Been attempting to complete some work in Carrara 5, with my just-installed 5.0.5 upgrade. Before I post a long bug list to Eovia I want to make sure these aren't just me being stupid (and not really flaws in the program at all). Vertex Modeler: Marquee and Lasso selection tools not selectable at all. Deleting an unrelated polymesh can erase group information (i.e. named polygons) from another polymesh. Keyboard delete key works inconsistently; sometimes deleting, sometimes cutting, sometimes doing nothing at all. Even using nothing but camera controls (option, control-option, command-option), the camera goes into that non-euclidean space thing and has to be restored to default. The vertex modeler is incredibly slow...slower than it has been for several whole-number program versions. Turning just an imported Poser head (Aiko3's head, in fact) would cause the screen to freeze for up to twenty seconds. Lathing a simple polyline made a mesh with overlapping and unwelded edges in the middle of the mesh (not just the original polyline -- I'm used to that). Display inconsistency when switching SubD smoothing on and off -- sometimes it would stay in smoothed mode, sometimes not. Obtrusive (and incorrect) error messages while editing a polymesh -- whereas in version 3 or 4 I could duplicate an edge, connect it in then fill the new polygons, in 5 I could only use tool or key command (depending on the operation), and was constantly having to click through error messages. This went on even after I emptied the original polymesh so I was working only with verts and lines. Tools often took more than one click to select. Particles: First, kudos for making particles that have collision, respond to scene forces, and have a metaball mode. Particles "leak." As an experiment made several vertex-modeled bowls. In every test a significant number of particles would fall through the sides and bottom. Setting surface accuracy to "high" did not help, nor did increasing the particle size or the tightness of the mesh. There doesn't seem to be a way to save a particle run. Even rendering a scene that has already had particles generated, generates particles from scratch. Saving the entire particle animation (as physics are saved) would be a wonderful thing. Texturing: When setting index of refraction from pop-up list, the box value doesn't change. As soon as fresnel term has been invoked for transparency it becomes impossible to make either preview or a rendered object transparent -- no matter what settings are used. Indeed, adjusting the settings seems to create bright lights on the surface, not transparency at all. It doesn't help that the meaning of the numbers is inadequately documented. UVmapper: Window does not remember previous size or settings. All in all, I found 5.0.5, as compared with 4, incredibly slow, frequently stalling completely, many of the functions that had worked before now working inconsistently, and several things didn't work at all. I am strongly considering deleting it and re-installing version 4.

First question to ask is which system you are on? I am using Windows and I can not remember any problem item in you list that relates to the current update version of C5. I find the speed of C5 much, much better thn C4 also. Did you look at the pdfs of the updates? Are they listed as having been corrected? If so, reinstalling the updates may clear up your problems. Hope this of some help.

Sorry I have not enough time to spare to check all, but the marquee works perfectly for me.

I haven't tried a clean install yet. I also am looking to see if upgrading my OS might help -- could be they've optimized for Tiger and made it thus less than optimal on previous versions of OSX. Didn't note above that even rendering seems slow. The entire program seems logy now. But it makes sense to hold off until I've at least tried a re-install.

I know this may be obvious, but, after you reinstall Carrara 5 you need to follow it with an intstallation of the 5.0.5 update. It does not follow that if you have just purchased C5 that it is the 5.0.5 version!

I'm still having problems with the particles "leaking"

Clean install on a scrubbed disc (deleted the previous version before I installed, too). Installed 5.0.5 update before running it. Selection is basically "stuck." Defaults to grabbing the first thing selected. If I hold down either the brush selector or the lasso selector OR the marquee selector (for a while!), changes behavior to be more like a brush. The lasso does make nifty little shapes if started off the object, but once the cursor is inside it simply selects whatever face or line I pass over. The only way out of this mode is to switch to rotate, scale, or another mode, then switch back. There is a "stutter" and a slight delay during this. This alone makes the software extremely difficult to use. If nothing else, is is no longer possible to marquee around several closely-set vertices to weld them together. The brush selection is nice to have but it seems a terrible waste to have four ways to get at the same behavior and a long work-around to get out of it. Delete key is actually starting to make sense. It acts like the cut tool when used on a vertex or line (that is, the geometry is reconstructed around the gap). It deletes an entire object if that is selected. On a filled poly it does nothing at all. Selecting "Cut" from the menu operates the way delete used to.....after a very long pause. Still, I'd call this a feature, not a bug. On editing chores I was unable to generate the error boxes, although I did find inconsistency on whether the control-key sequence for link would work or fail (had to use the buttons to select the link tool several times to sucessfully link two verts.) The polygon name bug definitely there after re-install. I created a cube and a sphere from the drop-down. Selected each in turn and did "Name polygons." After checking to see that they were selectable by name, deleted the cube. Now it is no longer possible to select by polygon; there are no named groups any more (the sphere group is now nameless again). Created a cube and one step at a time smoothed and converted. At 6144 polys Carrara got rather slow. This is within bounds of reason. At the next 2x multiplier delays of up to ten seconds were encountered on simple commands such as "select all." Also made some attempts to understand fresnel term; so far, I can not find it ever acting to change a material on angle with the camera. At least, not as much as can be seen on a test sphere. In general the fresnel term for reflection was similar to "how much reflection" only it tended to be more like "make the reflection brighter over the whole object." And again, with a fresnel term in transparency, transparency could not be achieved. Oh, and although the index of refraction box value never changed, it is obvious the drop-down does change the value. This is a pity, because actual fresnel behavior is so key in getting glass, water, many reflective objects looking correctly (our own Moon shows a marked edge lightening effect during full moon as a result of shadow-hiding). As far as five days of working with water renders can show, though, the new Carrara fresnel functions do not do this usefully on a Mac install. All in all, my particular install of the C 5.0.5 pro, on OS 10.2.8, acts a lot more like a beta than like a properly patched program. Color me still strongly tempted to re-install Carrara 4 so I can get some actual work done.

Reading through the Eovia forums, it seems the restriction on certain modeling techniques was intentional. Eovia has decided to no longer allow new polylines to be added to a polymesh. You can only add lines, weld, and so forth in so much as you never create a void or unfilled polygon in the process. So call this a feature, not a bug.

I would have to agree with you about Fresnel. The Carrara version may be an accurate physical version, I don't know. However, Shader Ops "Fake Fresnel" is very capable of achieving the effects that most artists are after. It has complete control over falloff and strength of transparency and reflections. This enables the artist to achieve the look and feel required even if it isn't "real world" accurate.

Honestly, I think ss shaders has a great fresnel.This pack is a great buy for all it does.

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 00:29

Yah...I've used the fake fresnel in Shader Ops several times to good effect. It's quite easy to understand and apply in controlled fashion. A problem with the way Carrara has set things up in v5 is that once you allow refraction (pretty much necessary to get good transparent objects!) you no longer have the option to ignore the fresnel term setting. I haven't figured out a work-around for this yet.

Tried once more, working on a model started in Carrara4. With the first change I made of any kind (no matter how trivial) the entire UVmap was scrambled. Tried to select just one sleeve of a jacket, and since no combination of selection tools would allow me to smoothly add to a selection (the old "hold down shift and marquee again" didn't work, of course) I had to hand-painted every single poly in my selecting. Detached polygons, started to drag....and Carrara locked up. So I did what I should have done Monday. I put Carrara5 away and re-installed 4. I miss the edge tools and the hotkey camera controls but this is simply too frustrating to try to model with.

You can cut and paste from another channel to get rid of the Fresnel. They should give that option.

Some of your slow-downs might be related to the OS - current MacOSX is 10.4.5. There have been significant changes since 10.2.

To get rid of Fresnel channel: right-click (or option-click) and you'll be presented with the full shader menu, where you can choose none or value, etc.

I believe the boxed figure in the refraction menu is solely to enter your own value, not to reflect the menu; choosing from the menu makes the box irrelevant. Mind you, I think that's true.

"To get rid of Fresnel channel: right-click (or option-click) and you'll be presented with the full shader menu, where you can choose none or value, etc." I did not know that. Thanks

Fresnel channel option-click was one of the things I discovered by not reading the manual for a while ;)

BTW, when the production frame goes non-Euclidean, try resetProdFrame plug-in from Associatedfx. It's a free extension, and they've got some other useful ones.

Fresnel channel option click does not work on Mac. I can cut the entire transparency channel (aka revert to "None") with this -- but the ordinary selection offers the same options. If transparency is selected and there is a non-zero value in refraction channel, the fresnel term will also be called. Force drop, on the other hand -- good suggestion Patrick! -- does allow a single value to be placed in the channel even when refraction was present. Spent a while working with combinations of transparency value, fresnel term, refraction value or index. After 52 test renders did manage to get one in which the edge of my test sphere was visibly less transparent than the center. So it is do-able. If I had more reason I'd try the series again in a longer, more methodical exploration.

I'd like to take a moment to confirm; to see which are bugs I am facing on my particular system and which are designed features. The restrictions in making new geometry I understand. Those are a feature. Inconsistent in application but still a feature. The trashing of the UVmap.... is this now standard behavior? What I mean is this; take a cylinder that was mapped flattened, with a single seam. If any work at all is done on the mesh, Carrara re-knits the seam, juggling several vertices on either side of the seam in the process of getting them re-connected. The loss of all named groups of polygons (as used, for instance, in Poser group names) when any named objects are deleted in the Vertex Room? I am having a hard time imagining this is a feature, but has anyone else encountered this bug? The two above are the main reasons I dare not open any of my old models within Carrara5. Selection: it is possible to draw a marquee around a selection in the center of a mesh? The only way I have found to make a selection in the center of a mesh is by painting the selection poly by poly (or line by line et al). Of course Loop and Ring and Expand and so forth do help. But I miss being able to marquee around an area of interest. Is this a bug or a feature? Add to that, is it possible to shift-select with a marquee and add to a selection by drawing around it? Every attempt I made, the polys that were already selected reverted to de-selected. Is this a feature not a bug? If so, how do you add multiple complex unconnected objects to an existing selection (say, add several buttons to a selection you've made to the front of a jacket)? I am beginning to suspect that the only "Bug" I am facing is that my system is a little old, and that all the other problems I am having with C5 is that it was designed for a radically different workflow.

Just installed OS 10.4.3 Every problem on my list is still there, save the unexpected lock-ups and crashes...and I haven't used it enough yet to know if they are still there as well. Any other Mac users have similar findings or is there something really peculiar going on here?

Sorry you're having so many problems with C5 for Mac, nomuse. On WinXP I haven't run into any of those problems so far although I haven't done much with particles in C5 yet. You mention your system is "a little old". Could that be the problem?

Oh... my fault... I'm on Win XP... and having the particle problem... so that's not a MAC thing. Just to clarrify. :) Christina

I'm sorry, the option-click DOES work on a Mac. I work on a Mac. IT works. I'm not sure what trouble you're having now, but it exceeds anything I've faced.

Aha, COMMAND-click. Or is your Mac wired differently. That does work and my apologies. I thought you were looking at the option-click pop-up and insisting that cutting the channel actually got you somewhere. Now that we have two ways of defeating the fresnel term, at least one of which works on both platforms, I'd call that a solved problem. Now, could anyone take a second and tell me if they lose polygon name groups or have their UVmaps bollixed up? Those two are giving me the toughest time in trying to come up with a easy work-around.

Also, for clarification. I was referring to Shoe String Shaders Fresnel not DCG fake fresnel.Sorry you are having a rough time...hope some of this gets cleared up.

Got a very nice email this morning. Eovia is aware of the group names issue and will, I hope, be working on it. They also took the time to explain to me how the new selection tools are supposed to work. I like them. I can now do everything I used to do, and maybe a little bit more. I still don't see the point of the lasoo tool, however. Haven't been able to generate a selection case where it was actually helpful. I sent them a before-and-after of my messed-up UV's -- with luck they'll respond to that as well. So at this point, unexplained crashes and poorly documented features aside (there will always be some of that in any program), all I'm waiting on is for the UVmap and the group names problems to be cleared up. Then Carrara will be a usable tool again.

Never. Or at least, there's as much a chance of Carrara6 being released first. I got confirmation from an Eovia tech on both the vanishing group names and the distorted UV maps issues. They have been "sent in," but they may not make the next patch. On other matters, after several emails he was able to clarify how the new selection tools are supposed to work, and how the fresnel term is applied and the underlying principle behind it. If anyone actually cares, I'll post what I've learned about those. They actually make a fair amount of sense once one gets over the less-than-transparent implementation.

I'm interested in hearing about the fresnal :)

Um....I thought I understood, but on a little more research what the Eovia guy told me about it simply duplicates simple, Fresnel-Equation type refraction and reflection. Which is to say...what he said bears not at all on understanding implementation of anisotropic effects within Carrara. About the only thing I can say with certainty is that whatever the effect is, the strength of the effect versus view angle is set entirely by the Index of Refraction for the material; aka refraction and reflection are driven by the same setting. The "fresnel term" slider is a percentage application of the lighting effect. If I am thinking clearly on this (the chance is I'm not) then this is of no use at all in understanding how to simulate the surface of a CD, a freshly-watered lawn, or the full Moon (all of them cases of anisotropic reflection due to surface microstructure; the latter two are strong retro-reflectors -- as is a modern highway sign.) Also, according to Eovia's explanation, a fresnel term of zero should be identical to having an Index of Refraction of 1.000 I do not remember this being the case in my last set of light-lab experiments. I'd guess I have more hours of rendering to try to figure out this poorly-documented feature.

mmm I'm pulling my hair out still in 4.1.1 G5/G4Mac renders fine till I go to sleep then crashes ... full reinstal , OS and Carrara ... maybe I won't get 5. hope they fix this soon I thought it was me ,