i shall be dropping the publishers a line, and pointing out that they could have my art for covers which has a bit more work to it than using two models from someone else and plonking them together to make a quick scene - Oh thats not like me i dont normally get bitter and twisted- i apologise, i guess as they say, all publicity is good....

I'd be upset too, but you sold 'em, they bought 'em. That's the way business is done....:sad:

dont get me wrong, im not upset as such, but when others who have used my stuff have dropped me a quick line to say what they did with them and where i could see the images, it just would have been nice. but your right, it did seem jealous of me, and i did get a sale so thats fair.

If in your readme you stated they were for 'personal non commercial" use, as some things in the store are, then I'd send an invoice for the 'commercial' use of your models. If on the other hand  you didn't state specifically the use you allowed with them, bye bye any additional cash from their using them to promote their magazine....=)

Oh and if it was a freestuff item you definitely should charge them, as freestuff is NEVER (generally) for commercial use.

I disagree ZHANN, for instance - I had put up a LATCHWORM model in the POSER directory, and in the BRYCE freebies directory I had put up a series of ships and mats to be used in scenes. Now people could use these for both commercial and non-commercal use AND they did NOT have to give me credit. WHY? - simple - they are DESIGN ELEMENTS - not COMPLETED WORKS in and of themselves. They are meant for people to use to create their own stuff.

If you make MATS and PRESETS - post them in a freebie's section - and then tell people "sorry, but if you use this preset(s) for artwork that your gonna make and then sell, then you'll have to pay me!" - then your playing a dirty trick. Freebies are things that should be truly free, not catch 22 "royalty traps". If you don't want people to use stuff that you made for free - then get the stuff out of the "FREEBIES" section and put them in your Rendo ' store. Poor and low income artists who have access to computers use free things because they can't afford to buy them. If I give something to the community - I give something that has value, not something that represents a feigned attempt at generosity.

Of what value is a work of art - if the artist is forbidden to profit from it because a minor design element or secondary component came from somebody who just "pretended" to offer it for free? I'll have to go through my Bryce Mats to make sure I don't have any of yours - because I don't want to be getting any letters from your lawyers.

"Oh and if it was a freestuff item you definitely should charge them" <- This is a GROSSLY hippocritical statement...

Just had a quick look at the freestuff here, and of the first 108 items currently displayed, about 30 of them are listed as non-commercial only (this number may, or may not, be a bit skewed as about 12 of those 30 came from one person). I also didn't dredge into the zips to find out if whats on the rosity page is related to the readme's in the zips, so this could also skew the results as well.

However, that being said, I don't begrudge anyone the right to say how their hard work that they're giving away is to be used as far as commerical/non-commercial goes.

Freestuff items can be designated as not for Commercial use, as the author did not offer the item for money, and does not wish the item (element or completed) as a source of money in any way. They did not make it or offer it with that intention, and they wish that to carry through.

As author/creator, any person has the right to designate this one way or another.

In addition if the author/creator wishes to be contacted in the event of the item wanting to be used commercially, when it is not designated to, they have that right.

The only thing you cannot do (as far as Renderosity is concerned) is sell an item, and specifty it not be for commercial use.

As far as being given credit?

It most likely doesn't happen as often as we would like it to, no matter what the designation of the item is.

Currently under U.S. copyright, patent, AND trademark law - you CANNOT claim ownership of a color.

The CRAYOLA crayon / art supply company has attempted to challenge that stipulation several times and has failed...Up until about fifteen years ago - letter designers (typographers) could not get a copyright or patent on a font design based on roughly the same principle.

When I make something for other artists to use - they may use it royalty or fee free in any derivative work and then sell that work, but they cannot claim ownership of the element in and of itself: EXAMPLE:

Let's say I offer a space craft model as a freebie on RENDO - and a major motion picture company uses it in a film. They would NOT have to pay me one red cent for using it - BUT - if I used that same model in one of MY art works and they tried to "back sue" me for copyright infringement, OR - even if they tried to do that to another artist that used that same space craft model for THEIR work - then I would litagate the crap outta that film company and they would NOT have a leg to stand on - because I own the copyright to that ship design and have stipulated it as a free open stock commodity.

Credit is nice - sure - but in the course of working on projects an artist might download THOUSANDS of freebies - and MOST of those do NOT have read me's stipulating the creator's REAL name. Giving credit - although ethically dutiful and noble, is not always an easy or simple proposition and may require not only a significant amount of detective work to track a creator down - but also tons of contact time that can erode allotted time reserved for the project itself.

In my opinion - material, sky, and other presets that are to be used in BRYCE should not be offered as freebies for "non-commercial" use only.

WHY? - Hmmm - remember the whole mess a while back with Compuserve and the .GIF graphic image format? Whoever owns BRYCE - owns the rights to the native file formats that it's presets are defined under. Has anyone who has ever sold a set of Bryce skies or materials payed royalties to DAZ because they sold them in the .bsk and .mat formats? HMMMMMMMM.....

For that matter - what about they folks giving them away - they certainly aren't exempt under that principle either... 

You cannot sell MY presets as a preset package or - yes - I will legally burn your buns, but if yopu used one of my models in an image, video, whatever - did not give me credit - and made a gazillion bucks with it - then I would say "MORE POWER TO YOU BROTHER!" - and then continue munching on my Mcdonald's Cheese burger payed for with my $7.96 an hour laymoid job as a department store stock clerk.

No offense, but nobody is talking about colors here. Not even about mat presets.

LOL, Glad you twisted a little bit there at the end, almost had the notion you may be lucid.......Nah!

No A.S. - not specifically, but ZHANN HAS offered free Mats for "non-commercial use only", and ZHANN made the statement here:

"Oh and if it was a freestuff item you definitely should charge them"

Hence - the discussion indirectly concerns ALL media offered as freebies (or for sale), and issues concerning credit and feduciary concerns...

The discussion of the "Colors" issue was an alleghory segway - if you read the statement more carefully - you'de get it.

I did read carefully, perhaps my caffeine levels are not as high, lol.

But, as far as tradition is concerned, Renderosity is concerned, and pretty much the whole cgi Industry is concerned; that is fine. (Freebie items can be designated as non-commercial)

It's up to the author to designate how the resource may be used, or not used, period.

And, so far the Industry has supported that. (to varying degrees, I am sure)

"In my opinion - material, sky, and other presets that are to be used in BRYCE should not be offered as freebies for "non-commercial" use only"

I would say in all honesty, that is to keep certain individuals from taking your sky preset, changing the value number of one field, and the re-selling it as their own.

Now, we all know it's probably going to be done to some extent anyway, even though MP testers look for similarities in items, they cannot know every item under the sun, and be able to spot every clever person...

Sure, it's almost useless, but its the mindset that anything can and will be stolen, but at least a padlock will help keep the honest people honest.

Ahhhhhhh....I didn't mean to drive ya away.

Is it my new firey avatar?

Does my new avatar smell?......

Nice avatar btw...=)

Mugsey, your statements are facinating. I mean, statistically, by random chance some of the words you used should have been right. Truely facinating.

rj001, congrats on the big name usage. Sucks they didn't credit you, or even drop you a note. (I'm assuming the model was for sale and the EULA didn't prohibit commercial use)

Here...I'll make my avatar PlushieSmith.

Better, yes?

not to chane the subjet or anything..........but

RE: AS avatar:

I still say Jack's the man! (More MA and MA noms then almost anybody.)

-TJ( I think an Oscar would make a great hood orniment)

whoops, just came back this morning to find this open can o worms.

i had originally put non-commercial use (unless permnission granted) in my read-me, and have been since i started being a render merchant ooh many moons ago.

but recently testers have come back and said the rules are you cant prohibit commenrcial use. so i was forced to change it or not get the item on-sale. and to be honest i wouldnt have stopped him using them, its the getting a credit, or a nod of where to look for my exposure that i would have liked. (though i would have liked a more exciting image to be made) Lots of others have taken the time to do so.

But anyway, with the amount of sales i have made iguess it happens more often than not, its just, they're like, my babies man, and i see them grow up and go off into the big wide world...hoping they dont meet some jack the lad who has his wicked way with them. hehe. thanks guys. c u soon.

A point I should have made at first;

Dude...very cool to see your creation somewhere published! All the other stuff aside, it's gotta feel cool to see your baby up there like that.  ;o)

*re: my old, popular avatar - The artist who originally made it, asked me not to use it, so, bummer.  ;o(

thanks mate, now to make some even more stunning models and hopefully get them on dust jackets too!

Exactly.  ;o)

AS: I'm confused - which avatar is which? 

RJ: cool! I always look forward tro seeing your stuff!!!

I can't use my old popular one anymore, the one that everybody liked. Here's a link to the artists page that originally made it. Very cool 2D artwork;

http://homepage.mac.com/shelleyinez/PhotoAlbum13.html

So, I'm trying on different avatars right now, seeing which one I will use. But...I'll probably try sketching an agent smith of my own...

AgentSmith,

Bikermouse avatar was the product of a challenge in Poser forum when Lyrra was the Mod there..The head  was a morph done in Carrara ported back to Poser4. So it was done by me in a couple of evenings in the long ago(after a couple weeks of figuring out how to do it. If I could do Bikermouse avatar I'm sure you could do something along those lines only much better. The only trick in those old Poser Morphs was to keep the number of polys the same when you're modifying it in your 3d app.

-TJ     

AgentSmith,

Bikermouse avatar was the product of a challenge in Poser forum when Lyrra was the Mod there..The head  was a morph done in Carrara ported back to Poser4. So it was done by me in a couple of evenings in the long ago(after a couple weeks of figuring out how to do it. If I could do Bikermouse avatar I'm sure you could do something along those lines only much better. The only trick in those old Poser Morphs was to keep the number of polys the same when you're modifying it in your 3d app.

-TJ     

Yup, that rule sure applies to ZB.

hmm I sense a disturbance in the Force: is a new ZB based AgentSmith avatar in the works?

I.....dunno, lol. I'll try various things. I think me, Mr. Wacom, and Painter/Photoshop are going to have a stab at it first.

Firstly - I drew my avatar under the influence of - yes - massinve amounts of caffiene and a Nihilists contempt for convention -

SECONDLY - Agent Smith, you have made valid, solid, and VERY ethically sound statements and arguments toward my position that were very intelligently presented - and I appreciate them sir, but please let me clarify / summarize my core point:

My feelings are that IT IS WRONG to take a package of Bryce presets that someone else has made, and in their true form or slightly modified, sell them AS a preset package that was allegedly authored by you -

but - on the other hand - IT IS NOT UNETHICAL to use a preset made by someone else (specifically a sky, a terrain, a water, a metal, or a pattern or volume mat) in an image of your creation, and claim complete authorship of the original image as a whole without any guilt or remorse over using a preset to "color" a detail.

Royalties and fees are more or less a business issue rather than a purely legal issue, but I feel that in that regard that if the person using the "borrowed" preset is in financial difficulties or financial dire straights, then it wouldn't kill the person who offered the preset in the first place to say "Sure - go ahead and use it, don't worry about - it's cool dude / chick.

I am however iffy about .obp models. In my mind there's a big difference between a mountain texture or a sky color - and an elaborately constructed castle. A construction differs from an "environmental element" like a sky, water, terrain, etc. - in that it can exist as a single cohesive entity rather than being an incomplete "puzzle piece" within a much larger image. It's more of an obvious "signature item" than merely a passive asthetic complimentary element, and thus - may represent a completed work in and of itself. Ethically speaking - an artist in my opinion has a slightly stronger leg to stand on in asking for compensation for a non-typical model construction rather than for an organic environmental component that is itself, by definition, merely a dependant variable in the greater eqaution of the image itself.

NOW GO SUCK A SWEAT SOCK YOU RANCID SONS OF A FECID TURTLE, WHERE'S MY FREAKIN PROZAC !!! I USED MY STINKIN NOODLE TOO MUCH, MY HEAD HURTS - AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

I agree with all that. ;o)

Personally...I fully believe that no matter what kind of item it is, or what market in the world it resides in, that item is going to be emulated, copied, or  "reverse engineered".

(Bryce presets, cars, computers, t-shirt slogons...whatever)

*If it is retail, get happy with whatever money you can make with it, before the "clones" come out.

*If it is a freebie, just give it the heck away, period. This is how I am seeing it for myself and my stuff. I'd rather just take whatever Bryce freebies I've got and give up most rights to it, (other than just a straight re-sell). Especially, mat/sky presets. They are an area of too much possible speculation at to how much someone changed someone elses presets before they sold, them, claimed credit for them, etc.

A mental state of just giving them up, literally...is much better for me. I like it. ;o)

If I want money I'll sell add-on textures for daz figures or make original meshes like rj001.

Besides, if I can make good mats...give them away, and other people make more/even better mats off of my mats...then that will make me happier than what little money I would make with them. Bryce can make some very realistic mats, and skies, its just cracking that DTE! And, the better mats Bryce users have, the happier they are and we are better competition to other landscaping programs. (imho)

Agreed - and with that, no further need be said...

ALSO - it appears that I have just stabbed myself in the eye with a pencil - Damn Care Bears and their stinking mind control tactics anyway!!!

Regards - Bongo the chimp...

Lol..you are twisted.

Which is good if you're gonna hang around this forum...

Hi rj001,

I don't post much here in the forums anymore, but I seen this post and wanted to chime in.
I have purchased models from you in the past, and have to admit that I have used them over and over many times. I'm afraid I'm a little guilty of not giving you credit everytime I use your stuff. I am a professional illustrator full time. I illustrate novels, and do tons of commission work. Now I don't know about the illustrator of the above book, but I can tell you that there are a couple of things that could be going on here you may not be aware of. First and foremost when you do an illustration for a novel that is being sold commercially the director/editor will never give credit in the authors book to a model maker. That sounds rude I know, but the cold truth is the publishing company doesn't care how the art was made as long as you are not in violation of copyright infringement. In the case where copyright infringement is in suspect, the artist wouldn't be allowed to use that object in the artwork. So the point here is the artist that used your work, probably didn't get the oppurtunity to give you credit even if they wanted to.

Secondly, someone very well could be ditributing your models as free, and taking credit for themselves illegally. In that case the artist probably isn't aware that they were yours.

I know some in the peanut gallery may disagree with me, but that's been my experience so far doing this professionally and working with several publishing companies.

I promise though, if I do use your models in a commercial piece, and it is very likely that will be the case in the very least I will pm you and let you know what it's being used for,  Most of the time I'm not allowed to post the published pieces in public galleries for a period of several months, so I'm afraid that's the best I can do.
Take care,

Michael

"Damn Care Bears and their stinking mind control tactics"

It's not the Care Bears you have to worry about, it's the Tellatubbies......
They're everywhere...
And they have guns........:scared:

Quote - I did read carefully, perhaps my caffeine levels are not as high, lol.

Must be ya hair getting in/over ya eyes again...get it cut :tongue2:

Hah, my eyes...you wouldn't believe the places my hair ends up getting stuck in....

I'm getting my regular "trim" tomorrow. About 3 inches taken off. Of course...I'll still have nearly 3 feet left, lol.

Dear Hytheshade,

i had almost given up on looking at this thread after the hijacking by the avatars and wierdos brigade (just gagging guys, keep up with the free mind expanders) Anyway, i was pleased to read your sensible reply. Thanks for the insight, to be honest i never expect a modellers credit, all i was hoping for would be a chance to see them used and enjoy how the artist had worked with them.

What i have done though is write to the publishers and suggest if they like something made by my models, maybe they might like to use some of my renders, you never know, worth a chance.

but thanks again for your reply. post again soon.

Frankly the objects I've made so far and offered for freebies haven't been good enough (in my opinion) to sell. I offer them as freebies with no strings attached (except no redistribution w/o my permission, and definitely can not be sold or even represented as having been created by anyone else-but I don't think that's too much to ask for) if anyone wants to use them in a commercial image, that's great, but like rj001 it would be great if I was notified by the user. And if I ever make something I think is really commercial grade, you will definitely see it in the marketplace, LOL.

rj001,

I misread I think the original post somewhat. I thought the use of the model was in question rather than the render. If you are trying to get your renders used for publication you might think about advertising in the message forums the use of your renders at places like lulu.com. There are many self publishing sites like this where the authors are starting out as writers and publishing their first book, but need  cover art at an affordable price. You also might be surprised at what they will pay to use it...

tjohn, I think you don't realize how useful and good your stuff really is. Many many artists that work the way I do are always on the look out for things such as you create. Sometimes it's the simplest things too. It doesn't neccesarily have to be textured well either. (not that your's aren't ;-)) Many times I will render a scene in Bryce with no textures at all, so that I can get the layout without having to mess with perspective, and finish it up in painter, or photoshop. It's the shape of the object that matters most. If I were you I would try selling at a reasonable price as a test. You just never know..... Even if you don't sell anything the only thing you lose is a little time.

TELETUBBIES?...Good God - YOUR RIGHT MAN!

Teletubbies...RULING - THE - WORLD - AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!

By the way - did you ever noticed how that one Teletubby used to get his jollies by letting that creepy robot vacuum cleaner thing vacuum his belly all the time? It was the only thing about that show that I could relate to - HELLO!!!!

AND YES - THE TELETUBBIES HAVE RAY GUNS!...whaz up wit dat homey? Oh well - they got replaced by those creepy colorful cactus ball people anyway - I don't even know what to call THOSE guys - but it's yet another attempt to turn our children into drulling moronic sheep - who are stupid enough to have easily pliable wills...yes...an ingenius plan...it's pure brilliance...yeeessss....yeeeeeeesssssssssssss...

Bookmark - this is funny - aside from you (rj001) not getting some form of heads-up from the artist about using your model ("Hey, check this out - I think it turned out pretty well!" kinda thing woulda been nice, ya think?)! That bites!

BTW - the psycho dancing-cacti are BooBah! They look like they were created by someone on a serious acid trip!

Boobah?...Boo - Bah?...BOOOOOBBBBBBAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!...BOOOOOOBBBBBAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

MWA HA HA HA HAAAAAAARRRRRGH!!!

"Our trap has been sprung - as it rolls off your tongue -

BOOOOOOBBBBBAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!"

The sweet nightmare begins...

First is was BARNEY the obnoxious airhead T-Rex ...Then it was that Telletubbies...Now...

BOOOOOBBBBBAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Their little minds are putty bin our hands -

MWA HA HA HA HAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

hmm ok now at the risk of sounding cocky i'll say if someone wants to use my graphics, models, textures, words, music, photo's or anything of my creation for that matter in a commercial product they will have to notify me of it and discuss the matter with me and most important of all, they will need to have my aproval. If not, they will have a prooooblem. Free publicity or not. Besides the fact that there are publicity sources that i do not wish to be associated with (pr0n for instance, or amaturistic organizations etc) I consider it to be not any less then normal to at least ask my permission and give me credit for my work. And depending on the commercial value and the publicity value I might even demand financial compensation for using my creations.

Obviously I'll congratulate you with the fact that someone liked your models enough for use on a cover image, but as far as im concerned the very least you could do is demand to be given credit for the use of your models. Preferably credit to your real name rather then your online name, though both online and real is good too. Either way, with ur real name people can track you down if they want, not to mention it looks more professional. oh, and perhaps a link to your website or such.

Rayraz,

there is one main difference in yours and rj001 models I assume. He is selling his commercially. You are talking about someone asking your permission first. rjoo1 is for all intents and purposes not just selling his models to the public at large, but he is also selling a license for the buyer to reproduce something using his model, wether commercially or not. In the case of a cover artist for a novel where would the artist post credit for the use of this model? In the novel itself? Ask the authors permission to advertise for someones models they purchased? That's unlikely, even unheard of. If the artist had a website, or posted here at renderosity, they certainly should give credit for the use of the model, but not when it's being used in print. And I mean no disrespect at all when I say the artist/illustrator of the cover really isn't obligated to do so if they were purchased from a store. The artist purchased the right to reproduce without that obligation.

Borrowing models for free is  a different story all together though. I always get the modelers permission before I use something commercially if the modeller is doing it for free. but commercially there's just no way I can see that giving credit is even possible.

I think it depends on the sales agreement... I think u can sell an object for non commercial use.

It might be that the renderosity marketplace has a rule for this of it's own. if not it's up to the person selling his model to do that. I for one would rather not have someone pay $5 for my model, slap another texture on it, hit the render button and earn 20 times as much for the end result as he paid me for the model...

To be honest i dont remember if i adressed this issue with my own marketplace products, but i dont consider them of much commercial value anyways. (which is why they're friggen cheap)