Trying to decide which to buy, V5I vs Carrara 5 Pro.  From what I have read, V5I’s EcoSystem is excellent and their plants are very realistic.  The program, though, is considered somewhat unstable. Carrara 5 Pro apparently has an EcoSystem-like capability with a much more stable render engine (again from what I have read). It also has a modeling capability integrated in the program and is now being offered at a discount.

I guess my basic question is which is a better overall program? Is V5I sufficiently superior to Carrara 5 Pro to justify its higher cost?

TIA

gannon

As usual with this kind of question, I have a two part answer :

1- it depends on what kind of picture you want to do (or what your needs are)

2- nothing people can here here that will replace the experience you get by downloading demos of both software and trying them out by yourself.

Because of its origins, Carrar's interface and workflow are close to Bryce (although they have changed it quiet a bit). Vue's workflow is different.

Chose an application with a workflow that you are comfortable with - that's the most important. You will be able to do amazing things in both software if you are comfortable with it's workflow.

To me it seems like an apples and oranges situation because Carrera is a polygon modeller [?not sure haven't demo'd it yet] or a modelling app any way, and Vue is the best 'landscape/terrain' modeller in the universe.

If Carrera has mesh editing available it would be useful to have, but for the investment of cash I'd go to Vue5Inf for the power, and look into a free ware polygon modeller, of which there are quite a few if you look, for the mesh editing and general model building that Vue with it's boolean modelling[like Bryce] can't accomplish.

You are likely to get biased opinions by asking that question in a Vue forum, the only way to answer the question to your satisfaction is to try demos of both and make your own mind up. A lot will depend on what kind of artwork you want to produce, if its exclusively landscape work, heavy with vegetation then Vue is probably better but if you want to vary your images, specially with Poser figures, then Carrara takes some beating. The Carrara render engine is far better (and faster) than Vue's but to balance this up, Vue's ecosystem feature, coupled with solidgrowth 2 plants, is definitely more powerful than the surface replicator in Carrara. I use both programs myself and tend to split the work between them fairly evenly, depending on what each job entails. If I had to choose between the two, then I guess I would have to go with Carrara as it gives me more versatility, better render engine, built in modeling and a more powerful shader (materials) system.

I can only echo here what some others have said.

Like Rids I have both apps and use them for different things.  Same thing with Bryce, which I also have.  If I'm doing a landscape, nature scene, I'm going to do my best to work with Vue 5 I.  The ecosystem is second to none and really can't be beat in any other app in this general price range.  Obviously some of the more high end apps are going to be able to do more, but of the medium to low end apps, this ecosystem really rocks.

Now, also to second some others, demo them both and strongly consider your needs.   Yes, Vue is more tempermental than a pure bred cat living with a fashion model, but the landscapes you can get out of it are worth the frustration.  Carrara 5 Pro can import Poser files, including support for Dynamic Hair and cloth.  Are you going to be animating?  Carrara has a more stable interface that I've found so far, but a much different workflow.  I don't care for the three rooms of modeling, but it does render really nice images.

I also post at DAZ and there are a few threads going in the commons forum.  If you also belong to DAZ and have joined the Platinum Club or are considering it, Hexagon 2 is $1.99 right now for PC members and I know that is a modeling app.  So, again, base your decision on your needs and which app feel right for you when you demo it.

Try the demo versions...that is the only way to decide if a software suits you.
If you ever find a developer that doesn't have a demo of their software, then consider that a lack of confidence in their own product...or an inability to provide potential customers with a fair method of evaluation.

Cheers

Much of what has been said is absolutely true.  But allow me to say, first decide what are the possibilities of both programs and measure them against what sort of art or style you are interested in.  Then d/l both demos and find which best suites the way you work.  Then lastly, look at lots of the images in the galleries to see what the possibilities of each program are and see, again, which best suites your abilities and tastes.

I agree with everything stated above... one other option not said here.... they both have lower end versions for much less money... demo's are ok but you really need a manual of some sort to really try a program... now if you are looking for landscapes.. vue is still far better... but crashes a LOT!!! wierd things happen in Vue. Carrara does everything well, but nothing really great, but allows you to model your own items. personally.. if you are just starting out.. save a few buck and get Vue Esprit and the carrara regular.... allows you to model, and do landscapes. Items modeled in carrara can be imported to Vue with ease for landscape renders carrara still has a better renderer for everything but landscapes.

Both are landscape renderers, plant generators, ecosystem builders, and so on. In addition to demos check galleries, especially those of artists who post in both. I've got one scene I rendered in both: 'Temple Furrette :) (furred nudity)': Carrara | Vue Give a look to the landscapes comparred against each other, and to interior shots against each other. Vue has better light effects, true ray tracing, and volumetric atmospheres. Carrara regular includes these things: Carrara regular includes these things:

• A spline modeler
• A nurbs modeler
• A metaball modeler
• A particle generator
• Nothing beats Vue's plants up close, but you have to get a plugin or buy infinite to make your own. A plant designer comes with Carrara regular.
• An ecosystem (only in Vue infinite)
• Anything glows (see my 'Space Vixen')
• Shaped lights - the source of light is not one point, but an area you shape
• ability to repose and rebone a figure from within Carrara - no reimport needed.
• Ability to make morphs with the vertex modeler (which while sub-par elsewhere, is the best morph maker -I- have used).
• better terrain generation, and easier to tweak (however Vue's choice of a default zero-edge peak is nicer).

Further Carrara has these things also seen in Hexagon, but not in Vue: - A primitive Vertex modeler (Hexagons is vastly better)

• A UV mapper (Hexagon's is better I hear)

Vue's light effects are render time, Carrara's are done post work. One failing of Carrara's is that if there is anything between the course of the effect and the camera the effect will fail, even if the something between is fully transparent. For me, this is one of the major reasons Vue is a better renderer. I do a lot of light efects.

Attached Link: http://www.digitalcarversguild.com/

forgot to say - i don't model, but i did buy hexagon for 2 bucks. love esther

yaa.. like I said.. right now you can have both.. carrara 5 and Vue esprit for under $4oo by buying the download versions of both pretty good deal, then decide which one you want to upgrade to pro/inf after a few months, buy the upgrade at the time and you're all set :)

Attached Link: http://www.eovia.com/products/carrara5/carrara_full_features.asp

Quote - i have both and wouldn't be without either. i like carrara's rendering better, and i like the toon render plugin i bought from www.digitalcarversguild for carrara so lately i've been using carrara a lot, i wouldn't be without my vue though. i never render in poser. love esther

Don't they have great plug-ins?  I really think they help round out Carrara's virsitlity.  I bought the Power Pack when I got Carrara 4 and then picked up Noir, Toon Pro!, Parchment and Wireframe Pro.  I figured I would get around to the rest as I got to a point where I could use them.  I've seen an image done with what appears to be a new Terrain plug-in.  That I can't wait to see.  I understand they just released a new shader plug-in.

I have both and like both of them for different needs, For example Vue has better plant generation for the eco system each instance is a new gen of the base plant so each instance is unique.

Carrara has more control for placement and some options to change random scale and size as well as rotation of the object but its still a copy of the origonal object.

I am using Carrara more and more, Vue is a great package but way to many patches and still problems (I still cant export a plant object properly) I use Vue mostly to make .hdr for Carrara.

You dont need Carrara 5 Pro as Standard will do what you need.

Here's just another thought, (and the reason I chose Vue over Carrara). Check out the renderings in the respective galleries...not just average renderings, but the best ones. Great renderings inspire me. Especially check out some of these:

erka
czarnyrobert
thomaskrahn
garyandcatherine
sacada

When you see some of those renderings, you know what the software is capable of. I've yet to see the equivalent in Carrara. Now, I know Vue is only a tool, and any tool in the right hands yada yada, but the tool does affect the outcome. If I only have a hammer and wood, I build my house differently from someone who has metal and a torch.

The way I see it, as a person looking at acquiring another tool is that as fine a renderer and landscape modeller as it is,[and it is the best I've tried] it still has no polygon modelling ability and to me, as a modeller as well as a 'landscape painter' 3D guy, that's a definate lack...If you want the whole panalopy of tools available to you, well you will just have to invest in a modelling app as well,[even a basic one as Vue's texturing ability has really matured], at least for the types of things booleans are too cumbersone to use for building.

When you see some of those renderings, you know what the software is capable of. I've yet to see the equivalent in Carrara.

Keep in mind that most of the 'old'Carrara users shun Renderosity for some reason, they post their work elsewhere. But you may want to keep an eye on the Carrara forums, since a number of new users are starting to post there.

Also most artist you reference are truly awesome, but keep one thing in mind, they DO NOT use Vue for modeling at all. They either depend on a different application or on othe peoples models. Check out this image, created with Carrara 5. This, imo, is just as good as the Vue artist you mentioned

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1228440

But.... read the artist his comment on his work: Almost everything was modeled in carrara's vertex modeler,and carrara was used for the sky,trees,terrain and lighting effects. The two people were modeled in hexagon and posed in Carrara.

Try doing that in Vue Infinite...... This image shows what Carrara can do, if you got the skills to do it, and it's for sure not inferior to Vue Infnite.

Got to say that is an awesome piece of work no matter what program it was made in. :)
  I think its more in what the user can do than what the application can do and this proves it. :)

As the old saying goes...it's not the brush[softwear] it's the artist...

" you don't see me in the Carrara forum, inviting people to ditch carrara for vue. - agiel

...and so I replied to Agiel by IM-- (since the thread was locked...)

Actually I am not trying to get anyone to ditch Vue! I plan to continue using it for what it's good for- plants and ecosystems primarily. That is, I think, the general consensus among those who have become Carrara users- using Carrara for what is good for- AND using Vue also...

I realize now that my hopes for what E-on might have added to Vue 5 have been too idealistic. And Vue 6 will only cover enough ground to try to get people to buy and ungrade.

I probably should have bought Carrara sooner- and let off more of my steam then- but DAZ's sale finally tempted me- and once I saw what I wanted in Vue- was in CARRARA- that DID IT for me.

I only wish E-on could have done some of these things- instead of seeking to become primarily a plug-in for MAX, LW, etc.

With DAZ taking over Carrara- and the likely bundles, sales, deals etc that will make Carrara a marketing powerhouse --and with Eovia's software team which seems that they really can NOW pull off fixing Bryce, DAZ Studio-- maybe E-on's plan to be a high end plug-in is their BEST and maybe ONLY HOPE for survivial in what is now going to be an extremely TOUGHER sales and marketing environment.

It would probably be a really good thing if E-on could find a partner that would give it the SALES-MARKETING and PR lift up that it really needs. The only likely partner is e-frontier I guess. I think marketing-wise DAZ is the 800 pound Gorilla in the room...

Veritas

...Toon picture done with Carrara's built-in Toon Render..

But I need to have illustrations as part of my 3D work-flow- as they actually are bigger money-maker's for me -than realistic scenery- so Carrara 5's NPR features are exactly what I've been looking for...

Humvee done with Carrara 5's built-in Non Photorealistic Render (an absolutely fantastic piece of 3D efx programming- something E-on "COULD" have made for Vue too...

Frankly, I'm getting tired of these people promoting Carrara on the Vue forum. It's a free world, for cripe's sake! Not everybody wants to use Carrara. I bought a copy but gave up on it pretty soon. It's not for me, but I'm happy if it works for you - provided you keep your joy to the Carrara forum. 

Believe it or not, some people enjoy Vue and are happy with the what e-on is doing.

Veritas, please post your Carrara images in the Carrara forum. I believe that's what it's there for? I hate to unsubscribe from threads, but you've successfully hijacked this one. Congrats.

-Chipp

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=Patrick%5F210

I haven't high-jacked this thread at all- the subject is Vue 5 vs Carrara 5- and I'm a long-time Vue user who has a right to add my $1.35.

How is making legitmate comparisons between Vue and Carrara a "crime" here? If you REALLY want to see some very nice Carrara landscape renders- check out Patrick_210's gallery here at Renderosity. Some very BEAUTIFUL LANDSCAPES that rival ANYTHING done in Vue...

He is already beta-testing a new Carrara plug-in that will, by many accounts, rival some of the best stuff anyone has made with Vue so far- which includes ocean SURF EFX. This plug-in will be released through Digital Carver's Guild...

It's amazing to me the very large number of Carrara users already HERE in the Vue Forum- not to mention Agiel, who is a longtime Carrara user.

heh- I'm just CATCHING UP to where most of the other Vue user base is at- becoming a Carrara user...

Attached Link: http://www.carrara3d.com/3d_gallery_piren.html

...can Carrara do "water"??? Take a LOOK...

Attached Link: http://www.digitalanarchy.com/aurora/aurora_main.html

Allow me to present heresies. I have both Carrara and Vue5Inf. My conclusions: 1. Vue5 final images are superb and (for photorealistic considerations) are superior to Carrara. 2. Vue is full of bugs which hinder the creative process. 3. Vue cannot be used for professional animations, but Carrara can. (e.g. body axes for moving objects, ease-in/ease-out for each segment of an animation path in Carrara but not in Vue) 4. Render nodes in Vue are a disgrace: when a rendering is completed without a crash ( an unusual event), Vue is left in an unstable state, as are the render nodes. After a render, you MUST restart Vue and the nodes if you have a hope of doing another render. Carrara has no such instabilities. 5. Bottom line: If you have a professional production environment, do not depend on Vue. If you can tolerate crashes and instabilities, Vue produces better images. If you want flexible, easy-to-use modelling built in, use Carrara. 6. Tools are tools. Choose the one which gives you whan you want without grief. regards, David, Ottawa

I really like the toon pro pluggin in carrara too. I'm hoping Vue 6 will be able to toon more easily. Love esther

I own both.  Carrara is an application that has a depth that Vue5I cannot match.  Terrain creation in C5Pro is superior, as is the precise application of instanced objects.  Vue surpasses C5Pro in its ability to generate hundreds of thousands of unique individuals of a particular plant and rock.

C5Pro is much more stable than V5I, but both suffer from the lack of a 64 bit OS and the subsequent  lack of sufficient memory address space.  I doubt that I will upgrade to V6I, unless there is good evidence that Vue cleaned up the V5I legacy code, and any new features will actually work -- before over 6 months after release.

One thing that seems to be seriously lacking from Carrara is the auto-updating mini-preview that is such a useful feature of both Vue and Bryce. It means that you can't see the effect of, for instance, changes to the atmosphere until you do a render.

I don't know how anyone can be happy with the restarting of the render cows.  The render cows in vue have had serious problems for years, but they have come some way.  By this time, I am use to the restarting of the cows.  I can usually get away with 3 renders before restarting all of the cows.

I never tried C5pro.

For viewing pleasure, I like vue more, but C5pro looks very good too.

As a long time vue user I am not about to jump ship. I am more than excited to see what Vue 6 has to offer.  When will we know?

I hope they offer matte shadows and a better toon shader.

Yes, I'm excited to see what they've added in 6 too! Vue's always broken new grounds with each release - I can't wait to see what it will be in 6.

I tried C5Pro but was very disapointed. The feature set is impressive alright. It promises a lot, but  in the end, I found it rather, um, shallow. Like an application that's trying to do everything but doesn't manage to do anything really well - it's stretched too thin. But it's definetely worth cojnsidering if you're looking at getting into 3D. If you're serious, I'd recommend Cinema4D or LightWave (they had a great deal with eon until recently).

My 2 cents :-)

Don't expect a better Toon shader or NPR (Non-Photo-Real) from E-on. I've been asking them for this for over two years- before V5 came out- before they got wrapped around the axil with X-Stream.

They told me THEN- "No Problem with doing NPR, Toon EFX"- but it NEVER happened, despite them coming up to the point of introducing Toon Shader capabilities- nothing really usuable was introduced.

I also asked them for support for Piranesi- a higher-end 3D app that allows more sophisticated 3D NPR effects- and was told "No Problem- Vue can do it now" - but the needed export format for Piranesi was never created. This could have gotten E-on MANY new users among the Architectural Design community- but they never completed what would have been a fairly easy, ONE DAY, programming task...

I have switched to using Carrara 5 for their EXCELLENT built-in TOON and NPR rendering EFX. I don't care about using Carrara 5 for any really high-end 3D work. The Toon and NPR rendering effects are already paying-off for me. And the Eovia software team has already placed developing a Piranesi plug-in on their software development agenda- to attract more Architectural users to Carrara 5 (and Carrara 6).

Unfortunately E-on appears to be making Vue into primarily a landscape generator for Higher-end software and doesn't seem to care what their low and mid-range user base wants anymore. Carrara has even passed Vue on with an improved Poser importer- something that once made Vue stand out from Bryce, etc.

E-on has become a closed-door, closed-minded little software company- leaving the low and mid-range market wide open to DAZ-Eovia...

It is not a vital thing for a landscape generator to have a non photorealistic render. I don't expect them to do that, I prefer they concentrate on doing better landscape features rather than gadget like this.

I agree that the piranesi support would be a great plus, Vue would be a good thing for architect, however it is not a feature for low and mid range market, as piranesi is quite expensive ;)

It is funny to see that as eon don't do what you ask they are bad and abandoning the low market...

You have good ideas generally, but please stop the "GIMME, GIMME, GIMME NOW!!!!!" attitude, your parents haven't told you that you can't have everything just when you want it?

As far as I know eon has always been secret on what they are developing, don't it? Wasn't the ecosystem a big surprise? I'm sure they will surprised us once again with the 6! (if you listen to veritas, the surprise will be the end of the Easel and esprit to concentrate on infinite ;) who bet on that? )

Just my  2 cents...

Quote - One thing that seems to be seriously lacking from Carrara is the auto-updating mini-preview that is such a useful feature of both Vue and Bryce. It means that you can't see the effect of, for instance, changes to the atmosphere until you do a render.

Actually, I find the tiny update windows on Vue and Bryce to be pretty usless on anything except very simple scenes.  I just do a quick render with Carrara, as its renderer -- on lower settings, is generally much faster and far more usefull than the Vue or Bryce preview windows.  When doing complex scenes in Vue, I often simply do a quick render rather than w-a-i-t for the tiny window to update.

Quote - Yes, I'm excited to see what they've added in 6 too! Vue's always broken new grounds with each release - I can't wait to see what it will be in 6.

I tried C5Pro but was very disapointed. The feature set is impressive alright. It promises a lot, but  in the end, I found it rather, um, shallow. Like an application that's trying to do everything but doesn't manage to do anything really well - it's stretched too thin. But it's definetely worth cojnsidering if you're looking at getting into 3D. If you're serious, I'd recommend Cinema4D or LightWave (they had a great deal with eon until recently).

My 2 cents :-)

Well, based on inflation your 2 cents is likely worth about $2 nowdays ;-)

I've been using Carrara for years, and doubt you have really dug into its capabilities?  It is not at all shallow, and really (version 5.1) approaches many high-end 3D applications -- doesn't match, just approaches -- which is saying a lot considering its price!

I've been using Vue 4 & 5I for about 2 years now (frankly, I think V4 was the better deal), and I find it difficult to compare the 2 applications as Carrara does many of Vues features better, and is light-years ahead in overall rendering and modeling ability.

Vue is a landscape generator, and is generally much easier to learn compared to Carrara.  I use Vue 5I when I need a lot of plants in an Ecosystem kind of scene.  Lately I have been using GeoControl to create terrains for both Vue and (sometimes) Carrara, as it is better than both applications when it comes to creating terrains.

My $2 ;-)

"but please stop the "GIMME, GIMME, GIMME NOW!!!!!" --Antycon

You've got that ALL WRONG Antycon... this isn't something I want "NOW"- I've been patiently asking and doing everything possible to get these features done within Vue's SECRET SYSTEM. I've exchanged a huge number of emails PRIVATELY with E-on about this for over TWO YEARS.

I've also was one of the very FIRST people to get this Vue forum established, post in it and among the very first to be using POSER models in Vue (which got me attacked by MANY PEOPLE who said I was trying to replace POSER-- or BRYCE - then the BIG FAVORITE 3D Landscape software here...)

I was among the first here to begin posting V5 images with HDRI and explaining how how HDR and LDR could be used for rendering in Vue...

I've also contributed a lot of information to E-on on improving their Terrain module and their problems with mapping, resolution, file import, etc.

I've also contributed a lot of information to E-on on how they could greatly improve their Cloud rendering technology- and tricks that could make it a lot faster- something that in FACT may be showing up in the NEXT RELEASE of Vue...!!!

All of my efforts have been about looking SEVERAL YEARS AHEAD for E-on to make changes that will keep it an exciting and competitive software... I am always thinking AHEAD- because I know it can take one or two YEARS to get features into a major 3D release...

I am the MOST TICKED OFF about the NPR and Piranesi features because I was told a LONG TIME AGO that these would be "no problem" by E-on and it was something they had been playing around with, etc...(they OWN a copy of Piranesi and have used it INTERNALLY at E-on-- they just have never RELEASED the Plug-in!)   The whole point of Piranesi and NPR, as well as TOON SHADERS- is that they have a much wider PROFESSIONAL APPLICATIONS that just some little render that someone is going to tape onto their refrigerator...

If the day ever comes that E-on finally impliments these features in Vue- and they become used in Professional Work- and we see E-on saying " Big 3D Companies, graphic designers and Architects LOVE using our NEW artistic rendering features," ---etc... we will know that it was because SOMEONE kept BUGGING THEM to DO IT!

E-on will ONLY add better clouds, fix their terrain mapping/file issues, and maybe FIX their overall BUGGY software- if enough people keep bring up the issues. ----Just waiting around to be "SURPRISED" is STUPID...

I get the impression that EOVIA doesn't deal in SURPRISES- they closely INTERACT with their users, software developers- and EVEN come to the WEB BOARDS and TALK WITH THEM!!!

Heh- when has E-ON ever decended their THRONE to come out and talk with the MASSES and ask them what they want in the NEXT RELEASE???

Heh- when has E-ON ever decended their THRONE to come out and talk with the MASSES and ask them what they want in the NEXT RELEASE???

Never seen them do that at all, but not many companies do that. They often ask people personally, I've been asked personal by a number of companies, including E-ON, what I would like to see in the next version. Some of my suggestions were implemented into Vue 5, others weren't.

I tried C5Pro but was very disapointed. The feature set is impressive alright. It promises a lot, but  in the end, I found it rather, um, shallow. Like an application that's trying to do everything but doesn't manage to do anything really well - it's stretched too thin. But it's definetely worth cojnsidering if you're looking at getting into 3D. If you're serious, I'd recommend Cinema4D or LightWave (they had a great deal with eon until recently).

I'm not sure if you tried the same applications as I did. I've been a long time Cinema4D user (never liked Lightwave though), but I do prefer using Carrara, but there are a number of features still missing in Carrara. The way Carrara has been growing I'm pretty sure the day will arive that it will outgrow Cinema4D. If you call Carrara shallow, you didn't really give it a good try at all.

One thing that seems to be seriously lacking from Carrara is the auto-updating mini-preview that is such a useful feature of both Vue and Bryce. It means that you can't see the effect of, for instance, changes to the atmosphere until you do a render.

I'm really glad it's lacking, it's the first thing I always switched off in Vue and Bryce. The mini-preview is pretty much useless for larger scenes, especially if you don't own the latest high end pc.