LOL @ Richard (Yes he does!)

Quote - M3 and V3 are free, so there's no cost in getting them. They're also much better supported than Don and Judy. To get them to work well though, you'll need to get the face and body morph packages at Daz too. Each package is about $30.

They also have a package that has the head and body morphs for both figures in it. I think it's $30.00.

I was actually waiting around for Venus. I just rarely use males. And well...ever since Aiko 3 & Hiro came out I've basically chucked V3 & M3 out the window. :P I'll probably brush the dust off of V3 & M3 from time to time. The more the merrier. ^^

While I would love to dive into Apollo, I cannot justify the cost. I know you do not wish to hear this, but you need to look realistically at the target audience. Even at 50% he is out of my price range. I've said it before, He's beautiful but I cannot afford him even with WW.

Yeah, I hope Anton is still peeking in here. I totally think you'd see many times more sales for a female figure period. :) Heck, Anton, I'd sign on to produce content for Venus from the get-go, given an advance copy.

V3 is now a bit more useful to me now that I have Eszter, the add on for V3 by DigiCalimero from Polymage.com. M3 I still don't care for but I do like M2 a bit but there is a limited amount of stuff for him or what is available is so expensive for what I consider (for some of it) lower quality compared to the stuff that M3 is getting made for him. His shoulders are very nice and his over all muscularity is nice too but his face is kinda strange in a few areas. Texture packs are OK but not as nice as M3's packs. Luckily I can use most of the texture packs for M3 on David and Hiro so it's not a total waste. Hence Apollo is the main man but he does need some further support from the merchants to bring up over all sales. Just wish that Anton was more for moving forward with Athena or Venus to give Apollo a 'mate'. I think that it's more balanced and will probably drive more to buy Apollo and his stuff. As much as I loved Aiko when Hiro came about I went crazy and bought up a bunch more stuff for Aiko afterwards and started using her more often because she had a counterpart finally. Richard ;-)~

Im not really sure why people make so much of Apollo being fat and dumpy. Most of us dont like any figure in there default state, which is why we spend money on character/morph packs. Apollo is easy to make tall and skinny using his included morphs and ADS scaling and his face has enough morphs to get rid of the chubby look and as Poser and Daz both have magnets of one form or another its easy enough to make his face and body any shape desired. Attached imaged used Apollos included morphs for the body and face with one magnet to square his face, it only took a couple of minutes to turn him skinny and there are already add on morph packs that will do it for you in one click. I dont prefer one dress up dolly over another, they all have good and bad points but it doesnt take much to make them into something we find attractive or interesting to look at.

The Renderosity mods will have to forgive me this, but I do question the motive and timing behind this little announcement, plus question the little "biting the hand that feeds you" routine. Personal opinion mind you, but the Wardrobe wizard support is what garnered the support for this figure in the first place. Many of the people in this market are lower income and thus are not ABLE to shell out the $50 for a single figure, much less $100. Goes back to knowing your market.

ok, i'm going to post this here too: i'm the one who brought up wardrobe wizard. not anton. i interpretted:

It's hard to explain, but for all the time they take, figures only cover their own costs. You make your living on the support stuff. There is interest, of course, but figures need bery broad merchaant interest to have a healthy and long life. I'm just not sure Apollo has enough long term merchnat support to justify Venus. You really need LOTS of deifferent merchants involved. Therein lies the delema.

to mean that the conversion tools might then be a problem for him. i may have been wrong. anton's posts regarding apollo's wardrobe wizard support have been nothing but positive in the past.

Very true! Excited actually!! :-)

I love Wardrobe Wizard. I advertise it on my site. I have never said otherwise. (natoli) :) I'll call PhilC to make sure we're good. I think the Daz thread on Venus is a perfect example why the current climate is hostile and unreceptive. That thread is an abomination.. I appreciate the words of reason from the few that actually base their comments on fact. Horrific, simply horrific.

I have emailed Daz asking thier post be removed for vioating thier own TOS. It is my hope that speculative assumptions/statements made by others will not damage my business relationships with PhilC, other merchants, and other sites. I would urge some to post more resposibily and resist the urge to post speculation as fact for all to read. I am not refering to anyone in particular here, but would hope people might consider the impact their opinions have to those who often won't look any deeper to check for fact or context. I am deeply appreciative to PhilC, FaceOff, Renderosity, Poser Pros, all supporters, and most improtantly RDNA for their support of Apollo and my interests. Statements made by others suggesting lack of gratitude, anger, or malice, should be ignored and kept in the conext of the user making the post. It is my sincere wish that this dark side of the forums will eventually be addressed by thier hosts and that Daz will remove the very damaging thread containing very innappropriate personality assesments. I apologize if this particular post sounds cold. It isn't meant that way. But with over 2173 views of the Daz thread, and it's contents, the damage is likely devasting to any potential merchants I hoped to encourage. This statement may be reposted elsewhere, meaning Daz. Sincerely, Anton PS: Thanks for your vocal interest in Venus and APollo, of course. :) It is appreciated.

IMO, these forums have to sides, a good one, means you get support and help and can discuss various items, and the bad one, you can post opinions without having some real knowledge behind. I think people who liked a new figure do what I did, spending some Dollars on it and I think, most of them are happy with it. The other ones, who don't own the figure, they are claiming an whatever they want, the price, the outlook,... I have to state, when V3 wasn't for free, I'm not sure if I would have purchased her. Same is valid for M3. I find that it becomes a common behaviour for a lot of people to think negative. That's not the way to make the future nice. If someone wants to criticise something, it should be done in a way that there are facts behind, and possibly also solutions. Who takes the part of those users that are simply satisfied with their purchase? For me it was a bad news when Anton stated that he will no longer plan to release the female counterpart to Apollo :((

"For me it was a bad news when Anton stated that he will no longer plan to release the female counterpart to Apollo :((" I think many people feel the same way, myself included. I didn't see so much damaging stuff in the daz thread, but more speculation as to why Anton thinks it is a failure, and what could have backfired, and what would improve the situation. Course I tend to skip over malicious stuff, because argueing with people in forums is counterproductive for all invloved.

I can speak for myself without translators who find more colorful and creative words and recollections of my posts. People can speculate, or discuss my personality, in email not forums. But Daz is most definately not the place for it regardless. There is no reason why that thread can't be removed. none. Nor is there any purpose some of the personal jabs serve against my personality serve. None. I have to read new people saying "I have heard". Well why does noone silence the people spreading crap? Why? What posts are they talking about? Something half-remembered from 3 years ago? I don't care what time, country, forum, community, religion, or party you belong to. In no setting should a member be discussed, critiqued, and disected is such a utterly tasteless manner. I'm not going to discuss this anymore. If daz lets it sit forever for all to read, that says something. And I'll find another way to remove it.

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=28352&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=76

The Daz forums TOS is ala 'rosity so there wasn't much maliciousness vented there though a mod did peek her head in and warn folks about the TOS and personal stuff. The Daz thread did take interesting turns about ex boyfriends named Brian and Cole, heartbreak, and Capsces morphs. http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=28352&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=76

"hough a mod did peek her head in and warn folks about the TOS and personal stuff." and missed all the personal attacks.. funny that.. I counted 4 right off. mostly made by our old friend.. RK ;)

"Re: P6 figures versus M3/V3 by byAnton on 11/27/05 17:36 A lot have people have bought him. But I think with so many conversion type things out there, new content is taking a hit. I'm still watching things." In all fairness it is this statement that seemed to imply that clothing converters in general(Philc,MarkDC etc.) were a deterent to new clothing content. and frankly on some level this is very true many wont buy new stuff when they can convert thier favorite OLD stuff insteaed which is s bit if a dilemma for some clothing merchants when it comes to buying apollo at his "regular" price just for content dev. I think many took the "safe route" and continued to crank out stuff for the unimess injection clones and perhaps releases the WW .DAT files as an after thought for those who might own ,WW and Apollo and may me interested in thier clothing set enough buy it and hope for a successful conversion to apollo. So honestly i see no reason for you to qualify that assertion as it is a realty of advancing technology I ,for example am a rosity merchant in a small nich market of custom BVH motion files for Mike and vicky Well that 3% of poser users who Do animation are like to have bought puppet master and poser physics. for ultra realistic character motion simulationsand trnfer of this motion from figure to figure so where dose that leave me?? ' Ill just have to adapt my marketing strategy to the changing technology i suppose

Wolf I am so done with you period. I can't fathom in what reality you were in when you thought "Hey I'll go post this at Daz!" I'm suprise you don't choke on the word "fairness".

Since Daz posts aren't numbered, Ilkk list in order. What purpose do these serve? Can someone explain these to me?

Wolf: Straight from the creator
he is very Dissapointed at the Weak support for apollo from merchants so he wont be making another figure.

---

Fasle: I said Apollo will be my one and only independant human figure. I never said I wasn't making anymore figures.

Ratscloset: It is par for the course with Anton. It seems if things are not on his schedule it is bad

Fictional: Based on nothing factual or historical. With well over 100 products I see no trends to support this fiction

Randym77:He kind of implies that Wardrobe Wizard is what's killing him.

Speculative: I never implied anything of the sort or that anything was being killed.

AlterEgo:And then Anton, unfortunately, often seems to be in the middle of some sort of controversy.

OutofContext: The controversy only ever over of unsolicited comments and judgements like this one.

AlterEgo:One other thing that got me was Anton's complaining about negative reviews of Apollo.

OT: Inappropriate and OT translation.

Ratscloset: It did not seem like Anton did anything to get others to have products for the launch.

Finction : Based on nothing printed or spoken. Blantantly false thoug in fairness Ratscloset wasn't emailed.

AlterEgo:Anton is bemoaning the lack of merchant support. When you think of it, which merchants would be most likely to support AM?! RDNA merchants. You're talking a closed, exclusive staff.

OT :Anton is not bemoaning.

AlterEgo:Anton cooperated with PhilC concerning Wardrobe Wizard, now he complains it's cutting away support? Does Anton really know what's going on?!

Inflamatory and OT: Yes I did. No I am not. You bet I do. Like crystal.

kremesch73:I guess what I'm really trying to say is that it may be Anton's own negativity towards his own product that may not be helping the sales as he whished. As opposed to outer circumstances such as ww or whatever else one can pin the blame on.

False: And thus another urban legend is born. What negativity? I'm not genative nor suggested anything other than making a business decision based on facts.

AlterEgo: Anton can't answer any of the posts here, no matter what type of posts they are. (We won't even get into the reason why....)

Innappropriate and OT: Why is nothing done about this person?

Calypso:Tell that to Anton... he's the one that said AM has bad support that has pretty much led to him not doing Venus...

Innappropriate and OT and out of context: you guys remember her?

AlmightyQUEST:Personally, not having been around for this whole falling out with DAZ or whatever that seems to (fromt he perspective of someone not around for this) unfairly make some people baised against him, he really doesn't come across as quite as negative about the product as people seem to be implying.
That and, not knowing him personally, I can't really say anything about his character.

---

Hamless but I want to mention it. Perfect Example: So after 2300 views, I can count on new peple are still hearing stuff? From who? From threads and posts like these. Someone like AlmightyQUEST doesn't encounter me or anything I have said but then rather other people's constant OT personality profiles.
I would love to know specifically what is is I supposedly did. I can always smell a "Anton hurt my feelings once" a mile away. But can someone explain what these posts serve to accomplish besides to remind people of a myths that were never true from the day they happened.

Message edited on: 11/30/2005 08:55

"Why is nothing done about this person?" it's Ron Knights. ever try and stamp out an RK infestation? he's worse that cockroaches...

Just look at what you have said in this thread-

**
#28 It is hard enough to make a "non-Daz" figure catch on. Merchants don't seem interested and his fans are too few. Sadly I must admit I Apollo will be my one and only independent human figure.

#31 There isn't enough interest, for whatever reasons, to warrant the time and resources to do another similar figure...I just won't be doing Venus.

#34 I think with so many conversion type things out there, new content is taking a hit...figures only cover their own costs. You make your living on the support stuff...I'm just not sure Apollo has enough long term merchant support to justify Venus. You really need LOTS of different merchants involved. Therein lies the dilemma.
**

And you can see why someone would say
**
Anton... he's the one that said AM has bad support that has pretty much led to him not doing Venus...
**

In the Daz thread whose title is-
OT: No female counterpart for Apollo Max

and not be Inappropriate, OT, or out of context especially when that quote was actually a direct reply to someone else in the Daz thread.

Or did you mean you were the one taking it out of context? ;)

Attached Link: perspective

Calypso why are you here? Aside from a history that goes back to this thread. Tell me how many more years to I have to look forward to your comments?

I am a Poser user. This is a Poser forum. If you really want to discuss past history meet me at the RFI.

what is RFI?

Attached Link: http://rfi.elgeneralisimo.com/forums/

RFI= Radio Free Ironbear One of the few remaining places that hasn't turned into a Disney wannabe.

QUOTE: The Daz thread did take interesting turns about ex boyfriends named Brian and Cole, heartbreak, and Capsces morphs. UNQUOTE Yea, that was my doing. Not really on track from what was the intial question about a counterpart for Apollo but it was more back in a direction other than slamming or speculation. I hope, Anton, that my comments didn't upset you. Never my intention. I hold you in the highest regard and appreciate your contributions to the community very much!! Richard ;-)~

Looks like Steve Kondris locked the DAZ thread. Still leaves it up for viewing though!

The thread is being dealt with.

wait, anton. what's the difference between "...Apollo will be my one and only independant human figure," and not making another figure? frankly, i think most people interpret "figure" to mean "human figure." are you saying you'll make non-human figures? or are you saying you'll be willing to make one for daz? just curious. why don't you just clarify what this statement means: "

34. Re: P6 figures versus M3/V3 by byAnton on 11/27/05 17:36 A lot have people have bought him. But I think with so many conversion type things out there, new content is taking a hit. I'm still watching things. It's hard to explain, but for all the time they take, figures only cover their own costs. You make your living on the support stuff. There is interest, of course, but figures need bery broad merchaant interest to have a healthy and long life. I'm just not sure Apollo has enough long term merchnat support to justify Venus. You really need LOTS of deifferent merchants involved. Therein lies the delema.

because it's merely a paraphrase to go from that to "conversion tools like ww, cc and tailor have hurt new content, and therefore merchant support necessary for a successful figure, so i'm not sure i can justify venus." just saying, "i didn't say that," probably isn't going to give people a new interpretation. i know it hasn't for me; i now don't know what you were trying to say. i think people's reactions to this have been rather extreme, though. personally, i think it would be reasonable that all these new utilities emerging on the market might have some unforeseen negative effects on current marketing practices. i myself buy more clothes because of wardrobe wizard, but it does mean that i tend to consider the nature of the item and not who it's for (excluding pc club, real deal, and proclub items). so anyone making content for apollo wouldn't get out of competing with wusumah, if others shop as i do. i didn't think of that. i could see that scaring other merchants. whatever. (*** disclaimer- again, i'm interpreting. this is not the opinion or statement of anyone not making this post. ***) as a total aside, and in only my opinion, i think this is good. it means that originality and quality will be a better way to succeed than making new versions of the same basic forms (there's a lot of stuff out there that could be duplicated with textures and bump maps on the basic catsuits). and there's far from a dearth of new clothing possibilities. and just an fyi: any beef between you and calypso, you know, i wouldn't have gotten that from her comments.

cobaltdream... HUGS ^^

"Tell me how many more years to I have to look forward to your comments?" - Anton

As many years as both of ya'll are around and dwelling in the same communities? ;]

We all know who AlteredEgo is, so you don't need an explaination of the comments, nor that persons motives. I already called him on his comments and he immediately takes mine out of Context... Called him on that too. Problem is, you can't place people on ignore there. Based on your own comments, Anton, people have come to the conclusion that you feel that WW was hurting your sales. Frankly, I saw it as a major bonus to be able to do more with the character out of the box... i.e. - "Hey, I'm looking at such and such for AM." "Well, do you have Wardrobe Wizard?" Point I'm trying to make is that such scripts and utilities actually open up more support to the figure. Makes a person more apt to buy it if they know they will not be hurting for clothing and such. BTW - I wonder how many people realize that there is AM support over at Poserworld?

"I can't fathom in what reality you were in when you thought "Hey I'll go post this at Daz!" that reality were ADULTS live and have to deal with people freely expressing thier opinions and yes speculations/gossip I'm suprise you don't choke on the word "fairness". well when one exists in a paranoid fever swamp and apparently thrives on being the worlds biggest VICTIM i suppose anything one does not like to hear, would seem unfair ;-).

Quote - Merchants don't seem interested and his fans are too few. Sadly I must admit I Apollo will be my one and only independant human figure.

:(

Quote - Course I tend to skip over malicious stuff, because argueing with people in forums is counterproductive for all invloved.

Ditto.

I fully support and encourage anyone interested in discussing my products, assuming remarks are based on fact. There are sites around for discussion or personal analysis of people's personalities if you feel you must get something of your chest. Or that you feel your personal view of someone needs to be online and discussed in a group. As I have been reminded in the past, it has no place in these forums or at Daz. I have given Daz permision and actually ask them to just delete any mention of my name pro/con on their forums. There is no need for me to be discussed there. Thanks for respecting my wishes. Product questions are always welcome. Regards, Anton

Hi Anton! I have bought AM (at introduction), along with some support products (face_off's realism kit at introduction, the Cole morphs at the occasion of the recent RDNA sale,...). I have not, however, bought clothes for him. And this is despite the fact that the Epic Clothing are (for the most part, anyway), exactly the kind of things I am looking for (things I can use to make RPG illustrations). Why is that? Beyond the steep price (the price is fair, but smaller bundles would be easier to swallow), the main reason, for me, was that they were not dynamic. As far as I can tell from the product description they are conforming only, and it is not clear if they can be made dynamic (I have read there are obstructions for some clothes, though I do not know if they apply to the Epic Clothing), or, more to the point, if I could transform them, given my rather limited capacity in that regard. Why have I found that important? Because, to me, AM represents the current pinnacle of realism, in Poser terms. Why then settle for articles which are undoubtedly nice, but not themselves the pinnacle of what I could use with my current program? I know dynamic clothing has been portrayed as not selling as well as conforming cloths (if only the number of users with P5 or P6 only is but a fraction of the whole Poser market), but I believe the best deserves the best. I fervently hope you will indeed produce a female counterpart to AM (I can only hope that I read your declaration "I said Apollo will be my one and only independent human figure. I never said I wasn't making anymore figures." (post 71) as meaning you might produce Venus, but as a cooperation). I know if you do I will buy it (as soon as I can afford it, hopefully upon release). Merci Hubert Holin

Just some ideas off the top of my head based on somethings I've seen said by you and others in this thread.

I love Apollo, but as you and others have stated, not many merchants are supporting him outside of you and others at RDNA. It's a shame too, because he is a great figure and very easy to work with. Heck, I managed to do a whole pose from head to toe from zero pose, my very first try, something I've never been able to do on a V3 or M3.

I think the reason that V3 and M3 are highly supported is because they have been around a long time. I would imagine that when they first came out that not much was available for them either, and that it took time for people to move away from the standard Poser figures like Posette and Judy.

I really like Apollo, but from a new user stand point, and please, I don't mean to upset you by saying this, but from a new user stand point Apollo is more of an advanced figure to work with only because there isn't much out there for him just yet. The new user is looking to get their feet wet. With V3 or M3, they can do that rather cheaply because the bases are free and there are hundreds of free items out there that can be used for them. Even if they don't have the body and head morphs, they can still use the character addon textures that they can find free or relatively cheap in the stores.

I do like RDNA, but they are quite a bit higher priced than any of the other Poser stores, and like it or not, cost is a factor for most of us. Some of us use poser purely as a hobby. Some of us have families with only one income, others are on reduced income due to disability. So price really plays a huge role in what people buy.

Now for some of my ideas that I've been toying with:

1. Have you considered cutting down the base Apollo package and charging less for it? You could make al-a-carte packages instead of giving so much in the initial package. Most people are looking at the price of $100.00 for the product, they aren't looking at the contents of that package.. especially newer users. They see $100.00 and go "OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If you break it to them gently by having the figure for say $30.00, and a few packages for $20.00, in time people will buy them as they can afford. It's easier to swallow spending $30.00 than $100.00.

In my opinion it's better to sell 10 Apollo Maximus packages for $30.00 each plus whatever a-la-carte packages, than to only sell 3 at $100.00.

With a lower price you get more people buying it, then there will be more of a market for other Apollo items.

1. Have you considered giving the Base Apollo to some merchants in the Poser community so that they have the figure and would be more apt to produce Apollo clothing, textures etc? I saw a merchant above state that they can't afford to buy the figure, so they can't make or sell Apollo items. Yes, you cut into your profits by giving Apollo (the very basic figure that you can), to some merchants, but you are also expanding Apollo's chances of having more support.

2. I read above that RDNA is by "invite only" to sell, and that it's hard to sell Apollo products elsewhere. Is there a way that they would allow merchants to sell just their Apollo Maximus wares through RDNA? This would encourage merchants to make products for him, and give them a reliable place to market these items too. What better place to sell Apollo items than at the site that sells Apollo himself?

Anyway, those are just some of my ideas that I had that could possibly help get Apollo onto more computers and to spark more interest in him and products for him.

I would love to see Apollo succeed and see a Venus come into being too. It makes me sad to see this figure dissed, and Anton unhappy about it all :(

Message edited on: 12/02/2005 23:10

Thanks Linda. The best way for people to help all merchants succeed is to give them moral support, even if not financially. And to consider the intentions and impact of the posts they make.