Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2557923

Why do the mods/admins allow these types of threads to be posted, or to continue once it's turned into a lynching thread?

In the copyright forum for example, I've seen merchants making complaints against fellow merchants for possible copyright infringment. There are proper channels for a merchant to take to lodge a complaint...a form to fill out. Why are they posting their complaint in a public venue? Why aren't those threads locked or deleted and the merchant told to follow the proper channels?

I also see people posting complaints about gallery postings there. Why aren't they encouraged to PM one of the moderators for that area?

Sometimes the accusations turn out to be true, other times they prove false, but eitherway the damage is done.

The other day someone posted in the Poser forum asking for some information about something involving another site. The site owner addressed the concern very early in the thread, yet the thread was allowed to continue for along time afterward and it turned into a virutal trial of the site and it's owners. The reputation of a site was damaged because of a misunderstanding that was rectified early on, but the thread allowed to continue into a lynching trial.

People are innocent until proven guilty and that same ideal should hold true here, and the moderators and admins should be doing something to deter people from making public complaints and lynching people without just cause.

Threads like that do nothing to bring the community together. Nothing at all.

Message edited on: 01/27/2006 23:51

"People are innocent until proven guilty and that same ideal should hold true here, and the moderators and admins should be doing something to deter people from making public complaints and lynching people without just cause." To say how things are run here will only bring great wrath upon One Self....but, I feel it is a "Leadership" Problem. Awaits "great wrath"

What's wrong with trying to make the community a better place?

Well for one, in the thread you linked to it's pretty much a given it's been "proven" unless you want it proven in a court of law. Two sites have already pulled his stores. I'm not quite sure why you think it should be hidden though. All kinds of criminals have their names posted in the newspaper before they've even been to court. Police blotters are a matter of public record. I think if you polled people it would be fairly split about whether it should be allowed or not. Some people need to vent, some don't. Let people vent and if you don't like it, don't continue reading those threads. (Note, I'm only referring to the issue in the linked thread not the other ones you asked about. The ones before anything have been "proven" should be handled differently.)

These threads are a common way for merchants to gain publicity. There are a few old hands in there.

Acadia, lol You ain't seen nothing. You should have seen the constant bitching before they hyper devided the forums. Turned them into a glorified lookup table. I live on a river just down stream of a good size lake. The river is straight and deep enought (about 12 feet on average). It is like totally a no wake zone. Wakes bang boats against docks and wash out yards and developed shorelines. Well, when we moved in when someone would go flying down the river in a speed boat or jet ski people would run out of every home up and down the river- yellin at them to "Slow the hell down asshole". It became almost a game, a way to bring residents together. Pats on the back kinda thing. Community! After a few years that has died away. Mostly. It feels good. Make ya feel superior. Makes you feel your in the right. And dosn't accomplish a damn thing!!! Here at RR it was so bad that it actually was hurting sales across the boards. Causeing constant fighting. Constiant distress. Constant fear among picture makers. A real true "witch hunt" mentality. Now many of the "Warez hunters" have gone. I happen to agree with Cirestfot It's a leadership and a policy problem. The real fix is to make site policy that ONLY the copyright holder can post a complaint. And ONLY through channels! As it is and has been, see something, bitch about it, weather it's any of your business or not.

I don't know how long you've been around this site, Acadia but that thread is the most civil and mellow of all of the copyright infringement threads do date. I've butted heads with Blackhearted on that very issue before and his behavior in that thread is above reproach. It was actually turning quite infomative.

The poser corner thread should have been handled differently but once a store states that their merchants have the right to re-write their own TOU, that is a matter of public discussion. When their site is stating one thing and a person makes a purchase based on that they need to stick by it and not let their merchants annoy their customers with their own TOU.

That said, I believe a persons first offense should not be a public thing. I know others disagree but people are human and make mistakes. As this appears to have been Umutov's second (third?), he had that consideration already given to him the first time around.

"The real fix is to make site policy that ONLY the copyright holder can post a complaint. And ONLY through channels!
As it is and has been, see something, bitch about it, weather it's any of your business or not."

So geoegress, if someone spots a copyright infringement they are to do nothing about it? In some cases the copyright holder has nothing to do with Renderosity or 3D in general and would never know they were being ripped off if someone didn't point it out.
When that arguement is used to defend a merchant who has ripped someone off it's pretty hypocritical.

I don't dig lynch mobs, seeing those innocent souls swinging from a tree, but I reckon youse guys won't ever swing the other way, and start going after snitches instead. like this local t-shirt seller was trying to peddle stuff in the 'hood, and he quickly found out that t-shirts with messages like "Increase the Peace" don't sell, whilst t-shirts saying "Snitches get Stitches" are hot sellers.

So if a merchant is ripping off somebody else's hard work, we aren't to say anything, just let innocent customers continue to buy the stolen merchandise? One free stuff provider or one artist on another site or one merchant only has one pair of eyes. This community has many, and a long memory to boot! If a thread gets ugly, just stop reading it. You don't slow down and gawk at a bloody accident, do you? Yet, passing the occasional accident warns everyone of the dangers of illegal speeding or passing, and a half dozen folks will get on their cell phones to put the alert out so the proper authorities can get involved. Carolly

Kendra :) I don't know of a single merchant that dosn't have an email. Including myself. Who would love to be told something 'might' be afowl. Even if they are not a merchant here they do still have the right and the tool set to file a complaint. You (ppl in general), when you go public are makeing the assumption that something nafarious has happened. That could easily be a mistake. I have myself given permission to a couple of other ppl to use parts from some of my products. Many eyes are a usefull tool, no doubt about it :) But only ONE voice is valid. Any others are just gosip. If you think a possible infringment has happened, then by all means send the owner an IM or an email. Let them decide on what to do. Then butt out. For you to go to such a black and white extream is unfair to me Kendra. I never said do nothing. Yet you make my point. There are many shades of grey. And the best eyes are those who have a vested interest.

hauksdottir on 1/28/06 16:08 So if a merchant is ripping off somebody else's hard work, we aren't to say anything, just let innocent customers continue to buy the stolen merchandise? Absolutely. See carolly, if you say anything, to them, then we won't be able to form the lynch mob, to go after the poor shmuck who's still using the product, completely unaware that there is a copyright problem with the product.

@Geogress :) You're just as guilty of not reading as you accuse me of hon. I have always advocated going to the staff or the merchant and not posting these accusations publicly. - Always - You don't like the way your statement was made into black and white but you wrote it that way whether you meant it that way or not. And no where in my statement did I say anything about a public lynch mob type of accusation.

As I said, take it to the staff. Reasons for going to the staff rather than the merchant could vary. I would not want someone accusing me of wanting to eliminate competition as I'm not competitive in the least when it comes to this marketplace, and I know that's happened to others.

I'm curious Acadia, as to why you posted this publicly rather than a private letter to the Staff.
You posting a link to a thread seems to only draw yet more attention to it.

It seems to contradict the very point you are trying to make in your post.

I have to disagree with the statement that the threads do nothing to bring the community together.
The way I see it,is a thread with 169 relatively civil post by dozens of community members,assembling to fight a common goal,certainly doesn't seem like it's tearing the community apart.

Tom Edited for Tie-Poes

Message edited on: 01/29/2006 00:29

What's wrong with trying to make the community a better place? Nothing. And there's nothing wrong with pissing in the wind, either. bonni

It's obvious that the thread was planned by the perpetrators in order to bring attention to the alleged offense. This extension, in this forum, is presumably, for the same purpose.

" These threads are a common way for merchants to gain publicity. There are a few old hands in there." thats not the first time someone has insinuated that - the first to do so was umutov himself. i dont want any publicity here. if you noticed, i hardly even post in the forums anymore - ive barely said anything here in years, whereas before that i was one of the loudest voices in any discussion. i just want to mind my own business, do my work, make a living and be left alone. i would gladly have avoided this entire issue altogether - but it has occurred, through no action of my own. i didnt solicit him to steal my work and pass it off as his own. you think i enjoy having my hard work pilfered by someone so arrogant and conceited, resold for 4 months under his name at 2 different stores, and then having him IM me with smug remarks about how my reporting him for these violations will be but a minor inconvenience for him? i only wish you become a merchant, release something worth stealing, and have something like this happen to you so you can feel what its like. i cannot begin to describe to you how i felt at 2am friday morning over a week ago when i looked at his promos in his store and started recognizing my work.. then clicked the next product and saw it again, and again, and again. the feeling when realising that some of them have been in the store since october. not to mention the rage when he sent me his smug IMs, or the frustration ovver the week of my life that he wasted when he does not deserve even a moment of passing consideration. this person feels no remorse whatsoever. not over the theft of my work, nor the theft of as shanim's or daz's. he feels no guilt. the only thing he feels right now is anger at myself and the store admins who banned him - he sees this as an 'injustice' to him. it still hasnt sunk in - and probably never will - that only he is to blame for this happening to him. and please, enough with the 'there is good in him' and 'im sure he is so saddened by this...' posts - dont make me puke. a quick search in the merchant forum for his name and you will see exactly what a sweet, helpful and ethical person he is. he was a shining beacon of virtue at renderosity. rolls eyes " It's obvious that the thread was planned by the perpetrators in order to bring attention to the alleged offense." alleged offence? have you seen the comparisons? 6 products have been pulled by two stores, and i have just reported one more. both stores examined them, as well as daz and 3rd parties, and there wasnt any doubt. he included daz V3 morph information in several of the packs that was unaltered - and could be mathematicallly compared. if by 'alleged' you mean that he hasnt been convicted in a court of law then you must be mad. if the only way for someone to be seen as a thief in the community is if i spend months of my time and thousands of my dollars to have him extradited from australia to canada and charge him formally in a court of law over the theft of an intangible internet item that made a few thousand dollars tops, then noone will ever be seen as a thief and copyright violations will run rampant because that is beyond the reach of even a full studio like Daz3D's resources. its the knowledge of the anonimity and relative freedom from criminal prosecution that the internet affords that gives these people the nerve to do these things in the first place... then people like you and acadia flock to their defense - for god knows what agenda - and make it even worse. what is your agenda btw? you would be happy to just sweep it under the rug? just pretend it didnt happen? well, im not going to let that happen, and you can argue in here until youre blue in the face and its not going to change that in the least. wherever he decides to show up, under whatever nickname, ill be there to point out just what type of person he is. i did not ask for this to happen - nor did i do anything to invite it. it has happened though, and i am fully involved now, and im damned well going to make certain that he never does this again, anywhere, to anyone.

I don't consider that a Lynch-Mob type thread. I actually was glad to hear about it. As for your perception, I see it as being slightly tainted. I'm guessing your a TRUE Realist, meaning > there is no famine in the world, no 6 year olds shooting class mates in schools, no terrorism, no homelessness, & god forbid NO theft. As for the publicity crap.... Gabriel doesn't need it, not IMO. His items, art & reputation speak for itself. Just My opinion on the subject. Take it.... or leave it(which will probably be your choice) But, I'll still back Gabriel & His right to defend His copyrights 110%. ~Thomas

Wait? There's a lynch mob for Umatov? Am I too late? Who has the rope? I brought bean dip and salsa! Where can I set up my lawn chair?

I'm part of a lynch mob? COOL! Wait if that was a lynch mob, what was it in the past, because past debaucles have been MUCH worse. I, for one, am glad that it was made public. I already knew about it via my own channels. If I'm not mistaken, his store had only been gone, in its entirety, less than 24 hours when the post was made. Would you have him back here selling tainted goods? Oh, silly question, of course you would.

1. Some people need to be lynched.
2. Few things bring a community closer together than expelling a poison element within.
3. "Can't we all just get along?" is so 90's.

I generally try to keep out of these things but I can no longer sit back and watch a fellow merchant and talented artist being forced to defend himself when he is the one that has been so blatantly and wilfully violated by someone whose general demeanor and attitude have been nothing more than self posturing arrogance.

A man who upon seeing himself heading towards being in the Top 30 Merchants ranted for days about how wonderful his work is and how so many of the products in the MP were not even worthy to be in the Free Stuff section. Apparently an area that he doesn't hold in very high regard either. A man who has often said how so many hated him because of his success and obviously envied his talent.

Please don't tell me that for one minute, Umutov is humiliated or embarrassed by any of this but if he is, then he should have thought about that before he stole Blackhearted's work. Oh but wait! this is not the first time he has been caught and he comes back for seconds or thirds ? ...give me a break!

If these two stores were in a strip mall, and one shop owner broke into the other's store, stole items, altered and sold them as his own creations and was found guilty, we'd hear about it on the evening news with all the gory details along with a nice mugshot. Nobody would be calling the television station to protest at the humiliation and embarrassment caused to the thief, so why is that being done here ?

The offended party would be sure to discuss his experience with his family and friends and probably other store owners in the strip mall. Isn't that what is happening here except that he is the one being castigated and the thief is getting sympathy ?

...there sure as hell is something wrong with this picture.

This is not a lynch mob. Blackhearted did not start this thread and he is not the offender here. I for one, never want to see things like this swept under the rug and customers like you and me, left to wonder if what we purchase is 100% legal.

Starting a thread to protest about the content of another thread and including a link to what offended you it is totally counter productive to the desired result and to suggest that it is/was a publicity stunt is not only ludicrous but downright insulting.

I was holding myself on the original thread, but i couldn't do it when i read the OP, because it sounds like we're all a bunch of greedy monsters.

The "without just cause" part of the OP's post is interesting and even laughable in this case, since it is more than clear that it IS indeed a case of theft.

As for bringing "the community together", well.. I as part of the community certainly don't want to see thiefs taking advantage and making money out of other merchants sacrifice and work without even recognizing they are wrong.

Attitude is not the way to go, excusing the poor little robbers neither, and i am really glad that thread happened so everybody knows that is NOT ok to play others, sooner or later you'll be caught and it won't be pretty.

We're not dealing with an innocent child here, we're dealing with an adult who was smart enough to know what to do in order to make an easy buck, so let's not excuse him like we excuse a child shall we?

Quote - and to suggest that it is/was a publicity stunt is not only ludicrous but downright insulting.

I never said or even suggested anything like that!

Quote - Would you have him back here selling tainted goods? Oh, silly question, of course you would.

Of course not. However, what does patting Blackhearted on the head and saying "Poor you!" over and over again, or continuously bashing the offender accomplish? Nothing.

Quote - a fellow merchant and talented artist being forced to defend himself when he is the one that has been so blatantly and wilfully violated by someone whose general demeanor and attitude have been nothing more than self posturing arrogance.

Defend himself against what? It's extremely clear that he is the wronged individual, so why does he feel a need to defend that?

My point is that this whole situation was taken care of by the site staff in a very professional manner. An investigation was done, the violator was banned, refunds were given, and all without turning it into a public scandal. There was no need for it to be made front page of the "National Enquirer" so to speak. BH was wronged, yes, but justice was served and the situation taken care of.

What more is there to say about the matter?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not without sympathy for Blackhearted, or anyone else who has been wronged in such a way. However I'm also not a fan of scandals and "bashing" people regardsless of who it is. I feel that type of energy is so negative and could be expended in a much more positive way.

Quote - Attitude is not the way to go, excusing the poor little robbers neither

I hardly think that he was "excused". Apparently he was banned from being a merchant here and elsewhere. Anyone who has read that other thread won't every buy from him again. The chances of him being able to return to the Poser community in any fashion is pretty slim, if not nil. I hardly consider that "excused".

Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud. Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?

Message edited on: 01/30/2006 15:54

Acadia, the "excuse" word was actually refering to your post, which sounded apologetic and in his favor, and i don't think i was the only one who read it like it that.
You said "People are innocent until proven guilty and that same ideal should hold true here", which was NOT the case, that is why it sounded to me like you were "excusing" the offender.
If i read it wrong, i apologize.

You know what? Gabe and I have never been friends, but make NO mistake. He is the victim in this situation. And I'm not even going to waste my breath (or my keyboard) on the idiotic notion that he orchestrated any of this for publicity he doesn't even need.

The Umutov I know is the same one KymJ posted about. All he ever talked about was who was being unfair to him, who was standing in the way of him being in the top 30, and how many products were inferior to his work. Oh wait, maybe I should say the work he ripped off.

As far as "only one voice" being valid for copyright complaint, I totally disagree. Let me give you an example. Say frednewmerchant posts a set of tiling textures for sale. Along comes Bonni, who sees that the textures were all copied pixel for pixel straight out of Activision's Trading Spaces Design Companion. Do we let her report it and handle it internally? Or do we get the copyright holders involved? Suddenly we're talking about a major software company and a major cable network (The Learning Channel). They might not play as nice as Gabe has, or as DAZ does. They've got no reason to care whether Renderosity stays in business or not. Before you laugh, I reported a newbie merchant here last year for a very similar violation. It was handled quietly and internally, and AFAIK the merchant is still selling here. Maybe you've bought some of his/her products. :-)

Acadia, We are dealing with an international community. Should Blackhearted have to fly to wherever umutov lives in order to hire lawyers and file suit and wait months for a court in another land to determine damages? How much of his creative time ought he to spend to recover some of what he has lost? Meanwhile, this is not the first time umutov has taken an ID and plagiarized the work of other artists. He WILL be back, in some form, plying his trade again and ripping off other merchants again. He has no remorse and no sense of shame. Some people have reformed, once caught. However, if a person has done this at least twice, under two identities, we can feel justified that they will never reform, but continue to take the easy way... by siphoning sales from others. Once might be ignorance, twice is a pattern! The only thing we as a community can do is stick up for the people who actually create original work and shun the thieves whenever we see them. This requires publicity, not secrecy! Oh, we can also shop carefully. If someone is tainted, I don't even use their freebies. Reputation is everything. Carolly

Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?

It's generally not worth it - going after someone in another country, paying the lawyers, etc. You'd spend more money than you'd get back. (Though every once in awhile, you run into someone who's more interested in setting an example than in money, and will jump through all the hoops and take it to court.)

That is one reason why the traditional punishment for thieves in Poserdom is ostracism. They usually are not punished in any other way. They don't have to give back their ill-gotten gains or go to jail. Instead, they're shunned.

Patting Blachearted on the head? I'd be the last one to and he knows that. But when a wrong has been committed I'll be there to defend the injured parties, period. And make no mistake Gabe, As Shanim and any merchant who partnered with him are all injured parties. Has anyone stopped to think where those refunds came from? It wasn't just r'ositys cut and Umuts cut that had to go back to customers. So if any of them wanted to come to forums and pitch a bitch, I'd not blame them. Instead they're choosing to chalk it up to lessons learned. Atleast this time it wasn't a merchant resource that left hundreds of merchants affected as well and scrambling to fix products that should've been OK to begin with. Hmm have you got the thousands it takes to prosecute a half dozen cases of copyright infringement? Make that International copyright infringement. No? Neither do most of us.

Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud. Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?

IIRC, umutov is a resident of Australia.

Pursuing someone via an international lawsuit for the type of money that we are likely discussing here simply wouldn't be to the financial advantage of the wronged parties involved. Such an attempt would cost a lot more money than it would ever recover. Assuming that the effort was able to recover anything.

Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages? No offense, Acadia, but this statement shows how very little you know about legal proceedings. There is a LOT of time and money involved with taking someone like Umutov to court. Perhaps you neglected to read what Gabe said in post #16? if by 'alleged' you mean that he hasnt been convicted in a court of law then you must be mad. if the only way for someone to be seen as a thief in the community is if i spend months of my time and thousands of my dollars to have him extradited from australia to canada and charge him formally in a court of law over the theft of an intangible internet item that made a few thousand dollars tops, then noone will ever be seen as a thief and copyright violations will run rampant because that is beyond the reach of even a full studio like Daz3D's resources. And I just don't see how it's a bad thing that potential customers and partners have been warned that Umut has had two stores closed for willfully violating multiple copyrights.

"My point is that this whole situation was taken care of by the site staff in a very professional manner."

No, that is not your point. Your point is that you don't like people talking about this subject, so you started an entirely new thread hoping to gain support from other dandy flower people.

"What more is there to say about the matter?"

Whatever we want, up until the forum mods decide otherwise. That's the way a forum works.

"However I'm also not a fan of scandals and "bashing" people regardsless of who it is."

I am a fan of bashing people who do bad things. That's one vote for, one against. I guess we'll need a tie-breaker.

"Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud."

They are correct. Let me ask you something. Do you cry when Simon makes fun of someone on American Idol?

Quote - and to suggest that it is/was a publicity stunt is not only ludicrous but downright insulting.

I never said or even suggested anything like that!

No you didn't and I didn't mean to suggest that you did but it has been said in this thread, albeit not by you :)

Quote - a fellow merchant and talented artist being forced to defend himself when he is the one that has been so blatantly and wilfully violated by someone whose general demeanor and attitude have been nothing more than self posturing arrogance.

[QUOTE]Defend himself against what? It's extremely clear that he is the wronged individual, so why does he feel a need to defend that?[/QUOTE]

I didn't say he felt the need, I said he was "forced". If someone started a thread that involved me or my products, I would want to set the record straight too. Given the tone of some of Gabe's posts, this is about as restrained as I have ever seen him and highly commendable IMHO.

[QUOTE]My point is that this whole situation was taken care of by the site staff in a very professional manner. An investigation was done, the violator was banned, refunds were given, and all without turning it into a public scandal. There was no need for it to be made front page of the "National Enquirer" so to speak. BH was wronged, yes, but justice was served and the situation taken care of.[/QUOTE]

That's true too but the actions of Umutov are far worse than scandalous and justice is a long way from having being served.

Scroll back and read what Gabe had to say about what is involved in hauling his ass into court...you got a lazy million sitting in the bank you want to donate towards seeing it happen ? :) A million might be a slight exaggeration but trust me, it would cost a small fortune made even worse by the fact that he's in Australia.

It's not a case of bashing for the enjoyment of bashing. It's just outrage on the part of merchants who spend weeks and months working on a product, putting their heart and soul into it only to turn around and have it stolen and customers who spend their hard earned money here, only to find that they can't use what they bought. It's not like he stole so he could make a pretty picture, which would be bad enough... he deliberately stole in order to line his own pockets.

Things like this affect everyone because it puts doubt in the mind of customers, it reflects on Renderosity and costs them money and it completely wastes the time of the merchant whose work has been stolen. Merchants and customers need to know that they can purchase products here with confidence and you will never stop people from speaking out in the harshest terms against those who deliberately choose to take the wrong path thinking they will get away with it.

As for the "publicity stunt" angle that's come up in these threads a few times --

No, this wasn't a "publicity stunt" -- other than perhaps on umutov's part. But it kind of backfired on him........

However: pointing that aspect of things out doesn't stop the reality of the fact that "any publicity is good publicity", at least when it comes to marketing. In the past, I've had a couple of merchants who were involved in bru-ha-ha's of one sort or another admit to me that they enjoyed a sudden spike in their sales during the bru-ha-ha's prime time forum run. It wasn't usually FUN for the merchant: but they did sell more stuff for a while.

I realize that some people don't like hearing annoying truths like this at such a time as this: but there it is.

BUT -- for the sake of anyone out there who is half-bright, let me be clear: I am in NO way, shape, or form implying that anyone involved in this situation "set this thing up" in the interests of obtaining publicity. It's clear that a theft was committed here, and that the theft was committed with intent. It wasn't an unintentional stumble of the sort that merchant newbies sometimes miss in their work. This one was deliberate. So, no: this wasn't a "publicity stunt".

It's one thing to point out the natural effect of....uh......"bad" publicity. That's merely an empirical observation. But it would be another matter entirely to suggest that the bad publcity came about as the result of a planned-out scheme.

Conspiracy theories aren't my bag. Although they can be entertaining.

i agree with trav that what Mark-uk said was very unkind, and unwarranted.

@ trav --

Don't let it bother you, my man.

Just answer back this way: "Well....if I am a shill, at least I come by it honestly. Unlike some others."

It'll do.

Ruh-roh. The dreaded thread-lock request. I must be at renderosity.

Ruh-roh. The dreaded thread-lock request. I must be at renderosity.

Yeah. They're a bunch of meanies around here. Always trying to make people be civil to each other, and all that.

Party poopers.

:p

I have to agree 100% on one point, though: a thread-lock request is not the way to do it. At least not effectively.

I guess I'd better get something in here before it gets locked.

Hmmm...OK,

Why can't we all just ...get along?
-Jack Nicholson in Mars Attacks

Message edited on: 01/30/2006 17:13

I applogize for my earlier post. Upon reflection the proper response is the one I will now take, simply not to paticipate in this discussion. mike

Trav, no need to apologize. Also no need have the thread locked. Just tell Mark_UK you don't care what he thinks. Nice 'n tidy. Point made, no thread lock required.

Acadia said:"However, what does patting Blackhearted on the head and saying "Poor you!" over and over again, or continuously bashing the offender accomplish? Nothing.: Well, first of all, Blackhearted has the softest hair. It must be the condittioner he uses or perhaps he has a stylist. Whatever the reason, patting his head is an aesthetic treat. You really should try it. Continuously bashing the offender. Well, thats just the really fun part. smile It makes me smile. Thats what it accomplishes. Are you sure we can't hang 'em? ---------------------------------------- Acadia also asked:"Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud. Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?" Isn't Umatov an Aussie? Maybe a thousand or even two thousand dollars was puschased (I am just estimating). Going after him would mean trying the matter in Australian court as a foreign plaintiff. Maybe the fact that it would cost more to go after him than it is worth? Maybe outing him or "bashing" him, as you say, is all that can be sought for right now considering finances. Acadia. He has it coming. What are YOU accomplishing by telling us to stop dragging it out when every response you give only drags it out more? This guys gets what he deserves. Sorry you don't feel that way, but as a consumer, I feel quite happy to this guy hung from the yard arm. We can't say ENOUGH bad things about him. And frankly, I am HAPPY to see the community gather together in arms against him. If anything, it has bettered the community. They now stand united against all that would try this again. It may act as a deterrent, it may not. But it is heartening to see all these people stand as one against a criminal. I'm happy to be a part of a community that won't stand for such a thing. You can call it "bashing" if you want. To me, its just good healthy outrage. Blackhearted, in my opinion, has acted like a saint. He has been helpful and informative. Umatov is a thief. Why waste ANY sympathy on him.

Quote - Umatov is a thief. Why waste ANY sympathy on him.

I don't consider sympathy/empathy towards any living thing to be a waste. I guess that's where I differ from many of you. It's a good thing you aren't in the medical field. I'm a nurse and prisoners get sick and need to be hospitalized from time to time. I've looked after some of the worse case offenders you can imagine, in addition I've worked in pychiatric nursing on locked wards looking after people who have been deemed too mentally insane to stand trial for their heinous crimes. I treat them just like anyone else, and not because it's part of my job, but because I really care about people and all living things in general. Some may find that hard to believe or to even understand, but that's how I am and how I was raised. I'm not ashamed of that. :)

quote:I guess that's where I differ from many of you. see, you do differ from us. yet those of us with differing opinions, moral viewpoints, or values should not be brought to task by you who ADMITTEDLY differs. difference is a good thing.

Great! You are a nurse. Now lets consider EXACTLY what has happened to the poor, poor Umatov. Has he been physically beaten because of this. Hmmmm.....no.... Has his life actually been imperiled? Hmmmmm....no.... Have a few people let him know that they despise that kind of behavior and let him know it is not welcome in the community?.... yes.... Have a few harsh words been said about Umatov and his behavior?.... yes.... Has he been banned from selling?.... yes... As a living thing, he was not imperiled. While you were dancing on your moral soapbox, Acadia, you failed to realize words are the only thing we have in an interent forum. Would I really want to see him hung for his thievery. No. I wouldn't mind if he had to be imprisoned for a while and then pay the money back that he stole from BlackHearted. Since we have no way of enforcing that, unfortunately, we must resort to the social punishment we have left. Ostracization. We are talking out loud about how we despise the practice. We are upset and duly so over a criminals actions. So we talk about it. We chastise him for it and "bash" him as you like to say. So what? If he reads it and his feelings are hurt. Oh well. I doubt from what I have heard about him he will suddenly come to grips with what a weinie he is and give back the money he stole. It lets Blackhearted and others who have been wronged vent to the community and when we vent back about Umatov, it lets them know they are not alone. That we too do not support that type of behavior. They feel more a part of the community and maybe don't just get fed up, fold up shop, and decide not to sell anymore stuff cause they feel their community is ungrateful or supportive. Since you liked giving extreme examples... what if you were stolen from and there was special gag order forbidding you to talk about it with ANYONE about it. You see people in the community want to know where that merchant went and they want to look to buy more products. You know for a fact that while he has been run off of the immediate vicinity, he may crop up again. Wouldn't you want to warn others and let them know? Wouldn't you want to look out for your community? Now, what if you feel the punishment was not harsh enough for the crime but that it was all that could be done? The social forum is all we have to discuss this. Since it truly physically hurts no one for you to bandage, there are no human rights violations going on and no harm done. Since it helps the community rally around and support the victim of a crime, it serves a purpose right there in strengthening the community. If you like Umatov so much, go bake him some cookies. We want to badmouth him. We're gonna. Whether there is a thread for it or no. The more you come here and attmept to defend him, the more fuel you give to the fire. Burn, baby, burn.

The one thing that intrigues me about all this is the person who actually posted it. Take a trawl back through the copyright forum and who has posted several new threads advising people to check out site a or site b because they are "shock, horror" stealing people's artwork. Personally I don't think it was a lynch-mob type thread at all, in fact it was exceedingly polite and well mannered unlike many in the past (and yes I can read through the archives thanks........passes my time when waiting for a render you know). As the marketplace seemingly did nothing to notify customers of this problem then how else are they going to know? Personally I want to know, I got caught out in my first weeks of using Poser because I accepted a gift from a "friend" that turned out to be a Warez item. I put it behind me, apologised profusely to all concerned and insist on gift certs or cash now rather than product - unless you are a nice merchant who wants to give me a few freebies ;o) The last thing I want is to be hit because I'm using a product withdrawn due to the vendor being a thieving little git.

I certainly don't want to have to lock this thread so I think since everyone has made their point, its time to move on:) Lets just let this thread die a natural death. Thanks Stacey Community Manager

Quote - The one thing that intrigues me about all this is the person who actually posted it. Take a trawl back through the copyright forum and who has posted several new threads advising people to check out site a or site b because they are "shock, horror" stealing people's artwork.

Excuse me? You have me mistaken for someone else, because I've never posted anything like that here. I'd appreciate you pointing out a thread where I posted something like that? I'd be interested in seeing it myself because that's certainly news to me :)
Message edited on: 01/31/2006 14:05

Quote - The more you come here and attmept to defend him, the more fuel you give to the fire.

I'm not defending anyone. My position on this is completely neutral. What I am standing up for is privacy, confidentiality and a better atmosphere to our community. Threads like the ones I pointed out are like runaway trains where people feed off of each others' negative energy and it just keeps escalating.

As I already said, this thread has run its course..Seems all sides have made their statements and we need to let it die out. I will lock it if needed, please move on. Thanks Stacey

Please lock it. The plea has fallen on deaf ears, so no sense keeping it open any longer. And while you're at it, please take the time to lock the one in the Poser forum as well.

Valerian70 has taken her baseless accusations to PM and as I pointed out to her based on a link she sent me where I was asking who the artist is of a particular picture (without giving a reason why I was asking), was not posting telling people to go and look for their art and expressing "horror" at stolen art. It just so happened in that case I liked the picture and wanted to get permission to use it in an animated snowglobe and I knew the image was included in a PSP tutorial at another site, so I knew the person whose site I got it from wasn't the artist.

Message edited on: 01/31/2006 14:48

Please don't lock it... Acadia wants silence, but silence sends the wrong message to those who would ruin the Marketplace and ruin the artists who create original work by letting crimes pass unnoticed. We are being civil here. MUCH more civil than in many threads. And the issue under discussion is vital. We as a community must protect each other, or there is no community to protect. Carolly