Dear All, I had the luck to be one of the first users downloading the Adobe Atmosphere public beta version on monday 26th march. Beeing a Poser and Metastream user from the first hours, it was easy for me to evaluate the enormous potential of Atmosphere. I am familiar with the challenging 3D streaming technologies like Pulse3D, Cult3D, Shout3D, b3d, Kaon, Mendel3D, SuperScape and the recently announced Macromedia 3D flash player. I know also most existing 3D virtual world technologies based on VRML and proprietary formats like Activeworlds, VirtualWorlds (blaxxun3d), Flatland (Rover), CryoNetworks (SCOL), Morfit, WorldsPlayer and so on. I think that the combination of the outstanding features of Poser ProPack and Viewpoint with the addon's of Atmosphere's interactivity, communication, radiosity and community services makes the difference with the other solutions. Believing that Atmosphere has the chance to become a new defacto standard for interactive 3D worlds for the large public, I would like to launch a discussion about the following three points: 1) 3D skills 3D has been merely an art until now. Creating, texturing, posing and animating models using standard applications was the main task and required a lot of experience and artistic talent. The future of 3D is interactive 3D on the web, and interactivity means programming. The knowledge of programming skills becomes more and more important. The integration of Python in the Poser ProPack is an example. What does this mean for the Poser community ? Will 3D imagery art for purely graphical purposes continue to expand ? Are 3D artists forced to learn a programming language ? Is it possible to keep both skills in the same Poser community ? What's your opinion about this subject ? 2) low polygon and texture resolution Actually the performance of the midrange computers and the bandwidth of the common Internet access does not allow to use high polygon and high texture resolutions for 3D objects, especially for animated avatars, in interactive 3D worlds on the web. It's necessary to create low polygon models with no or low resolution textures as they are commonly used in the computer and console game industry. The new figures Barney, Bertha, Edgar, Ginger, Gramps, Mick and Minnie, integrated in the Poser ProPack, are an example. What does this mean for the Poser community ? Should Poser artists develop besides the actual high resolution models and textures low resolution versions ? Is a cooperation with computer game communities useful ? Is there a need for efficient polygon reduction tools (I know about ten different polygon decimation tools, but no one keeps the vertex order when reducing the polygon size of morphs of the same model) ? Your suggestions are welcome ! 3) copyright and intellectual property Actually, an 3D artist grants the right to publish 2D rendered images to a user by selling or by offering his 3D models or textures for free. In interactive 3D worlds, the models and textures are published as instances of the originals. What does this mean for the Poser community ? Do we need special rules and agreements for publishing 3D content on the web ? Are the right management tools implemented in the 3D streaming technologies sufficient secure to avoid a capture of 3D models and textures from the web and to prevent from reimporting them in a 3D modeling application ? I would like to get your advise ! I look forward for your comments, sincerely yours, Marco BARNIG, Luxembourg, telecommunications manager, 3D hobby animation engineer

1. Wow, you have more experience at web3D then I do. I program VRML since 1997 and almost abandoned it some times. the noplugin tech like shout3d is cool but limited in advanced features in VRML, which had no much auccess. Art and program si two different , lef brain, right brain. only genious can handle bothways. 2.still low-poly is the answer for temp. exporting Vicky is too huge, not to mention animating her. 3.that's a tough issue nomatter how you keep copy right info visible.

I want no part of interactive 3-D virtual reality stuff until they figure out a way to make it virtually real. Until then, I just don 't see the boon. Of course, these introductory stages are necessary to get there, but as far as the masses go..I believe it's big yawns abroad. In fact, really, I think this field is the wrong approach. Brainwave stimulation is where it's at, and most likely won't require huge bandwidth to transmit signals across the net necessary to submerge the mind in a different reality. Has anyone seen the movie "Strange Days"? -Darth_Logice

I think this is an area that needs its own forum. Based upon the large amount of interest that the Adobe Atmosphere forum has generated just since Monday is pretty impressive... Because you have already a fairly "long" history (by internet standards) of VRML to now, and with Adobe, Macromedia and Viewpoint making major plays- with BIG clients like SONY, Nike and Eddie Bauer already committing to it- seems like we need a forum to discuss the software, the business aspects, the legal aspects, etc... Also for Renderosity- this has some future ramifications too. They might want to consider having an active Renderosity World so that people can show their characters, ideas, etc...

WELL... There was a virtually unused MetaStream forum here, and this is based on the MetaStream technology - admins, isn't a re-name and resurrection of the MetaStream forum in order?

Attached Link: http://www.kreative.net/hbg/renderosity/CopyrightFAQ.htm

I wouldn't limit this to MetaStream (which I don't think you intended) because MetaStream is Viewpoint now, and more importantly I think, the ultimate Winner of this game could still be someone else, like 3D Flash from Macromedia. If TGS's ZAP Player was developed more (or purchased/better funded) it could be a real player too... As some of the people on the Adobe Forum pointed out, Adobe isn't great at developing promising new software, despite being a big company- they can be pretty stupid. I am also surprised that they or Microsoft didn't buy 3D Explorer. Those guys had some truely amazing 3D technology that is highly useful. Maybe Right Hemisphere will come up with something. A lot of very innovative new 3D software is coming out of Australia and New Zealand these days... Also, like them or not, don't forget Microsoft. When Bill Gates smells a big new market brewing, you can be sure he will be there...

Adobe however has deep pockets, and tends to be taken seriously in production commercial shops. Managers will take a risk on Adobe when they won't touch other name brands, since no one ever lost their job for spending budget on Adobe. If the product sucks, they merely say, "how was I to know it was a dud? It was ADOBE after all..." In the end, just like with Microsoft, when it comes to anything graphical, what Adobe wants us to use, we will use.

I use a number of Adobe products, and have since the very earliest days, but they were NEVER an innovative company, despite the two founders coming from Xerox Parc labs, which was another Huge Company with great in-house technology and absolutely stupid about how to market it... I won't go into each of the Adobe products, but they have been out-classed in most cases by smaller, newer, more innovative companies. Sure, many people buy Adobe products, but there are much better ones, often cheaper, for those who really care about cutting edge. The internet moves too fast for a plodding company like Adobe. (PDF is a slow, fat hog- XML and other newer technologies are beating the crap out of it).. All they are doing now with Atmosphere is VALIDATING that such a market really exists. Most of Adobe's people are still living in their glory days of Macintosh Postscript and are dyed-in-the-wool Mac-heads. The fact that this software is Windows only, from an Outside Developer, is never a good sign as far as Adobe's lumbering internal political scene is concerned...

All of Adobe's products are from outside developers and have been for years. It is just not terribly touted about. Whether Adobe is the end all be all of innovation is not what causes them to win at the game. It is the fact that they have the money to stand their ground, just like Microsoft, and stand it till they beat out their competitors, or buy out their competitors, through a war of attrition. Also, as mentioned, it is that Adobe has gained a name as a product like that professional shops feel they can trust in and will approve purchases on.

I will agree with you there. Brand marketing always seems to work as people will mostly buy what they trust and are familiar with... But as far as the 3D Worlds game is concerned, it is at least a year away before anyone can see a clear winner (if ever). Microsoft continues to battle it out with Real over sound and video formats. Obviously they have, at this point anyway, won the browser war as 90% of all surfers use IE. So it would seem to me that they (Microsoft) would see this Atmosphere Browser as a real threat and would want to make make it part of IE- actually that's the way VET (Viewpoint) works now... So the end game really is that Adobe Atmosphere will be a new 3D Tool but will support whatever 3D formats emerge, be they VET, ZAP or 3DFlash, which will run as part of Internet Explorer 6, 6.5, etc... So too, a new Renderosity Forum should probably be called "3D Worlds" as there will be a number of different ways to make and display them...

We have been discussing a new forum for Atmosphere and 3d Worlds today as a matter of fact amidst the moderators. I believe the thing here is the question of if there are enough of us here who would use and participate in a forum of this nature :) I believe there are enough of us that I would certainly be willing to take the time and effort needed to moderate such a forum and build it up.

You got it! Let RCook know. Only problem is going to be making it clear that 3D Worlds and World Builder are two separate concepts... My main concern is that a 3D Worlds Forum not be just about Viewpoint's format or Adobe's software. It should be open-minded as I would expect to see a number of companies jumping into this, including all the ex-VRML and 3D World software companies that have already been doing this for a few years- like Digital Space and others... This is a subject that will range from chat Avatars to the best way to display a hi-rez textured product for sale. It's a BIG subject actually, and potentially very SEXY. I mean that both as a next-generation web browsing concept, as well as, frankly- I think the PORN industry would really get hot under their collars about this. High Rez photo-realistic 3D Babes are SURE to get a LOT of interest. Got yer BIG servers and T3 lines ready?...

Interactive web-based 3D will be viable when monthly fees for cable & DSL reach the magic number of $19.99 per month, and perhaps only in some "game" type application. As for product display or showcasing "stuff" for consumers, well "that dog don't hunt" either. All the dot-commers found out you can't make money on the web.

Actually Willf, that isn't really true. I know people making a nice, legal (and non-porno) living selling art, antiques, crafts, import items, etc. on the internet and doing very well... I think the whole "Dot Com" thing became a Bust, especially as far as the Media is concerned, because it rose to such totally unrealistic heights, with websites run by people who really didn't know what they were doing... The fact is, for people marketing nice stuff with a reasonable small business overhead, they are making MORE money than ever before. The problem really is greedy people with stupid ideas- who lose their ass (and deserve to). Using the right new technology to sell items that reasonable people really want is still a winner. The people who blew huge budgets on expensive TV commercials, huge expensive office space and spending on lavish office toys and parties where the Dot Com loosers- and they DESERVED it. The reasonable Dot Com people are doing just fine...

Hi, marcob - and hi, all 2 cents' worth (anyone know the origin of that phrase, BTW?) 3D skills : film, game and commercials producers often say that they prefer to hire artistic types and teach them the programming they need than vice versa. They also say that cinematic skills are more important than actual 3D app knowhow. Over time, computers tend to transfer all the "donkey work" of any activity to the machine, leaving to us the essentially human skills of figuring things out, getting ideas, and choosing between alternate possibilities. Doesn't matter if we're talking about making pictures or making programs - anything that can be automated will be automated, making the "craft skills" redundant. My advice would be to see tools as just that : tools (be it programming or 3D apps) and focus more on ideas and content. Polys and tex'es : bandwith, and the price of it, seems to follow Moore's law as closely as hardware and software does. But as long as internet surfing is harder and less interesting than watching TV, the masses will stay away. Without interesting content and an easy-to-learn, user-friendly interface, no amount of 3D flimflam will keep them on your site. If your flimflam is low-poly and small-tex it may load fast enough to keep them away from the "back" button, but if you have nothing worthwhile to offer, they'll never be back once they're gone. My advice : concentrate on content and user-friendliness. If VRML, streaming and all the rest improve those qualities, fine, if not - you're wasting your time. Copyright : anything that can be pirated will be pirated. Warez will be warez. Putting only rendered images and animations on the net keeps it impossible to capture the 3D models "behind" them. That's the only way to keep them secure (and the dedicated hacker may yet invade your machine via the net....!) My advice : if you don't want to lose it, don't use it. But if you're real good at getting and realizing new ideas, you can rest assured that whatever they steal today, you can do better tomorrow. In conclusion, I think that new technologies, no matter how fascinating, are largely irrelevant to the issue of whether or not people and communities like R'osity will survive. The "right stuff" is creativity, so my advice would be to cultivate that, and let technical savvy stay a "support function". Technology can make creativity more productive, that's all. And I'm not against technology (heck, I'm a mainframe systems programmer by trade, and I spend most of my spare time fooling around with my PC). I'm just against thinking that technology itself will make or break anything. Cheers, thip

{All the dot-commers found out you can't make money on the web. } Being on the inside of a .com, I have to say you're wrong. The .com collapse right now is due ENTIRELY to Wall Street idiocy. A few years ago they went ape$**t over ANYTHING related to the Internet, overinvesting in STUPID ideas and companies that could not see profit for the first 2-5 years of their existence by virtue of their business models alone(Amazon.com finally turned a VERY small profit last year, IIRC). Then, when those companies failed to make them millionaires within 18 months, they pulled out showing as much stupidity as their initial investing had displayed. The market should have hit around 8000 now and be SLOWLY growing. Instead, it got around 12K two years ago, and now is plummeting; it will probably drop to around 6K before it recovers, all due to short-sightedness and greed.

I have worked in the dotcom business now for years, and Charlie is 100 percent correct, from my experience.

Thank you all for the impressive contributions regarding Adobe Atmosphere. I appreciate the idea to set up a 3D world forum. I fully agree with thip's comments and advices. Lets make content ! Marco Barnig, Luxembourg