienate anyone, I fear alienation towards myself and others... And my need to feel important is an extension of my drive to visit this site and to share and learn. My shame comes in because I already know nearly everything this proggy has to offer. And I fear that even THINKING this is cutting me off from learning more. And also, I fear that people think I'm some kind of asshole, because I often come across that way. I wish I could summon the patience I have for my son for my dealings with the 3D world, in general. Or with myself. Imagine that, infinite patience with YOURSELF? Now there's something to sleep on... Goodnight, my friends! So, I suppose right now I'm just at a point where i analyze everthing too much, including mine and other's artwork. For every critique I put out to others, I probably give myself a thousand that day for my own projects. Perfectionism? Compulsion? Some kind of insane psychotic episode? Nah, I just am NOT where I wanted to be with 3D right now. I still cannot express myself with it, only rarely do my images mean anything to me other than relating stories. If I can't portray my emotions in my artwork, who's the newbie, anyway? Pah. I suck at translation. My emotions are lost in the AMD interference. I guess that gives me something to work on...

Awww, poor LSD, ain't it a shame? There there there. ggg I learn a good deal from your critiques, and I haven't yet found you too harsh... yet... I am in awe of your abilities and those of others like Rochr, Drac, Rayraz... oh heck pretty much everybody here. If I haven't mentioned anybody it's cos I have a brain the size of a pea and a memory like a sieve and I ache - just been planting pepper plants for my brother - and did I do it right? Not on your nelly! Rah rah freebies, Rah rah Wings, Rah rah Bryce modelling, booleans, the DTE, playing with mats... oh everything - it's all such FUN.

oh crap, now I do like this LSD guy. he's alive... He's Alive...HE'S ALIVE !!! (insert maniacal laugh) LSD--- How old is your son.. Mine as 17, driving, and wanting money for college.. (insert fear hear) PS to all who have entered this thread-- This has been a learning experience for me. I know there are those who just read and haven't ever the nerve to submit or comment. The differing views on freebies and such has helped more than you may imagine. So, before this thread dies, go render and learn, no matter which path you take. LSD is human!!!!

LSD you are not so arrogant but on occasion I had to look at the top of my browser. I thought this must be CG talk. I know how you feel I am nowhere near where I want to be with this and I have been at it for some time. Character modeling and animating are still eluding me and that is where I want to go. Oh well.

Yup, LSD and Dann-o, I think that anyone (myself included) who thinks he is at the best he can be in anything has hit a definite plateau and will never learn. I look at, say, MarioG's gallery, and if you go to his first images posted, well... to be blunt, they are crap. But look at his latest image, and it's about the best that Bryce can offer. So there is hope for me yet! =) And don't beat yourself up too much LSD. People like me, like Fran, really do value what you say because it is worthwhile. And Dann-o, same with me, I want to learn organic modeling but I'm not ready to even try yet. Maybe I'll try soon as I'm done with my "Traug" pic.

LSD: "Promoting mediocrity for the sake of "being nice" is why the entire Bryce gallery is full of crap, and precisely why nobody takes Bryce seriously. Telling people that garbage looks good only holds them back from growth. They come to expect less of themselves because they think it's "okay" to make crap. It doesn't help them, it hinders them more." This is not my point of view. I didn't say anything of the sort. At best, this an extremely loose interpretation of what I said. I said to encourage beginners, and let them use freebies and Poser until they understand Bryce better. Then they can make their own stuff. I didn't say to tell them that every "sphere over water" is a masterpiece. I mean, encourage them, instead of beating them over the head with their own lack of experience. There's a big difference. I'm not mad about all the words that have been shoved into my mouth, but maybe I should be. Wouldn't you? :^) Peace, Love, and Understanding, John

Getting back to the issue with using freebies in commercial render, that's why a few of my freebies are in the PD now, and the others I just like to know if people have used them. I put a freebie up to be free, so I don't restrict it to just non-commercial. Which reminds me to check some of my earlier licences, as this is a relatively new idea of mine...

Only been learning 3D graphics for about 1-1/2 years now...think that's pretty new considering the amount of information to learn and digest. My opinion is that most of you have been using 3D for many years and have completely forgotten the fear one feels when they post their first image...how relieved they feel when someone makes a nice comment (even though it may be very rudimentary image). I truly believe that encouraging comments keep people learning and not give up. I have commented on many beginner's work and watched them improve dramatically in short periods of time. Should I have waited to comment until they actually produced a masterpiece? I do NOT believe that commenting on beginner work keeps them creating beginner work. If they create an image that is crude but used color skillfully, I'll say so. next time they will pay attention to their use of color and get even better at it. I can say this because this is what I experienced with the kindness of comments on my first "crappy" postings. Nancy

Burpee-- True. I think LSD was actually the first one to ever comment on any of my images that I posted here (As I recall, it started out, "Aye, it's wonderful..."). He pointed out a few things I should fix after giving a complement. I think that this is the way to go. If someone does want to learn, then they will appreciate your advice, whether they take it or not. If someone does not want to learn, but just continue the way they are going, then no matter what you do they will not learn. This is an axiom, but nevertheless: people do not learn unless they want to. Therefore I think the best formula (and the one I always tend to follow) is: "complement + advice + complement = encouragement". =) And there generally is something good about every image that you can find to point out. Nobody likes only criticism all the time.

That makes sense Shinyary. When I was on a mentorship course we were taught the idea of giving the 'praise sandwich' which was 'praise, criticism, praise' ie if you have something you need to get a person to improve upon you will get them to listen to you better if you first get their rapport by telling them something positive, then put in the thing that needs work, then end on a positive note. Having had to work in environments where my boss believed that telling us everything we did was crap with the belief that this was the way to motivate us to prove him wrong, and in environments where I got praise sandwiches I can honestly say my performance (and mental health) was a hundred per cent better in the latter. And LSD, though your comments on things to improve are exacting, they have never felt personal to me and I have appreciated your input without feeling criticised. I'd say you have a valuable skill. I think many people share a tendency to have more patience out in the world than with their own families, either internet or workplace. It's one of those facts of being human.

Patience is the key, in all things. "Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment often is more potent. It can guide reactions whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them. " --Bene Gesserit Advice to Postulants (Frank Herbert, "Chapterhouse : Dune")

LSD, you're starting to make me actually want to read "Dune". Stop it at once! =)

Dune should be required reading, before people can have sex or godforbid, procreate. I think the Creator should have everyone read it and take a comprehension quiz prior to binding our souls into physical bodies, or something. It's one of the best pieces of literature ever written! But it doesn't get really good until the fourth book, God Emperor of Dune. The first ones are really almost just a prelude, the last three are goddamn excellent!

lol, well, you've convinced. I'm reading the famous "Lensman" series by E.E. "Doc" Smith right now, I'll look up "Dune" if I ever finish. =)

Well, my last comment on this thread I noted I was actually starting to like lordstormdragon once I got a glimpse of the person behind the words. I also noted to self I wasn't going to post anymore comments (I'm missing enough sleep as it is) but.......... This I've got to know. Do all 3D art nut cases, self included, read the sci-fi classics. I've done all the Douglas Adam's Hitch Hiker series, all the Dunes, all of Azimnoth (sp?) Harry Seldon and Robot series', and dang of I didn't run across 10 old paperback Heinleins I had read years ago I my attic and I'm going to read them again (my favorite author), EE Smith "Lensman" series, Greg Bear, etc If I had to pick one best of every sci-fi I' read it is Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"

I've read nearly every book Heinlein ever wrote before "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls". My favorites are "Starship Troopers", "The Puppet Masters", and "Starman Jones". "Have Space Suit Will Travel" was alright. I'm reading the "Lensman" series straight through right now for the first time. I've read a quantity of Azimov's books. My absolute all time favorite book by him is "Azimov's Mysteries". They are so clever and scientifically based. "I, Robot" was pretty interesting as well, and I've read "Fantastic Voyage" a long time ago. I've read every single one of Douglas Adams' "Hitchiker" series. The first one's got to be the best. Favorite of all time? Hmm... ever read "The Icarus Hunt" by Timothy Zahn? I love it. My favorite's got to be either that or "Manta's Gift" by the same author. Probably "Manta's Gift": it's even more original. Never read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", another one to add to my list of required reading. =)

I've read all of Asimov's ficiton works, and only a few Heinlein books... "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is STILL one of the best books ever...! But if you've never seen 'em, give Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap Cycle" a shot. First, "The Real Story - The Gap into Conflict". They are some of the best sci-fi out there, and definitely the most hardcore and "adult" of any sci-fi on the planet! And "Xenogenesis" by Octavia Butler is also excellent...

I like some SF, Nightfall by Asimov is one of my favourites. I've read quite a lot of varied SF, Roger Zelazny, Robert Holdstock.. years ago now so I forget. Then drifted into Science fantasy like Tad Williams, Katharine Kerr, Jenny Jones - not even sure why such books get tagged with 'science'. Nowadays I only read software manuals and psychology books... hmm, they sometimes seem to cross over in similarity ;)

What happened now we are in LSD's book club. Well I still like Tolkein one of the best things he writes about in his books is......food. I don't find that littel tactile thing in other books too often. I also like other fantasy like David Eddings and Gene Wolf's works. Sci Fi I have been particular to Arthur C. Clarks stuff. Rendezvous with Rama and Childhoods end were my favorites of his. Harry harrison for doing serious things like Make Room and on the other side doing the Stainless steel Rat. Latley I have been into other writing Hemmingway's A Farwell to Arms. A great read. Anyways we now have oficially changed the tread to book corner which is cool by me.

I liked "The Door Into Summer" Heinlien. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" was also very good. "The Day After Tomorrow" is one of my favourites. A.E.Van Vogt's "The House That Stood Still", and Lloyd Biggle Jr's "Monument" are just excellent. Azimov's "Caves of Steel" & "The Naked Sun" and all the Foundation books... There just isn't enough room to list all my favoiurites!

yeah! I couldn't think of Azimov's books that Harry Seldon was the focus. You got it. It's the "Foundation" trilogy (which was actually four books because he finished the series off with a prequel) thank you FranOneTheEdge for the correct spelling of Azimov and jogging my memory.

Actually, is Azimov spelled with a "z" or an "s"? Anyhow, David Eddings isn't bad. It's just that, if he's the one I'm thinking of, all of his books kind of run together. I'm not sure that I like how his main character always seems so clearly superior to all of his enemies. There's no real tension there, because we know that the protagonist can't die because he's just, well, so invulnerable. Some of his stories are interesting, though. I liked "The Redemption of Althalus". Don't forget Alan Dean Foster with such greats as "Aliens", "Nor Crystal Tears", and "Sentenced to Prism". "Nor Crystal Tears" is, I think, the best first contact sci-fi novel I have ever read. Andre Norton wasn't bad with "Catseye". Kind of an interesting book, but not great.

A.E.Van Vogt Voyage of the Space Beagle great concept. the reading is sort of dated which makes it more interesting. There is deep space travel between stars without computers. Everything is atomic this and atomic that.

Sounds rather like "When Worlds Collide" by an author whose name escapes me at the moment. It's so old, that when they travel through space they still thought that they would be terribly disoriented in zero gee, their hearts not working properly, not being able to tell up from down, etc. Kind of fun to read what they used to think space travel would be like. Oh, yes, and their ship does have an atomic reactor. I can see six-year-olds of generations future watching Star Trek reruns, and laughing at our fusion reactors. Why, we couldn't even think of plasma power. Shame on us. =)

Oh the David Eddings ones I liked (The Belgariad series) has a young boy - Garion - as the main protagonist and he definitely wasn't superior to his enemies in fact he was just the opposite. I've not heard of "The Redemption of Althalus" though. The Alan Dean Foster ones I prefered were the stories about Flinx - "The Tar Aim Krang", "Orphan Star", "Bloodhype", "The End Of The Matter". I wish there had been more of those. Oh yes, I liked "Catseye" too. And a few others of his, but not all of them. Oh and Issac's second name IS spelled "ASIMOV". Yet I found it on the net under the z spelling. Then there's Gordon R Dickson's Dorsai series.