I am not going to kid myself. I will buy V4 when she comes out. I'm quite looking forward to her. I just hope she has a killer male morph pack :)

Quote - I just find it interesting that this time it's with V4 and not a 3rd party figure...

Actually, V4 is a 3rd-party figure.

If some other 3rd party ever comes out with something better than Victoria -- something TRULY better -- not just called "better" by some because DAZ didn't make it........

*........*if a another 3rd party ever does that: then all bets are off.  But this hypothetical 3rd party will never best Victoria's clout by producing the greatest male model ever made.  The public's tastes are what they are.

Great pictures, bigjobbie.

Well if those pix are accurate then consider this guy as another 'run to buy when it comes out' customer ! Cause at first glance that mesh seems much better then what there is currently in V3, and i would love to use it.

As for the whole 1st party/3rd party/better product thing, i agree with XENO...  I see these occasional spikes for other figures, like recently for that gloria one, but frankly there is no lasting interest. At least not enough to make creating high end products for them a feasible idea. Cause Poser users generally get bored with stuff quite easily and it's quite possible that by the time you make a nice product for a figure, no one will want to buy it anymore cause they'v moved on to the next new thing. Only 'V' remains one of the few constants, mainly because a) DAZ push it very aggressively (like that free base mesh thing) and b) it was the first to the market in a time when we had the over stylized P3/P4 fems. Plus the amount of detail in her bosom surely helps sell her as well :P

again, it's really simple.  name one figure besides v3 that has the merchant support i listed.  but neither miki nor aiko "eat her dust."  for that matter, apollo didn't if anton was honest when he said he sold thousands ( a quote from early in apollo's short life on the market).  they all do really well, especially considering the gap in support.    heck, look at the reaction to gloria.  she doesn't even come with a mouth that opens, let alone full morphs.  she's had just about no marketing, and even with the recent boom trails vicky by miles in support.  but she's popular now.  and then there's the popularity of the recent sumo model.  looking at all of these figures shortcomings, and daz's incredible marketing efforts and how many products they buy, and their relative popularity compared to v3, i'd have to say quite the opposite.  that the market is starved for something different, but keeps getting more of the same.

different than vicky isn't baboon meat.  it's wanting more to your diet than mac & cheese everyday.

the only figures i've seen fail are the ones that try to play the same game (or are simply not good enough - by miles).  no one needs vicky knock-offs.

this community is merchant driven.   people buy more than they can use, because merchants keep coming out with stuff that looks cool.  when they stop coming out with cool stuff for a figure, people walk away.

but like i said, it's circular.  it's also a matter of belief.   it's a lot of things, none of which have anything to do with how v3 actually looks and everything to do with the market.

V3 is more the Meat and 3 Veg of the poser world...she has more nutritional value than a big mac or nasty macaroni and cheese.

I think it's fine that the market has a "standard" figure that other figures can be judged against, be they inferior or superior or be an exotic alternative. It provides a stable "middleground" for merchants to venture out from at the very least. 

It's better that than a mad scramble with each new figure that comes out to exploit that window of interest (or lay a bet against continuing popularity) - is it even a sure thing that if Daz or Vicki was absent from the marketplace that there would be any sort of dominant figure at all (let alone a marketplace to support the level of new figures we DO see these days)?

Cheers

sorry, i don't see much "nutritional value" (i like that term) in v3.  if it weren't for her 3rd party add-ons, i'd never glance at her.  actually, (imo) they're the cheese, v3 is just the plain bleached noodles.  and i think the "standard" figure helps lend to the lack of diversity in poser work, which in turn feeds a fairly negative external view of poser work, even outside of cgsociety.  and i don't see a difference in a mad scamble to get a new figure compared to the mad scramble to get the new vicky add-on from one of the merchants i mentioned (or a few other most popular merchants).  except that one ends up with at least a possibility of diversity, and the other ends up with more of the same (unless it's a really stellar morph set).  that said, i can see your point.  that is, i can see why merchants would value the stability (in other words, everybody buying and using the same stuff).  i don't so much myself (see above for negative view of poser artists' creativity), but it probably makes merchants more money (which is very good).  it certainly is easier for merchants if they can count on their product selling, and almost anything skimpy or skintight for v3 will sell.

then again, maybe not, since the dominance of daz has meant they could leverage two things to drive their sales besides the v3 feedback loop: low prices and aggressive marketing.  hence the prevalence of terms like "dazaholics" and statements like "i'm broke, but i saved tons."  if apollo had come out when v2 was first released, i doubt anyone would have said anything about the price.   on the other hand, people can keep reusing levius' photos and merchant resources to make tons of permutations of v3 textures, so i guess the change in the market more than evens out.  ;)

Dog Years:

Well if you've seen the V3-Male morph set you could say Apollo did make an appearance back then - Anton did both and the family resemblance is striking heheh. Anyway, I think it's a bit unfair to be judging V3 by today's standards and in comparison to Apollo (because maybe we wouldn't have those standards without V3 being there to set them originally - and in Poser/CG/Computer Tech years she's ancient!).

The first taste is with the eye:

There's no doubt Apollo is the better figure technically - but lacked a certain "something" in his default appearance that the wider buying collective didn't take to (my arguement is that Anton should've sold him with a "fake default" pretty-boy face to get that impulse-purchase sales element). Myself and many others obviously didn't care about that realising that any number of cool and original-looking character were a mere few dial-twiddles away.

The make-art button:

I think that enough can't be said for a "standard" figure and it's importance to the marketplace though - something your average or beginner user can pick up and run with straight away and start getting something that looks a little like their favourite sort of art...

Fancy pants:

Mind you I've been using M2 alot lately for a job because he can wear all the old Poserstyle period clothing (WW tends to mung them up too much), so I guess when Poser gets it's coding fixed and D|S goes super-serious and things like  "universal dynamic one-click clothing" is implemented (in that any complex clothing mesh can be draped without crashing etc) the fight will be truly on between figures with superior bending/posing abilities rather than their impressive one-click wardrobe.

I'd rather play video games:

I think that "one click" aspect can't be over-estimated as a market force also. Like WW is a work of genius but I'm still more likely to swap a head than a costume to get a look I'm after than take the time to do a sweet conversion...

Cheers

Sorry, but demand isn't "caused" by the readily available supply of something.  There's an awful lot of beetles to be had -- but the demand for commercial supplies of them is somewhat limited.

Marketing folks know what sells.  If a fortune could be made by offering Apollo add-ons to the market at large: then believe me -- we'd see a ton of Apollo offerings spring up overnight.

BTW - in the real world, it seems that I've heard a statistic that the ratio of women's clothing stores vs. men's clothing stores is something like 4-to-1.  Although I personally have a hard time believing that it's not actually more like 7-to-1.  I suppose that the clothing manufacturers just don't realize that they could drastically increase the demand for men's clothes by making lots more of them for sale.  Someone should contact all of the marketing departments of the various clothing manufacturer's and inform them of their mistake.

um, yeah, right.  women are just biologically predisposed to like clothes.  it has nothing at all to do with marketing and socialization.

if all the forces marshalled to marketing to women were used on men, yeah, the demand would be there.   but since all the marketing forces (including hollywood and mtv) won't, it won't happen.

again, it's about quality and popularity.  someone comes out with something well designed that looks good, and people want it. from designer clothes for babies to silly little scooters to pet rocks for god's sake.  or ipods.   if only the people who had had walkmen or other portable music players in the first place (people with the demand) had bought ipods, apple wouldn't have made much money.  most people bought not only the ipod, but as was pointed out to me in a talk on marketing, but the nano, a smaller, less functional version of the ipod.  existing ipod users lined up around the block to buy them.   because they existed and were deemed "cool." 

everything i've ever read of marketing, in fact or in fiction, has focused on the fact that it's about creating demand and convincing people they need something.  not passively waiting for someone to want something, then giving that to them. 

in poserdom, demand is caused by availability, product quality and decent marketing.  if it weren't, and people only bought what they wanted before the items came out and what they could (and will) use, the markets would close due to lack of income.   poser users in this community consume far more than they use.  hence the common problem of buying an item twice and that of finding that something had been purchased but never installed and then forgotten.  if there was a true initial demand, people wouldn't forget about something as soon as they acquire it so frequently.

and tons of merchants did make stuff for apollo.  and anton said he sold over a thousand  copies.  since i've heard the active poser community's numbers as only a couple or so thousand (though i don't know where that comes from, people have stated it with authority) and assuming that's true, that's a huge saturation for an independent party male product.

i stand by my statement.  if those merchants all support a figure, i'd be willing to bet that the figure will do well.  if in addition, another 20 of the most popular merchants support a figure, it's a slam dunk.  but only if all of them do it.  otherwise, people will become hopeful and only a few will buy the cool new  stuff for the cool new figure.   and then when they see support drop off, everyone will lose interest.

actually it's probably just a bias that keeps marketers from hitting men hard in the area of clothes.  when the tobacco industry saturated the asian male market but had almost none of the female market, they deliberately poured money into creating the demand among women.  they did the same in this country, but much earlier. both campaigns were highly successful.  but those foolish marketers, they tried to sell what they wanted to sell instead of what was demanded.  if they followed your advice, they would have been billions poorer but so much more wise.  someone should tell them what a mistake they made.

Cigarettes are a product which sell themselves to certain people.  Much like V3.  There's a demand: so there's an industry which supplies that demand.  And sure: you can lure people to some extent with advertising.  But advertising only goes just so far.  You can advertise the proverbial baboon meat all day long -- but it ain't ever gonna sell.

There's a reason why the vast majority of grocery-store mass market magazine covers feature pictures of attractive young women.  Both the magazines intended for men and the magazines intended for women do this.  And there's also a reason why the Poser market looks like it does.  A reason that's got nothing to do with an insufficient supply of clothing for Apollo or M3........or for Matt & Maddie.

The matter is so obvious as to be a truism.  Sort of like the world being round.

I recall certain vegan groups not too long ago staging protests demanding that fast-food outlets like McDonald's start offering veggie burgers on their menus.  It was suggested to them that if there was such a demand for veggie burgers, then they needed to open up a chain of restaurants selling them.  No one took up the idea & ran with it.  Or at least if they did: we've never heard anything more about them.

Don't get me wrong: there's a need for clothing for M3 and the others.  It's just that it'll never sell at anything like the level that Victoria's clothing does.  Sorry.....but some truisms are true.  Opposing circular arguments notwithstanding.  Chicken & egg type arguments - which came first, the demand or the supply?  I'd submit that 99 times out of 100 -- it's the demand.

2000 Poser users, no matter how addicted, wouldn't be a sufficient number to keep this small industry alive.  Trust me -- there are far, far, FAR more than 2000.  And most of them have Victoria in their runtimes.

well, i think this kind of ends it.  because i just disagree, and i don't think we'll come to any resolution.  i'd say that 99.9% of the time it's about marketing.  before marketing, tobacco was used occassionally and religiously by people in the americas.  after marketing, it's an addiction. 

and the whole reason the tobacco industry had turned to asian women was because they had hit an above 90% saturation level with men (i think it was actually 99%).  not so much "certain kinds of people."  

but this is just more of me (and you) stating the same things over and over. 

and um, i would bet that poser users are an entirely different market than what i was talking about.  i was speaking of the active purchasing community.  if you want to talk poser users, i'd bet on a minority of people having victoria (though i'd be loathe to place money down).  i've watched about 5 years of the same class being taught where one of the software items learned by students was poser.  many continue  to use it after the class.   every single student i've shown poser products and communties has been turned off by the style and content of the artwork and products (commercial and free), and all have used the default figures.  none were interested in the slightest in frequenting any poser sites, let alone buying anything.  i'm sure tons of people learn poser or come across it for various reasons and either don't get into content collection or don't buy anything at all.

heck, i showed someone at work the free figures available- he was looking for meshes for someone else to bone to do some animations.  he wasn't interested in any of the daz or free zygote human meshes, and instead went with a custom built one.  it wasn't better but it was different.

as for the 2000 people number - don't know what to tell you.  next time i see someone quote that, i'll point them to you.  i think i've seen people who quote that number (that and 3000) mention surveys and have some sort of background knowledge, but it could just be a myth perpetuating through the community (i've seen it several times).  everything i've witnessed, however, indicates that all the figures i've mentioned have a surprisingly large portion of the market and they only thing they have is a different look.

and many products in general live and die by their support.

Any addictive substance (e.g. tobacco) has to have some sort of an allure to it in order to be addictive.  People don't become addicted to smoking sawdust.  No matter how heavily sawdust is advertised to them as a cool smoke.

I'll venture another prediction.  One year from today, the "Victoria of the moment" (V4?) will be dominating the market.  Ten years from today the same.  Assuming that the world hasn't fallen apart by then.

well, that's an easy prediction to make.  i never said that wasn't true.  but here's another: if none of the merchants i listed made v4 products, if no merchants said they would support v4, and v4 received no non-daz support, she wouldn't be the standard. 

it has absolutely nothing at all to do with how vicky looks.  it has to do with her being the best supported figure.  as long as everyone believes she's the most popular, she will be.

and that allure you mentioned is created by marketing.  most everyone's first experience with tobacco is unpleasant and involves choking and coughing.  and smoking sawdust isn't any more foolish than other things we do because we're sold on it.

The allure of tobacco comes from several intangible factors:  it's "forbidden fruit" (always very enticing to people); it proves that one is an "adult"; it proves that one is "independent" (ha, ha); some consider it to be stylish; some actually like the taste (ugh); some actually like the smell (ugh); it serves as an adult pacifier; it's a nervous habit; once hooked, nicotine is physically addictive........and so forth.  Smoking sawdust is none of these things.  And no amount of advertising will convince anyone that it is.

The allure of "Forbidden fruit", "coolness", and "independence" can easily overcome the initial coughing fits involved in smoking.......to the later sorrow of many.  Allure isn't always a good thing -- often it's just the bait covering the hook underneath.

The merchants will support V4 because they know that items created for V4 will sell.  And it's all because of the intrinsic allure of the thing itself.  Not because of the ready supply of items.

Why doesn't someone try opening up a store which sells nothing but items for so-called "3rd party" figures?  They should make a mint.......if certain thinking actually applies.

all of those aspects you mentioned are marketing.  tobacco unmarketed was none of those things.  

you talk like all these things are inherent properties instead of social and cultural constructs largely built by companies needing to sell a product.

people marketed rocks as pets.  twice in the last century.

and it would only work if merchants worked together (for whatever reason, there's no incentive to now), not "someone".  as i've said from the beginning, if the 20 or 40 most popular merchants support a figure, it will do well.  but it would take that many of the most popular, not one or two lone merchants.  so please don't bring up the lone merchant scenario yet again.  i can't see anyone or any circumstance inciting such universal support, but i wouldn't say it's impossible.

me, i have no idea what will happen in the future so i wouldn't bet.  maybe eF will be acquired and poser will be dicontinued altogether.  maybe some programmers we don't even know about will revolutionize 3d character creation, posing and rigging.  maybe one of the big players in 3d will see this as an untapped market, move in and take over.  a year might be a safe bet, but i wouldn't go further than that.

and just to say, i'm stopping now (or mean to).  before i was biding time, but now i'm just not getting stuff done. 

it was fun disagreeing entirely with you.  i wish you well.

Quote - me, i have no idea what will happen in the future so i wouldn't bet.  maybe eF will be acquired and poser will be dicontinued altogether.  maybe some programmers we don't even know about will revolutionize 3d character creation, posing and rigging.  maybe one of the big players in 3d will see this as an untapped market, move in and take over.  a year might be a safe bet, but i wouldn't go further than that.

And maybe the Middle East will explode into a general war and make all of this a moot point.  Hey -- look on the bright side of things, that's what I say.  

Quote - and just to say, i'm stopping now (or mean to).  before i was biding time, but now i'm just not getting stuff done. 

Yes.....after awhile forum disagreements like this can turn into a true waste of time.

Now see there........we agree on something ! :biggrin:  Forum debates should be taken for what they are worth.  And frankly, the central subject of this one isn't exactly what I would call earth-shaking for its importance in the greater scheme of things.  And right now, I've got some work to do, too.

Quote - it was fun disagreeing entirely with you.  i wish you well.

Same here.  Perhaps we'll do it again sometime.  :woot:

Victoria 4 will be more popular than V3.

Victoria 4 will come in 2 mesh resolutions.  She is entirely new mesh - from scratch. DAZ said so at the fartzone chat, which is available for public view -- all you have to do is go and look. While it doesn't say tons, what it does say is a lot.

Victoria 4 will change a lot of minds herein -- on both sides.

Circular systems are closed systems, and as such, do not grow. Since this system is not stagnating but continuing to grow, it is not a circular system, and circular reasoning for it is fundamentally ignorning some other element that affects the outcome.

Poser 7 is sooner than some think, farther than many hope.

If you don't like something enough to comment on it, then get off your rear and do something about it. Learn. Grow. Do. Change.

Although, the allure of sittin around and shootin the breeze is always easier and seems more fun...

Quote - Victoria 4 will be more popular than V3.

No doubt true.  I've never doubted it for a moment.  But some will need to be shown it before they'll believe it.....all patently obvious facts to the contrary........and even when it happens: there will still be those who'll outright deny it.  And then there are those who will reluctantly admit that what's real is real; however, they'll then proceed to attempt to explain the phenomenon away with plausible-sounding but hollow arguments.  That's the usual procedure.  We've got a standard formula to follow here.

Quote - Victoria 4 will change a lot of minds herein -- on both sides.

If she's anything like what I expect: then I won't be changing my mind.

Quote - Circular systems are closed systems, and as such, do not grow. Since this system is not stagnating but continuing to grow, it is not a circular system, and circular reasoning for it is fundamentally ignorning some other element that affects the outcome.

Vicious circles -- bad things.  And yes......I believe that the 3D world is just getting started.  What's been before will be nothing to what's to come.

Quote - Poser 7 is sooner than some think, farther than many hope.

This means that it's not on my computer yet, but maybe it'll be here in time for Christmas morning.  Possibly Christmas morning next year.  But one would hope this year.  It's one of those good news / bad news things.

Quote - If you don't like something enough to comment on it, then get off your rear and do something about it. Learn. Grow. Do. Change.

Although, the allure of sittin around and shootin the breeze is always easier and seems more fun...

Fun is in the eye of the beholder.  So is "doing something".

Ya know, Dan Farr hasn't contacted me yet to consult with me on the design parameters for V4.  And I've left so many messages on his voice mail, too.......

Thanks for the F/Artzone heads-up.

I think V4 release Day/Week will be a fun one for the forums...no doubt equal cries of glee and dismay to accompany to horrendous images of limbs bent to their furthest breaking parameters, expressions stretched to their Munch-like limits...and it will be 2.5 minutes before the first NV4IATWAS hits the galleries...

I gotta load up on pop-corn!

Cheers

Dan's been busy, ya know.  Working hard.  He'll get back to ya.

Really.

2.5 minutes?

That long?

That's for the rendo upload times, mwahaha...