I completed a search for Poser Artist here in the forums, and it seems the consensus is that I should not bother to buy it. However, my needs are somewhat different to the other artists that asked this same question. I need a program for artistic reference, in which I would use the figures as an alternative to live models. According to Curious Labs, Poser Artist is perfect for this, but I'd like to hear form those who have used the product as opposed to the company selling it! I would need, of course, to rotate and pose a figure (I sculpt mythological and pagan figures from clay), and I would also need to manipulate the proportions of the figures from minor to some quite major adjustments.

Is it worth it, if one is not looking to create high-res characters or scene renders? I have also heard software from DAZ might be useful, which I am downloading right now.

DAZ Studio might be enough for what you want. You can get Victoria 3, Michael 3, and Aiko 3 free at DAZ, as well. You would probably have to buy the morph packs for them to get the changes you want. With Poser Artist, you should have enough characters to work with. You would probably need add on morphs to get the changes that you want with that, too. There are plenty of free add ons for the Poser 4Studio male and female, and there are several free standalone figures that will work in PoserArtist or DAZ Studio.

Thanks for the response. I've just started playing with DAZ, and it looks like it might just be perfect for my needs, once I get all this morph business figured out and so on, and test the male character out.

Attached Link: http://www.sixus1.com/

You're welcome. Check http://www.sixus1.com/ as one source for alternate characters, if you need them. There are freebies at both poserforums.com and project-human.com

Grimtwist, you and I are in the minority of folks whose interest in Poser is actually in line with what it's best at! I use it for reference too. It's a godsend for that. Be advised though, Poser (and presumably DAZ Studio) are only going to give you problematic reference. As far as I can tell Poser solves two problems almost perfectly: Perspective Proportion You have the advantage of being able to always go back and choose another perspective, which is great, and you'll always get accurate figure proportions. What Poser won't do is give you anatomically correct musculature. It also won't give you anatomically precise joints. There are lots of little musculature problems with every figure I've ever used, and they're exacerbated by posing (the more extreme the pose the worse the problem). If you know your anatomy though, and you want to save time on proportion and perspective, then I heartily endorse Poser (Poser 4 is good enough for your purposes btw). I suggest you look into how much computer power you'll need to be happy running Poser. I've yet to have a system that ran it fast enough, which is frustrating.

In regard to using Poser as a replacement for live human models, what you really need to do is use live human models as a reference to fix the problems that poorly-jointed, poorly-designed Poser models cause, particularly in the bending of the shoulders, elbows, knees, hips, hands, etc. Some new models, e.g. Apollo Max, are better designed than older models (Daz V1/V2 and Posette/Dork). Poser can save alot of time with a good model that has sensible joint bending, but check the result against an actual human, to avoid the telltale "Poser look".

Hi

Having been playing with Michael yesterday, I see what you all mean. First, his height is stretched to approx 9 heads, which throws everything out whack to start with. Muscles are too elongated, and quite often not precisely where they should be, and joint movements are a nightmare. Still, this will definitely help with perspective and "at a glance" references once I fix his bung height and width. Coupled with my photo library, I should be able to get by. I'll stick with DAZ for now, because it's free, and I can export to Z Brush, which I've coome to love.

But I'd really like to now why the makers don't invest their time and resources into a more precise replica of the ideal human form! Wouldn't that make everyone happy?

I think a) it's a tall order and b) there isn't enough money in it. If it was otherwise it would've been done already. I think a high degree of simulation would be necessary to accurately model a human. Bones float a bit. Tendons deform skin. Muscles contract and expand and deform skin. Think of all that goes on in just the ribcage in breathing. Anatomists still don't agree on how many muscles there are in the human face! Poser is old tech in a lot of ways. The whole bump mapping/normal mapping thing is still light years away from being properly realized in Poser & Poser content. This suggests to me the obvious, that Poser is a niche app mostly used by hobbyists. Spending a few grand might get you something better. :)

So you can see how far Poser has advanced, here is the Poser 1 man and woman. I used them in a couple of images I've posted in the gallery here, too. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=12263&Start=1&Artist=wyrwulf&ByArtist=Yes http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=12525&Start=1&Artist=wyrwulf&ByArtist=Yes

I'm not much of an artist, but throwing in my two cents anyhow. I've used Poser a couple of times to set up a difficult pose/angle I was trying to draw. The actual drawing was done freehand. I'd actually suggest Poser5 or above, as adding a little clothing -- poorly conforming or not -- makes it easier to figure in the rough locations of hems and so forth. I believe the cloth engine could also generate the rough flow of drapery (drapery being one of my betnoirs!) And I definately agree with the caveats expressed so elegantly above. Don't try this unless you already have a decent grasp of anatomy (preferably have some life-drawing classes behind you as well). Not only do Poser characters fail to simulate the proper flow of musculature or the shifting landmarks of bone, but many of the pre-made poses are anatomically ridiculous; reversed arms, 190' twists, and a failure to conserve balance, follow an action line, or introduce a proper contraposto. One thing not noted above is that the basic lighting is also possible to find via Poser. Actually, in a recent drawing I set up an off-camera Mike strictly as a shadow-caster; I needed to see how a looming shadow fell across the scene.

Yeah excellent point nomuse, about lighting and shadow.

edit: that's also a good point about more recent Poser releases having more and better clothing. In my experience clothing is generally much harder to draw from memory than human anatomy. (or should I say "render" from memory, since we are talking to a sculptor?)

Message edited on: 08/19/2005 16:14

"Coupled with my photo library, I should be able to get by." That's exactly my take on the matter. I have tens (hundreds maybe) of thousands of reference images on my hard drive. When needed I can browse through them and get some clues to fill in the gaps. I think faces are a different story; ref images come to the fore here.

But of course the same caveats are there for clothing. Poser clothing either has no organic folds, or the folds are "built-in" to the mesh and only look right in a limited range of poses. Even dynamic does not escape, as the realities of polycount make it fold more like heavy canvas (and the idea of bias-cut fabric really can't be approximated in Poser terms -- heck, starched creases can't be done in Poser!) Add to this the problems of conforming -- even when there is a "good" conform (aka nothing poking out) the compromises to make this happen warp the fabric further from reality. Plus clothing does not influence the underlying figure (the way every ordinary bra does, for instance). Still...you got the silhoette, you've got the hemlines, you've got the shading and the cast shadows and even a semblance of drapery. It's not a bad thing to have. Heck, it's close enough for someone attempting a web comic! (As I am).

Okay, it's been two days since playing with poser figures (actually, I'm using DAZ), and it seems the main issue is the truly dreadful shoulder area, and the rather low abs the rest I can live with. After a lot of tweaking, I can get Michael down to a fairly realistic human height! But other than that, I can still get a good view of various positions I may need and so on. I'll just keep referencing my photos. I have survived with out 3d in the past, after all ;)