I still vote for Apollo Max. Modern every day non-sexy clothes, period clothes top my list.

I vote for Elle and Apollo...I'm pretty sick of unimesh and will no longer support it.

I have heard that James texture is interchangable with Koji. Has anyone heard if Jessi textures are interchangable with Miki? If that were true, then concentrating on the "Shipped with Poser 6" Figure textures would fill the "low cost to acquire", James & Jessi. And the bonus would be that the textures could be used on Koji and Miki. One Texture, two potential product buyers. I find most recent purchases for me are at R'osity becuase they seem to have the best selection for Miki and TY2. Cheers DR

"Hmmm......seems this is not about cults, but more about hidden agendas. LOL." Yep, personal resentments from the same old anti-DAZ voices. It's a poor substitute for substantial critique, and in a twisted sort of way, comic for its predictability. If you want to criticize DAZ, speak maturely of their actual shortcomings, don't just make stuff up and insult their customers. I buy frequently from that store, but if anyone wants to accuse me of mindless or cultish behavior, I'd be happy to offer some reality orientation. :-) Who with expendible income doesn't occasionally blow it on things they don't really need? If merchants want to compete with the dominant venues, the best thing they can do is excel at product and presentation. I realize that for example Anton is frustrated because Apollo is a superior product, but people aren't buying the support items in the hoped-for numbers. If he's frustrated, at least he, RDNA, and the content creators can say they gave it their best professional shot. It's frustrating for me, as someone who purchased almost everything ever made for Apollo, to read about the disappointments and the possibility that the female counterpart won't be released, but still ... at least that stuff has a reputation for high quality. Perhaps part of the problem there is the value proposition. "M3 is free ... why should I shell out for another male when what I really want is booby Barbie?" Marketing is important indeed, but word of mouth is almost as powerful in this scene. In my opinion, the Sixus model is exemplary, even if I'm only a "sometimes" customer. They've managed to build a strong reputation, a unique identity, and a very loyal customer base. They make it fun, and that matters. They're not afraid of "niche" products, and are often quite generous with freebies and low prices. That helps with loyalty and sales volume. I can think of examples of less intersting stores that I'm uninclined to visit frequently. One of them is making a sincere effort at self-promotion, but unfortunately their stock is quite uninspiring; the products appear to be of less-than-stellar quality. Not necessarily their fault as it's hard to attract "top" merchants with pre-exsiting alignments, and I don't wish them harm, but they're not doing anything that makes me think "gotta see what's up over there." Actually, there's been a bit of the opposite ... turn-offs. Avoid turn-offs within reason if possible. :-) Because we're a bit of a "closed circuit" scene, it's not commercially advantageous to have staffpersons who behave in volitile and insulting manners in public. Many of us couldn't care less about the personalities ... the product should be the thing, but realistically speaking many are put off by ugly behavior and boycott such individuals based on perceptions, for what they're worth.

I vote for the Poser People! You know the ones folks, those sad neglected Poser kids from Poser 4 all the way to Poser 6. Those fantastic Poser 6 Adults James, Jessi, Miki and Koji. I include Miki and Koji as Poser people even though they didn't come with the package. They were made and distributed by the package owners which makes them the same family of characters in my book.

"get yours straight. th Daz EULA covers dirivative works of which a hybrid is one and Dazz reserve the right to force any dirivative to be withdrawn at their request. again. READ THE EULA."

It depends upon what is meant by "derivative." I don't think you're talking about items like Dodger's Aeon figures, but if you are, they are fine as far as DAZ is concerned. At least that's what their copyright agent told me. There are some pretty clear reasons for this ... one has to have the DAZ original meshes in the first place, and for those Aeon figures that can wear DAZ mesh clothing ... still more potential sales of DAZ products. Obviously, they're very liberal regarding clothing made from their meshes in a "derivative" manner. No point in getting into the technical nitty-gritty here, but the reality is that the EULA is more about perfectly reasonable self-protection than utter monopoly. The company insists that their relationship with the community is symbiotic, that it works to mutual advantage.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 18:47

Miki and Koji are laid out roughly like James. Jessi is different. I don't think James and Koji can use each other's textures. I tried once, and it didn't quite fit.

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Miki and Koji are laid out roughly like James. Jessi is different. I don't think James and Koji can use each other's textures. I tried once, and it didn't quite fit. Thanks for the reply to that question Randym77. I think Nigel has a post with Koji wearing a 3rd Party James texture. I think it is RDNA's - Arthur. Cheers DR

Stahlratte, Just because DAZ hasn't as YET exercised their rights under the EULA doesn't mean they won't. This is not a conspiracy theory thing, but simple business sense. DAZ may be made up of nice people (I'm not making comment on that as I don't know any of them personally), but it IS a corporation. If another company were to somehow make one of their cash-cows obsolete (just for sake of example, let's say they release a better catsuit) - DAZ can force them to stop releasing it. DAZ is not a person. DAZ is not the nice support employee at the end of the phone. DAZ is a profit-motivated corporation with a responsibility to it's stakeholders. As such, when threatened by another profit-motivated entity (the creator/seller of the better catsuit), one needs to assume it will react along it's motives and NOT the best interests of the Poser public. And let's be frank, DAZ relies on irrational purchasing behaviour for a substantial chunk of it's profits. As does most the Poser market. DAZ do have the better sales/marketting team and they use this to good effect to convince people to purchase things they have no real need or even desire for. Just how many people purchased the Girl? How many shots do you STILL see being made with her. If there is even 5% of the purchasers submitting renders of the figure to galleries now - I will be incredibly surprised. As mentioned before - this is not DAZ specific, but they are the best at it I know of for Poser content. The kind of behaviour exhibited by the general customer of DAZ IS irrational and does somewhat fit into "cult mindset". As for dismissing claims because someone making them is attached to a competitor of DAZ, that too is irrational behaviour. The claims made are not invalidated by the person making them. Hell, the EULA claims made are validated by both independant lawyers (mine at least) and by DAZ themselves. They have stated quite specifically (in both these forums and on their own) that they reserve the right to make someone take down clothing items derived from their figures if they feel the need to. I personally don't care that you prefer the Unimesh. Hell, if it weren't for the EULA - I would be probably be a frequent user of it (I think the Freak looks awesome & I can see many benefits in a single mesh over a variety of figures). I ask you simply not to discard all people with issues about the EULA due to your feelings towards one of them. I for one don't lump you in with the crazies who support DAZ (yes, there are crazies on both sides). --EK

Doesn't show in the image, but the nipples are off, too.

Eternl_Knight: that "better catsuit" example makes me wonder. If it is derived from the DAZ mesh everything is clear as glass: DAZ has the option to stop the release. But if this better catsuit is modeled from scratch? Joint parameters will look a LOT like the joint parameters of the figure it conforms to - or else it wouldn't conform. Morphs would be unique to the catsuit, made from scratch. Could DAZ still force it off the market? I seriously doubt it. UVmapping is another can of worms. What if that "better catsuit" were UV compatible with the DAZ catsuit? Would it give DAZ a handle if they wanted it off the market? I doubt whether DAZ would have an item pulled, even if they could according to their EULA. You're absolutely right, DAZ is a profit-motivated operation. And they know their customers pretty well, including the probability of loosing customers if they did something that would be perceived as unreasonable. Nevertheless, if they CAN do it, they WILL do it if it is in their own interests. That's business.

Some of you folks make accurate points about what DAZ could do per their EULA if they really, really wanted to, but regardless of whether or not they are nice, just imagine ... Imagine them saying "OK, everyone out of the pool. Everything that is in any way derivative of our proprietary meshes must be removed from distribution whether commercial or free." Thousands of clothing items. It would be commercial suicide. Supporting merchant and customer loyalty would be badly damaged. They know how mob-like the community is. They're reminded frequently. They know how easily offended and incensed we are. It's accurate to say "just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they never will," but only "technically." Cut 'em a little slack for intelligence, if nothing else.

And lest I be accused of worship, lemme just say that I think Unimesh has been overused too. In my opinon the "young teens" and the newer "Millennium children" are too monstrous to be acceptable. They look like reproportioned V3, which I guess it's reasonably accurate to say they are. The original Mil Kids were a bit too cartoony (being V2 derivative,) but I prefer them to the bizarrely un-childlike Unimesh kids, pardon the extreme thread drift. :-)

I like DAZ stuff: and I will therefore buy DAZ stuff. Regardless of implied -- or direct -- insults to those of us who choose to do this.

I don't check with anyone else first in order to find out what they think that I should be buying. I buy as I please. Not as someone else with an agenda thinks that I ought to.

I've never been one to follow along when a shouting man yells instructions at me. In fact, the chances are pretty good that I'll do the exact opposite of whatever it is that he's ordering me to do -- merely on general principles, if for no other reason.

Yes -- Miki shows promise. And why would this be.....? I don't attribute it to any great mystery, or to any sort of 3D technical issues. I'd simply say that it's because Miki is cute. Hey.....I'm tempted to buy her.

What's it going to take for people to figure out that no male figure -- no matter how well-put-together his mesh happens to be -- is ever going to sell with anything like the kinds of numbers that FEMALE "V3-esque" figures will sell?

I don't want Apollo ((and I feel safe in saying that I speak for many, many silent Poser shoppers in this)). However: I would be one of the first in line to purchase 'Venus', if she was ever offered up for sale.

If any merchants out there wish to offer support for figures other than the DAZ icons -- then have at it. It's a free community. No one is stopping you from supporting the figure(s) of your choice. As I see things: the more the merrier.

Just don't be looking to get rich in the process.

If you do it -- then do it as a labor of love. Not because you expect to see spectacular sales results.

Otherwise, you are highly likely to find yourself both bitter and disappointed in the end. This might be a 'free' community. But it isn't usually a kind one.

Re: And lest I be accused of worship, lemme just say that I think Unimesh has been overused too. I have seen so many textureMorphs of V3 that now days they all just blend in.

I haven't bought Apollo. (Yet, anyway.) I don't mind his male-ness. I am more willing to spend in male figures, actually. But honestly, I just don't care for Apollo's looks. I like M3 (except for the shoulders). I love David, body and face. I love James' and Koji's heads, but not their bodies. (Weird proportions.) Apollo just doesn't do it for me. I have seen some nice body morphs, but so far, I've never seen a render of his face that makes me want to buy him. I'm even less interested in Venus, because I have a lot of attractive, versatile female figures already. And V4 is due out any month now.

Agree with Dean about new MilKids (including the baby). I'm rather disappointed with them, though they can be morphed to look decent. I am leaning toward buying the Cubed babies (or at least one of them - I guess I don't need both).

I get tired of the fact that if you want support for another type of figure you are anti-DAZ. Likewise, if you are fatigued or no longer inspired by the unimesh line, you're presumed to be anti-DAZ as well. I like DAZ stuff, but I also like having options...

I have an agenda? ye gods.. 4 cats, 1 dog and now an Agenda. what do I feed it? no. I have no agenda. none at all. please dont' accuse me falsely. if I do have any agenda at all, it's to make models that ppl like and use and to avoid looking like everyone else on my own artwork. (that and the interpretation of the EULA about work from daz models stops me from using them and my innate dislike of seeing things overused ad nausem like the unimesh figures in 99% of poserwork. (don't get me started on how I feel about the galleries and the lack of orginal work there)) so. no agenda here. that understood? I'm debating.

"If you do it -- then do it as a labor of love. Not because you expect to see spectacular sales results." thank you. thats exactly why I do my models. no 'agenda' ... what do I feed one anyway??

If it is derived from the DAZ mesh everything is clear as glass Well, all things considered - it HAS to be derived from the V3 mesh. All clothing is. You need a reference for sizing and proportions and that comes from the mesh somehow (be it a mesh rendered to image planes or simply having the mesh in the editing environment). As such, clothing is ALWAYS a derivative of the mesh, even before joint parameters come into the equation. There really is no way around it either. This is not an issue of copyright, but an issue of EULA. Image planes for clothing creation may be "fair use", but the EULA is alot more restrictive than copyright law. --EK

Khai, as regards my own response to the "agenda" comment, I wasn't thinking of you, but can see why it seemed so, because I then went on to offer my perspective on the DAZ EULA. Sorry if it seemed personal. It's really not.

The poser content market isn't a lot different from any other commercial market. That means to be successful, a figure has to have several ingredients, one of which is support, accessories, call it whatever you like. So, you go to look at the new cars available on the market, and you like the GM Turkey. 'Wow, it's got everything I need! Lots of space, good milage, reliable, looks good. Can I get spares easily?' 'Well, actually, no. Not many garages carry them yet' 'So what if it breaks down? Will they give me money back? A new model?' 'Er... no. That's not in the contract' 'Um.... can I attach a ski-rack to it?' 'Uh... I don't think any one makes them yet...' Right. You get the picture. Poser figures are very rarely rendered completely naked (around these parts anyway). Users want clothes, textures, morphs, shoes, and so on. This is called support, and it's something DAZ gives for every major figure, as part and parcel of the whole deal. And if you don't like the damned thing, you have 30 days to get your money back. Sure, we'd all love to see more figures with lots of support, but it not that easy. I wish it was. competition is great and any attempt to drum it up is laudable. But it's not as simple as saying 'DAZ suck and they're trying to take over the world'. The original post is quite clear about what's needed. If you want support for less-known figures, pledge your financial support for them. Don't waste your time thinking up more tired conspiracy theories about DAZ. It's not in the least bit constructive. mac

Nobody is thinking up "conspiracy theories" (at least not from what I can see). That is the whole point to me joining the discussion. The EULA is in "black & white" (I guess it does depend on you display settings though :P ) and can be read by anyone. I agree that "financial support" is what is required, but so is the need for more open licenses. For example, there is at least one license that forbids "unauthorised enhancements"! --EK

What!!! LMAO

"For example, there is at least one license that forbids "unauthorised enhancements"! " Well, that'c cutting off your nose to spite your face. Which eula has that, BTW? I'd hate to work on something, and then find out I needed approval for it before I could sell it anywhere.

I didn't quite have time to read all of this but I think one reason fo failing support is the catch-22 of need support to get support etc. but another is that to break into the market at a place other than the origin store you are counting on half the sales (give or take) from what I have heard. Sadly, sales drive the market. I know that it takes me about two months of sold work for a product and if I sold 20 copies that would be two months wasted. I could do a half assed thing and get it out but then it would kill the quality name I have been trying to build for years. I know I am kind of slow but I have at least one other job at all times. I am also in debt up to my eyeballs since most of the extra money I make goes to help out my parents. I looked into various other figures. Some were mapped in a way I couldn't do anything with them, some were just not a great seller to begin with but most boiled down to the fact that it wouldn't be a good seller for me since I am having to sell someplace other than the source store.

I do like DAZ items most times. I too HATE the endlessly long pose library. I love Mike 2 and Stephanie. I use them more than anything. I HATE the fact of not as much stuff for them anymore but hey evolution and all :/ my 2 cents ---- hair, shoes, pants for any of the characters. Except for V3 no other chars. anywhere have many practical items liek that :/

I vote for LaRoo and all of the Sixus figures. Also Apollo, Miki and Micky. I have all of the above figures and almost all of the DAZ figures also. Gives me more options.

I have all the Unimesh figures, plus AM, Elle, Koshini, Kiki, Krystal, Rosy Cheeks Lina, Miki, TK 1&2, Koji and all the free ones. I have Poser editions 4-6 so I have all those people, too. I even have the DAZ Nude Young Woman. OK, so I'm an addict. I would love to see and would definitely buy textue sets for Terai Yuki 2 and CONFORMING clothing for her. Except for a few BATLAB updated items (which I have), almost everything I see for TK2 is dynamic. I'm too impatient and don't have enought time (this is my hobby) to wait for dynamic calculations. I used to think I wanted to see more realistic and less "perfect" female characters but I realized I probably wouldn't buy them because I quit collecting Barbie dolls when they changed the doll from the busty, hippy princess to the flatter, fatter, more "normal" version of today. If allowed, new modules for the UTC that would work on Koji, Miki, TK2, AM, RC Lina, the Poser 5 and Poser 6 people would be fantastic!!! That way we would all be able to maximize both the clothing and textures we already have.

"You need a reference for sizing and proportions and that comes from the mesh somehow (be it a mesh rendered to image planes or simply having the mesh in the editing environment). As such, clothing is ALWAYS a derivative of the mesh, even before joint parameters come into the equation."

Just to say something on this... that's not actually true. You can use your own arms or anything really for sizing and proportions. Clothing need not be modelled aorund the mesh (and sometimes it's better if it's not).

Of course, when it does come to the JPs, then... well... those JPs don't have to be derived from the figure, but they have to be derived from something derived form the figure, anyway.

The DAZ EULA thing is a bit goofy and we didn't really want to get into that, lets a whole can of cans of worms be opened up...

...like questions about how, if DAZ allows and encourages derived works provided they do not compete with the thing derived from, why couldn't Sixus have released that figure that took V3 maps? The mapping of the figure wouldn't have been derived from V3 -- that doesn't even really work without some software that hasn't been written yet [Dodger: "I know this, because I have worked out the algorithms to do figure-to-figure UVW projection, but I haven't figured out how to actually make it work yet, and I haven't seen any others else I probably wouldn't have worked it out"]

Exporting the template won't work really well because with the differences in the meshes, those seams won't always match right even if the lines fit pretty well. You can have a weird 'bend' right at the seam if you go about it that way.

Instead, to get the same mapping and make it work, the figure's UVs need to be derived from a TEXTURE. Sixus could have very simply pointed out that their figure's mapping was derived from the V3 Hi-Res textures -- hi res being necessary to ascertain those seams are as perfect as possible along every poly -- and that the use of their figure did not compete with the sales of the V3 hi-res textures, but rather enhanced those sales by making another figure that could wear them. Seeing as it doesn't contain any V3 in it, it shouldn't even be RTEncoded.

There are even worse questions, like if you use a certain mesh for a foot, are you ripping off V3 or The Dork or Don? (Look at the feet really closely). Like we said, that's neither here nor there.

But for making clothing, depending on what it is, sometimes it's better to make it for NO figure, then fit it to the fiture(s) you want to wear it. You know, just like most real clothing that doesn't come directly from a tailor or fashion designer.

In real life clothes aren't usually tailor-made. In poser they are. (And no, we don't mean that they are all crunchy and have weird looking stretched morphs -- not THAT kind of Tailor made). But they don't have to be, and often shouldn't.

Dodger is as guilty of modelling around a figure as the next, he admits it. However, that is changing since modelling things in ZBrush doesn't lend itself to that approach, but is more fun.

Also there are plenty of conversions out there that were not modelled around a Poser figure, or sometimes around any figure at all. Consider a few conversions of Stormtrooper Armour you may have seen around, many of which find their way back to places like scifi3d.theforce.net (you know, that place that insists you pitch their site in your image (rolls eyes) if you use things they didn't make, only host, and have no copyright on the content thereof anyway, since that's George Lucas's) -- modelled not as conformers, but as standalone figures. Those were certainly never meshed around a dummy of the Dork or Mike.

And make no mistake, the original post as NOT meant as DAZbashing. DAZ makes some really nice stuff.

The point is that it isn't the ONLY place that makes really nice stuff.

It's the same sort of argument as the basic idea that America may be a great, pretty much overall generally kinda free and diverse nation, but that doesn't mean that Australia is a fascistic racist dictatorship. (Dodger wants is to clarify that be believes that Australia, his favourite country, is more diverse and freer than the US, because it has tons of elbow room, lest anything be misinterpreted or misconstrued about the above -- Hell, One Nation was dissolved, so that evil dictatorship thing is not even a potential chance.)

Or to put it simpler, lots of people love hamburger meat (mince, ground beef, ground chuck, whatever). Hamburger is cheap. Hamburger Helper comes in boxes. Hamburger Helper has commercials. Hamburger Helper is easy to use to take your ground beef and turn it into a grammar school lunch that your dog won't even want to eat. Ground beef makes hamburgers. It makes Tacos. It makes sloppy joes. It makes Beef Strokin' off. It makes those weird hamburgerdog things at 7-11 with the cheese inside. It makes salivary steaks. It makes meatloaf. It makes meatballs. It makes vegetarians and Ghandi make faces. It's useful, diverse, easy to find, easy to use, easy to eat, and suffuses the western world.

But just because there are all these nice things to say about hamburger doesn't mean lamb chops with a nice cracked pepper cabernet sauce (or perhaps a mild mint jelly glaze), of which all the above CAN'T be said (except the part about vegetarians), aren't really freakin' good.

Damn I want some lamb chops.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 22:19

perhaps a look back into history woulld help. How did DAZ get so big and powerful? They burst throu with Victoria...but they did have an in, as they sprang from Zygote which made the first Poser folks. So they had an in and they exploited a hole in the entire thing. Perhaps they were near the forefront in the Poser aftermarket goods store... Posette wasn't such a great piece of eyecandy at the time with the plastic hair, and the plasticclothes...butr Vic was special...morphs and all that...so they got he upper hand with the new line of stuff for Poser. And we all followed along. Well maybe if the next guy that comes out with a figure can pull in a lot of support up front, with the right people, and markert the entire shebang the right way, just maybe they could pull it off. I would think if you started to see a lot of GREAT stuff for James, for instance, and you got the right people to do images witth the stuff, eventually people would start to take notice, and sales would increase. I think there is more interest in alternative figures right now than I have seen for quite some time. Now is the right time to take advantage of this...

So, for instance, if we wanted to make a new human figure and garner support dfor it, we'd have to make the Poser 7 figures?

I think you misunderstood what I was talking about, XFX (Dodger, whoever). If you want the clothes to fit the figure IN POSER - you need to use the mesh at somepoint to match "orientation". Unlike real clothes, 3D meshes are not easily folded up, stretched over one's head, etc. To make that nice jumper fit onto V3 - you need to not only get the size about right, but the orientation of her arms, the amount her breasts poke out, etc. The only way around this is by making the clothing dynamic and having the user pose the figure to fit the clothing before starting the simulation (which sorta works, but is incredibly limited). As for Sixus1 Media: DAZ were not up in arms because Lilin 2 could use V3 textures. Hell, if I recall correctly - she didn't. Their problem was that she had similar proportions and the same joint parameters. Casting aside the question of copyrightable joint parameters, the EULA states that they do not allow any similar figures to be created using V3 as a base. Having installed V3, Sixus1 Media had agreed to this (click-thru EULA's... gotta love'em) and hence DAZ had a handle, which they promptly used. As for the UV Mapping idea: I've already worked on two applications that can do this (one stand-alone, the other a plugin in a host application). The problem with copying UV's from one mesh to another is that it still requires the original mesh as a base to work from. If the base mesh is a DAZ one - the user has agreed to the EULA. And they then can stop it from being released. One has to remember the problem is not "copyright" (where "fair use", required compatibility, etc come in), but the EULA. Like it or not, it gives DAZ the right to can anything that has come into contact with their figures in some way. Hell, if you created the jumper by yourself, with completely new JP's, etc but made tweaks after having TESTED it on a DAZ figure - you have just created a derivative that they have veto rights on. They may not choose to exercise these rights (and for most clothing, most likely won't) but the right still exists. The idea of using a texture as a basis for uv-mapping is not a new one, but outside the Poser market is usually discarded due to cost/benefit being out of whack. Any skilled uv-mapper can use a texture or seam-map to align the uv's in the correct spots. With the tools available now in stand-alone & integrated UV Mappers, it is also not that terribly hard (time-consuming, very. Hard, not really). However - outside the Poser market, most artists create their own textures for the models. The uv map tends to be laid out the way it is for a reason and copying another one is quite likely more time-consuming than it would be to paint a new one. Comes from the general tendancy in studios I have worked in to "recreate" models & textures as needed (sure they use a common base mesh, but you'd be surprised at how often they create a new figure only slightly different from the last one!). --EK

Quality and versitility make me buy, not cheap price. The ability to make a product different than everybody else that bought the same product, good UV layout and easy to texture is a HUGE deal, similarly lots of morphs and/or bodyhandles. What figures... ApolloMax. Would like to see: Swat outfit like BillyT's. Everyday scifi and fantasy stuff, SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis. Morphing trenchcoat (see Devil May Cry PS2 game for example). FireFly outfits, work for everyday and scifi. Jedi like stuff, space suits, Matrix stuff (outfit like the Twins from reloaded!) AND the Zion outfits. Uzilite/Wusamah like outfits, high fashion but with morphs included. Zombie set with different textures for different ooze and scaring (hate having my renders look like everybody elses cause they have the same textures). Poser 6 High Res Jessi. All of the morphs sets are for lower res Jessi which kills me, love the body morphs styles but want the high res head morphs (which don't seem to be available. Female clothing that has NOT been done before but similar to the list above for ApolloMax wish list. I don't buy from RMP for various reasons but mainly it's too damn hard to find the gem in all the crap. RMP doesn't have a ApolloMax Clothing section or didn't. When I bought at Daz (I don't any longer), I bought because Daz3d.com has simple search that works, newsletters that have that week's items clearly and easly to see and a front page that screams buy me buy me which got me to impulse buy. 7-8 (sometimes more)products a week the good and bad of that is that it's easy to SEE what's new and impluse buy. No site has that impulse buy that got so much of my money back in the day. I don't buy from PoserPro's because it's just money in Daz's pocket so what's the point. I don't buy from animotions/renderotica cause it's just RMP rehash and hard to navigate. 3DCommune? Alexa fiasco, no trust. I buy direct as much as possible but at 2 weeks to a month per product release at direct sites I may or may not like a product for my needs and buy less, and impule buy even lesser. I don't render naked males, and Anton is only one person to make mix n match high quality products. Male figures don't do as well as the female figures. Only Jessi is in my runtime currently and there is very little to buy. my 2 cents on it all. I have a lot more opinions on the subject but that's enough of a rant from me.

MachineClaw .. So .. if we did do something for Apollo you wouldn't buy it is what you are saying? Since you don't buy from any of the sites out there it really limits things :)

Private sites yet. I have bought from RawnArt's site and PhilC's site for example. I buy at RuntimeDNA however it's so much Aiko now and less and less ApolloMax. What I'm saying is that for my needs is that if a product is so stylized that everybody will recognize it in a render I do "Latest Poser sighting!..." I will be liess likely to buy it now. Unless I can my the product my own in some way. example I rarely buy textures now because so many people have a subscrption to www.3d.sk that the textures look like everybody elses. The Old man textures for poser figures all seem to be from 1 reference set of photos available on 3d.sk. If that makes sence. more and more as time has gone on there is less and less diversity in poser renders because of the conform and render. I know that is a over simplification. When I got into Poser I was into it and impulse bought and spent tons of money. my goal has always been to do my own art, in my style. I am learning more and using more Corel Painter 9 and trying to paint clothing. So now my spending on poser items tends more and more to be items and products that let me get a good starting point and then do "my art". this is not the norm for most poser customers. I hope that makes some sence. I buy and I try my best to support merchants the best I can and do less and less of the impulse hype buying I used to do. I've watched the merchants, stores, and market place, and as time goes on want less and less to do with the poser market place. Particularly due to the some of the same things found in Post #1. I also do not like 50% of my money going to a site and not the merchant. I dont think I'm expressing it well in text. I will buy, but I'm not gunna buy just cause something is made for a poser figure. I will buy based on my needs and if it fits my style....regardless of price, unlike the horde that wants free and dirt cheap items.

RuntimeDNA is also a closed site so not many people can sell there. That is part of my frustration I have had with Apollo. I think I could do something to give him a wider audience but I can't sell him anywhere. I don't really want to make my own site and have to try to add another layer of chaos onto my life. I just try to make quality products that I want to use as well. Sometimes that can be hard.

I'm kind of shocked that this thread is still on topic and nor antiDAZ nor witnessofDAZ has converted it in a war zone. Congrats people! I have buyed almost all poser figures available since V1 but I now use almost only Miki, James and Apollo. Miki is very versatile and has a more girl-next-door-kind-of-body. James, damn, he looks so real in almost every render! And I buy Apollo because of his technology, he is so advanced! Finally as mentioned before if Anton would have released a Venus instead of an Apollo he would be rich buy now. I think right move was to release Venus first and then Apollo.

I think right move was to release Venus first and then Apollo.

Yep.

BTW - I would submit that esoteric discussions revolving around the detailed intricacies of EULA's are of real interest to only a select few. You'll never sell a product to most Joe Blows by saying: "Look at my neat EULA........!" An over-restrictive EULA might kill a product. But the first thing that a potential Poser buyer looks at ain't in the fine print.

The First Thing is the face & the form in the promo images. All of the rest is usually window dressing -- for most buyers.

The majority of Poser users want to render purty pictures -- usually with purty ladies featured prominently front & center in the picture. An intelligent merchant will recognize this natural tendency: and will wisely admit to the fact that it exists -- and will then exploit it for personal gain.

The wise merchant won't engage in attempting to stop the ocean from flowing exactly where it wants to flow. Rather, the wise merchant will note where the flow is going, and then go along with the tide.

If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want. Not what YOU happen to want for them to want. Or what you think that they should want. You must cater to the tastes of the majority of the public. Not to your own tastes, whatever those happen to be. Feed the animals with their natural food. You'll attract them that way.

On the other hand -- attempt to force the issue into some other mold of your own creation: and then you will merely be practicing the art of banging your head repeatedly against an immovable brick wall. Such behavior won't lead to any other result than pain.

Scolding people because they are obsessed with things other than what YOU happen to think that they should be obsessed with -- will go over with the general public just like the proverbial lead ballon. People's tastes are what they are. And you can't change them. You'll either choose to admit to these facts -- and exploit them to your own marketing advantage; or else you'll continue to try to force-feed people with things that they don't want.

It's been tried before. It didn't work then, and it won't work the next time that it's tried, either.

People always break into threads like this one, insisting that they never use DAZ figures. shrug That's their choice. More power to 'em.

But the fact remains that V3 -- and character packages/clothing/hair/what-have-you created expressly for V3 outsells all of the rest combined.

Until such time as someone else comes along, and out-V3's V3 (Venus, anyone?) -- we'll eagerly await the arrival of V4.

As mentioned earlier -- everyone is welcome to follow after their own tastes as they create their excellent products. It's a free road. But in such a case -- do it for the love of what you do. Not in an attempt to make everyone else over into your own image. They won't go along. And you won't sell much of anything to them. Message edited on: 02/08/2006 01:26

Well said Xeno. And another thought... why the hell do we need 1400 female figures? Rather then fight the current why not go with the flow, and improve upon what is already out there? You want PAs or content creators to support them give them a copy. Encourage them to support the character. Add on content does MUCH better when at the "home" site. Anton's biggest mistake, was probably falling out with Daz. Had AM been sold at Daz, his spport would most likely be much greater then it is. Also, many PAs work together sharing products, and getting involved in developement. If I need an accessory set for something I'm working on that supports that creator, typically I can get a free copy to encourage developement. I do the same, sharing my product with other developers, to encourage developement and acceptance of my products as well. And in a lot of cases, seing a product in developement allows others to see issues you don't see during developement. or to see additional potential you hadn't thought of yourself. If I created something for AM, I couldn't sell it at RDNA anyway, because they are an invitation only store, and in some cases, that just makes it not worth a creator's time and effort. Anton also was crowing he'd sold over 1000 copies of AM.. I've never sold anywhere near that number of anything, and would be delighted by sales numbers like that! (Especially for the pricepoint!) I'd think that successful number would have locked in Venus developement for sure. Also, your public rep is really important. Slamming other companies, and other vendors because you either dislike them, or feel they have an unfair advantage in competition makes you look petty, and is a turnoff to customers. There are quite a number of creators many people won't buy from simply because of attitude and the way they conduct themselves publically. You can't just play nice for a month, and then go back to your old habits. When you get banned from a number of sites for misconduct, everyone sees and remembers that, regardless of your current nickname.

RE: RuntimeDNA is also a closed site so not many people can sell there. That is part of my frustration I have had with Apollo. I think I could do something to give him a wider audience but I can't sell him anywhere. I don't really want to make my own site and have to try to add another layer of chaos onto my life. I just try to make quality products that I want to use as well. Sometimes that can be hard. Have you ever tired joining in with another merchant that already has hisher own site?? RA has a site and sells some things for ApolloMax there. Possibly lnk up with RA as Kamilche did with PhilC???? Just a thought here. DR

I think I could do something to give him a wider audience but I can't sell him anywhere. Why not? I don't think Apollo products have to be sold at RDNA?

XENOPHONZ: If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want. I think it would be better to say if you wish to maximize your potential income you should follow the trends. You can sell things without ever being "profitable"... that is to say the amount of time spent is not compensated to your satisfaction. I believe it is possible to be profitable without following the trends but your profit margin will be much lower. and you can do it just because you enjoy it. >Gareee: Anton also was crowing he'd sold over 1000 copies of AM... I'd think that successful number would have locked in Venus development for sure. 1000 does sound like a lot...but then how much time did Anton spend making Apollo? I'm sure Anton knows a female character would be more popular but I suspect (and this is purely speculation on my part) that he made Apollo to "work out he bugs" so Venus would be even better. Id love to use other characters more often but I'm trying to make a comic, I need characters with more than 3 appropriate outfits. Ill use the other figures when I can, but they just dont have enough clothing to be functional as a main character.

My opinion: forget the useless and time wasting "crusades" in support of, OR in opposition to any particular iteration of poser figure. i admit that i was a bit Aggressive in my defense of the venerable Mike2 in recent months. but i realized now that there are WAAAYYY better things to do with my precious time besides endlessly debating this subject of " why v3,Daz etc. etc. etc. Just use poser/3D programs to express your ideas pick the figures you like accept their limitaions honestly and live with them or find way to overcome them( wardobe wizard etc.). and make some images/Art. Or spend endless hours,days & weeks trying to alter the poser content market and force other people to provide you with your PERFECT figure.clothing,texture, hair,render engine solution , so you can finally create your ultimate picture /animation Frankly To assert our creativity is somehow restricted because no one has created some "holy grail" poser figure with the elusive perfectly bending elbow to "defeat" V3/DAZ etc., is just a poor excuse for not being a creative artist IMHO. So i dont really accept the premise of the orginal question here: "{ what would it take to break the so called DAZ monopoly etc.}" I humbly suggest that your artistic endeavours should not depend on who is supporting what figure. >>>returning to lurk mode<<<

I pre-ordered Poser 6 and I would be willing to do the same with a "Venus", if that's what it will take to see her come to fruition. I know of more than one merchant lately that has posted some concept renders to attempt to gauge the market for the product interest. Maybe potential buyers would like to see more?? Cheers DR

Well said, Wolf.

So, for instance, if we wanted to make a new human figure and garner support dfor it, we'd have to make the Poser 7 figures?

That's an idea. Seriously. Especially if Poser 7 and D|S part ways with different weight-based rigging systems. DAZ is not doing a particularly good job of supporting Poser 5 and 6, and I doubt they'll support Poser 7 any better.

If you can't make the Poser 7 figures, perhaps the Zygote open source figures would be good ones to support. DAZ is giving away V3, M3, and Aiko, after all. And part of the appeal of the DAZ figures is all the freebies they have. When the competition is free, cheap may not cut it. At least at first.

I know of more than one merchant lately that has posted some concept renders to attempt to gauge the market for the product interest.
Maybe potential buyers would like to see more??

I'm sure they would, but I have serious doubts about that being an accurate gauge of customer interest. People often say they would buy something, then don't. Even with concept renders.

The first issue with characters is price. A free figure will always beat the price of a for-sale character. Period. End of story. You will not sell a $19.99 figure when V3 and M3 are free. it is a mindless cult. you see Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things. How many times has DAZ released a model that is the same (or very similar) to an existing product... but theirs has less features and is more expensive? Yet which product do people buy? Yep- the DAZ one... usually because the name "DAZ" implies that the product will be excellent. If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want This is a subject for a different thread. What do people want? If you go by the list of best-selling products, people obviously want V3 characters. If you go by the "wishlist", people want all kinds of items... but will those "wishers" actually purchase the item when you sell it? --John

This thread isn't about Anton. The question was what figure to support that is not a Daz figure.

Re:The question was what figure to support that is not a Daz figure. Miki Why, Female, Ethnic Features for real, already gaining some support. DR