Attached Link: Poser Critic

We kind of had a thread about that before, and at the time I thought I'll see if anyone is interested in a critique gallery. So I made http://posercritic.digitalmagic.tv/ It's still there and if this is something people who want critiques and feedback want to use, just post a request for a gallery on the board and / or PM me to set it up. You have to have an account on the gallery AND on the board (They aren't linked) Not sure if it's something that actually interests people, since there wasn't much feedback last time, but hey... it's there, I'm not taking it down and it could be useful for people. :) If it suddenly gets mega busy, I might need some help but atm it's uhm... not busy lol.

Would there be interest in a tutorial/article/opinion piece on how to give (and receive!) constructive critique?

If people think it would be of use, I'm sure I can put something together...

Karen, I don't think giving/receiving is a problem. The problem is that the best you get in the gallery here is a "Ohh nice I like this" usually. People don't take the time to give feedback in general, and no one can force them. It has nothing to do with being unable to give feedback, it has everything to do with wanting to take the time to give (constructive) feedback. However, I agree that giving, as well as taking, critiques is a skill some people just don't have. :) Pointers would probably be useful, I just have a feeling that most will not even look at such pointers.

I think no one wants to give constructive crits because no one wants to take them. I have given very polite crits in the past only to be PMed and told, basically, to STFU. A vast majority of the posters want nothing but the praise. I barely go to the galleries anymore, partly because of that.

In my view a lot of this comes down to the question of why do people post pictures in the first place. Is it a form of hedonistic pleasure whereby they put their pictures up and sit back waiting to be praised, is it so that they can show what they have learnt and hope that others can give them pointers to how they can better themselves and make even better pictures?

Personally I post pictures in the hope that people will make comments about them that i can then use to further my knowledge, or to fire my imagination in other ways. Some people don't like what I do and in other forums I have been slated for even thinking of using Poser as 'it isn't a professional artists tool.' In that particular forum, unless you have created the model from scratch, then you aren't even worth talking about. That in itself is a fair point if all of the galleries a particular forum are like that. I find that there are two very different types of artist, those who are highly technical and often produce breathtaking models, and those who then take those models and use them to create breathtaking imagery. Each are gifted in their own right, but sometimes there is almost a form of snobbery between them both.

It is dissapointing when you get someone who slags off your work without giving you any sort of reason or criticism, but I find that that is more than made up for by the people who give you real thoughts and comments that help you grow and get stronger. The better your pictures become, the less likely you are to even get any trolling type comments.

When you have an exhibition in a real world gallery and one of your works happens to be vandalised, it's presumably the best thing that could happen to you, ever. The damaged work is covered by the insurance for far more than it's actually worth, the others will sell like cold beer in August. And imagine the press reviews you'll get; from one day to another your work is controversial, and all over sudden you are a visionary. Same is true after an inflammatory comment at Renderosity. Start a thread with a link to your gallery and you will get more hits, comments and pads on you shoulder than you can shake a stick at. Cherish your trolls and feed them well, but make sure never, ever, to admit this in public ;-)

Quote - Cherish your trolls and feed them well, but make sure never, ever, to admit this in public ;-)

LOL, that's one way of thinking about things.

On a serious note I wonder how many people would feel satisfied with an insurance payout for their art? Personally I think I'd be devastated if anything like that happened to my work, cash payout or not. Money can't replace the time, emotion and work that goes into art.

On the digital front I guess it's a bit different, but then again you just need to read some of the horror stories linked to copyright theft to understand that everything around a personal creation is a very emotive subject.

Quote - I think no one wants to give constructive crits because no one wants to take them. I have given very polite crits in the past only to be PMed and told, basically, to STFU. A vast majority of the posters want nothing but the praise. I barely go to the galleries anymore, partly because of that.

You're very welcome to say anything you like about my pics.  Even to point and laugh if that floats your boat.  I strongly believe that a public gallery should be open to all comments, crits, praise, ridicule or whatever occurs.

The problem is that it is hard to keep track of. 1,500 members with a a pile of images going through every day. It is just easier to not say anything :)

Maybe it is easier if people say something like "contrcutive crits welcome" but that is hard to weed out. There used to be a WIP area int eh forums but it died a lonely death (I think).

on another post this was someones reply about filters.

"Will it be possible to have an option to see ONLY the nudes, so I don't have to waste my time wading through all the other crap? "

the part that got me was the "crap" remark. its just so sweeping and dismissive,

Context soutaker, context.

 

perhaps, when the new galleries are unveiled later this week, we'll find that nic has come up with new prefs to allow nudes only :lol: p.s. I know it's just a joke :lol: but I understand they were having a problem with folks posting nudes without using the nudity tag or checkbox, hence it might be an interesting challenge.

Ask and ye shall receive... :biggrin: :thumbupboth:

What's the noun from "perferred" :  a "perference", or a "perfersion" ?

Very nice Karen.

I think it's easy to forget that when you're a newbie, comments and critiques are especially important.  I think the problem is that some of the newer artists are expecting feedback from the galleries rather than using the forums to their advantage.  Also, it's important to not keep every image you've ever posted in your gallery.  Treat it as a porfolio and weed out some of the areas where the learning curve was a bit rougher.  Depending upon the time of day, your location, and what other artists are posting, you must accept that its a crap shoot as far as getting your image viewed or commented on.

As far as content and the nudity discussion goes, I''ll admit that I've been a little frustrated.  There's nothing wrong with doing a nudie pin-up or even having a large portion of nudie pin-ups in your gallery.  The problem is that the way to grow as an artist is to really try new subject matter and use the techniques presented in the forums.  And my frustration is that we've reached a saturation point where the nudity removes attention from the works that might be truly original.  I've noticed that a lot more of the pin-ups are not getting as many views as in the past.  Perhaps this should serve as a clue to move on to another genre.

Quote - Ask and ye shall receive...

Sweet! Thanks Karen...you da bomb!! :thumbupboth:

Quote - There's nothing wrong with doing a nudie pin-up or even having a large portion of nudie pin-ups in your gallery. The problem is that the way to grow as an artist is to really try new subject matter and use the techniques presented in the forums.

That's not necessarily true and it sounds more like another rant against the prevalence of nudes in the galleries. Subject matter has little to do with growth as an artist. Many well known artists specialize in landscape, or still life, or figure and that's all they do. While the forums do present valuable techniques, their use may have only a partial impact on a persons growth as an artist. And one can't limit themselves to what they can learn form a forum. Experimentation is important. The study of light, shape, form, composition, color, style are also important factors; as is the study of traditonal mediums and art history. It is a combination of many things, including being in touch with your own psyche that makes one grow as an artist.

Quote - And my frustration is that we've reached a saturation point where the nudity removes attention from the works that might be truly original.

There is very little in the Poser gallery that is original. It's difficult to find originality when everyone is using the same figures, the same props, the same "canned" poses, the same rendering engine, and the same Photoshop Actions to postwork their images. Much of the gallery is composed of images showing off the latest figures, outfits, scense, and poses purchased from the Platinum Club or the What's Hot section of the Markeplace. The prevalence of nudity, while annoying to some, is only a part of the "white noise" of "look at what I bought this week" images that populate the galleries. Not meaning to offend anyone, but you have to look at the Poser Gallery as a virtual refrigerator door and it's not really fair to complain about what gets "taped" up on it.

Rather than be frustrated, use constructive comments to encourage people to improve their work and grow as artists.

Quote - Subject matter has little to do with growth as an artist. Many well known artists specialize in landscape, or still life, or figure and that's all they do.

Subject matter is a valuable indicator of growth as an artist.  While being stuck in any genre is unfortunate, there is a prevalence of gratuitous nudity for the sake of gratuitous nudity.

Quote - And one can't limit themselves to what they can learn form a forum. Experimentation is important. The study of light, shape, form, composition, color, style are also important factors; as is the study of traditonal mediums and art history. It is a combination of many things, including being in touch with your own psyche that makes one grow as an artist.

I agree, but I think you missed my point in that by asking for assistance in the forums in combination with experimentation can provide assistance for not only that artist but for everyone else who's looking for inspiration.

Quote - Rather than be frustrated, use constructive comments to encourage people to improve their work and grow as artists.

This is another of my issues and why I no longer post critiques of individual artists.  Any time it's suggested that there is too much nudity in the gallery, the discussion is dismissed.

Quote - You're talking about fairness.  There is no such animal.  Stick your pics out there and take a risk.  Some people will love your work, others will hate it.  The majority will be indifferent.  That's the way it is. Nothing fair, honest or nice about any of it.  Shit happens, as they say.

Isn't that the reason why the people with no galleries get that comment? If they haven't taken the risk of putting their images out there, why do they have the right make rude comments on others? They might be no better or worse than what they comment on but they haven't had the courage to put theirs up for public scrutiny unlike the images they are deriding.

The galleries here have nothing to do with fairness that's clear but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable behavior and shouldn't be pointed out when trolls and others comment on the images with agenda's that have nothing to do with the pictures presented.

OTOH sometimes it also can be a misunderstanding. I made a comment that the images in a comic didn't have much to do with the joke that was told in it. I only meant that comics before it and after it had some elements in the images that had to do with the jokes being told but that particular comic didn't and the text of the joke would've been the same without any images  because it had no elements that related to the joke.

Apparently that comment wasn't recieved in the manner I intended it to be since I got an IM saying "I am not interested in reading your comments in my posts.
Please stay out of my future posts and do not post further comments. ...but I will not tolerate condescending comments in posts that I submit to the galleries as you have done with your last comment."

it's a sad commentary when posting images in the gallery is perceived a matter of courage. whatever happened to the idea of sharing one's images with others, just for the joy of it? I've posted many toons (almost all at other sites,e-groups or newsgroups) and if somebody enjoyed them or got a laff outta them, that's enuff for me. whether they comment or not is secondary to that. p.s. karen, thanks for those great new options, but believe me, after 10 years of doing this, I know that they almost never want serious critical comments, even in cases where they appear to be asking for them. anything that can be construed as non-positive is very damaging to the psyche, for all but a very tiny minority.

For what it's worth, I only want fluffy bunnies in my comment section! :thumbupboth: I don't even allow ratings. Why? I'm not doing this to compete with anyone else. I'm doing it for fun, period.  Nasty comments are not the least bit fun. If I wanted nasty comments I'd post to the chicken coop at Poser Pro's and let people blast away at me.

Quote - > Quote - Subject matter has little to do with growth as an artist. Many well known artists specialize in landscape, or still life, or figure and that's all they do.

Subject matter is a valuable indicator of growth as an artist.  While being stuck in any genre is unfortunate, there is a prevalence of gratuitous nudity for the sake of gratuitous nudity.

That's balderdash, subject matter cannot be used as a guage to judge a person's growth as an artist! What a person chooses to paint, draw, or render says nothing about their ability as an artist. Choosing a particular genre in no way indicates one is "stuck" or not growing anymore than a person that chooses to produce in one medium is "stuck" or not growing.

I will not disagree that there is a prevalence of gratuitous nudity for the sake of gratuitous nudity. It may be that you are not considering that a large number of people that post images in the Poser Gallery are "hobbyists" that render to enjoy being expressive and creative and even, at times, tittilating. These people are artistic but not necessarily artists (no offense) in the truest sense of the term. In that light, perhaps you expect too much.

Quote - > Quote - And one can't limit themselves to what they can learn form a forum. Experimentation is important. The study of light, shape, form, composition, color, style are also important factors; as is the study of traditonal mediums and art history. It is a combination of many things, including being in touch with your own psyche that makes one grow as an artist.

I agree, but I think you missed my point in that by asking for assistance in the forums in combination with experimentation can provide assistance for not only that artist but for everyone else who's looking for inspiration.

You didn't make that point. Your point was: "try new subject matter and use the techniques presented in the forums." You didn't say anything about asking for assistance or experimentation.

Quote - > Quote - Rather than be frustrated, use constructive comments to encourage people to improve their work and grow as artists.

This is another of my issues and why I no longer post critiques of individual artists.  Any time it's suggested that there is too much nudity in the gallery, the discussion is dismissed.

Nobody dismissed your suggestion that there is too much nudity in the gallery. You said you were frustrated by the "saturation" of nude images in the galleries and it was suggested that rather than be frustrated, you do something constructive to encourage "originality" and growth. Why that would cause you to cease posting individual critiques is puzzling. 

Fine whatever.

** 4 what it's worth ............. I've almost exclusively gone for human (well as far as a pixellated figure can be) figures.  That, at the moment, is my choice.  I did life drawing for my exams etc, and, as I also was studying anatomy at college level, it dovetailed with my artistic interests.  I suppose I should maybe diversify into urban/rural scapes - some in the gallery are awesome, but at the moment, I'm happy to carry on as is.  To paraphrase the main character from a 60s TV series in the UK "The Prisoner" - "I am not an artist, I'm a free man/woman"**

Sheila

Part of the issue I find here is that many artists really don't WANT to have their work judged. This stands for many other communities as well. For the most part artists seem to want the "great job!" high fives. If you point out technical flaws or are less than totally "supportive" many don't really take the criticism... they get hurt. Who needs the drama just to do someone a favor?

The only real exception seems to be CGTalk. For whatever reason, those folks are amazing in both the level and usefulness of their critique and their ability to actually handle criticism. It may be that the level of professionalism is high. It may be that being a prick or a drama queen on that board can literally prevent you from getting a CG job with any of the bigger studios. That tends to keep people polite and mature :)

Quote - it's a sad commentary when posting images in the gallery is perceived a matter of courage.

We live in a society of human emotional veal. The sheer number of people who consider any level of interaction with the universe that isn't covered in hearts and flowers to be "traumatic" is simply horrifying to me. Personally I blame the prevailence of the therapy culture, but what do I know? :)

Given that level of protection so many seam to demand from common life problems why would it shock you that people will use a word like "courage" for braving the hideous danger of a negative comment from a total stranger? My god man, don't you know how much those can ... umm.... oh wait, I can't manage to care at all mostly. But other people seem to be scarred for life by them.

What do I know, I live in a world where many people whose blogs I read use the word "triggered" (as in trauma flash back) to describe the cover of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. Whats more, the honestly expect the entire rest of the world to be responsible for making sure they never see an image that bothers them.

It's amazing.

We live in a society of human emotional veal.

We do?   :¬)

This discussion has mutated from it's original content to a discussion about being able to accept criticizm or handling a critique.    The original poster didn't say they didn't want constructive criticizm they said they didn't want drive-by, one-line slaps that contain absolutely no content.    And   "this sucks"  is exactly that, not criticizm. 

Should anyone have to put up with that simply because they posted in a public forum/gallery?  No.  With the ability to use freedom of speech comes responsibility and anyone who can't back up their written comment with actual, and more importantly mature, reasons isn't worth being allowed to comment.    Tell me something sucks, although I'd prefer a more mature approach, but tell me why.

I leave the comments on because I am a newbie and I like to hear people's comments because it helps to me learn and improve, luckily so far I have not received any bad comments, but what I think is, whoever is being an a**le - it is there problem not yours. Take it with a grain of salt and use it as motivation to improve. I mean of course if someone is simply saying "this is st there is not a lot you can do with that, and it just means that person is too imature to actually provide you with constructive criticism. I am not afraid of bad comments, but I think that people should stop and think about the comments they make. I mean the person who posts a picture for comment - well speaking for myself, quite emotionally attatched to the picture and I think it takes guts to put your work out there for others to critique. There is a person attatched to that picture so to speak and I think those making comments should remember that some people are hurt by nasty comments. Anyway I am rabbling now so.. that's my two cents

Isn't that the reason why the people with no galleries get that comment? If they haven't taken the risk of putting their images out there, why do they have the right make rude comments on others?

 

they have  the right  to comment but not to be rude. however, if  you think someone saying they're not keen on a piece is rude then you shouldn't put stuff up for comment. and it shouldn't be about courage. we do a piece we show it, people may or may not comment...why is courage needed.

you can read a book and comment on it but does that mean you have to be a published author before you do so. no it doesn't. and anyone who places a pic in a gallery has to accept any and all comments as long as they stay within the bounds of respect.

i'm with you about people not being able in the main to take real crit about their work. i write poetry and saw so much back slapping and fawning over work that was utter shite i withdrew from them. if they got fair critique they would go into tizzyfits and say you were trolling. lol. every other critique was...what a lovely poem...i wanted to vomit at some of them. i never said i disliked a piece without giving a reason why though. something along the lines  of..the piece didn't work for me because blah blah.......sad thing about art in all it's forms is the creator of a piece always takes commetnts as a personal attack on themselves and not the piece.

 

billy

 

I guess I've been pretty lucky. Over the last few years I've been posting on Rosity I've had :

a) a staggeringly low nipple and butt-cheek count , and

b) no clique membership priviledges

And yet I've yet to have a single image that was trolled in any way. In fact, the only slightly negative comment I've ever received was from a freebie maker who's model of a castle I used in a distant background and forgot to thank him in the credits lol

I think the new commenting options in the galleries are superb. They give the option of disabling potentially hurtful comments ( and I guess certain types of image attract more trolling than others ), but the sad fact of life is some people are just arseholes. They'll crap on you and run for no other reason than because they can. People can really suck sometimes, eh? :unsure: