Ok, Rendo has just swallowed lengthy posts on this subject twice. Evil, evil Rendo! So I'll try to make it short. :p I just recently downloaded the V5I demo and have been enjoying playing around with it. However one thing I can't seem to figure out is volumetric clouds. They're on the feature list at E-On software, and I've tried some of the built-in atmospheres as well as creating my own, making sure to have volumetric turned on in the cloud material and volumetric atmosphere on as well. But the clouds are still totally flat. If you fly up to them they have no dimension and so are not truly volumetric. This is similar to Terragen's clouds, where they are shaded to look 3D, but are not truly 3D at all. Here are some examples of real volumetric clouds from MojoWorld, World Construction Set and Terragen 2 Alpha: http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?MojoWorld+iWyFqWIJc+1120482489 http://www.3dnature.com/images/CastleIsland.gif http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=832146 Can Vue create stuff like that? I know you can use object primitives with volumetric materials to get a true 3D volumetric effect, but I can't seem to produce very convincing results this way. Even if I could, the thought of creating an entire sky of these by hand is not particularly appealing, although perhaps Ecosystems could be used to good effect there. Anyway, all help and advice is greatly appreciated. Vue 5 Infinite is a fantastic product, but without good atmospheres and clouds I'm not sure it is worth the cost to me. - Oshyan

..use a photo as a billboard! I haven't had much luck with volumetric clouds either but I'm no whizz at that, alas. metablobs, theoretically, should be the best answer, but...look like total crap.

A photo on a billboard doesn't solve the issue at all. If one would like to be able to see a cloud from any angle as they move their camera around, even through or above it, a 2D photo is even worse than the regular cloud system. ;) It's partly a matter of quality, yes, but the major thing is I'm confused about "volumetric clouds" being on their feature list, yet not being able to figure out how to use/create them.

Not only that but, despite workarounds such as you describe in another post, billboards just don't emit proper lighting and matching lighting, atmospherics, etc. with a billboard is difficult. Even worse, you can't change the lighting on anything in the photo, so you have to either tailor your scene for a photo you have, or try to find the perfect photo to match your scene. Thanks for the reply though, any input is appreciated. :)

• Oshyan

Message edited on: 07/19/2005 21:44

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2285681

Thanks Wabe. I believe I had seen that thread though, and as I said the method of using spheres (or other primitives) with volumetric materials is less than ideal. The results are better than the standard clouds, but still not particularly realistic, and the question of whether they react properly to light is also a big one. Besides, this hardly qualifies as "Volumetric Clouds" as listed on E-On's feature list (separate from volumetric materials I should add). So I ask again, is E-On basically using the word "volumetric" in some other sense than I understand it, or is there really a way to make volumetric clouds using the actual cloud system? - Oshyan

Looks like the word "volumetric" is very much connected to the word "clouds" for you. No question that Vue does have volumetric materials. A question of experience to make good clouds out of it. The method Vue is using with primitives has some pros as well. You can control position of each single cloud much better and even can animate it. And if you combine it with cloud layers you can get some very good results i think. I agree, cloud presets could be better for unexperienced users but that is like in all programs, they have stronger and weaker points. Otherwise, how boring would it be when personal experience does not count anymore. And how boring when all use the same program. Differences and challenges make life spicy.

as wabe mentioned and that thread shows its more then possible, however i do agree with javajones that the "volumetric cloud" feature in vue is one of its clear weaknesses, hopefully its also one of the things that will get a big overhaul in the next vue incarnation.

To give just a clear answer to a clear question:

Oshyan asked: "Here are some examples of real volumetric clouds from MojoWorld, World Construction Set and Terragen 2 Alpha:
http://www.3d(etc.)
Can Vue create stuff like that? "

Straight answer: No! Vue cannot create "real volumetric clouds" like the apps you mentioned above!
Not in the current version.

-Absinthe

Wabe, the reason I'm focusing on the cloud aspect of "volumetric" is because E-On lists it specifically as a feature. From the V5I feature list: "Volumetric clouds, lights, materials (visible rays, with optional dust)." If they had just said "volumetric materials", I would not be surprised that in order to get volumetric clouds you have to use object primitives with volumeteric materials. But in fact this "volumetreic clouds" feature does exist in the V5I package. You can turn the cloud material in a cloud plane/object into a volumetric materal, and many of the preset volumetric atmospheres have this setup, so it seems clear this is an intended use. It's just that there's nothing volumetric about the results as far as I can tell. So unless anyone has information to the contrary, I consider the feature list misleading. And that is a bit disappointing, especially considering V5I is otherwise so promising. Not everyone will find this particular feature important, but to me it is vital to realism, so it's just about a deal breaker. I'll continue to play with the demo as E-On kindly allows a generous 60 day test period, but I'm afraid that, unless I discover some hidden and dramatic realism booster for atmospheres, I'll have to hope instead that TG2's instancing system lives up to the power, flexibility and ease of use of Vue's, or that V6I with true volumetric clouds and improved atmospherics comes out by the time TG2 is released in 2006. Thanks for the info everyone. :) - Oshyan

I think i asked it already. What is "clouds" for you? An infinite layer only? Weird. When i drove through the Black Forest this morning i saw one cloud sitting right on top of some hills - of course an infinite layer as well. You are completely related to one singular way of interpretation is my feeling. But i will not follow that up anymore, you make your experiences with the demo and decide what you do. Stay with Terragen probably.

It's not really to do with how "infinite" it is, but more with how easy it is to generate a whole sky full of realistic, varied, volumetric clouds. It just so happens that cloudscapes in real life are, for all intents and purposes, often "infinite". Certainly there are times when you only want one or a few clouds, but in my area at least these will be the exception to the rule. We get a lot of thick, low-level cloud here, and so naturally I'm wanting to duplicate my environment as part of my enjoyment of natural landscape rendering. Now producing this effect may be possible with ecosystems, and I'm certainly trying to go that route, but to me "clouds" are a feature, especially since E-On lists them as such. So what I mean and expect is that there be a cloud function that allows a quick and easy setup for volumetric clouds, much like the existing cloud system works, except for true volumetric clouds (such as are apparently possible using object primitives). Their current approach is akin to listing "thousands of cloud types" as a feature, but then requiring you to manually setup a 2d infinite plane and configure a texture from scratch to act as your clouds. Are you glad you don't have to do that every time you want some clouds? That there are presets for many good cloud types (albeit none truly volumetric)? Well, none of that is currently available for volumetric clouds. And considering that, in reality, all clouds are "volumetric" (have volume), that seems like a pretty big oversight. If they're going to advertise the feature but rely on some complicated, trial and error method of getting the results they advertised, they ought instead to at least give us a little automated help or simply not list "volumetric clouds". Put in a "volumetric cloud" object, just like the regular cloud plane objects they have now. Make it out of an ecosystem and an object primitive, I don't care as long as it works, but having to set it up manually means the "feature", as listed on Vue's feature list, isn't there. It doesn't seem like this would be a difficult thing to provide. Your comments re: Terragen make me feel like you think I'm just here to bash Vue. I most certainly am not! Frankly that comment makes me feel a bit unwelcome, and I don't think that's fair. If I've read into what you said though, I apologize. I've been working with landscape rendering software for over 10 years now, starting with VistaPro, then moving on to Bryce, World Builder, and now have been with Terragen for some time. I stuck with Terragen so long because of the great atmospherics, despite its other major shortcomings (which I fully recognize). So far IMO no other application has been able to best TG's realistic atmospherics, despite its limitations in terms of a single cloud layer and limited cloud types. But I wish that weren't the case! I would love to be able to work in an application with so much more flexibility and power like Vue. But I have my particular needs for a landscape renderer, and unfortunately it seems like Vue does not fully address them. I consider myself a pretty fair, even-handed person, and I think my long experience with multiple landscape renderers contributes to that. I am interested in landscape rendering as an art form and hobby in itself, not ultimately in any particular application. In fact I have been a tester for several other landscape rendering applications, including MojoWorld. The fact that one of them has fulfilled my needs recently more than others is only the fault of the developers. If I could decide what features each dev put in, believe me I would! So please don't assign a bias to me just because my current choice of programs is different than yours. If anything, my needs as an artist and hobbyist create any biases I have. And I certainly hope you wouldn't hold those kinds of preferences against anyone. I'm here because I am hoping that another program may finally be able to meet those needs, and I'm asking fair and unbiased questions trying to make a reasonable and full evaluation. If I had no real interest in Vue, I wouldn't be here. - Oshyan

What you don't have in your calculation is the history of forums like this here. How many attacks do you think are lying behind us? How many discussions that start very similar to the one you started and end in fights? Only yesterday i think i recieved an email that someone has answered to a thread and when i wanted to read that it was gone. Deleted by the moderator probably (only a guess). Maybe with this background you understand why we (or I in this case) didn't reacted too enthusiastic to your question. BTW, almost nobody of the regular people here has answered to that thread if you look at it. The start to show on one hand what Infinite can't do and to tell in the same context that e-on is not telling the truth in their advertising had all incrediences for a fight. As i said above. BTW, you are very welcome with any question about how to use Infinite - to say that absolutely clearly. Now i go on to other things and to bed, Walther

The reason I hadn't chimed in up until this point was that the question has already been answered, Vue can't do true puffy volumetric clouds, since Java Jones didn't want to use the sphere/metablob idea (as it is not truly a viable solution most of the time anyway) he was looking for other suggestions as to how to do it. The problem comes down to the fact that the type of clouds a lot of us are looking for (big puffy clouds that have volume to them) aren't truly able to be made in Vue at this point (or at least I have yet to see an example of one). I speak from experience trying to manipulate volumetric materials and metablobs trying to get the right clouds and resorting to a mix of alpha planes and metablobs to get something halfway decent (see my most recent gallery image). This has been a feature HEAVILY requested by most Vue users on the e-on forums. It's not a case of looking for an easy solution, it's that given the resources and features/limitations of the program, there isn't a good way to do realistic puffy clouds in Vue. I'm not saying you can't do "volumetric clouds" using spheres and blobs, but honestly, they look nothing like true puffy realistic clouds, no matter what the experience level is, I have yet to see a single render showing this method that is even half way convincing without squinting your eyes. If anybody has some real examples to show of this method actually looking like real clouds then go ahead and show it (preferably next to a photograph of real puffy clouds), but I haven't seen it yet. Nuf said, not trying to start a fight, just got tired of seeing Java Jones get insulted left and right because the effect he's looking for isn't available and he's looking to other programs for a solution.

Thanks nano, you said all very well and I agree 100%. Although my first message did mention Vue's feature list, etc. this was primarily to show why I was looking for the feature that I was asking about. Clearly if Vue did not say "volumetric clouds" in their feature list, I should not expect it. But since they do, and I can't figure out how to use them, as was the case, I figured a Vue forum would be the best place to ask. ;) I also apologize if this question has been answered before. My original messages, that were then swallowed by Rendo (because I tend to write long posts, the PHP session times out I guess), actually included a bit of history about my interest in Vue and that might have helped understand my position better. Long story short I have only been seriously interested in Vue since version 5, and particularly Infinite. So I have only been spending much time here in the Vue forums on Rendo since V5's release, and more so with V5I. If I missed an earlier thread about this very subject, that would be why. I did do a search before posting, but Rendo's forum search feature is not the best IMO and it didn't yield any meaningful results in the first few pages. In any case it's good to get a definitive answer about this, even though it's not the one I was looking for. I will continue to hope for better clouds in the Vue 6 engine, hopefully next year, and meanwhile I hope some Python or materials genius comes up with a way to make a decent approximation with the existing systems. :) - Oshyan

Coming from a Lightwave animation background, I've come to expect certain visual results from volumetrics ala hypervoxels. There is a free pluging for Lightwave called OGO_Taiki that does some impressive volumetric clouds
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~pq1a-ogs/taiki_e.html
Check out some of the animations on that page. But render times are abysmal.

Good volumetric clouds take an incredible time to render and if you're in to animation like myself, that can be very very costly. Cheats and short cuts are always welcome even if it means compositing layers from another program in After Effects.

The reason I've temporarily suspended tests on clouds is because I can not establish a good working base from which to work from. Lighting and camera motion/angle/height can make ok clouds rather useless. Since a project involves planes, I need volumes of believable clouds relatively close to the aircraft.

I don't doubt that there are shader geniuses out there that can work with what Vue has and can make it work, but out of the box environmental/volumetric formed clouds are not there.

Message edited on: 07/21/2005 22:13

Yeah, I'm familiar with Taiki. Frankly volumetric clouds are something of a passion of mine, since - as I said before - I consider them vital to realism. Unfortunately I'm not a Lightwave user, and don't have the money nor free time to invest in purchasing and getting to know it just to use it as a landscape renderer. Although I have no doubt if I did so it would be great at it (I've seen some fantastic results come out of it). As far as other volumetric solutions, there are of course many. One I find especiallyinteresting, due in part to the particular approach used and the apparently high quality results, combined with the claim of being faster than other methods, is implemented in POVRay. Take a look: http://www.oyonale.com/ressources/english/sources13.htm Render times seem to vary between reasonable and outlandish, although they're quoted for a machine far below top-end today. So something like this might be worth experimenting with, either in Lightwave or, ideally, in Vue (could this be done through Python?). I'll keep an eye out for the shader geniuses making magic out of Vue's volumetrics. I'd love to see it, so come on guys! - Oshyan