I dislike prepubescent nude pinups as much as most other people and don't want to create any.  However I see all of the Aiko 3 faces in the attached image as Anime-esque toon characters, and don't think any of them  have "the face of a twelve year old" as someone put it.   None of the Aiko 3 faces use any external face morph targets, neither do they use any magnets: they are either the base Aiko3 face, or Aiko3 face with a few standard face dial turns.

What do you think?

Why I'm doing this?  Well, I was very surprised when I received a message from someone whose judgement is  very different from mine (which I previously considered self-evident), and thus I  would like to get a better feel of what the community thinks, and if possible, prevent another disagreement regarding future renders.

Thank you.

I wouldn't have a problem with any of them.  Then again, I have a hard time getting upset over "underage" electrons.  I figure that real life CP is enough of a problem without having to invent a fuss about something that might, if it involved a real person, be mistaken for CP

Even though Aiko is cartoon like, there is still some resemblance of an underage girl. Therefore I would never produce a piece of work with one in the nude.  I have checked out your gallery, & while I'm not personally offended by it because it's just art & not real, I can understand some people finding it distasteful.

IMHO Aiko3 is toon like and not, at least not in my images, like anyone underage - if she were, or if my images were looking that way then I would not make them. I've used her a few times because I like toon images, but she never looked underage.

FWIW though, I know what you mean and some of the more faery images of Aiko 3 do make me uneasy...

As regards to your own work I agree, Aiko 3 does not look at all underage in them.

Sorry to not really give an answer, but it is my opinion on her...

Difficult question with lots of different (valid) opinions. This issue pops up regularly.
Aiko is considered an 'adult' figure here (from a merchant perspective, you can have promotional pictures showing her nude for texture products, while it's not allowed for other figures (for example the Young Teens or Preschooler figures, for obvious reasons)).

I personnally wouldn't mind seeing Aiko nude in any form (I don't associate the figure to a real person). Others would mind. Both opinions are valid, I think, and depends on the interpretation of the picture by each individuals. You can't please everyone.

If there is a picture that hurts some tastes, I believe we should trust the site's moderators to review the issue and act sensibly on a case by case basis if there are complaints. Likewise, people posting pîctures should (hopefully) act responsibly and not post something that is obviously 'disturbing' (at least not without a proper warning).

Just my 2 cents on this. I'm it's not really helpfull, though.

images depicting violence against women are a real problem IMVHO
but the issue of computer-generated child nudity or pornography is largely moot,
as the court in this site's jurisdiction ruled in favour of computer-generated images depicting child nudity.
hence it's up to individual site owners to enforce their own rules.

I avoid trolling the galleries looking for TOS violations,
but there are probably plenty of people looking for things they don't like,
hence I reckon the admins are probably kept busy with IMs about underage gallery images.

Aiko3 is about one year old, IIRC.

Everything else is a subjective argument.

The PTB have agreed to allow Aiko3 to be shown nude so that should draw a line under this ridiculous debate.

Apologies if I sound somewhat harsh but it's old, tired and ultimately pointless.

Huh. I thought TPB had actually classified Aiko as "underaged" the last time around. Could be wrong though. IIRC they had made blanket decisions based on the default model being used for any particular image--which IMO was kinda....iffy logic. Taken to its extreme, you run into ridiculous situations (and don't think people won't try) like someone morphing V3 into a very childlike appearance and arguing "well the PTB said Vicky 3 was adult!" And god forbid someone morph Laura into an adult character and show her nude. Morph a figure into an alien and everyone accepts that it's an alien. Morph a "child" figure into an adult, and people still say it's wrong because it's a "child" figure. Never really understood that line of reasoning.

Quote - Huh. I thought TPB had actually classified Aiko as "underaged" the last time around. Could be wrong though. IIRC they had made blanket decisions based on the default model being used for any particular image--which IMO was kinda....iffy logic. Taken to its extreme, you run into ridiculous situations (and don't think people won't try) like someone morphing V3 into a very childlike appearance and arguing "well the PTB said Vicky 3 was adult!" And god forbid someone morph Laura into an adult character and show her nude. Morph a figure into an alien and everyone accepts that it's an alien. Morph a "child" figure into an adult, and people still say it's wrong because it's a "child" figure. Never really understood that line of reasoning.

Nope, the TPB decided that Aiko3 was adult, after all.

The childlike - or otherwise - aspect of any model is judged on a case by case basis, so if V3 was morphed into a young girl, the mods would most likely pull the image.

.

Since by definition puberty is when breasts and hair (among other things) develop, it's ridiculus to call a female form with them pre-pubescent. Of course, that doesn't mean it won't happen. Not having enlarged breasts doesn't mean someone is pre-pubescent either. Post-pubescent females come in all shapes and sizes. (yippeee!!!)

Some people seem to go out of their way to try and find things to be offended by.

Really.

Quote - The PTB have agreed to allow Aiko3 to be shown nude so that should draw a line under this ridiculous debate.

On the contrary: the PTB (Powers That Be) YANKED one of my gallery images, stating that it was in violation of this website's child nudity guidelines!  The image in question was a pin-up with a VERY adult, very developed and voluptuous nude body (basically a naked Aiko in a temple, but no sword), and its face was one of the faces included in the image I attached to the first post of this thread.

Since nobody can identify any of the Aiko 3 faces in the image I posted in the first post of this thread as being that of a minor, I can only conclude that the moderator was out of line for deleting my gallery image.  It seems that my judgement on this matter is in the mainstream.

The moderator who performed the deletion was Karen.  I am going to direct her to this thread.

IIf you read further on, I qualified it with the following:

"The childlike - or otherwise - aspect of any model is judged on a case by case basis, so if V3 was morphed into a young girl, the mods would most likely pull the image."

I am going to direct her to this thread.

I doubt it will change anything. in fact this thread will likely be locked and or moved.

I was hoping to get into what characteristics define a "child" image such as no pubic hair, flat chest, disproportionate head and or eyes etc. and note that the last two were characteristics of anime toons.

and then go into how some people seem to obsess over one particular attribute as definative. such as large breasts or flat chest. it is the same problem that we have getting ethnic morphs. the maker sees some attributs and accuratly models them but others are focused on others and declair that the morph is wrong.

but it's probably too late.

it's ridiculus to call a female form with them{breasts} pre-pubescent.

My step sister was a double D when she was 13. she wasn't pre-pubescent neither was she an adult.

3,4, and 9 look clearly underage to me. 7 is close, but the hairdo puts it over the line. i should add that i don't take to most anime because many anime characters look way too childlike to me, and it messes with my perceptions to see apparent children in adult situations, behaving like adults. i fully expect that people who are used to anime see this differently, but you need to be aware that this is a large cultural difference. i don't, however, go around art sites looking for child nudity violations, because i don't agree with the prohibitions layed out by various governments. i don't even get upset at virtual models depicting child porn -- i am not into it, and i consider it disturbing, but i also see it as mere victimless fantasy, since no actual children are involved. i would like legislation to better recognize the huge difference between fantasy and reality. i haven't looked at your gallery yet, but since you asked for opinions i will, and let you know which images push my "underage" button. having breasts does not make a model of age; puberty usually starts well before the age of consent, nevermind the age of majority.

To answer your question from my point of view, Images 3,4 and 6 look like young girls tome I'd place ages between 11 and 13. I think it has more to do with the texturing than any morphs other than maybe they're wearing youthful expressions of  mischief in 3,  innocence in 4 and fear or surprise in 6.

Oh for XXXX sake... not this crap again. -_-

SHE'S A WITCH BURN HER BURN HER!

It's a collection of goddamn polygons deal with it.

I wonder if the "Love is...) sculptures would be illegal if they cam out today. Were they called precious moments"? Little naked people getting married or doing dishes or whatever...

Oh for XXXX Sake yourself, the thread starter just asked a question and I just gave my opinion as an answer. I wasn't making any judgements and neither did that person. Can't we even discuss these things without people getting all hot headed about it?

First of all, I'd like to express thanks for the helpf ul responses.

Let me clarify some of my earlier statements.

Yes, I am used to Japanese Anime characters (that may explain my opinion).  And I like to make anime/Toon type renders rather than realistically faced ones.  And I have used Aiko 3 (and the G.I.R.L.) a lot.  I don't WANT to make nude renders of minors or teenagers - the mere thought of that repulses me.

Thus I was very surprised when someone claimed that what I had assumed to be a "toon-faced" render looked like that of a minor to her.  I assumed that the character's non-human, cartoonish facial proportions were self-evident.  I consider myself to be a normal human being, and I think that I should be able to identify whether a face looks underage or not..

But apparently, some people on this thread DO identify SOME (but not all) of the toon faces pasted in the first image on this thread as being underage.  I find that interesting - this means that  judging the age of Aiko 3 toon faces is somewhat subjective, and my judgement is not as universal as I had previously thought.  I intend to make more Aiko 3 / G.I.R.L. renders in the  future and do not wish to fall afoul of any of this website's guidelines, so I shall avoid doing the latter.

But here comes the rub: how can I tell WHICH toon faces are acceptable here?  To those of you who identify some of the toon faces on this thread's first image as being that of minors: does the G.I.R.L's face also look like that of a minor?  And how can one determine whether a certain Aiko 3 face may be misinterpreted by some as belonging to a minor?  I'd like some objective criteria so there are no future disagreements.

Quote - First of all, I'd like to express thanks for the helpf ul responses.

Let me clarify some of my earlier statements.

Yes, I am used to Japanese Anime characters (that may explain my opinion).  And I like to make anime/Toon type renders rather than realistically faced ones.  And I have used Aiko 3 (and the G.I.R.L.) a lot.  I don't WANT to make nude renders of minors or teenagers - the mere thought of that repulses me.

Thus I was very surprised when someone claimed that what I had assumed to be a "toon-faced" render looked like that of a minor to her.  I assumed that the character's non-human, cartoonish facial proportions were self-evident.  I consider myself to be a normal human being, and I think that I should be able to identify whether a face looks underage or not..

But apparently, some people on this thread DO identify SOME (but not all) of the toon faces pasted in the first image on this thread as being underage.  I find that interesting - this means that  judging the age of Aiko 3 toon faces is somewhat subjective, and my judgement is not as universal as I had previously thought.  I intend to make more Aiko 3 / G.I.R.L. renders in the  future and do not wish to fall afoul of any of this website's guidelines, so I shall avoid doing the latter.

But here comes the rub: how can I tell WHICH toon faces are acceptable here?  To those of you who identify some of the toon faces on this thread's first image as being that of minors: does the G.I.R.L's face also look like that of a minor?  And how can one determine whether a certain Aiko 3 face may be misinterpreted by some as belonging to a minor?  I'd like some objective criteria so there are no future disagreements.

There aren't any objective criteria, unfortunately.  It's always going to be someone's judgement.

I'm afraid Sam's right. My opinion as previously stated is surely my own subjective opinion, not based on any kind of objective criteria. I think the three I picked look like minors due to texturing and expressions used, that's about as objective as I can get on it.  Wish I could be more helpful.

well, if you keep producing what is deemed inappropriate art for this site, sooner or later you will get the boot...that's how its done here, isn't it ???
and being subjective to a certain extent, you are at risk every time you upload an Aiko3 with no clothes on...

My take on the whole deal, fwiw, I really don't care what nude images are put up...except pediophile, perverted, child exploitation type stuff...but seeing a nude kid or pre-teen, or whatever, in a normal part of daily life is .... life, isn't it?

Anyway, I'm off to another channel. This discussion has been raging forever around here and always ends up in the same place...nowhere.

I hope you were not cheesed at me! I was joking. I actually am surprised with what people "get away with" in the galleries. I think eroticized images of youth are gross and inappropriate. I think some of the faces shown above do look like minors, the ones listed by Mizrael and pleonastic. I find Anime difficult to take on this whole issue. I think that banning nudity on certain mesh is a reasonable expedience on the part of the site  to reduce the number of judgment calls that need to be made, etc, etc. If you have altered the mesh significantly no one will be able to distinguish the mesh you used - don't ask don't tell.

If any ill feelings came through on my flip comment it is because I have been TOSed for images based on actual women who are 35-45 years of age for having small chest despite wide hips and pubic and underarm hair. The thing has me so spooked I put on DD's even when the actual model has an A-'s. I was joking but on a certain level but I do wonder if those old Christian sculptures are legal. I just checked on the web and they have clothes on now but I swear my grandma's "love is never having to say you are sorry" figurine was two nudes.

This nth thread on the subject has me wondering... why do people post images in the galleries? I posted my first couple images to get feed back and when that didn't happen I didn't post again for five or so years. I only left them up to show I came over on 18 Apr 2000 but with these new forums I guess that isn't needed. My artist homepage is busted anyhow. Now I only post to the gallery if I need to show someone an image that doesn't belong on the forum... problem with a product for instance when I don't want to finger the merchant in "public". This place seems to me to be a forum and store. Why do people post their art in the gallery here? No one is going to criticize it for them. As for anything sexual... why don't the artists post to a sexual site? What are they posting the stuff for anyhow?

Quote - Some people seem to go out of their way to try and find things to be offended by.

Really.

Yup !!! ... Totally agree ...

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Quote - ...  see PJF's render in post above ...

Very nice pic and cloth textures.  Aiko 3 is teh SEZZEH NAH!

Someone once said that there would never be peace in the Middle East because anyone with a hand grenade could veto it.  If you submit to the whims of anyone with an opinion, then you set yourself up.  You're using a figure which has "officially" been declared adult.  As long as you don't morph her into a childlike character then you're following the guidelines the site has promulgated, leave it at that.  If the admins want to pull something, the onus is on them.  You're not going to get an objective standard on this - everyone is going to view it through the prism of their own attitudes and experiences.  The mods supposedly try to account for that by getting multiple opinions before yanking an image.  I think under the circumstances, that's probably the best we can get.  I understand your concern but if you want to do art that will offend no one then you better hang up your mouse.

this means that judging the age of Aiko 3 toon faces is somewhat subjective, and my judgement is not as universal as I had previously thought. heh. very few things are universal, and i doubt you'll find any that aren't biological. certainly art isn't. and there won't be any objective standards about people's appearance because that is also culturally influenced. i bet that if we both looked at the same people walking past we'd also pick different ones as minors occasionally; i know i have been wrong about it in either direction. i don't know that i can summarize what makes me perceive somebody as underage; it's an interesting question. it's a mixture of proportions, expression, movement, voice (the latter two of which aren't present here), and i have preconceptions, of course (such as not expecting certain hairstyles to be worn by young teens). a major reason for why i view anime characters as childlike are the huge eyes all by themselves, and something else has to strongly compensate for that to shift the character into the adult category. i tend to perceive aiko without too much morphing as a minor, but the girl almost always as an adult. the proportions of the girl are toon-adultish to me, very clearly so. it's actually hard to make the girl appear like a young teen. look at the two base figures next to each other, and you might be able to see what i see -- aiko has huge eyes, the girl doesn't. aiko has a tiny mouth, the girl has a large one. aiko has relatively narrow lips; the girl has voluptuous ones. now i am really curious to nail it down a bit more clearly. i'm gonna dust off my aiko and do some morphing to see whether i can come up with something useful. anyway, if i were you i wouldn't worry about it too much. write some extra text under an image to mark the character as adult, and if an image gets pulled just say "sorry, that wasn't meant to be a minor" and move on. people will never 100% agree on this, and mods make judgment calls just like anyone else. also, they have to protect the site from legal trouble so their judgment is probably a bit more narrow than yours.

You forgot to "direct me to the thread" DaQuestioner, but don't worry, I'm here anyway!

The image removed had two gallery comments from members who saw the figure as quite clearly underage, and every mod surveyed agreed with that. (8 opinions)

As stated numerous times before, judgement is made by each figure on a case-by-case basis, because any mesh can be morphed to appear much older or younger than the base model.

As also stated numerous times before, staff are happy to review images prior to posting if you are concerned that a character may appear underage (or any other TOS factor into the image.) We will review as a group and make any suggestions to bring the image within TOS, if appropriate.

Quote - > Quote - Oh for XXXX Sake yourself, the thread starter just asked a question and I just gave my opinion as an answer. I wasn't making any judgments and neither did that person. Can't we even discuss these things without people getting all hot headed about it?

I hope you were not cheesed at me! I was joking. I actually am surprised with what people "get away with" in the galleries. .

No, it wasn't you that I was "Cheesed" with Momo, it was Beserga who started in on us with the "For XXXX Sake!" comment. I don't understand why it can't be discussed rationally without people dragging all their personal bagage out and into the thread.

I'm sure you have to be over 18 to be a moderator as well but Karen could be 16 eh?  At any rate K, you may not be old enough to take that as a complement yet but you will be one day :-)

Bless you, I'm 33 next month!
This photo in my avatar was taken two years ago by my mum, here is the full version if you're interested:
http://www.forgottenworlds.co.uk/photos/me_grandma_may04.jpg

I maintain that my 10-year-old boy keeps me young ;-)
Along with a good exfoliator!

Quote -

I maintain that my 10-year-old boy keeps me young ;-)

Damn, my kids make me age faster...

Damn, my kids make me age faster...

I reckon I've got that to come when he starts going out with girls :biggrin:

Aiko 3 has the standard anime female face shape, in all the anime stuff I have seen all the female characters have that shape of face regardless of their age.

When we talk about "underage", we are already on a slippery slope. Under WHAT age? In some cultures, "children" marry in their first decade. In our culture, thanks to the blessings of PCB, female children grow breasts and ovulate in their first decade. Is an ovulating ten-year-old "underage"? If her eleven-year-old boyfriend makes love with her, are they both being molested?

I don't approve of child porn, but I find the idea that a naked child is pornographic disgusting and I regard anyone who thinks so as a pervert who should get counseling. The abuse of child sexuality, on the other hand, is as sick as the abuse of adult sexuality. It's just that the victims are smaller and usually more helpless.

And I see no reason to stop talking about this until our Puritanical society collapses under its own layers of pure, sanitized, holy  excrement.

M

In our culture, thanks to the blessings of PCB, female children grow breasts and ovulate in their first decade.
(manually typed break)
(manually typed break)
Oh Darn, I was going to mention that to Tyger_Purr. At that point (13 years old with double D breasts) she's adolescent. You're right, not yet adult, but definately not pre-pubescent. And definately looking forward to a life of back problems in addition to stupid men problems.

She is s toon and not real appearing at all to me. I think if someone was doing realistic images of someone this young looking, and they were nude, it would cross the line (in my opinion).

I've not thought about this very much at all. That is my first impression. I can see that this is a worthy discussion though.

I see it as a cultural thing for the uptight US. When I worked at Wizards of the Coast I created a diversity class for all employees. I wanted to use our products and the great images they contained to show some differences in how things needed to be adapted for other countries - and for the US.

One lesson from this is that the American versions of the popular Pokemon cards needed to really be scrubbed. One of the original Poke characters from Japan was Nude Misty - a young pre-teen looking fairy creature. She never saw the light of day on a US card. I came across many instances of changes - for our culture. (Another card showed a creature looking from a manhole in the street up a school girls dress. For the US card the creature's eyes were retouched to be looking to the left instead of up.) I have many more examples. It was fascinating.

I am not sure what I brought to the conversation - but that is some of my relevant experience.

Tim

Tim

when i've been talking about "underage", i've been talking about people appearing under the age of 18, since that's the age used by the US government in determining whether material involves the sexual exploitation of children. And I see no reason to stop talking about this until our Puritanical society collapses under its own layers of pure, sanitized, holy excrement. hear hear.

Attached Link: Age of Consent by Country - Somewhat Reliable Source

My personal minimum age limit for an artist depiction involving artistic nudity or explicit sexuality is 21-24 as in my opinion that is the minimum age for true informed consent but on an academic level I find it odd that in The US and Canada the threshold for nude imagery even if completely imaginary in origin ranges from 18-19 while the age of consent for engaging is sex ranges in North America from 14 in the US and 12 in Canada and Mexico up to 17 at the oldest depending on the state or province. Meanwhile North America has the most restrictive laws on graphic representations of nudes in the developed world  with successful prosecutions on drawings from imagination and innocent snapshots of infants. I do not know however what the legal relationship is between age of consent and "Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor", "Lewd and Indecent Conduct with a Minor", or "Statutory Rape". Is it a crime for a person of majority and normal metal faculties to engage in sex  with a mentally disabled person? I would expect this this would be an instance of "Statutory  Rape" given the matter of consent. Is the sexual representation of a fictional mentaly retarded person a case of proscribed pornography? I do know that although the "marrying" of children to mature men is a well documented practice among some Mormon groups, Irish Travelers, and some Asian  and Mid-Eastern ethnic groups in North America there seems not to be any state proscription of these activities. Is this because of age of consent? In any case, it is the local and federal laws in North America that causes the extreme care exersized by websites here concerning imagery that might possibly be mis-construed as problematic. Also there is the whole PayPal issue. Does PayPal restrict the content of its member sites in Europe as it does in the united states? I find this funny as Amazon and eBay both sell hardcore pornography and I belive eBay is owned by PayPal or vis versa.

Anyway, my policy as an artist was to withdraw my work from public view in any instance of people being uncomfortable with it, it was not my agenda to make people see art that was offensive to them. I was willing in gallery shows to have some work exhibited in spaces set aside as designated for nudity. "the work in this gallery may be offensive to some viewers" :) I don't show anymore at all now that there is no money in it for me... as posted above, I wonder what the impulse is for exhibiting art if it is not to make money or receive criticism.

Anyone who's lived in Korea, Japan, or China, or in a community elsehwere in the world with a number of people from those regions has seen women in their -30s- who look younger than Aiko. At my law school, where the age starts at 23 and goes up into the 60s - many of the women look younger. If I didn't know Asians from a lifetime of living in an Asian community as a part Asian, and a half decade living in Asia itself, I would have thought they were all 15-17. White people age fast... (in the general generic sense - individuals excepting). I'm personally convinced they just get old and wrinkled quicker than the rest of us, and they expect the rest of us to get old and wrinkled too... Because they have such an amazing control over the media in the west, they honestly don't know what the rest of the world looks like. When I'm in the Meztico community everybody looks younger than the whites, and when I'm around blacks its the same thing (I am myself, part Asian, part Amazon indian, part Cherokee and Crow, and part Porteguese and Irish - and people at my school are usually 5-12 years off in guessing my age. Some of them, fresh out of undergrad, even think I'm younger than them, when in truth I'm old enough to be a parent to some of them). When I look at Aiko I don't see a girl at all. I see a slightly toonish version of a woman that could easily morph into a number of my ex-girlfriends. In fact, I've seen pics of other figures modified to be a little more like her that as a result came close to what my wife looked like when she was 25. So for me, the mental image of Aiko is a 22-26 year old.

momodot said: I wonder what the impulse is for exhibiting art if it is not to make money or receive criticism. judging from the vast majority of comments here, it's to receive praise from friends, pretty much regardless of the quality of the material posted. while i appreciate that encouragement is important, i really do wish it were possible to get constructive criticism, but i suspect i'll have to work hard to cultivate connections to the few people who actually give such critiques, and i am not at all sure how to do that -- i don't really want to go around and beg people who don't know me from adam to look at my images. i wish there were a community specifically for critiques -- i am perfectly willing to do my share; i love discussing process. but this is really way off the thread topic. maybe i should start a new thread on it.

Hey pleonastic, I have seen a number of instances where people posted WIPs or completed images in the forums asking for and receiving constructive feedback. Usually you just have to ask for it and you'll recieve it.

I don't think there are any Human Poser Characters over 18 years old, so we're guilty of Kiddie Porn regardless of what we render!!  We're all a bunch of sleazes!!

Remeber the statutes are based on age, not appearance.

personally, i don't think it's just a matter of "personal" opinion, it's a matter of consistency.  aiko, anime doll, belbel, mizuho, yuki, and other custom figures and morphs are anime.  many anime characters that look just like them facially and body-wise are declaratively older than 18.  for instance, in the ranma series, kasumi (19) had basically the same face as her sister, the female lead akane (16).   akane had a shorter body, more rounded limbs, and less of a chest.  that is, her body declared her age, not her face.  now, if you want to decide that anime (which is interestingly a stylistic decendant of disney) is always underage, then great, go ahead.  that's simply not what the genre itself says.  nor how anything in anime works.  if the female (or male for that matter) isn't a particularly elderly character, she gets pretty much the same facial treatment- whether she's a bio-engineered spy working for the government or a school girl with awakening powers, or even a young child.  if you notice, yamato's chibi belbel (see daz forums) has a different body, but not a different head.   that's anime.   we're not talking about putting taking a child figure with child's face and hips, adding a breast morph, and just declaring the person above age.  anime is a specific stylistic genre, and in the rules of anime, i'd say aiko is an adult character. looking at the younger anime characters, i'd actually say she looks way too old to be a child.

now if you want to go and declare all anime with nudity child porn (and there's a lot of non-hentai anime with nudity), go ahead.  but that's neither the intent nor the perceived intention among its fans.   you might just as easily say that hiro is a  female child character, since his face has only minor differences (as is true of most males in anime).  

welll my opinion is like this........ not that it  matters but Aiko came out with nipples on her !mat  aiko professional bundle texures  so she musnt be  underage to daz!

White people age fast...
:rolleyes: But we make up for it by never maturing intellectually.

If the test of "underage" is being mature enough to know what you are doing, then the average American will fail till senility is over with. I'm not totally comfortable with Japan's sexual culture (and yes, I lived there five years), but it's sure got ours beat to a froth.

Our fixation on the significance of nudity is right out of the more obsessed and patriarchal caves of the ME. And our obsession with the purity of children is a sublimed but no less ugly remnant of the patriarchal view that children are salable property. In other words, we protect their little hymens to jack up the price. No wonder we get so exercised. This isn't about sex, it's about.... money!!

The crime of violence against a child should be punished. Just like other crimes of violence. But that's not what our CP laws are trying to punish. We are slaves of sex, so we hate it. Other people find us very, very strange.

M