..... all these very uninspiring, untalented, rush job, not to well or even naked dressed ladies in the galleries?

Each day I do have to browse many pages to find a well done, imspiring image.

I'm getting bored with all of these anyone can do it kind of images. Please put some effort into your images, anyone can show a pair of breasts. Can't beleive people spent their money on Poser just to do that.

Are most people showing their works really that untalented or just plain old lazy?

It's no wonder people think Poser is just a toy..... most of the images shown in the Poser gallery just look like pics made by kids playing with their toy.

Sorry, just had to rant a little. Finally set the "Nudity in the galleries?" option to NO. Hopefully that helps. Imo a lot of the images are just a waste of webspace and bandwith.

Message edited on: 06/16/2005 19:13

Unfortunally setting the "Nudity in the galleries?" option to NO doesn't do the complete trick, still got to browse through many ladies with vey little clothes on.

Hi. I'm female and don't do pics of big naked boobs. I like to think that the stuff I come up with is more art than porn (there is that one image in my gallery though). I do things based on how I feel and what I'm thinking about. I must admit that my work is a bit amatuerish because I am an amature. Kristta PS. I do have days like you are having now with the gallery.

"I must admit that my work is a bit amatuerish because I am an amature." I don't mind that at all, I don't consider myself a pro at all. Amateurs as well as pros can create great looking stuff. You're not belonging to the catagory I was reffering too at all! But if you're inspiration only goes as far as to have one lady almost naked or completely naked with a simple background, that to me seems sad.

Are most people showing their works really that untalented or just plain old lazy? Once the breasts appear on the screen all the blood rushes to the other end of their body and their brains no longer function. Its a symptom of X chromosome deficiency which is genetic and completely incurable.

There are an awful lot of nudes out there, but it's because it's so much EASIER to make a naked woman lounging on a blank background (or whatever) than it is to make a realistic, good looking, convincingly clothed piece. In my opinion, the challenge in Poser is to make interesting, somewhat realistic scenes WITH CLOTHES (or at least, without showing too much skin) and to take the items that the Poser community has to offer, and use them in a way that's unexpected or changed enough that the very jaded community won't recognize them. There is only so much lingerie, bondage clothes and retextured MyShirts that you can look at without getting completely bored. I think that if you can look at someone's art and not recognize the figure, or are surprised with the way that figure has been used, then the piece is a success!

All this is BS and artistic snobery!!
People do nudes and pinups because most of us don't have super computers and hours to render.
My longest is 6 hours for a Poser render. And Poser has the fastest render engine around.
Also, makeing Pinups is like singing acapello(sp).
If you can do a great pinup you can do great "others".

Minimalism is an artform on it's own.

These kind of threads are for nothing more then saying "Look how good I am".

Message edited on: 06/16/2005 20:50

I hate looking at women who look like it took 20 gallons of silicone to pump them up. Especially Vicky, the more you increase breast size the more ridiculous the flat expanse between them looks.

simon cowell go home ;-) I love renderosity because it allows anyone to post, even us amateaur hacks, and most people are kind enough to leave positive comments. There's enough negativity. One can always skip over images that don't have an interesting thumbnail. I myself am impressed with the amount of talent that posts to this website. Nearly every page contains interesting and sometimes spectacular pictures.

"There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion." - Lord Acton. Minimalism is a true artform. Not all nudes are crap. Not all of us are lazy. I may not be talented, but I spend an average of 2 weeks on most of my images, because you know what, I enjoy doing them. And I do like nudes, so sue me. :oP Carry on with your rants.... if it'll make you feel better. peace, JV.

Rants? Narrow-mindedness? I see that in the people who shot back with quick, angry words at the slightest percieved criticism of their own work. Stepping back a little, every time this argument, or a host of similar and related ones ("Is Poser art?" "Why aren't there more critiques in the galleries?") show up I find the same terrible confusion between Art and Craft. Sure, there is something irreducible, even intagible, and of course deeply personal, that we call Art. But there is also Craft. Craft can be described, quantified, taught, discussed, critiqued. Crappy workmanship is crappy workmanship. And bad craftsmen ALWAYS try to hide behind the "Art" flag. I play piano, badly. I never spent enough time and energy to learn how to play well. Can I claim I am a great piano player, full of artistic fire, and it's not my fault I shirk practice? No. As an Artist I can make whatever claims I like, but in the Craft of putting ten fingers on 88 pieces of ivory and ebony (okay, white and black plastic), I stink. Anyone who plays piano well enough to give a recital has EARNED the right to sneer at me. And let's go further. I decide to move forward on piano, and I hire a tutor. Shall we attempt to talk the intangibles of Art, with me hotly defending my own inner, hidden talent? That's a waste of my money and both of our times. We can, however, talk Craft. She can teach craft. I can learn craft. If I have learned the lesson, I can be tested in it. Craft, is, therefor, more profitable of discussion. And craft is always there, in every form of work. No work is completely without tangible form, and no work is without an audience. Craft allows us to ask if the artist chose the tools and the methods that communicated something to that audience. A generalization; all generalizations are flawed. Every item covered by a generalization is invidual, and there will always be borderline cases and complete exceptions. But that does not mean generalization is a useless tool for conversation. "Winters are cold" gives us a way to talk about snow country and winter clothing and heating bills. It is not required that each day of each winter in each corner of the globe actually be "cold" according to some unbiased standard. So don't react to a generalization that the galleries are indeed populated by a lot of blank-eyed Vickies -- with no reason to be where they are and doing what they are doing except that their breasts are bared and delightful to view -- by saying that such images are what you come to the gallery for, or that you, in particular, do images like that but have Higher, Artistic reasons for it.

"Its a symptom of X chromosome deficiency which is genetic and completely incurable." Thank god for that. ;-)

As far as I'm concerned people can make nudes, that's up to them. But even with nudes, there are excelletent artistics ones and the cheaply put together ones. There are way to much cheaply put together ones. "People do nudes and pinups because most of us don't have super computers and hours to render." That's the strangest comment I've ever seen, what a weird excuse. I've got no super computer and don't have hours to render either, but still get way beyond nudes. Thanks everyone for the input. I'm not in some ban the nudes crusades, but I'm more in a 'we could do better' mood.

Yep we all can do better. Even tho I have yet to post a "Poser" render, I've seen enough BB nudes that I almost didnt buy poser all together. There is a lot to this program that I dont think 80% of the people here know about. 6 hours of render time? Although I render in trueSpace, I do not think I've ever gone past 30 minutes for a render to complete (I'm using an Athlon 1.33Ghz 266 clocked Motherboard, with 512 DDR ram and a Radeon 9600XT/128MB DDR (Windows ME) that aint no "supercompter" Likely I wont have a render with any poser figures in it until another week or two. But when I do post my renders, I'll promise you now that there will not be any naked BB's.... (at least not badly rendered ones, hehe).

I like to see naked 3D figures. Not for sexual reasons, but I'm fascinated by how close we could come to presenting a human figure in 3D that can pass for the real thing. Granted, that's hard to do in any software, but it's still cool when someone comes close. I think there's a huge difference between the nudity seen in these galleries and what would be considered pornography, which is gratuitous and hardly of any artistic value. I personally could find artistic value in just about any nude 3d render, doesn't matter if it's technically perfect or not. I feel if I disable nudity in my preferences, I may miss out on a real masterpiece that just happens to contain nudity. I would dread to think that due to my self-imposed censorship, I never got to see a "Michelangelo's David" that may have been posted here. I'd be willing to swim through an ocean of big boobies (pardon the expression) just to find one tiny island sanctuary of paradise. So, to answer the original question proposed here: No, I don't really get sick of it, because it's a small price to pay when you do find something worth looking at.

So is urine in a jar craft or art? Marque

you dont need a super computer its a poor excuse,

you'd probably enjoy cgtalk...www.cgtalk.com. it is a pretty large website for various types of cg art. (poser doesn't even have a forum there...so you don't get all the nekkid vickies.) poser has only a few viable 3d models that are used extensively. with so few base meshes, it is no wonder that the gallery has so much same ol', same ol'. at cgtalk...folks make their own models, rig them, and make the clothing and props for them. you will see a great deal of variety, there. not just people, but realms, creatures, buildings, tons of innovative stuff.

Personally, I don't care for the oversized boobs images, but it's my decision to look....or not look! Art is something that is subjective. What may be a masterpiece to one person, may be trash to another. It is in the eye of the beholder, as is often said, and perhaps we shouldn't be so judgemental.

Anyone who plays piano well enough to give a recital has EARNED the right to sneer at me.

I suppose that this means that someone who has achieved greatness in some area of endeavor then has the "right" to sneer at all other comers.

Uh.....no.

Such an individual is known as a prima donna.

They might even be the best at what they do. But their attitude both poisons and corrupts their art.

Talent tempered with a little humility impresses people far more than raw talent with nothing else underneath.

A sneer carries its own reward. People that are rude to their "inferiors" often find themselves eventually coming to a gray (or to a black) place in life. When they are finally forced to realize that the term "vanity" derives from a Latin root meaning "emptiness".

The applause doesn't last forever. And 100 years later even the best of us are usually forgotten. History remembers a bare handful -- out of all of the incredibly talented people that have ever lived.

Best to live one's life tempered with a little knowledge. We are all mortal.

Tit size and nudity are not issues in any respect. However, I do get tired of incredibly BAD renders - people who don't have the sense to learn the techniques first before they publish. :] Fish

There are equally aesthetically pleasing and non-aesthetically pleasing images in pretty much every gallery. Nudity has nothing to do with it. If you see an image that..well, to put it bluntly, looks like they grabbed a model, posed it, and adjusted the breast size to "Dolly Parton winces in Pain", then there is nothing keeping from you from either hitting the back button or giving constructive* criticism of the piece. I see new members in the gallery every week, and I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't mind a little "Hey, the lighting on that one is nice, here are a few other pointers, blah blah blah" over "A+ image, d00d! Lurv3 the t1ts!!". Besides...you never know who you might be giving a helping hand to. I mean, didn't someone, at some time, give you a helping hand in whatever it is you're good at? If you're good at posing, how did you get good? Did you just suddenly 'become' good at it, or did you study other's work, ask for pointers, or get unsolicited advice? Either way, someone else helped you get good at what you're doing. That's the kind of thing that keeps communities more...well, communal ;) MorriganShadow

Sorry, Xeno, but "earned the right to sneer" does not mean "is obligated to sneer." Most of the musicians I know are humble, friendly, and incredibly helpful to a learner like me. Again, you've focused on the wrong part of the equation. This is not about whether someone is making fun of you. This is whether you've earned the right to stand on a soapbox and say "I'm as good as they are." But why do I bother? Whenever any blanket observation is made about the galleries, or Poser art in general, a hundred angry people jump up immediately saying "But MY art isn't like that!" Well....good for you! But as long as people get their egos in a knot the moment any criticisms are heard, there will be no productive discussion -- and constructive critiques in the galleries will only be produced by the adventurous and the thick-skinned.

but "earned the right to sneer" does not mean "is obligated to sneer."

No one has ever earned the right to sneer.

If they do, then they'd best watch their own destination.

They'll eventually end up in the same place as their targets.

A good thing to remember.

This is not about whether someone is making fun of you. This is whether you've earned the right to stand on a soapbox and say "I'm as good as they are."

This point is a bit OT -- because no one has made such a claim.

But of course: we are focusing on the wrong side of the equation here.

But as long as people get their egos in a knot the moment any criticisms are heard, there will be no productive discussion -- and constructive critiques in the galleries will only be produced by the adventurous and the thick-skinned.

If one issues a challenge, then one shouldn't be surprised when that challenge is answered.

Critics had best be prepared to receive criticism.

That's the way that this game is played. If one cannot handle a return critique, then one had best not issue an invitation by firing off an opening salvo in the first place.

Riiight. I don't know where this argument has gone, Xeno. I am not sure you have placed me on any "side" that I would agree with. I wonder if the argument you have put in my mouth is even one I would recognize. "Return critique" sounds like a swarmy way of putting "If you dare to say anything less than 'Best image in galleries ever!!!!' about my latest posting, then I will retaliate in the threads, and I will visit your gallery and flame everything there." I know you didn't intend it to be seen that way. Yes, an artist has every right to defend themselves. Further, a great many people do not wish critiques at all. Since we have no mechanism of identifying these.... IF I feel I can help with technical/historical/analytical aspects of an image, and IF the person seems open to being helped, and IF I have the time and the energy to study the image, study the other images in their gallery, and open my own books to make sure I am not confusing Dying Slave with Dying Gladiator....then I will post a constructive criticism. Mostly, I will save comment for chat, for when we are in real-time and the artist can respond in depth. I have suggested in the past we have a "critiques permitted" button. I find this discussion annoying, because of the attitudes so neatly described in your near-couplet above; "People are too lazy to give critiqes/people who give critiques should be flamed."

I agree with Fishnose I am an unrepentent 41 year old hetero male. it s not all the tits and ass that irks me ( see my gallery) its all the shabbily composed renders with Default or piss poor lighting NO shadows turned on( arrghh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Dumb subject matter (skinny chicks in thongs on the "battlefield") bad poses , bad camera, angles ,vacuous stares blatant product ads disguised as general gallery renders with a proud proclaimation of "NO POST WORK".

Yes, yes, here is my first attempt at the new art, a frontal attack on the stolid members of the Acadamie le Boobaire. I call it 'Intoxicated Man Passing Gallstone.' The flame tortured skull represents the agony of the human condition. The urinal is a metaphor for the evanescence of the spirit. The empty Jack Daniels bottle mirrors the ultimately vacuous futility of life. The worm is a semantic deconstruction of death, while the roach on the white floor is a chiaroscuro allegory of decay. Finally, the brain melting into the chaotic background symbolizes the encroaching madness of bourgeois society. Damn, I forgot shadows so I'm too embarassed to post it now. You'll just have to imagine how well it captures the utter vileness of human existence. "A work of art is the unique result of a unique temperament. Its beauty comes from the fact that the author is what he is. It has nothing to do with the fact that other people want what they want. Indeed, the moment that an artist takes notice of what other people want, and tries to supply the demand, he ceases to be an artist, and becomes a dull or an amusing craftsman, an honest or dishonest tradesman. He has no further claim to be considered as an artist." - Oscar Wilde

Ah, yes. And Oscar was so casual about spelling and punctuation, too.

"Return critique" sounds like a swarmy way of putting "If you dare to say anything less than 'Best image in galleries ever!!!!' about my latest posting, then I will retaliate in the threads, and I will visit your gallery and flame everything there."

I'm not above issuing the occasional critique myself.

But I don't whine about it when others respond to my initial critique with criticisms of their own.

No one is ever issued carte blanche to express an opinion (whether positive or negative) without consequence. There's always the off chance that someone else might take exception to what's been said.

The best response is to show them where they are wrong. Not to attack them for daring to respond to someone else's criticism.

I know you didn't intend it to be seen that way.

That's true.

Further, a great many people do not wish critiques at all. Since we have no mechanism of identifying these....

My suggestion would be that such individuals should avoid posting anything.

Make a noise, and you might attract attention. Sometimes unfavorable attention.

I have suggested in the past we have a "critiques permitted" button. I find this discussion annoying, because of the attitudes so neatly described in your near-couplet above; "People are too lazy to give critiqes/people who give critiques should be flamed."

Interesting. I have re-read my posts, and I can't seem to find that quotation contained anywhere therein.

Must be an argument which has been put in my mouth -- an argument that I don't recognize.

Ah, yes. And Oscar was so casual about spelling and punctuation, too.

I don't know about Oscar -- but Hemingway was.

Of course: he was so advanced beyond the rest of us mere mortals that he could get away with it. And still be a writer of classics.

.

Is the claim being made that Hemingway (an old newspaperman) never learned how to write properly? I dunno where the discussion is going (if anywhere) but I am sensing a strong devaluation of craft. And that annoys me. If you spent twenty years learning how to do something, and you do it well, do you have no right to a sense of accomplishment?

You can see the glass as half full or half empty. Either there are always new people coming in who aren't that experienced OR just a bunch of 'lazy' people who don't give a continental about what they post. Why assume the latter? There's nothing wrong with taking pride in your craft. Why bother with it otherwise? OTOH, getting peeved because others don't share your talent/dedication seems rather self-defeating. Better to feel good about your own skills than to bemoan the status quo IMO. There are places like CG Whatever that seem to weed out the rabble more but Renderosity is pretty much open to anyone who can see lightning and hear thunder.

Actually...I'm lousy at 3d. I would hope to find, somewhere, an environment where it is taken for granted that there is a desire to learn and improve. I've been to CG whatever, and that's a cut-throat, dismissive, unhelpful environment. And I was just in chat today with several people sharing images and WiPs for long, in-depth discussion on where they hoped to go with it and what might help them get there. And...please make your assumptions about someone else. Please give me the credit of having the same open-mindedness and acceptance you keep claiming as your own.

Obviously I misconstrued the 'crappy workmanship' thing, my bad. I'm sure I'm much lousier at 3D than you since I just like to play around with Poser to relax and don't have your degree of motivation. You're certainly not the only one who longs for more collegial striving for excellence. Lobby for a new forum, start a Google group... I fear the galleries etc. here will always leave you frustrated. Best wishes on your quest.

Just think.......all of those lousy images that other people keep posting in the galleries makes the excellent work produced by the chosen few look even better...........

For this reason alone -- we should be overjoyed to see amatuerish posts. The more the merrier.

In fact, highly skilled artists should adopt clone accounts -- and then deliberately post first-class drek in the galleries.

That way, everyone else will understand even more thoroughly the true greatness of their talent -- when they see the blatant contrast with talentless trash.

My opinion, based on having viewed so many galleries here, is that many people do not have the patience to pose the characters. Posing can be difficult and frustrating. But a unique position can make or break an image. You also do not have to rely on the Poser render as the final image. If you have photo editing software, go in there and experiment. Poser is meant to be a tool. Just one of many to help you create and open up new, and in my case, old worlds.

Message edited on: 06/18/2005 21:59

Perhaps there should be a forum dedicated to those who really want to learn how to better their images? Learning how to create style, composition lighting and postwork? (not only in poser but all 3D software) A lot of people do not know what an IBL is or how settings work with texture baking or radiosity. Atrists have to know the basics of these things in drawing but they are a technical "must" for 3D environments. Not everyone has to learn how to render "life-like" (I prefer the sureal-semi-painted look) and theres toon and many more. 3D sometimes requires multiple people to make an image. Some are better composition artist and fail at lighting, some can do remarkable poses but have no fashion sense. Everyone is different and 3D "Art" is not for everyone because of these different aspects that must be somewhat mastered to make the end-result a piece of "Art".

Perhaps there should be a forum dedicated to those who really want to learn how to better their images? Learning how to create style, composition lighting and postwork? (not only in poser but all 3D software) A critique forum? That's not a bad idea, IMHO. Might help the people who actually do want to learn and improve (as opposed to the oh-so-sensitive artistes who can't tolerate anything other than "Oooh, wonderful! Wow! You're great!"). bonni

"My opinion, based on having viewed so many galleries here, is that many people do not have the patience to pose the characters. Posing can be difficult and frustrating." Seems to me that a lot of people only have the patience to load V3, go over to the pose libs where they have the ready to be used packs for a character and body texture and ammply that to the figure. Also luckely with the same character they've purchased came a pose, so no extra work needed. It's a wonder they have the patience to go over to the hair lib and apply some hair to the figure. Now all that's left to do is hit the render button. Sorry, that sounds slightly sarcastic and it is. People don't have patience to pose there characters? If that was all, I would complain at all. People don't seem to have the patience for a lot of things like pose, lights, background, facial expressions, more creative and original faces and so on. Most people never get beyond the nude figure pack they've bought, that seems so boring to me. For me Poser is a great way to unleash creativity, but most people around here seem to lack that. You can create such marvelous things with Poser (and some postwork if needed), but then again that takes effort. On the other hand, I also blaim the current prices of good stuff. If the prices would be more reasonable, perhaps more people could afford clothes and such. They spent all of their money on a character and texture, with no money left to buy some clothes or other items that make the scene outstanding......

A lot of the problem has to do with the manuals. I've self taught myself the many different versions of Photo Shop, numerous manuals, videos and the sort. Posers manual is the worst I've ever come across. For a software that deals with creating images, there is very few illustrations. I've read a lot of criticism of the 'Poser 6 Revealed - the official guide'. I bought it and it helped me many different ways. I agree there needs to be a forum that critiques and helps fellow artists. I'm surprised and disappointed one doesn't exist. Though I've posted on my home page to my gallery that I am very open to critique I mostly get as has been mentioned, just accolades. I appreciated the few comments I get. But it does appear clear, most members are interested in the overly endowed bimbo pin-ups. Poser is a toy, like a video game to most people. If the merchants would create more realistic and creative accessories to go with the characters, things could be different. But the merchants and all their scanty clothing and numerous incarnations of the nude body only encourages people who use Poser as titillation.

Well I suppose if your goal is not to improve.

I thought my first renders were great... I look at them now and laugh because they suck.

I'm glad I had a lot of input from my fellow modelers to help me improve.
I know looking at my current stuff and now I always see room for improvement. I have to get rid of my "lazy-eye-view" and work at improving, push myself through my limitations.
I'm not trying to make "Realistic", I'm trying to improve my work into a "Style".

If you dont do this and be open to others helping you improve by critique, then you might as well re-evaluate the reasons for posting your rendered images.

I think the Critique Gallery would help as long as the critics post how "they" would improve the image, not just post a blurb like "I hate it" or "This sucks".
Critics in this kind of gallery should put in their valuable assistance (use this light, put this object there to improve composition, use this color/camera angle/render setting...) and write up a list of things THEY would do to make the render better. This would help everyone who posts in this catagory as they would expect this kind of input.

Message edited on: 06/19/2005 14:06

Muscrat, old topics rehashed? I suppose you made a similar useless response the first time around. Art should have an emotional impact. Like or dislike. Images made for sexual gratification and no other reason is not art. Especially in the simple minded fashion it is presented with Poser Characters. Nudity is beautiful, as long as there is a purpose to the picture other than titillation.

I thought my first renders were great... I look at them now and laugh because they suck. LOL! Yeah, you and me both. art is truly only judged by its creator because its value is also seen in the eyes of that same creator. (aesthetic theory) I see. Well, tell that to all the instructors I had in drawing, 2D design, 3D design (meaning, sculpture and such; this was in the days before there was much of anything in the way of 3D digital art), color theory, etc. They, for some bizarre reason, thought that we could all improve with constructive input (and I agree). Critique, and I mean real critique, that discusses the good points as well as the bits that might be up for improvement or at least "rethinking", really, truly, DOES help you improve. That goes for art, design of all kinds, many kinds of technical fields, music, dance, you name it. I get the "I don't really care what other people think" attitude (hey, lots of my stuff is done for my own pleasure only), but I don't get the "Don't tell me what I'm doing right or what I'm doing wrong" line of thought. Whatever. shrug bonni

I've suggested a critique forum on no less than three occasions. I have no interest in critiquing or being critiqued, but I support it because I know how important it would be for a number of people. If nothing else, it would also be interesting to see whether it thrived or crashed and burned in acrimony. AFAIK though, nothing has ever been done to start one. Stop reading this and start a petition, get supporters, send it to the admins and stay on them until they create one. If you won't do that much then continuing to complain becomes as banal as you find the galleries. There are so many aspects to this issue. Most of them have been mentioned here, and multiple other threads. There's "laziness," the difficulty of conforming clothing, the complexity of dynamic clothing, posing/lighting/composition... "is hard," the merchants, etc., etc... Some of them are more valid, IMO, than others. Most merchants are in business to make money. If they have any notion of bequeathing some personal aesthetic heritage to the community, that's probably secondary. It's also not like places such as PoserWorld don't have a large variety of non-titillating clothing available. You'd probably be surprised to find out what some people find titillating though. I'd wager a large number majority of nun's habits wind up in very non-church-like settings. I also doubt that the "if you build it, they will come" dictum is really applicable here. A flood of frilly frocks and Docker pants probably won't significantly alter the balance of content in the galleries. I'll bet that the Poser community is easily more diverse (in terms of skill and motivation) than that of any other 3D application. The price of admission in those therms is simply too high for Max, Maya, or even Anim8tor. You just can't hope to accomplish anything in those applications without a fairly substantial investment in time and effort that many people don't want to make. Poser OTOH is easy to learn and difficult to master. You have people here who learn the basics and are content with that. For them, Poser may be a video game or a toy but they are happy with their "boring" little pictures. Others use Poser as a serious, even a professional tool and strive every day to learn new things and push their skills to the limit. There's nothing in that hasn't been said dozens of times. What I find so unfortunate is the complete schism between two points of view. It's like getting a Southern baptist and a Unitarian Universalist to agree on the in-errancy of the Bible. To the "serious" group, the "hackers" are lazy, unmotivated, stolid troglodytes. To the "Poser as video game" crowd, the "artistes" are insufferable, whining art snobs. I doubt either side will ever understand or be reconciled to the other. Still, we all love and use the same software and we all share the same site. If these periodic ventings by either group are the price we have to pay for that, I suppose they're worthwhile.

I like critique. I don't understand why anyone would post an image if it's not their best work or are at the very least looking for some guidance or constructive criticism. If they receive some it is because someone saw something in their work and liked it. It should never be taken as an insult. The more you know, the better you get. That applies in every aspect of life.

Nor do I understand why people of a certain shape would wear spandex in public but there you are. It takes all kinds and only some science-fiction empath could begin to understand them all. Such is life. Sometimes dignified tolerance is the best we can do.

It could be said that tolerance in some circumstances is in line with apathy and indifference. I suppose were are to remain indifferent when we could suggest options to improve an artist work?

"Sigh... old topics rehashed." College degree or not, that comment was useless and meant to insult or silence. Remember your other comment? "pride comes before the fall."

We should concentrate on the original post. aeikema was brave enough to speak out, and we have to admit that there is a lot of work being posted that is sub-standard. If we are to fix this sub-standard we need to help others without making out critique sound like "bashing" someones work. Yes, there are those whom feel they dont need the "education" from other artists and we need to seperate those who want help, and those who just want to post their works as is. If there was a critique gallery, it would have to have a lot of support from artists who have mastered (in one way or another) the software. (yes, sounds like a lot of work)