Anyone remember a time when people actually were optomistic about making things work? Seems like lately all people do is scream you can't do this or you can't do that. I am especially saddened by those artist(*coughs*) who have the basic knowledge to figure this out but criticize others instead who aspire to do new things. Drives me crazy. Yes it can be done. Of course it can. Here is an overview using a BASIC simple WIP map. I plan on doing so much more to the maps. I find it exciting. These images are a SINGLE image node pluged straight into displacement. 3 lights. Yes 16 bit node setup is better but Not bad for this single node 8 bit setup. It's about the maps, not so much the software. :) Can you tell what is morph and what is displacement? Looks like good displacement to me. Theory: Gradient airbrush strokes create banding. In images with AO or global lights we have all seen the banding rendered gradients create. This banding appears in Poser displacement. Zbrush adds too much noise that create a granite effect in Poser. It isn't Poser. It is Zbrush. I Use Photoshop CS and have no problems.Creating dispacement maps are like transparencies. There are good ones and bad ones. A good displacement map is as much work as a texture map. It isn't like bumps. PROBLEM: Dark maps don't have enough contrast to prevent gradient banding. FIX: Stop using dark maps. Make brighter/whiter maps and use lower displacement values in Poser PROBLEM: Gradient banding along edges. FIX: Faint noise set to lighten(you wouldn't want pitting) on higher contrast map will reduce banding(steps) but will be faint enough to be negligible in Poser. EVen transmaps don't look real at unrealistic zooms. PROBLEM: Jpeg compression. FIX: Why use jpegs????? Use png. Better images, less loss. Make sense? (Thanks Traveler) Zbrush: Not my choice. not for displacement anyway. Too much noise that creates artifacts, I prefer photoshop cs. You can do 16bit in it. Poser vs Studio issue(Which is better): It does currently handle dispacement better than Poser. Glad it is free. Go STudio! lol It is an excellent tool for quickly testing your displacement maps for Poser. But this crap that Poser can't do proper displacement is just ignorance amd bias. Look at it this way, a Poser6 displacement map will always be flawless in STudio, bacuse you have to ensure higher quality for Poser6 displacement. Like built in quality control. Displacement across seams issue: ummmm... well if you can do a transmap you can do a displacement map. :) The problem is people are not cleaning up thier seams. Displacement and muscles(Can you do it?): Of course you can. Just rediculous to think otherwise. Otherwise let's just alert the 3d industry that they are all wrong. But if you have all these tweeny weeny little cutlines modelled into the mesh is a pre-set pattern you are going to have a struggle. Displacement is idea on smoother default surfaces. Every human muscle config is unique depending on age, race, weight, sex and health. Commiting to specific cutlines will always hinder diversity. Also joints don't play well with diagnal cutlines. Never have. Probably never will. Polygon flow is best when parallel to joint axis. Lighting: yes it is important. Shadows are too. AO or global is nice. But like anything 3d, good lights make things better, bad lights make things worse. Final effect: Displacememnt rendering is improved when a texture is on the mesh. The texture improves the render result and reduces artifacts, especially if there is some weave or noise. This was prompted by that rediculous displacement debate in the Apollo thread about back muscles at Daz. It irked me. Insecure rubbish. Bet png displacements will appear there fast enough now. Anyway. I will have more info after I finish my displacememnt pack. So let's all try to stay creative and see things for the potential. And support each other as artists instead of tearing people down for hard work and creative goals. For those who didn't follow the thread, ignore my rant. :) Just get's so irritating. If we stopped trying whenever someone said something couldn't be done... well we wouldn't have very much today would we? But then again, I believe the world is round. Go figure. I hate naysayers. What a creativity killer. PS: This is my APolloMaximus figure.

Nice veins, Anton. I can't really tell what else you've done here, dosplacement-wise, but a good vein map is needed in any case for Apollo, it always enhances the reality, especially with the more muscular types :o) I'm not really sure what you're saying about 8-bit and 16-bit though, I guess it's something about how many layers of grey you have? Does that mean you're using a png as dosplacement map? Does poser read the transparent bits of a png correctly? This I gotta try :o) You can do so many neat things with displacements, and with the right settings I haven't encountered problems. I read recently that someone figured out how to displace inward (without displacing everything else outwards) but I never quite figured out how? Do you know that trict?

Yeah Displacement is fun. There was a lot of discussion about only 16 bit displacememnt being viable for figures. It is better but obviously not an absolute. I am using png for displacement, not for the transparency, but because it isn't as lossy as jpeg(less artifacts). PS: Apollo's UV mapping is ideal for displacement, because his UV mapping allows for the highest resolution figure maps available.

Very nice displacement effect. Looks cool! Many of the things you said are very true. It always comes down to the skill of the artist. The 8 bit vrs. 16 bit issue makes no big difference for organic models, in my experience. They have irregular patterns and there is no need to displace perfect smooth planes. The artefacts don't show much on the typical shading of organic figures. On the other hand, I have not jet be able to create a 8 bit displacement map that look good on inorganic materials on higher displacement settings, especial if the surface has a metallic shader and the displacement has big areas with gradients. For things like this, 16 bit works much better I did not have any trouble with noise in Zbrush, but I will look for that on my next project. Maybe I am missing something. Stefan

With difficult displacement projects I would suggest this as a tip.

Start with a rediculously extreme displacement map and play with very subtle noise along the gradients till the stepping effect is reduced as much as possible. Really over do your map

Then reduce the displacement value to the level of displacement you want. Once the extreme level it pulled back to a lower level, the noise dimishes.

Adjusting curves or Brightness/contrast, in Photoshop, will help show where banding comes and goes at various levels.

This principle applies to so many things. Tweak in extremes. Then you know the eased off version will be flawless.

Message edited on: 07/09/2005 04:30

"I read recently that someone figured out how to displace inward (without displacing everything else outwards) but I never quite figured out how? Do you know that trict?" I think the trict (?) is to use the centre grey colour (126) as the base colour. Higher numbers towards white go outwards... lower numbers towards black go inwards.

I desaturated the image so you can see the details better. Same WIP map rendered with the 3dlight renderer. The back lines above the wiast are displacement The leg lines below the waist are modelled cutlines. Looks the same to me. One needs extra polygons. The other doesn't This is what I meant when I said displacement is better for those details you do not always see that don't justify tens of thousands of extra polygons.

Looking very cool :)

I agree Anton.. have you seen Stonemason's Deep water fishes, or Jolly Troll? Both are excellent examples of displacement using in poser. (I just wish Jolly's face didn't look like it was ground meat.) Might be a good idea when posting displacement renders, to post a version with and without for comparison.

Way to go, Anton! It's nice to see when people take the word "impossible" as motivation, not limitation.

Thanks Stewer.

What about TIF instead of png?

Anyhoo, interesting problem solving, -- transparency with nodes and displacement. It seems to me that using nodes with transparency is a great work around. I forgot where I saw it, but I saw a comparison using node transparency verses materials transparency and was surprised to see how much cleaner a node transparency map were.

btw, you know I love you and think you do kick ass stuff, but I think you are too hard a critic on those who wanted to work the displacement challenge. They had no motive to so other than to try it. They discovered, discussed, and defined the issues around displacement on a figure in Poser/Studio so their working of the problem was part of the creative problem solving process. I'm glad so many people took it on. They raised interest in it, and were bold enough to "think out loud" on the forums.

I know it's a "thinking out loud" process and not a final say. I know what brainstorming is when I see it. Views were stated, were challenged, then reversed themselves during the process. It's the scientific method at work. All good stuff and the participants should be applauded and not embrassed or ridiclued, imho. If everyone was afraid of failure and frustration, there would be no innovations, no online discussions working the problem. It would be a sad day, imho. Many clever innovations for Poser were born on the forums such as Injections. I was having a great time. I would get involved myself 'cause this looks VERY cool to me, but since I use the pro pack on older Mac machine, P5, P6, or Studio are not options for me (unless a money tree suddenly sprouted in my backyard or money fell from the sky, LOL!).

Anyhoo, I think I spotted some added detail via displacement on the hands, upper back, side of the ribcage, and veins added in the groin and arms. Did I get them all? :)

More preview pictures! Good work! :D

bB

Message edited on: 07/09/2005 10:39

Message edited on: 07/09/2005 10:43

TIF would be a good idea, as long as you're not planning to distribute it. But TIF's are huge compared to png, so to make smaller downloadable files, png is better :o)

I've seen pict used for Poser too, but that's a more MAC format. It's also larger than png? bB <-- who is thinking about converting all her textures to png now. ;)

Well, displacements look great as long as there's no mirror...

The cup is either half full, or half empty...

Uh? Can't you see displacements in a mirror? Hmm... That does set some limits for it's useability... Still, for 98% of all renders it will be a good solution I think.

I've never really messed with reflections or mirrors. PP can't do that. I would just post edit in a reflection. But now I'm curious about what Poser 5, 6, Studio or other render engines can do. Suppose you want to do a render of Apollo as a fountion statue. Would his displacements be in the reflection pool? bB

Poser5+ probably disables raytracing displacements because of the speed hit it causes.

Studio was set a while back to enable reflections of displacement.

Message edited on: 07/09/2005 13:20

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Displacement not shown in reflection in poser 5/6? hmmmmm why the hell isn't this stuff covered in the manuals at all? sheesh. I even emailed e-frontier and got a very vauge responce to my displacement mapping questions (though I think they are just swamped with emails,so I forgive them). I wish there was a really advanced level Poser 5/6 book that covered these things. I was reading the poser manual and saw that you can put a map at a UV corridant. I don't know if this is possible or not but if you had say a scar displacement and could pick the point to place the map you could then do a higher res displacement map and have no streching, given the "limitations" in bit of a displacement map. Justa thought. Also is it possible that a displacement map on a figure group or material would be better than a full body map? Just more thinking out of the box. so little brain power and time, so much to learn.

Studio can render Reflections of Displacement...I guess that's how you'd put it, lol. Anyway, this is Orca Design Studios' Overlords, in D|S, using the one-sided square prop as a reflective surface with the surface settings by maclean from [ here](http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=16922&highlight=reflection)

Message edited on: 07/09/2005 15:08

I've been messing around with making displacement maps in PShop and this thread is interesting! Got a couple questions on drawbacks to this technique for figures:

If, for example, you swell his forearm with displacement, then it would seem difficult to accurately pose the hand of a different figure to grab his arm, it wouldn't show up in Preview correctly and you would have to render each change to get feedback and see it, right?

If you clothe him in the cloth room, will dynamic cloth drape on him properly?

Or am I missing something?

Also, I too thank you for the tip on PNG, I did a quick save of a displacement pic and the PNG version was smaller in size than a JPG saved with high quality.

Question: Does P4 accept PNG transparencies?

"I am using png for displacement, not for the transparency, but because it isn't as lossy as jpeg(less artifacts)." byAnton
In my experience, low-quality jpg artifacts ruin transparenies which have sharp edges.

hmmm I'm not seeing displacement in that image. I think I might be going blind hahaha. Anton, thanks for posting and commenting on the subject. I was trying in that other thread, but well, it turned into a Poser vs Studio bash instead of new ideas and solutions for renders. BTW, I just found out that lightwave 7.5 does 8bit displacement. solution is to get a loader plugin that will read 16bit tiffs. which is only available at present for PC not mac. Maya and others will read 16bit and Zbrush has mirco something or other that reads really well for displacements. I guess what I'm attempting to say is that even high end applications are dealing with limitations and workarounds for displacement maps, not just poser and studio.

Qualien - displacement is a render-time effect, so things that work pre-render (like the cloth and hair rooms) won't account for it. You could perhaps use an invisible place-holder prop, depending on how exact a drape you were wanting.

It's a bit hard to see due to the fact that it's a quick 'n dirty, but it's most noticeable on the knuckles and back of the hands....and, that the displacement isn't as deep as the default Poser setting for the product, because, well, I like it better that way, LOL. This image shows the default depth of the displacement...which shows in the reflection on the knuckles and back of the hand (didn't change those)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1740708

Actually, FireFly does 32bit float displacements. The 8bit limitation right now is in the image map node. It's easy to see when you use a procedural texture for displacement (most, if not all procedurals work with 32bit floats). How to combine two 8bit images into one 16bit image in the material room has been demonstrated on various occasions, btw.

AHHHH okay now I see where the displacement is effecting.

Stewer how do you learn all this?! The poser documentation is so weak I get flustered. I know Firefly engine has a lot of untapped potential but getting the info and applying it in Poser is like pulling teeth for me.

I'm still experimenting with new ideas on this and hope there is lot's more to learn. I am confident that whatever displacement issues there are currently in Poser/Zbrush or other apps will be resolved as it becomes more common place/used. I hope so anyway. :) Qualien, displacement is not a replacement for geometry but good for details. I swelled his arms and biceps and neck with no problems. The figure must have proper joints(not jcm) and cutlines are an issue. But there is no real reason why bending should be an issue. It will just exaggerate existing issues. The thing to remember is that regardless of morph or displacement, Poser alwasy remembers where the original geometry is and bends based on that. It just needs to be a consideration to keep in mind. You really wouldn't use displacement to make Hiro into the Freak. Not really what it is mean for. But it is an great way to add muscular/vascular details.

Qualien, I think the answer is knowing when to use displacement and when not to use displacement but something else for the effect you want. I don't think using it would be a good idea to overuse a displacement to bloat up a figure, it would be best to use morphs for that. Displacement on a figure is good when you have flesh showing. For instance you want to add veins, tendions, scars, a real skin texture, or give a "cut" edge to muscles. If you have Apollo muscled out, you can use Wardrobe Wizard to custom fit clothing to him. bB

Daz team staff, No offense, especially to Michael who I like a lot, but I'd rather you avoid my threads completely. Just skip over them please. This thread is about poser and my figure. Dan and all team mods were emailed a formal request to have no interaction. Please respect my desire that we not interact and would again ask you just avoid post I make. Just mine. There are legal issues why it would be best that you respect my wishes. I apologize for having to say it out loud. But I was quite specific in my letter to Daz. I am sorry if you had not yet been informed. Nothing personal against any of you as people, just a current business issue yet unresolved. In fairness I will, of course, avoid your authored threads. Thanks.

Displacement maps can be used for SOOO many things. Example I saw recently on a tutorial page was a cylinder with a bump and texture to make a aluminum trash can, without displacement it looked to clean but with a displacement it looked scuffed and dented like a used aluminum trash can and much more real. Here is the link: http://www.mossor.org/Desktop/Tutorials/garbagecan.htm bricks etc etc. lot of stuff to rethink. I don't think that displacement maps are going to replace all morphing or geomerty tricks, but it's another tool in the bag and can really help in some situations.

That is a great example. I like that. Cool link. Another nice thing is that it can make those flat, paper thin transparent edges, on clothing, look more real

"I read recently that someone figured out how to displace inward (without displacing everything else outwards) but I never quite figured out how? Do you know that trict?"

I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge, but one thing I do know is:

Poser 5 (and I guess 6) Firefly renderer uses 0 as the baseline. ie., the mesh is not distorted at all when the displacement is zero. It will, however, be distorted "backwards" if the displacement is less tan zero.

So to create dents, you can create a white bump map with blacks dots (or whatever) on it, then in the Materials Room, plug it into a math node and subtract it from zero. Then plug that into the displacement node. Whatever is black will stay at surface level, the whiter it gets, the further it will be indented.

The above is a very simplistic explanation of how to get indentations;

Only posting this to try to help any newbies (to the Mat room) who have problems with displacement..:-)Edited to add: So if you create your displacement map with 128 as the mid point (baseline), you can get both indentation and bump by subtracting just 0.5 from the map...
Don't know how to make that into more than 256-bit tho...

Cheers,
Diolma

Message edited on: 07/09/2005 18:29

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Attached Link: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=187263

***"displacement is not a replacement for geometry but good for details. I swelled his arms and biceps and neck with no problems."*** That depends entirely on how the application can utilize those displacements. See here: 340 poly base mesh, animated and morphed using displacement maps from Zbrush to Messhiah Studio(link above).

I say that link once before. Such a cool character. yes I agree. I look forward to when displacement handling becomes more unified across apps.

Cool thread. I've just got to the stage in my ZBrush development where I'm starting to think about moving models between apps, particularly for rigging and rendering. Must admit I'd taken the 'common wisdom', that 16 vs 8 bit meant the maps would be crap in Poser, at face value. Thanks for the inspiration to try something new.

"Stewer how do you learn all this?!" Seeing the source code helped a bit. ;)

grrrrrr. hahaha. Well keep posting your information, there are few that know it, every bit helps.

Somewhat off-topic. Because they're not perfect, some post will be required but --- if you're searching for new hairs try the old "hard" ones and use Poser's grey texture maps for displacement. On a lark, I loaded like the Fem3 and Fem5 hairs with the tex as displacement, toyed with the displacement values, and ended with sone fairly nice new looks. Haven't had a chance to play with others yet... ;) If you're doing post-worked hair anyway, you may find some new guides in these. - Mark

Excellent stuff Anton. Might be worth mentioning that displacement mapping in Poser seems to be more successful when convex areas are expanded (and presumably concave areas are sunk). Expanding concave areas can sometimes lead to displacement artifacts.

This is exactly right Paul. Thanks for bringing it up. Trying to smooth/rise things like cutline are an issue which goes back to why displacement woeks better on smoother surfaces. Smoker, yeah I can see where displacement can change older stuff. It really is a fun idea.

Diolma: I was just re-reading this thread and noted a logic issue with subtracting in displacement to get a map to displace in both directions. IF the baseline is 0 then a) positive numbers would displace as normal, negative numbers according to your comments would displace in the opposite direction. A negat1ive number greater than -1 { where the number is less than 0 but more than -1, i.e., -.5) would displace in the opposite direction but by a smaller amount. The only two ways, given your insights, I could see to displae in both directions would be 1) somehow get the baseline to set to 127 so that gray values between 0-127 would invert, or 2) somehow plug in two maps - one with positive values and one with negative values. But I must also ask, is the baseline normally from 0-to-255 or from -127 to 128?

Diolma: I was just re-reading this thread and noted a logic issue with subtracting in displacement to get a map to displace in both directions. IF the baseline is 0 then a) positive numbers would displace as normal, negative numbers according to your comments would displace in the opposite direction. A negat1ive number greater than -1 { where the number is less than 0 but more than -1, i.e., -.5) would displace in the opposite direction but by a smaller amount. The only two ways, given your insights, I could see to displae in both directions would be 1) somehow get the baseline to set to 127 so that gray values between 0-127 would invert, or 2) somehow plug in two maps - one with positive values and one with negative values. But I must also ask, is the baseline normally from 0-to-255 or from -127 to 128?

Diolma: I was just re-reading this thread and noted a logic issue with subtracting in displacement to get a map to displace in both directions. IF the baseline is 0 then a) positive numbers would displace as normal, negative numbers according to your comments would displace in the opposite direction. A negat1ive number greater than -1 { where the number is less than 0 but more than -1, i.e., -.5) would displace in the opposite direction but by a smaller amount. The only two ways, given your insights, I could see to displae in both directions would be 1) somehow get the baseline to set to 127 so that gray values between 0-127 would invert, or 2) somehow plug in two maps - one with positive values and one with negative values. But I must also ask, is the baseline normally from 0-to-255 or from -127 to 128?

Diolma: I was just re-reading this thread and noted a logic issue with subtracting in displacement to get a map to displace in both directions. IF the baseline is 0 then positive numbers would displace as normal, negative numbers according to your comments would displace in the opposite direction. A negat1ive number greater than -1 { where the number is less than 0 but more than -1, i.e., -.5) would displace in the opposite direction but by a smaller amount. The only two ways, given your insights, I could see to displae in both directions would be 1) somehow get the baseline to set to 127 so that gray values between 0-127 would invert, or 2) somehow plug in two maps - one with positive values and one with negative values. But I must also ask, is the baseline normally from 0-to-255 or from -127 to 128?

Smoker: As far as I can work it out, when you plug a grey-scale bitmap output into a math node, the values get converted into floating point numbers on the way, in the range 0-1. By subtracting 0.5 from this, then plugging it into the displacement, you are moving the baseline halfway "up" the scale (or moving the map halfway in the other direction...). It seems that Firefly can accept these floating point numbers and do the "right" thing with them. I'm afraid I don't know the exact details (Probably someone with a lot more knowledge than I've got can explain..), but it seems to work:-) Cheers, Diolma