Hi, I'm trying to export several objects from Vue 5 Infinite to .obj format in order to get them into Poser. I recieve the message "Sorry, the objects have been locked from export. The object cannot be exported." What can I do to get around this? Thanks!

You're SOL on this one. There's no way around this that I know of.

1st, do you have the latest patch for Vue? There were some issues after the last "offical" release for Vue 5 Inf. Try the beta releases. 2nd, is this an item you bought? Some of them are locked on purpose - there is no work-around. 3rd, Go the other way. Import your Poser stuff into Vue. Peggy

You can give e-on credit for doing this for its encryped and copy proteced models I am afraid. What if Poser or 3dmax and other application would lock their exports so could not be used in other applications. Would any one care..........? I think this is what a lot of the paranoid or piracy thread was all about. :)

Yes, that kind of paranoia can be the downfall of a company. In the late '70's through the first half of the '80's most of the 3D CAD companies tried to force their customers to use THEIR software on THEIR hardware using THEIR support personnel. Everything was proprietary. Applicon, ComputerVision, Calma, Prime. All dead now. Companies that try to maintain a captive audience die when someone comes along that offers more flexibility, more tranlatability, more options. I think customers today demand software products that can communicate with as many other applications as possible. We want as much choice as we can get. Applications that can't communicate are going to become very minor players, if they can survive at all. Heh! Pet peeve of mine. Probably of a LOT of people. At any rate, it does appear that this product was locked on purpose. So I may be SOL after all.

Excuse me for asking, but what does SOL stand for officially? I know it must mean "on your own", but I am curious, as English is not my native tongue

Sad Out of Luck...

How is the legal situation on items that are created for a software that had no export features and that has added this feature after? Can anybody answer me this? I guess the answer is "we don't care, we want export".

I guess the question could best be answered in a Daz or Rdna forum where the models they sell can all be used and exported and not locked by encryption if I am understanding your comment correctly. What if Daz would lock their pz3 files for export. Same for other file formats. Why is it vue has to be encrypted for the items it sells in its store is what I and lots of others will never understand. :) Is it paranoid or afraid someone is going to give a cheap model to someone else. Other vendors are not worried so WHY is my question that Vue is so afraid that an honest consumer will turn into a crook once they buy the model. :) If a vendor wants their models locked for export then say it will not export and can only be used in Vue if that is what the vendor wants in a detail list when the model is displayed for sale.

Gordon_S; If the models you want to export are the excellent houses in Vue that Alain Gracia created, it was a stipulation he requested of e-on at the time the contracted them; no redistribution, period. That was no issue in Vue4, as nothing exported. If it is newer content, then it was the decision of the content creator to not allow export. On that first import into Vue, you'll find a check box for blocking export. The 'encryption' iloco is...discussing, as it were... is nothing but =KEY ENCRYPTION= (that was for others who seem to have problems parsing things). If you've bought any of the SolidGrowth plants from the e-on site, you know you had to wait a day or three for the installation code, which was keyed to the reg code of -your- copy of Vue (As an example: I could give my zip of the orange tree, and the reg key, to a friend, and it would throw an invalid code error and not work, since it wasn't my copy of Vue it was installed on). What has happened since Cornucopia went live is that they've automated the process; the reg key is embedded into the content you buy at download time, so that it only installs on your chosen version of Vue. And you don't have to wait 2 days to use your purchase, and don't have to enter a couple hundred 20 digit codes if you have to do a reinstall. That is =all= the so-called 'encryption scheme' does. It has nothing to do with whether an object can be exported or not. With the exception of the SolidGrowth plants (which is proprietary e-on knowledge), that decision is in the hands of the content creator/provider. (And just to be scrupulously fair, which is frankly beginning to get a bit wearing, the first three 5.08 updates that enabled the key encryption scheme broke Vue to the point that =all= the export functions were....for lack of a better phrase, fubared. That has long since been fixed).

Iloco, you have not answered my question. I am not interested in what the situation with other programs that always had an export option is, i ask how the legal situation is if that is not the case.

I answered your question to ask on forums where there are no locked and encrypted models to one specific version of an application. I am not a lawyer as it seems everyone who is biased with Vue is. :) I only know what I see and how I see it. With Daz models I can use on different computers with different applications because they are not tied to one specific version of an application. Wabe you being a beta tester should know better than anyone what problems encryption has caused with plants and models not working as they should work. Is all this time involved trying to get them to work worth the man hours that have been used. Will the models make enough money to pay for all this trouble. :) Would C3d have made more money by listening to people who dont want all this crap in their software. I know for a fact there are many who have boycotted the store because of the encryption of the models and plants. I would have probly spent 2-3 Hundred dollars had the meshes not been encrypted. Why should I buy something from someone who dont trust me enough once they get my money to use the software on my computer as other Vendors let us do. I just dont get the attitude of those in charge I guess.

You still have not answered my question. Obviously you are lawyer enough to know that what you want is legal. And of course you do not believe e-on when they say that there is a legal issue with Vue 4 items that were made under the assumption that there is no export. As well, the rights of creators that do not want export we don't care about too. They HAVE to give us all we want, full stop. That others make it different is a really weak argument in my eyes. For each and everything you will find people that do differently.

Don't understand you at all wabe but then again thats nothing un usual. I guess business is done different in France than what we do it in the USA. :) With e-ons attitude it the company comes first and the customer last. The way we do it in the USA is the customer comes first and if we didn't listen we would be out of business in no time. I see lots of business run off from C3d store because of this approach of having to encrypt all its meshes to one and only one version of Vue and if you need it for another version you got to download again for the mesh to work in the different versions. Just don't make sense to me but then again I guess its not suppose to since I am so lame and don't understand anything. :) Money always talked when I was in business for 40 years and I did listen to my customers. If I hadnt I could not be retired and living a comfortable life as I enjoy now. Had I not listened I would proably be on welfare. :) You know I bought Vue 4 and have upgraded to each version since and I still like Vue for what it was intended to be. I just don't want to see it get so bogged down with encryption and have people be seen as criminals who do want to buy from C3d. Is that to much to ask so that both Vue and C3d will both make money. :)

We go in circles. You do not care for legal issues at all - an interesting aspect of American business attitude. I for example respect the issues my suppliers have and do not ignore that only because i think they do wrong. Example? Images from image libraries. Do i give them to my clients for free only because i paid for them? No, would be against the conditions i have bought them under. Even when the image libraries are American companies like Getty Images. But i think we discussed it a lot before and will never come to an agreement.

The objects were created in Vue 4 D'Esprit by a commercial 3D artist. Fortunately, I contacted the original dealer about the problem, and they were able to supply me with the models in a friendlier format (Poser). From there, I'll be using them in Carrara 5, instead of Vue 5. I don't have any use for programs that can't "talk" to each other.

Thats my point with how e-on is running off customers instead of trying to keep and please them with how the meshes at C3d have to work with Vue. I know of others who contacted the vendors and had the files changed so they could be used in other applications. I could care less because I will not be using any of them because of how they are encrypted when other vendors don't have that foolish type of stuff in their meshes. Mystery to me why some see it as I and others do but wabe has never seen it. Amazing.

Attached Link: http://ogle.eyebeamresearch.org/

I know some of the models you can buy without the copy protection, but it isn't the case with all. It comes at a higher price. Most of my purchases at Cornucopia have been mostly plants. Even though many of the buildings are very impressive, I wish they'd give more detailed images of the items. Edited to add: Curious about the program mentioned for converting 3D models, it requires a file called "GLIntercept0_5.exe" which I also downloaded and my Norton Anti-Virus program indicates the file is a security risk. Guess I won't be installing this program. Thought others might want to know. GLIntercept0_5.exe

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 16:34

PC Cillan is OK with it on my end :)

Good ole Norton has always had a problem reconizing legit from bad files. Thats why I don't use it. Downloaded ok to my computer and didn't get no virus or trojan alarm.

Ya know, if we hear a loud crack or two, we will know someone's necks broke. >:( ~Shrugs~ Im with Iloco and Gordon

As I always said, Vue is a fantastic software but the company administrators are from another world. We see this kind of discussion regularly on this site. That's why Vue sales are so limited and it's a shame.

You got that right.........being from another world. They know what is going on but would never change their behavior, attitude or opinion by being so biased. Sad that others can see what has happened and some are still wearing blinders. :) Public opinion is like in most countrys being ignored by a select few who will never admit wrong or look for change to make it as the public wants. :)

Re: GLIntercept0_5.exe. It's a debugging tool for developers working with OpenGL. While it's not of itself malicious, Norton is entirely correct to flag it as a security risk. It hooks into Windows message queues and copies those messages elsewhere, which is exactly the way that keyloggers work when they're intercepting your credit card details, and I guess you wouldn't want Norton to ignore that?

As to the eyebeamresearch software; this uses GLIntercept to hijack the geometry sent to the OpenGL API from a target app, should work in theory, though, if the developers are going to give examples of stealing meshes from Google Earth and a big games developer as they do, I wouldn't fancy their chances of being around for too long. But hey, if you're happy with stealing other people's work, it should do the job, so grab it while you can.

I want to "grab" the work that was MINE or other artists freebies to begin with!!!!!!! That EON/VUE decided to hijack & claim as there own once converted.....and yes I take responsibility for not backing up the original format that I had originally. But I WILL NOT BE TAKEN AGAIN!!!

As to game developers, they encourage this so people can make addons etc etc. And JW before you accuse or infer people are stealing....if want to know how much I(speaking for myself here) have spent in this community & others PM me.....I'll be more than happy to give you a total :) And itemized by store. I will get back what's MINE no matter how long it takes >:(. No need to continue the lecture...cause I'm NOT listening and don't care what YOU have to say. END.

Message edited on: 02/03/2006 17:34

Wabe wrote:

"You do not care for legal issues at all - an interesting aspect of American business attitude. I for example respect the issues my suppliers have and do not ignore that only because i think they do wrong. Example? Images from image libraries. Do i give them to my clients for free only because i paid for them? No, would be against the conditions i have bought them under. Even when the image libraries are American companies like Getty Images."

I don't think that you relaize the point of the problem. Now take that ONE step further like E-On has. What if the images from your image library that you bought would ONLY work in Photoshop. But perhaps you also work in Paint Shop Pro for a few special things. But since you can ONLY use these images that you bought in Photoshop... you're SOL if you want to use them in PSP. Not too fair is it now? When you look at things in a different perspective (regardless of what side of the pond you are on) you may see how unfair it is.

Does THAT make it a little more clear? I should be able to use ANY of the objects I bought for Vue in Poser or Lightwave or anything else - as long as I don't allow others to have them for free, which is kind of obvious. This "copy protection" is only stopping us legitimate users from fully using the product. Pirates have no problem with these schemes as we have seen all to well in the past.

Megalodon

Good example. We buy the right to use a 3D object. What APPLICATION we choose to use it in is OUR business. Period. And any app which restricts that choice?? Is headed into oblivion. Because their customers won't tolerate it. I buy Poser objects because of the huge selection of 3D objects available. From there they go to Lightwave or, now, Carrara 5. LW has trouble with Poser objects (yes, I have the Greenbriar plugins). Carrara doesn't. So, even though I'd RATHER use Lightwave I'm switching to Carrara. It can talk to more apps, without plugins, than any other 3D program I've seen. For what I do, it makes the most sense, and offers me the most choices.

If you import something into Vue, there's no problem to export it. Sure, if you buy a copy-protected item, you can't export it. E-on has been quiet clear about that. The way I understand e-on's reasoning is that some people are not interested in exporting their content to other apps, and e-on is simply offering them the opportunity to get their content cheaper. If you want to be able to export your content, well, don't buy copy-protected items. Go for the non-copy protected versions which are offered at Cornucopia, or stick to "generic" formats. E-on is just giving us more options. What's wrong with that?!

Perfect statement from petshoo! To megalodon. If someone does offer a model under the assumption that it can't be exported - and this is the case with all Vue 4 objects - you can not change the rules after. This is what i talk about. And nothing else. Your example is absolutely ok but does not reflect the situation we talk about here. When someone does an image and save it under tif or jpg or similar, they know exactly, that this can be opened by several 2D applications. This is not the case here! Vob so far was a "closed" format and therefore again, the assumptions were different. To illustrate the situation for a company like e-on i propose the following example. Lets assume for a moment that you would post images here at Renderosity. Now, after you did that for two years, Renderosity changes their rules and offer now to people that they can download all images, especially yours as well, to use them however they want it. Sell them, post them somewhere else, do whatever. Is that ok as well in your eyes? That is what i am talking about. As a company you can not change the rules AFTER without coming potentially into a legal conflict. For the rest i would say - read petshoo's statement! To the other discussion here, only because there is a software that can do something does not mean it is ok to do or use that. I only say Kaazaa in this context.

megalodon; Ummm.... Aren't you forgetting that little thing called IP? You could go to DAZ and buy one of those nifty architectural environmental scenes...but you can't open a Bryce br5 file with Vue. or Poser. Or Maya, for that matter. Vue's vob format is the same. As is Max's .max, and all the other compressed/proprietary formats the bigger apps use. None of us have 'bought' a single thing out of this store. Or any of them, for that matter. Check the laws; the creator of an object is the one who holds the copyright. Unless they sign away those rights, end of story. All we have done is purchase what amounts to a liscence to use that one copy of that original creation that we downloaded. And not in any way we want, but within the restrictions (or lack of restrictions) set by the creator. Exceed those limits, and you can be held liable both for old copyright violation and DMCA statute violations. There's another legal precedent called 'enabling'. That is what was used to nuke Napster, Kazaa, and others. If you make it -possible- for someone to break the law, you can be held responsible for it. Too many people have run off at the mouth over all the neat possibilities for using Vue as a file converter. That's why then Curious Labs put a restriction on their product; no export to another format from Vue. And why e-on put that option in the import control panel; to give the creator a say-so in how their creation is used.

Dale B you dont make any sense at all to me and we both from the Ve/Tenn area just a few miles apart. What you been cooking with those rendercows. :) Can anyone tell me why other apps like daz bryce LW and toehrs do not need or have code because of a store. That is my objection with all of this nonsense and I think you and wabe and others know there has been more time spent trying to make it and models talk to each other with the encryption and copy protection code from tech and developers who could have better spent that time working on bugs for Vue Inf and other Vue versions. What has Vue been out now a year and just for a Final but we have word tech is working on Version 5.10 so that alone tells everyone there is still more work and bugs to conquer. Or maybe its getting the meshes to work right befor they can be released fore sale at the store. Hmmmmmm Will the lost of man hours versus the income and profit from meshes be worth it. I am very curious as the future unfolds before us. :)

Dale B wrote:

"Aren't you forgetting that little thing called IP? You could go to DAZ and buy one of those nifty architectural environmental scenes...but you can't open a Bryce br5 file with Vue. or Poser. Or Maya, for that matter. Vue's vob format is the same. As is Max's .max, and all the other compressed/proprietary formats the bigger apps use."

This is correct, however with the applications of which I am familiar with... anything brought into Poser, Max,Maya, XSI or LW CAN be exported and I can use it in the app of my choice.

Dale B wrote:

"All we have done is purchase what amounts to a liscence to use that one copy of that original creation that we downloaded. And not in any way we want, but within the restrictions (or lack of restrictions) set by the creator. Exceed those limits, and you can be held liable both for old copyright violation and DMCA statute violations."

This is a good point. However I still feel even though I am buying the "rights" for ME to use the model, I should be able to use it in any application I choose.

Petshoo wrote:

"Sure, if you buy a copy-protected item, you can't export it. E-on has been quiet clear about that. The way I understand e-on's reasoning is that some people are not interested in exporting their content to other apps, and e-on is simply offering them the opportunity to get their content cheaper.
If you want to be able to export your content, well, don't buy copy-protected items. Go for the non-copy protected versions which are offered at Cornucopia, or stick to "generic" formats. E-on is just giving us more options. What's wrong with that?!"

This is a good point too. Personally I could not care less since I have never and will never buy anything from Cornucopia3D. I don't like the way they handled the entire fiasco of copy protection from day one.

If creators of content want to charge two different prices for the two types of content, that's fine - I won't be buying either. Essentially what that does is penalize everyone who wants to use the content in any application by making them pay for what the pirates get for free. I think it's bad business practice and I won't subsidise it.

People here were up in arms over the copy protection of Poser 5 and many said they would not buy it or future versions because of it. I was used to this having LW and WB and Mirage, etc. which require locks and passwords. I've never run into copy protection like this (not that there wasn't any mind you) and I don't like it. Therefore... like those who opposed the Poser copy protection... I oppose this type as well and won't be buying any of it - copy protected or not - since I feel we are being taken advantage of. Those who do not feel this way can of course buy anything at Cornucopia3D to their hearts content.

Megalodon

Bryce, LW and others don't offer a copy protection option. So you have to pay full price for your content, even if all you want to do is render it. Whether it was a good business decision from e-on is a good question. Indeed, I guess only time will tell. But I do know quite a few people who are glad e-on is offering this option so they can save a bit of money. I myself usually go for non copy-protected stuff, but I have occasionally gotten the cheaper copy-protected versions when I only needed an item for a render. Besides, if you find out that you need to export it later, you can always upgrade to the non copy protected version and only pay the difference. Pretty fair deal if you ask me.

Fortunately... on the internet and in many parts of the world... it's okay to disagree. Now if only those who disagreed would put away their weapons and decide it's ok to disagree and still be civil - as it has been here - this world would be a much better place. Don't you agree? :)

All the best!

Megalodon

petshoo I can go along with what you have said and how you see the models being able to have copyprotected and noncopy protected.
My objection has alway been why tie them into the Versions of Vue we like so well.
If C3d wants a store that is fine also with me. My complaint is all the work that has taken place which I see as a waste of time to keep and honest person honest. That does not make any sense at all to me.
Encryption and copyprotection should be up to the makers of the meshes and not be tied into our versions of Vue so they will only work with one version and if upgrade have to download again to get a newer version so it will work. I know there have been countless hours of what I think has been just plain nonsense when places like Rdan, Daz and the Marketplace here sell models you can download and backup on HD of CD and use in other versions on other machines.
Talk about being cheap and thinking everyone is a criminal who will be distributing the meshes is going to cost C3d a lot of money in my opinion that they would other wise be putting in the bank. I will not spend any money for how the store operates and I know of many others who decline to spend money at it also.
Doesn't anyone listen. I think not. I guess e-on and the store don't care about all the customers who don't like the way things have been handled and still being handled. :)

There is a big split going on with Vue users. The biased and the ones with open minds who have seen what has and is taking place. That should never have been because it just destroys friendship and bad feelings among the many Vue users.

Before the fiasco with the C3d store and all thats taken place it didn't use to be this way. Most all were here at Renderosity and now I see them being or trying to be lured away to the C3d site. Some are going and some will never go.
This is not good for business and surely takes money away from e-on which I am sure they can use all they can get. :)
Enough said as what I and other open minded people will not be heard so no use wasting the time to try to explain to them what it is we see. :)

Message edited on: 02/04/2006 15:14

"Encryption and copyprotection should be up to the makers of the meshes"

Cool, finally some agreement here! That's what they are, copy protected if the content creator wants them to be.

"and not be tied into our versions of Vue so they will only work with one version and if upgrade have to download again to get a newer version so it will work."

Well that's cool too! They will work with upgrades without having to download again, so where's the problem?

The problem is we can not download them and use but in only one version of vue which they have to be tied to. They should be as the older plants and like daz, rdna and market place meshes so we can use as we see fit and not how C3d wants us to be under their total control. Why can they not be as other market places. That is my question. Why does C3d or e-on not trust its customers when they get their money. Do you not agree that a lot of lost time and man hours have been spent on trying to keep honest people honest by tieding the code into Different versions of Vue when I find other places don't put this into practise and don't loose loyal people from buying from week to week as new meshes are released. :) A seperate store and a seperate Vue would to me seem more reasonable and let Vue techs take care of Vue and let Store vendors take care of their meshes. :) Now tell me what is wrong with my way of thinking and seeing things.

"The problem is we can not download them and use but in only one version of vue which they have to be tied to."

No content is not tied to a version. Copy protected content is tied to a license.

"Why can they not be as other market places. That is my question. Why does C3d or e-on not trust its customers when they get their money."

If you don't want copy protected content, you can buy it unprotected, it's up to you.

"Do you not agree that a lot of lost time and man hours have been spent on trying to keep honest people honest by tieding the code into Different versions of Vue when I find other places don't put this into practise and don't loose loyal people from buying from week to week as new meshes are released. :)"

Sorry, I find that impossible to understand, but I'm English and I guess it's a cultural thing. I do see that you mention versions again though, and as I said, it's licences, not versions that protected content is tied to.

"A seperate store and a seperate Vue would to me seem more reasonable and let Vue techs take care of Vue and let Store vendors take care of their meshes. :)

Which is no doubt why e-on have kept the two separate. As vendors we are taking care of the rights of the content creators, as we are legally obliged to.

John You just don't get it. Why when anyone has a probelem at c3d with a plant obj or all meshes the first thing they are told is to go and tell tech support their problem. Why then if they not tied into vue is it that the vendors can not take care the problems and not need tech support from Vue. Its because everything is tied into the different versions of Vue. License or whata every you want to call it its all the same. I think you and all the other biased people do understand but want admit it because of being so biased. Thats ok with me but why you fail to see all the people who would buy if you would take the blinders off and see they are only wanting meshes that work like from other vendors at site like Daz, Rdan and others. You and the committe from C3d are good at baiting but not good at understanding when so many try to get their point across to you. I can see its not about making money but about control. :)

Iloco, the way I understand it, copy-protection has to be handled by the software. There's no way the content can do that by itself. Obviously, you're free not to buy copy-protected content if you don't want it. But why would the fact that we're offered an option put you off buying anything from Cornucopia? I don't get it. We're all entitled to our opinion, and I'd just like to express the fact that, unlike others, I'm rather happy e-on and Cornucopia are offering us this option.

No one has ever told us why this has to be this way and why it can not be like other stores like daz, rdan when they sell their meshes. Can you explain why e-on and C3d have taken this route. I will not buy as it is now copy protected or non copy protected. If C3d and e-on change their way of doing business and do it like other stores sell their meshes then I will reconsider and they may get lots of my money. Untill that changes I and a lot of others have done stated no money from us. Seems like e-on and C3d would want all the money they can get if that is what their business plans are. petshoo glad you are content but as you see there are lots who don't like the arrangments as it is now. No problem as there are plenty of items from other stores to keep me busy the rest of my life. Still waiting for john to answer why if the Vue application and C3d are seperate why tech has to be involved when problems with the meshes.

OK. Obviously you've made up your mind, and you'll never purchase anything from Cornucopia because you don't like the fact that they give us a choice. It's a free world. I respect your point of view, although I don't understand your reasoning. I don't see much to add to this conversation. Good luck.

iloco; Well, if the problem is with a SolidGrown (tm) plant, those are made in-house by e-on. Period. The only way to get an error message to the creator is to tell the support tech, who will see the magical word 'plant' and throw a paper-wad across the partition to get the plant geeks attention...probably with some pithy remark about getting the chlorophyl off his screen and where it belongs and deal with it or the next object will be an office chair or bowling ball (as we =all= know how evil and vicious tech supporters are). That's one why. 2ndWhy. If the problem is with Vue 3/4 contracted content, then in too many cases, they can't contact the actual creator for corrections, so they have to do it inhouse. And many of the problems turn out to be due to corruptions in the metadata that was tacked on to allow file export capability in the first place; hence the need for the coders attention. C3D is a store...not a store and graphics house, and certainly not a software development shop (although Christie might take issue with that some nights, fighting with the databases.... ;P ). We -have- contacted some brokered artists about corrections to their items when bugs or glitches have popped up. Most of that you don't see due to the fact that the moderators do voluntary beta testing, just to be as sure as they can be about an item's quality before it goes live. All Clear.....?

Quote: And many of the problems turn out to be due to corruptions in the metadata that was tacked on to allow file export capability in the first place; hence the need for the coders attention. Exactly and now I can see little you are admitting what some others don't want to admit. It is this code which only allows one model to work in one version of the various versions of Vue. I have plants from e-on that will work in Vue Pro and also Vue Inf with out having to download again if a change with an upgrade or bad build is relesased. I got my serial number one time and the plants one time and good to good as many times as I like on various versions of Vue. Now tell me this can be done now with C3d and its meshes. I also have all of what use to be A.Garcia models that will work in any version of Vue I place them in. Yes I know they are locked from export but they were free and no reason for complaint. Why now can they not be like the older versions also. You guys know what I want to say but is hard to compete with educated computer geeeks who can twist and bait people who are not as good at saying what one wants when doesnt have a very good background for this type of debates. Soolidgrowth I don't remember seeing mention in any of my comments. Another way to try and throw the subject off track. Like I have said before Dale That coffee offer still stands and any day you would like to sit down and discuss somethings at a local restaurant I woulld love to have that meeting. I think wit what I have saved from the past and ongoing would back me up with what I am tryiong to discuss. petshoo it is not only me but lots of others who have made up their mind to not spend money with C3d in its current state of affairs. Yes it is a free world and the choice is mine and that is why I would like to see C3dand e-on listen and fix things as other would like to see and then they would reap the rewards of extra money coming in to help e-on and that store that was sneeked in on us loyal Vue user who didnt buy Vue with a store attached. :)