gagnonrich

The suggestion is for a "NO Post work" sub-category under the Poser Gallery, so views would still be the same.

And you are correct; it is much easier to use a soft brush with opacity to create volumetric lighting, then to create gels in a 3d program. But, when somebody achieves that effect, using a 3d program, it is spectacular. It is cutting edge technique that's making its way into TV & Film.

Now, Poser doesn't possess the same flexibility and power of Maya, but it does dominate the human form. It is not an easy task rigging a Human mesh from scratch in Maya, so Poser is a valuable asset, limited as it may be.

Look, you said it yourself; you think there is nothing to a Pure 3d render, because of software limitations. However, you also acknowledged that you have seen "some". And I bet knowing the limitations and yet seeing it achieved is, pretty cool. Check out FS's texturing, now he's pushing the boundaries of No Post work. And really, how naive is it comparing Poser to an Etch & Sketch.... I'll bet 99% of the people that use Poser don't even know what a Blinn is. It's like someone not utilizing layers in PS. An app can be basic or complex, it just depends on the knowledge of the user, just ask Face-off.

Message edited on: 07/29/2005 14:08

Message edited on: 07/29/2005 14:09

its naive to think you are going to somehow be held in higher regard by gallery viewers because your renders are straight from poser with no after adjustment. if you are not able to compete for hits with others who "finish" their images where poser left off. then perhaps you need to re-examine your artisitic approach as a whole

Excuse me Wolf, I do fine on my own, and it's you that are saying " a higher regard" not me. Please re-read my prior postings, I hate to repeat myself over and over. I do not want this to get into a flamming match, when it doesn't need to be. End of story...... We really need to end this thread.

I see some interesting suggestions here. Yes, this topic has come up time and time again, but never to my recall as a suggestion for a genre (sub-category). The thing to consider here is that genres are applied to all the Topics - so we'd end up with not only Poser>No Postwork but also 2D>No postwork, which might not make a lot of sense. I also really like Steven(svdl)'s idea about having multiple selections available for one post. The only potential problem I could see with that would be people picking all the sections in an effort to get more views. So we might have to limit the selection to, say, 3 main topics and 3 genres within that. I have brought up both of these suggestions to the Admin team and I am hopeful that both will be implemented (although obviously the multiple selections idea would be a more major change, so would take a lot longer.) Thanks to everyone participating in this discussion for keeping it pretty much respectful. It's good to exchange opinions without feeling you have to "convert" others to your viewpoint :-) Karen Poser Mod

The majority of the work in such a change would be converting the records for the existing images. The mechanism for multiple applications and multiple genres is in place: just use the same technique as for the product credits. That way it's also easy to limit the amount of applications and/or genres.

I don't do postwork not because am a purist, I have no need to do it. I think that is a good idea to hace a category for no-postwork, it can be useful for newbies and for people to discover what can be done with Poser without any need of postwork. There no need for moderators to check if are or are not postworked, some artist maybe cheat, but most of them will not. A postworked image can be nice, can be beautiful, but always looks artificial!

I like the checkmark idea, that sounds like it would be an improvement over the present system. But I very much doubt it would eliminate the need for weeding out the images you want to see since as much as they overlap now and ppl have trouble choosing a category to put them in, how is that going to be different with 3 catgories and 3 genres? Doesn't that multiply the chances for mistakes in classifying them? As svdl pointed out, a lot of images fit into a lot of them at the same time and although more options are always preferred, I doubt that's going to solve dricci's problem since you're always going to have to do some weeding out of images no matter what, like it or not. because no system of is perfect

> That's funny. gagnonrich mentions efficiency. For me, efficiency in lighting means setting up the lights in the 3D app based on physical correctness. I'm probably better off showing an example to explain what I mean. Part of the problem in the "before" image is doing it on a laptop that looks brighter when I created the image, but actually producing an overly dark image when viewed elsewhere. Trying to correct the color in Poser either on the laptop or the desktop would be a laborious task. It took a minute in Photoshop to do it. It took hours to set up the lights for the original render. I'm by no means claiming it's easier to get the 3D lighting effect in Photoshop. All I'm saying is that it's easier to make global corrections in a 2D program once the lighting is pretty well set in Poser. That was only my second ever fully rendered Poser image, so I'm not saying it's great or anything, but the lighting is reasonably well set up and certainly looks better after punching up the dynamics with a Photoshop curve. The same improvement could not have readily been done in Poser because adding and changing lights markedly change the image and, at least with P5, those changes are hard to predict until the image is rendered. If you look at my gallery, you'll see that 90%-95% of the final image is Poser. I'm using color corrections, cleaning up a few bend problems, and adding the occasional rare effect. The bulk of the final product is the Poser render. That's partly due to a lack of time and partly an overall satisfaction with what came out of Poser. > Ever tried to do a realistic motion blur in a painting app? Actually, I did in the Ogre image using Painter which allows moving the mouse in whatever fashion wanted which the program then follows in a trailed blur trace as opposed to a single direction that is limited in most programs. Anything more complex than that, I'd stick with 3D as you suggest. > Paraphrase of post #50: It's really not worth spending too much time fixing a quirk with a 2D app when Poser can do it for you. True! I've got limited time and will use whichever technique works best and fastest. > But I also have great respect for artist that can use Poser (or any other 3D app) to create images that are outstanding by themselves, and where postwork would only detract from the quality. Me too! It's why I follow the forum. I'll avidly read anything by Mec4D to see what new techniques she's using with the Firefly render engine. Whatever Poser can do better is one less thing I need to correct in a 2D application. > you think there is nothing to a Pure 3d render, because of software limitations. I wouldn't go that far. After all, I've acknowledged that the work I've done is mostly a Poser render. I'll take Poser as far as I can and it then becomes a matter of a little postwork to get closer to my final vision. With more time, I'd do more postwork. At the moment, I'm letting Poser do the bulk of the job for me. I'm using Poser because it lets me get a more realistic image than I can do with my painting skills. What I trade is a greater amount of time to lay out the image (posing figures etc.) for less time to produce a realistic render (vs. painting all the final details). It always seems odd to hear an artist declare that they're stopping right there. They've got their render and will do no more because it has to be a pure Poser image. I've yet to run across a Poser render or photo that cannot be made to look a little better after a quick Photoshop curve to bring out the best in the image. If Ansel Adams had Photoshop, I'm sure he would have used it. He didn't, so he made his images better in a darkroom. Ansel wasn't a photography purist where the image from the camera had to be the final absolute product that he displayed. It just seems to be an arbitrary point to freeze one's final vision to whatever finally comes out of Poser. To me, Poser is a tool that I'll use to the best of my ability and then I'll do a little more in another program. To one degree, I can understand why somebody wants a Poser only gallery because it shows what can be done entirely in the program. At the same time, it's hard to understand why one's creative work should entirely stop right there because it's saying what can be done with a tool instead of what could be done with more tools. By the way, click the Etch-a-Sketch link if you don't think impressive art can be done with it. Some talented individuals are making the toy do artwork that looks like a good pen & ink drawing. The difference is that it takes ten times longer doing it on the Etch-a-Sketch simply for the esoteric joy of showing that's how it was done. That's the only comparison I'm making, of putting more time and effort into pushing a tool to it's limit over using a more appropriate tool for the job. It's good to push those limits occasionally as a learning experience, but anybody who always does something the hard way simply to do it the hard way, even when they know of an easier alternative, is probably being obsessive. I'm not saying anybody here is guilty of that. I would use "obsessive" to describe the Etch-a-Sketch artists that are spending 70 hours on a sketch using an artistic tool that only has an up and down dial to work with. As I mentioned, I'm not against a No-Postwork category (nor am I for it). If it's implemented, it would be interesting to get some site statistics to learn how often it's visited.

It's funny you mention etch & sketch, I just trace lines from a photo using Painter 7, then add the line properties, Chalk, Pen, etc.... takes next to no time at all and looks the same if not better, because you have more control of the image. As a sketch artist, I would be happy for increased production and upset for purity.... Same thing for illustrators, its really easy to abuse the Trace Command in Ill or Freehand, I know, I do it all the time, but I have dead lines....

The global illumination of an image will depend on the monitor and the monitor settings. What you see in your monitor is not necessarly the same as other person view in his monitor. You can correct in Photoshop the illumination to look good in your monitor, but it can look not good in another monitor. Some images look better in one monitor and others in other monitor. And if you print the image is another nightmare!

I did the pose in Poser, then traced and reworked it in Freehand.... Should this be allowed in the poser Gallery?

The majority of the work was done in Freehand. I'd say that the 2D gallery would be the most appropriate.

I totally agree with you SVDL. My example was taken to an extreme. However, some Images in the poser galleries do have 20+ PS Layers. And that would be a double standard if I wanted to post my image in the poser gallery. Anyway, I off to grab a Friday Pizza and spend time with the family... You all have a great weekend. Peace Y'all

There are some images that you don't know to which gallery belongs or don't fit in any category, so put them in any place you wish, nobody will kill you.

Folks, the discuss is nice... but I leave it now. I need to apply some layers in Photoshop to a render in Poser6 with a background in Bryce, two scanned graphics and a photo, besides a hand-painted wall... ...and I dont know where the hell I would post it... (joke. I insist. I believe we dont need this cathegory) And well... for cathegories lovers probably you need more tags for your work... take a view at deviantART, you have hundred of options. All my work is cathegorized as (breath): deviation>digital art>3-Dimensional Art>characters>rendered of course I know it now... but the first time I spent more time to find the F***** cathegory than the one I spent in draw it... You love difficult things I propose only two cathegories: 2D and 3D Or better: ART and NO ART (heh)

(or we can CREATE The Holy Inquisition of PURE ARTWORK: -PURE 2D (Hey!! No a damned touch of PSP!!!) -PURE 3D STUDIO MAX (Have you said 'Poser', dude?? Let these DAZ models far away from me!!!) -PURE AMAPI 3D (the world is my oyster) ... ) :D ... really sick. You cant take in mind that people non-artist that watch artwork arent interested in if IS 100% PURE X-SOFTWARE/MEDIUM ... they are interested in if THEY LIKE IT OR NOT

I suppose the strangest thing about this discussion (but strange doesn't make it surprising; when you've seen one platypus, you've seen them all) is how determined the nay-sayers are to put words in the mouths of others. I didn't hear anyone cite "purity" as the reason for a No Postwork category, and most of the denigration of others' work came from the postworkers, sneering at the Poser folks. I don't see any sign that any other gallery claim is policed, so why raise that bugaboo when it wasn't proposed in the first place? For me, there are a handful of perfectly good reasons for having a No-Postwork category. First and foremost, there is the fact that 33% of the 9000 "New Releases" are tagged "Poser." Since there are about 60 categories, that's a bit like walking into a Woolworths where 1/3 of the merchandise is in a department called "Stuff." Big help. Personally, I would welcome a way to filter out the eternally adolescent repetitions of Vickie naked this and that with melons, but that's another story. Ironically, most of those are no more likely to have postwork than is bathroom graffitti, so a policed "No postwork" requirement would leave me stuck with more of them. But you know, nobody said anything about "policing" the categories except to respond to the no-votes' false charges. My guess is, the bathroom book cliches will end up in the mainstream Poser category, to get more "sharing." One reason I don't go to the galleries is that I don't have the time or energy to slog through 3000 "New releases," 12 at a time, to find the rare interesting image. I appreciate it that Target is organized so that I can find what I'm looking for, and even when I'm just browsing, I can skip women's lingerie and the gun counter. The second good reason is that for all the high-toned carrying on about art (9,000 new works of art a day?), there should be a place where we can see what our tools are capable of. Why not? Poser 6 has a bunch of new tools that I'd like to see in action, used by someone who has mastered them. That is what I go to the galleries hoping to see. I appreciate SVDL's comment on fixing your Poser renders without postwork. It's not a question of purity but of efficiency and skill. Why give beginners the impression that a project can't be finished in Poser when the reality is that the limitation is the artist's skill, not the tool? A marble sculpture with polymer on the gouges and a nose reattached with epoxy may be good art, but it's mediocre craft. As for all the ridiculous logic chopping about what constitutes "postwork": it's not an issue requiring that much thought. Of course we can't settle all the nuances. So what? It's not like we're giving prizes or sending the impure to camps. The category is arbitrary and self-monitoring. Someone posts an excited boob with realistic beads of sweat, and someone comments "How did you do the sweat?" If you don't care how they did the sweat, fine, move on to the latest bondage harness cliche. Personally, I'd be more interested in the technique, having seen more than enough wet fruit. Either the answer is credible, or it isn't. If the artist lied, the viewers react accordingly. "Postwork" means adjustments to the render. If you found a way to make a background photo blend seamlessly into your render, great; that's not postwork, any more than using a great texture would be. If you popped the contrast in Photoshop, that's postwork. If people want to rail at you because you added a caption balloon or resized the image of converted it from TIF to JPG, let 'em. This is not the quest for the Aryan genome, folks. M

'This gallery is primarily for images rendered within Poser itself. Images of Poser figures rendered in other applications are still welcome, but what's the challenge in that? See how well you can do using its basic rendering tools!' Straight from the horses' mouth (the Poser gallery header), requesting what I would interpret as pretty much pure Poser works. As it says, it's a challenge :) BTW, I don't postwork as I'm poo at it! :)

Ok, I am gonna weigh in on this one. Straight out of the box Poser images are not usually very pretty unless the user has an incredible amount of talent and patience (I know one of these). But I see images in the Poser Hot 20 that are so postworked as to be almost totally unrecognizable as a Poser work. THOSE are the ones that piss me off. Ok...someone uses an action from PS? I do this myself...but if it doesn't alter the image other than the lighting, who the HELL is to say that isn't nearly pure Poser work? We need to know where to draw the line is all. And if you use another proggie to render your image, or enhance it in any way, that is NOT Poser!!!!

I agree with Avalonne. For images in the Poser gallery, the majority of the work should have been done in Poser. I have seen magnificent paintworks in the Poser Hot 20. Magnifient works of art, but not Poser art. Wrong gallery. But quite a few artists set up a scene in Poser, render in Bryce or Vue, and then paint in clothes and/or hair. What gallery - under the current system - would be appropriate? Some artists combine several Poser renders in Photoshop or PSP to achieve the final image. What gallery? My own works - most of them are set up in Poser and then rendered in Vue. Sometimes a few touchups in Photoshop, fixing a bad joint or a rendering glitch. Some props built in 3DS Max, then Poserized. The majority of the work has been done in Poser and Vue, so should it go to the Poser gallery or the Vue gallery? If I could mark multiple apps, I'd mark Poser and Vue. Those two together represent over 95% of the work I did on the image. Drawing the line is not easy. When does a postworked Poser render stop being a Poser image and start being a 2D image? I can't say. Is a Poser render with painted hair and added lens flares and volumetric effects still a Poser image? Is a Poser scene rendered in Bryce still a Poser image? We need a system to categorize. The sheer amount of images uploaded everyday requires a system. But I think we need a better system than we have right now.

I have seen magnificent paintworks in the Poser Hot 20. Magnifient works of art, but not Poser art. Wrong gallery. I do a great deal of postwork, using Poser only as a base, and I post in the Poser gallery. (I don't consider it a "challenge" to do work 100% in Poser, I consider it a waste of my time, because I can do so much better by fixing stuff and painting things in after the fact, BUT that's just my own perspective.) I post in the Poser gallery because I won't post my work in the "Mixed Media" gallery. I don't do mixed media. I do digital, which is ONE media (yes, I come from a traditional art background, and I know what "mixed media" means ;-). Mixed Media refers to the actual MEDIUM, not the "program", not the "rendering engine", not the "style". Digital is digital, and that's what I do, and that's all there is to that. (I don't care what the blurb is on the gallery, something that is 100% digital is NOT "mixed media".) If people are pissed off by my digital paintings, well, sorry about that, but perhaps they should find something more meaningful over which to take offence... ;-P I think we need a better system than we have right now. I agree absolutely 100% percent. I've thought this for many years. bonni

Oh, finish this bored thread. Do you want a "ONLY POSER WITHOUT POSTWORK" cathegory? Please, mods, open it!! And go away there all you with your purism :P Im interested in draw pics. The important matter for me is the results: I think on a pic in my mind, not on "I want no postwork in this pic". Sometimes I need postwork, sometimes not. To cathegorize my artwork is a detail out of importance. I dont understand such passion in people to cathegorize things until madness... really SnowSultan is very near with cathegories that some people would need RIDIKKULO !! :D