Not to get anyone's dander up, but as I'm looking through the Halloween contest entries, I just had to make a comment. Postwork definitely makes a difference in the poser renders. Although I have seen various renders, with no postwork, that hit the mark and stand on their own...most of them are just far too raw looking for my taste. I think that's rather sad, considering that Poser's rendering engine has gone through so many improvements. I'm curious as to what makes the difference so profound...is it color correction, lighting, focus perhaps? Maybe its because postwork softens out a lot of harsh lines and dulls contrast... I'm curious about other opinions, so I put it to the poser forum...

Postwork definitely makes a difference in the poser renders. Yes. And the better the postwork, the better the final image. I'm curious as to what makes the difference so profound...is it color correction, lighting, focus perhaps? Maybe its because postwork softens out a lot of harsh lines and dulls contrast... It's all of those things, and postwork can add elements that Poser just really can't do well. SOME Poser hair is okay, but postworked hair just has so many more possibilities, as an example, and the same applied to clothing. When I do postwork, I always do a fair bit of color correction and contrast correction, even if I don't paint in a lot of stuff. I also fix joints, tweak expressions, etc. Many of the changes are subtle, when but when compared to the "raw" render, it makes a big difference. I should, of course, note that I don't really usually take the time in Poser to set up the scene perfectly, because I know that I AM going to composite and paint in Photoshop. bonni

"but postworked hair just has so many more possibilities, as an example, and the same applied to clothing."

Yeah, I definitely agree about hair and clothes. Addy's work here is wonderful, and there are some wonderful entries in the contest where artists have painted the clothes. I really want to learn to do that. Even dynamic clothing can't compare to some of the hand painted clothing out there.

Message edited on: 10/14/2005 22:53

It is like painters vs. photographers. Just two different mediums.

Postwork is a medium of it's own. For those with the talent, ability and desire, postwork is a rewarding artform using 3D.

Traditional 3D renders are more akin to photographers, who choreorgraph and wirk with pure image capturing. There are those with very strong 3D understanding who dazzle with pure, clear imagery with no postwrk too.

Neither is better. Just different.

However, you can't rotate postwork and recapture from a different angle. I like to postwork from time to time. My only personal objection to postwork is that it shouldn't be ever used to advertise 3D software with no internal painting tool. It misleads the consumer.

Message edited on: 10/14/2005 22:56

Postwork... I prefer "Prework". Also alot of the postwork does not match, A detailed background with a washed out Vicky with false bad shadow and unreal lighting does nothing for me. I hate bad painted hair and clothes, ... it looks painted on :)
a very can paint nice hair and clothes.
Just my opion, to each his own.

"However, you can't rotate postwork and recapture from a different angle. I like to postwork from time to time. My only personal objection to postwork is that it shouldn't be ever used to advertise 3D software with no internal painting tool. It misleads the consumer."

I agree with Anton.

Being into the animation aspect of 3D, I use the word "postwork" a little different than most Poser users. To me, postwork is just 'polishing' a render, or perhaps compositing things together. The way I see it, postwork doesn't mean using 3D renders as a simple template for extensive hand painting; that's something different in my view. Message edited on: 10/14/2005 23:22

Half of my postwork is putting all the layers together to get the original image. I render all different layers, with cothes and hair, without clothes and hair, no background, with background, I render many of the props in different layers as to how the shadows fall on other parts, and so on. Saving everything to a format with an alfa channel. Second part would be fixing the joints and normal post that most do. Those that still render in apps like P4 that don't have smoothing will have more work.

Also alot of the postwork does not match, A detailed background with a washed out Vicky with false bad shadow and unreal lighting does nothing for me. I hate bad painted hair and clothes, ... it looks painted on So what you're saying is that badly done postwork is badly done. Wow. Deep. ;-P bonni

I think postwork is just a part of the rendering. I think using Photoshop, compositing, adjusting, painting, etc is all part of the method of achieving the results you want. I think the artist should use whatever they want to use.

Contests on the other hand is a horse of another color, because contest may be measuring how well you use a 'Particular' program to produce your results. It gives all the entries the 'same' tools, and permits artists with to compete on a more level playing field.

Using other programs, Photoshop, Vue, Bryce, Maya, etc makes the image a 'Mixed Media' render. This contest catagory permits artists use 'any' programs, techniques that they can afford and they can compete against other artists on a more level playing field.

The rules of contests are determine by what the person running the contest wants to measure.

Message edited on: 10/15/2005 04:21

Just realised the entries are up, some great images there.
As for the post work thing I always use anything thats avaiable to me to get the desired result (Or try and get it:) unless the rules state otherwise in a competition type thing. I suppose I'm becoming more of a mixed media artist than staying pure to any one package.

I don't really do much with the renders that I make other than give them away as "tubes" for others to use. However, when I do get the desire to actually do something, since I suck at poser, I tend to just render a single isolated figure with my favourite premade lights and then do all of the rest in Paint Shop Pro. Maybe in time I'll know enough about Poser to do most of it inside the program and then just touch up in PSP instead of doing 99% of the work in there.

Like Acadia, I dont know enough about Poser to do much there. I'm just posing my figures then exporting them to PSP9. I'v always been an artist who works in many mediums, pencil will always be my forte, and I work well with a mouse for just that reason, it's an extension of my hand and my mind. So post work in PSP9 is more like 90% of all my work. I marvel at works that are done completely in Poser and finish up looking fantastic, I pine for the day I'll be even half that accomplished in Poser.

I have joined the "pre-work" camp. The more I play in Poser, the more I can squeeze out of the FireFly engine. However, a little pre-work can go a long way. With the right textures applied, and with enough Mat Room tweaking, you can get some really fantastic renders. I personally do not see a problem with post-work at all. I know there are people who scream and cry that post-worked images are somehow unpure, but if done right, make the image look incredible, instead of merely fantastic ;) The way I see it, it is art. There is no "correct" way to make art. Just as some people may like classical music, some might like rock, and some might like hip hop, some will use post-work, some will do pre-work, and some will use paint on a canvas. Art is one of the few pure things left in the world. It doesn't matter what you create, or how you create it. The most beautiful thing about it is that, no matter what, as long as you enjoy your work, art has served its purpose. I will never be a Picasso to anyone but myself, but when I get done with weeks worth of tweaking a V3 model, I look back, and know that I gave all of my effort to something that I love. Anyway, that's my two cents. Thanks for listening, lol!

So what you're saying is that badly done postwork is badly done. Wow. Deep exactly... even deeper. ;)

"I agree with Anton. Being into the animation aspect of 3D, I use the word "postwork" a little different than most Poser users. To me, postwork is just 'polishing' a render, or perhaps compositing things together. The way I see it, postwork doesn't mean using 3D renders as a simple template for extensive hand painting; that's something different in my view." I have a similar veiw rendering a bare scene and painting on the hair,clothing &foliage is "digital painting" over a template. however making a global adjustment the brightness/contrast of a rendered image in photoshopCS or the same to an animation clip in after effects is what i consider post Work however many of the "purist" are opposed to even doing that.

I sometimes think that the difference between those who shun postwork and those that use it is one of technical versus creative. Sticking to one medium seems to be more of a creative technical challenge than solely an effort to create art. The challenge is pushing the medium to its limits to create something good. A purist is more interested in excelling in their medium of choice than producing the best image. The two goals aren't exclusive, but the need to stay wholly in one medium exceeds the need to produce the best possible image. A person can learn a lot about thier medium of choice by focusing on it to the exclusion of everything else. Artists using postwork are simply doing whatever they can to complete their vision and don't care about the medium. Each medium is a tool to express their art. It becomes a mix of using each tool to the best of their abilities in each and swapping them when a different one is better for the final artistic effect they want. There's no right or wrong, only what makes the artist happy. From a pure artistic standpoint, the more flexible artist will create the better artistic image given that all other capabilities are equal. A Poser purist is standing by the final image and won't go any further. Somebody willing to continue working on that image, by using other programs, can usually improve it. Photography is a good analogy, but even the best photographers, such as Ansel Adams, did postwork (in a darkroom versus software that didn't exist back then) to improve the dynamic range of his photos. The best book I've found on image editing, "Professional Photoshop" by Dan Margulis, uses stock photo libraries to show before and after images and, in every instance improved on the professional photo.

"it shouldn't be ever used to advertise 3D software with no internal painting tool. It misleads the consumer." That has always bothered me too. When I started using Poser, it was on version 4, and I didn't really know a lot about the work that goes into a lot of the really good renders. I've been plugged in to the community for a few years now, and we all have seen some specific renders. It pissed me off that Poser 5 used that image of the girl with the windblown hair and the turtleneck sweater. Know what I am talking about? I believe its in Daz's gallery in their "Best of". #1 its Vicky, which most newbies wouldn't recognize, so they'll think its a standard model. #2- everything is painted. I thought that was incredibly misleading, considering that they couldn't even advertise with their own merchandise. And it's right on the back of the Poser 5 box! I love the program, but I thought that was so dishonest... gagnonrich- I love your post. I like how you don't really create this schism throughout the community by separating the "purists" from the "postworkers". There is a lot to be said by making the most that you can out of one program. I was looking on the market place the other day and spotted all the python scripts that face off has written. Since most pople use photoshop to fix contrast and realism issues, his scripts could probably make a lot of that unneccessary. I think that purists and postworkers alike should give each other more credit, as their goals are completely different. But in most cases, I feel that postworked images prove to be more aesthetically pleasing.

"Neither is better. Just different." There you go. Anton hit the nail on the head. I don't postwork a lot of my images because I like to see what I can do with Poser. I would never have learned half the stuff I can do with ease if I thought "No prob, I'll fix it in Photoshop". That said, postwork is fine and dandy if that's what it takes to achieve the image in your head. To discount or disallow it is akin to throwing away half the colours in your paintbox, or only allowing yourself to paint with one type of brush. I'll happily use postwork if the image can't be achieved by Poser alone. There are some amazing images created by a combination of 3D renders and postwork. A viewer or client doesn't usually care how the image was created.

Addendum: A lot of Poser users (IMO) lack a basic understanding of lighting and how to use it. I'm emphatically not holding my pictures as great examples of good lighting, although it is something I take a lot of time and trouble with. I'm fortunate enough to have some very good and honest friends who will provide good critique on my images and give me food for thought on how to improve them "in camera". Some of the most effective images I have seen here were created by very skilled artists using Poser alone. No bought figures, hair, clothes, textures or sets, either. Just stock Poser stuff. The trick - I honestly believe - is having the artistic vision to make the image. To use a music analogy: I have been fortunate enough to collect a few very good guitars and a reasonable amount of other kit (amps, effects and so forth) to help me create my music. But - and here's the clincher - all the guitars in the world wouldn't help me a damn if I couldn't play a note. A lot of my friends are fond of saying "Tone is in the fingers" and I believe they are correct. A truly great guitarist can pick up any old plank and make it sing. Me? I'm working on it. :)

... there's just one simple thing that worries me in this discussion ...

We are forgetting the origins and the purpose of "Poser"

Poser is a tool for artists (a digital manequin)

its not intended as a "sole" render or artist tool,

The community pushed its boundaries in many ways to the point that some people can almost entirely do a complete art scene with it, as we have seen,

(but you still need third parties software to do your textures, not to mention the models themselves, I doubt that "Vicky" or even "jessie" where modeled inside Poser)

So ... for me to postwork and advertise Poser with postworked images on its box its no problem (I've always knew its a tool to help you achieve the final image, even the name "Poser" tells me so ! an ingredient for cooking watever you want, art or not,

so unless it says in small letters "100% Poser render", like some DAZ Studio promos do, I don't get too carried away by a packaging advertising image, unless it says "100% Poser engine render" and I know its fake >_<

So in closing,

I see no harm in postwork in an age where even a tooth paste brand uses retouched extra bright teeth to advertise their product, almost every image we see in a magazine is retouched, thats how publicity works ...

(thats how good "Photoshop" is LOL)

so lets not be naive and pretend that we believe 100% blind in publicity ...

one dosn't buy a product for its beautiful pictures on the box, thats art intentionally made to attract your interest, even the price tag is aiming for your cash ...

Deep inside we all know (i hope), that we first need to do some research about the product to determine if it's a worthy purchase thats what the demos are for!

that's my very humble personal opinion

yours,

warpo

"to postwork and advertise Poser with postworked images on its box its no problem" People should definitely do the reseach before buying, but I am going to add one thing: I don't think its honest to show postwork when you are advertising a new rendering engine. That was my biggest problem with the Poser 5 box. If you are advertising a new rendering engine, it is not right to show a postworked image, because any problem with the render has been fixed in postwork! The artist probably did a million little changes in that render to make it what it was. Like any pro-postwork artist would do. And this particular image is, without a doubt, mostly postwork.

quote: "I don't think its honest to show postwork when you are advertising a new rendering engine"

... humm .... now ... thinking about it again the art on the Poser box i'snt that good, as a matter of fact I've seen tons of better less postworked artwork that really depends almost solely on the Poser render engine...

But that is a matter of personal taste.

My point is that a purchase decission should not be made by judging the artwork on a sales packaging box.

Thats publicity = advertising = thin models advertising your weight loss program, perfect postworked white teeth smiles on your tooth paste package, a guy who is a gym slave selling vitamins...

To get real, publicity is not honest most of the time and we know it!

(saddly but true, its the consumer's job to research and if posible try the demos, specially for an expensive 3D software application)

I dont know how you see it, but for me the box artwork is just "makeup"

What really drove me to buy Poser is the awesome artwork that you guys post all over the web using Poser as one of its ingredients !!! postworked or not!

now thats really cool !!!

... and people like Dr. Geep, Narcisus, Faceoff, Catharina Harders, Kozaburo, Blackhearted, Anton and a ton more ! (too many to mention here) that trully showcase Poser's capabilities, alone or with other software...

in the end Poser is way too cool, the box artwork pales in comparison to what Poser is really capable of, and yet its still just a tool on your artist toolbox!

Dont worry about the box artwork on a sales package,

It's the artists who use the software who really should be our inspiration!

and yes, postwork is also cool, its everywere to conceal reality flaws and help the artist and even dishonest publicity to equally comunicate an idea

Our call to believe it or not

yours,

warpo o_~

I think the package art should show what that particular program can do. The purchaser should be able to expect that the art on the box could be done without purchasing Photoshop or other programs.

The package art should say, 'this is what can be done with THIS program', not show you what can be done if you invest in two or three 'other' programs.

The manual or inside ads can say that other progams like Photoshop, PSP, Painter, Bryce, Vue, Max, Maya, can be used. Then show examples of mixing programs.

"My point is that a purchase decission should not be made by judging the artwork on a sales packaging box."

Unfortantly thats exactly how purchases are made. Believe it or not, there are people who never heard of 'Renderosity', or 'DAZ' and never saw 'Poser' images, and the Poser box is their first experience. Try to remember what it is like to be a TOTAL novice.

Message edited on: 10/16/2005 04:05

... yes i agree ... saddly there still "naive" people around I guess LOL
Bad consumers attracted by bad advertising LOL

well anyway, back to render and postwork some !! yay !!! o_~

yours.

warpo

P. D. Novice alert:

never judge the book by its cover.

quote: "Believe it or not, there are people who never heard of 'Renderosity', or 'DAZ' and never saw 'Poser' images"

WOW !! O_O

An informed purchase is the way to go even for a newbie,

try the demos

Warpo, You are assuming someone has heard about Poser in the past, and is simply purchasing it, after comparing it to the competition. As for novice users, you forget people who see the box on a store shelf, or someone who purchases it as a gift for someone else. I actually recieved Poser from someone else when I started. I saw the box, and was wowed by the image. So was I a moron for believing that the product was capable of doing that sort of imagery "out of the box?" Under your terms, it would appear so. However, I don't see purchasing Poser in the same light as purchasing a car. When I first tried Poser, I had no idea there was a demo available, and even if I did, it was purchased for me, by someone who no clue about CGI at all. You cannot assume every person has the same level of knowledge as you. If it weren't for the old Curious Labs website, I would never have even heard of Renderosity. Ah well, enough ranting. Maybe now you see the point. If not, ah well, I tried.

I actually found out about Poser through my dad's computer magazines. It just looked like a fun program, and I had no former experience with any other 3D program. I was just a Photoshopper. Once I got Poser, a search for tutorials on eyebrows (a newbie would understand) led me to Renderosity. Well, it was so cool! I kept hoping I would be able to do images just like the ones shown here. But guess what. No one used posette. But most people don't know that right away. And V3? What is V3?! Its all the people in here talk about. I felt like everyone in the forum was talking in some strange code. I finally asked about V3, which led me to the DAZ site. It took me a lot longer to figure out that the really good renders all used postwork elements for polish. I think a lot of other people here know what that process is like. "An informed purchase is the way to go even for a newbie" True, but sometimes its hard to find places for information. You have to know where to go, and the internet is so big now you get really lost looking for stuff if you aren't internet saavy. And not everyone has access to demos. Although a lot of people are on DSL or fast connections now, most home computers still run 56k. It would take DAYS to download some of the demos out there, and Poser (especially with academic discounts) is a cheap enough investment to just buy on speculation. To destro75 and Philywebrider- Thanks for bringing up those other points. You guys know what its like for most people just starting out.

Warpo, you're so harsh :P Be nicer to the newbies!! In broad strokes, I know where you are coming from, and most of us probably agree with you, but be more realistic about it. Otherwise, you are right, and consumers should definitely be more careful about buying new products. As for me, I will stay pray for a world where advertisers are more honest. The Firefly Renderer was perfectly capable of standing on its own, and there should be more people working at Curious Labs who have real faith in their product. That they would stoop to using postworked images shows a true lack of faith as far as I am concerned.

its not that complicated! ... sorry but its just comon sense and apply to everything you purchase, or intend to.

TRY before you spend your hard earned money... no demo? then search google or watever, a second opinion is always welcome.

ASK if you dont know
ect. ect.

and most important of all

NEVER ever believe blindly on publicity or advertising
(tv adds, package design ect.)

those are prone to fall into "HYPE"

Trust me I wish all products deliver what they promise on their ad campaigns,

but my humble experience tells me that the real world is much different

even videogames are plaged by it
you expect something judging by the art on the cover and get something else

take it for what it is

just a humble advise on how to judge the capabilities of a 3D software application

it just worried me to see that this day still people blindly spend their money on something just because the cover art looks good :/

sigh

quote:

"Warpo, you're so harsh :P

Be nicer to the newbies!!"

LOL sorry o_~ no offence to the novice,
I'm a novice myself in many ways, (too many hehe)

I didn't mention them first

By the way, Poser is way cool !!! as well as almost all other software,

_< just wanted let that clear, I'm just another Poser "Runtime" addict!

yours,

warpo