I was reading through some of the forum posts at dp and came across this one that had over 80 replies:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=19948201

Besides being surprised at the harshness of some of the comments, (y'all aren't like that here - I much prefer the friendliness here), I am curious about how folks feel about using DSLR's. I'm saving up to upgrade to a better camera. I've enjoyed my P&S (nikon 7900), but would like to get better images than I am getting. I know I'll never be able to achieve the level of quality that I see in many images here on RR, but I'd like to try to learn to do better, as I really do enjoy photography.

Some folks seemed to indicate that if you are going to buy a SLR, it's a waste of money to shoot in auto mode. To quote them, it's like buying a Ferrari and never going over 50mph and that the poor camera will lead a meaningless life if it isn't used to it's full potential, i.e. manual mode. Some indicated that the image quality is much less if you use auto mode, while others said that is not the case, but you just get better images by learning how to use the manual mode. Some indicated that if all you want is to use the auto mode, then just buy a cheap P&S, and forget spending money on a good SLR, because you don't need more MP and capablilties, and don't need to bother to spend that kind of money.

I couldn't help but feel like that was a slap in the face. I don't know squat about setting aperture, light, DOF, and the other things it takes to get a real quality image. I gather from what I read here at the forums that the better Canons or the D70 are very complicated. There are so many settings, and preferences, plus using the manual mode for each image, that I know it's going to be a real stretch for me to learn all of these things. Heck, I probably use less than a tenth of the capability of my computer. I just do what little I am comfortable with on a pc. And to start out with, I would have to use the auto mode whilst trying to study on how to set the manual modes for the kind of picture, setting, time of day, etc. etc. It's the only thing I have ever done and it's a bit intimidating to think of all the things I have to learn about manual mode. For instance, I know that RAW is the best quality possible, but these folks said it's a waste of time to think about using auto mode with RAW. So it leaves me shaking my head and wondering if most photographers consider those who use auto mode and cheaper cameras as complete dunces.

I'm not trying to start a great debate or argument here. I just wonder what you folks experienced as you upgraded from your earlier, simpler cameras to the more complicated and professional cameras. I wonder how many folks here use auto and how many would never use auto, and whether it's because of quality or because they have many years of experience under their belts and know the settings they want immediately without a doubt. Surely some of you were once unfamiliar with the professional techniques you now use with ease? I don't plan to always use auto mode. But I'm sure it will take me many months to wade through the manual, search the net for tutorials, buy books or whatever, and begin to even understand what they are talking about, and literally years to learn how to take really good photographs! I know I don't need the cameras and lenses that cost many thousands. Y'all have already given me some good advice on cameras and lenses, and thanks for that. But we all have to start somewhere when upgrading to better cameras, don't we?

Any thoughts on this?

Maria

For me, depends on what type of shot I am doing...for moving subjects, I use Servo mode (auto but smarter!)...but macro, I will use manual. Only hint/tip  I can give you is to practise practise practise to hone your skills.  I think when they are saying about quality, they mean focus wise!

quote of the week: auto mode with RAW...heard it all now

my one pounds worth :)

i used to have a point and shoot camera...treated myself to a canon 30D.... i started usin it with auto settings..then tried the other settings and just kept fiddlin round to see what stuff did..... dslrs are definitely worth getting...my pics are way better

Maria

You will not be out of your depth with a DSLR camera nor will it be a waste of money.

All the cameras made for the amateur market have an auto mode and there is absolutely no reason in the world why you should not use it. They also have semi auto modes where you choose one setting and the camera does the rest. Most. the vast majority, of shots you see on sites like this have been taken using these modes and the person who uses manual mode is the rarity.  They are a great rarity amongst professional photographers too ; )

Part of the joy of photography and owning a camera is the learning process.  People take many years to master their cameras, some never want to, preferring to concentrate on the artistic content not the technicalities.  You use the camera how it suits you, what gives you the most enjoyment. 

You will have far more options available to you by owning a DSLR to expand horizons and enhance your hobby. There will always be people willing to help - photographers love talking about their cameras - you just have to be selective in which bits of advice suit you best. 

HTH

Richard.

 

 

 

Joe, zollster, and Richard all make great points. And you can think of it this way. Take a photo with and el-cheapo camera in auto. Then take the same shot with a nice DSLR in auto. Chances are (with all conditions being equal) that you will be getting a higher quality image from the DSLR. A better lense and sensor do make a difference. Take the time to learn about your camera and don't be swayed by the "Full Manual SLR" crowd. There is a bit of an elitist attitude there and though they have a point in as much you might not be using the camera's full potential. But not every situation needs for you to manually adjust all the settings and sometimes you don't have time to. Just enjoy your camera and learn as you go. Trying playing with a different setting each day. :)

yes you can go Auto as many of the functions like Jim mentioned are the only way you will get locked onto a fast moving subject.. When you get a Digital SLR you will soon learn by trial and error what the manual modes and focus in particular can do these are a tad on the crude side compared to your own vision for example a straight line or area of darker contrat will make your auto focus lock onto that or a narrow DOF just has to be on manual to get the very best results..

I certainly agree with the folks who have given advice thus far Go for it you wont regret it and it is the building block towards better photography as you can build on your system as you go..

"But we all have to start somewhere when upgrading to better cameras, don't we?"

As a complete novice my opinions should certainly be taken with a grain of salt, but when I bought my Rebel it was with the knowledge that it wasn't the "best" camera on the market but would be a platform for me to learn.  Those manual and simi-manual features allow me to learn at a pace that I'm comfortable with.

I would say, get one and do what YOU want with it.

Teach me to read it wrong...!!...was thinking about AUTO focusing!...doh!

Manual/Auto mode!....one of my DLSR's  has a Programme mode, the other No Programme mode!
(I guess being its a pro model, they expect you know how to use it

If ya a newbie to DSLR, I would go with AUTO (to get the hang and feel how it 'behaves' ) then progress onto the other modes...a good learning curve and enjoy it. Personally, I use Aperture Prioity all the time!

Thank you very much,  each and everyone for your responses and advice!!  I appreciate it very much.

I couldn't imagine jumping off into the deep end without paddling in the "kiddie pool" for a while first! 

You have confirmed my own thoughts about the learning process, and as Danny and Jim said, trial and error for a while until I get comfortable with all the new settings one needs to pay attention to.  I'm glad to hear that the "elitist attitude" is not the attitude held by all, and that it still a good idea to upgrade and that learning at one's own slow pace is allright, even if I'm not using all the bells and whistles at first. 

You've been a big help.....thanks!!

:) Maria

Doesnt happen overnight Maria...liken it to learning to drive...after a while, becomes natural :)

Manual mode:  NOT better images, but more precise control !!

I say to pple, get to know the camera first, know how it works, understand what Aperture, TV (Time Value, aka Shutter Speed, ISO works then u will begin to understand the Manual mode!

Jim

... thank you Jim!!  Luckily there should be plenty of tuts available on the internet, and then there's always the bookstore or library.  It will take a while to grasp new concepts.   It didn't take too awfully long to learn to drive... but I think this learning curve will be  tad longer.  Hopefully I won't be old and senile before then. :)

Maria

Well, we ALL learnt to walk!

I progressed onto PRO equip from a point and shoot Fuji!

Books help, of course they do, but never digest away from the practical side

The 'elitists' are for the most part photographers who jumped directly from old analog SLR to digital SLR. As the old analog film SLR's were mainly strictly manual, it's no wonder that they continue on the manual path. More than 20 years ago, I was always shooting manual... now, with the DSLR, I'm shooting mostly in Auto or preset modes, except, as Jim already mentioned, for close-ups, which I prefer to shoot in Aperture Priority (in fact that's semi Auto too...). The manual modes are great for 'creative photography', if you want to get precise control over DOF, exposure time etc, to get the effect you had in mind... But for that, there's only one way to go: practice, try & error, learn...

I shoot in 100% manual mode, because I get a lot better photos that way. Believe me, I'd rather just point and click and be done with it, but that just doesn't happen with me. There's always something changing, like a cloud passing by, which in turn kicks up some wind.  Or I'm shooting a humming bird, and a hawk suddenly lands on a branch three feet away. The aperature  and shutter speed priority modes don't work since I tend to change both depending on the circumstance. Sometimes I might sacrifice shutter speed for aperature, or vice versa.

Keep in mind that I'm pure amateur and I shoot nature stuff. I would think different styles would call for different approaches. If you're shooting indoor portraits for example, one of the portrait modes, or even one of the priority modes would work just fine.

 

 

Hi Maria:b_tonguewink:,

**Well i started with the nikon coolpix. Than decided to try DSLR. So bought the Canon Rebel 300D. It was great for learning. And spent money on new lens.Now i have the Canon 20D. I found the rebel good to learn buy. I shoot alot of my photos on auto still. Specially sport and movement. Imagine seeing a frog and set my camera to what setting i want. Well he be gone. **

But macro i do use manual mode. Focus is alot better and i like the results. For example water droplets. Also landscapes are manual because scene allows me time to play with setting. Waterfall need shutterspeed to be correct for the affect i want.

Each to their own. Some have spent alot of money on their equipment. But what results do they get any better? Think alot is your imagination,luck and experience. I will spend hours taking one subject. To me practice like Jim said, is so important. And hey is fun to. With the digital you can take hundreds of shots and doesnt cost anything but your time.

I dont alter my photos much at all where as some do. Does that make them a better photographer? But as some members on here will agree with me. I ask alot of questions. Some are professional photographers and you can learn so much by asking questions. If they genuine person they will love to help.

So if i can help in anyway please dont hesitate to be in contact with me. As i am still learning and think i always will:)

Takecare and have fun

Chris:)

Girsempa, Fuzzy, and Chris....

Thanks for your replies.  Sorry to be late... I have not gotten any ebots today at all telling me that there was a response to this thread!

I didn't realize there was an aperture priority (semi-auto) mode like you use for macro.  I'm looking forward to looking that up.  (Note to self: go back to DPReview and check if the canon and nikon models have that.)  And I wish I could watch you work Fuzzy.  I'll be lucky to ever get the hang of shooting manual all the time.

Chris, so you used a coolpix, too. Cool! Your next point is just what I have been wondering about.  While Fuzzy shoots manual all the time, if it's wildlife or a living creature, I'm afraid it would be long gone before I got the settings all set. :)  I'm so glad you confirmed my thoughts on that one.  I can't imagine fuddling for minutes trying to adjust settings - I would get in a hurry and get befuddled just knowing the bird or whatever is fixing to fly away, and end up being all thumbs! :)  I can see where nature shots, waterfalls, etc. would give you more time to adjust the settings or take the same shot under different settings to experiment with what works best.  With as nice a camera as you have, I would imagine that you don't need to alter or PW all that much, as you probably get a very high quality image the first time.  I don't PW ~all that much, just adjust the saturation, levels, etc. and sharpen a little.

Y'all have been so kind.  Thanks so much!!  I'm sure I'll have lots of questions, when the time comes, about how to do this and that.  Thanks for the suggestions and offers of help.  I still say Renderosity rocks!!!  I never did get around to opening an account at DevArt.... cuz this place feels like home!!

Thanks again----

Maria

Oh Maria that is so nice.

** Yes is a friendly site and because we all have same interest which makes it extra special. We love our camera:)**

Chris:b_tonguewink:

You said..."... I gather from what I read here at the forums that the better Canons or the D70 are very complicated. There are so many settings, and preferences, plus using the manual mode for each image, that I know it's going to be a real stretch for me to learn all of these things."

In truth, these cameras are not that complicated! I shot some film years ago then went to a Minolta point and shoot, but I did use manual focus for macros and other over rides when needed. It was only time and trying things out. Then, to a D70 which is my carry-cam and now a D200 which I love and it is ergonomically superior with less to fool with than the D70.  I have real control with either of the Nikons and that came with time and trying different settings.

You can get a good DSLR and be quite happy with it!  My coworker is impaired in some  ways but has figured the camera out his own way and does great with his Nikon D50.  That camera does quite well.

Do not be intimitaded by the "menus".  Defaults work pretty well at first with little menu messing. Then in time, you might want to eliminate "in camera sharpening" to get a better shot without halos on some shots when a contrasty shot, like a black bird against a lighter background is taken. Do the shapening in a photo editing program.

I likely use very little of the menu options...I go for simple and set things up to start then just take the pics.  Auto exposure is ok.  Most of the time I use this. The choices are arperture or shutter and still this is Auto!  You get to choose the depth of field(what is in focus and what is not at the exposure) or shutter(what is stop action or what is blurry from movement).  The exposure is still auto and a light meter and manual exposure is not needed.  This still gives you tremendous versatilaity.

Beleive me, from the great comments said so far, it is not a problem. Sure, at first the cams are a little intimidating.  Just ask here for advice! Someone will answer!   Most of the menu is useless for me and will likely be for you, too. Still, you do have to make a few choices. We can help with that understanding of what the camera is asking of you.  With time you will certainly find your means and stick with it, pretty much forgetting the menu at that point

Go for it lady!.

Tom...

You've given me a lot of good, useful information there!  Thanks so much!  I'll save this thread for future reference.  I saw a lady using a D50 just today and had a look at it.  Sweet camera! 

Thanks a bunch, I appreciate the time you took to write that 

..... Maria

Lots of good advice here!

The auto functions on these cams work very very well...and can be used for most situations.  Do they work all the time?...No  Does manual work all the time?...No

Using manual mode does give you much more creative flexibility and is used for difficult lighting situations.  With some experience and a few shutter releases you will find yourself experimenting more and more with the manual features of these cams....and with time you will very likely be shooting in that mode most often.

Do not get scared off about the complexity of these cams....if you wish, you can leave the dial on auto all the time and get many many good shots.  But the good news is that when the urge to experiment is there....all you need to do is turn the dials a bit.....

Have fun with your camera quest!

 i loved reading this .. and thank you for it .. i have been using the nikon 7900 ( but have snuck my slr canon out a few times shhh supposed to be for my birthday in oct.. i found that i liked to put it on manuel  focusing it myself..and get my hands on it and be in control  i put on everymode ..and  tryed differant things in just the short time i had it.
and wanted to leave it on the shelf . i hated it for two days . it was my enemy . My nikon 7900  i knew it like an old friend.
haha
then i thought about all the times i couldnt get the milky waterfall  or the preformance from 40 feet away.... ( got an extra 28 -200zoom lense )
 then i let go .
said to myself com' on dont stress take it on auto if you have to
 tryed that
but got bored
wanna play haha...
 sooo ( whispers)
lol when mikes not around i sneak t out of the box on the shelf and play .
take a pic of my foot haha..
i am just going to keep it that way  (play with cam not foot lol)
let go and  have fun
 so what if its on auto
 you can get a good shot with your eye and great lighting and compo
 dont worry what the hell anyone says
 just have fun. thats why we are here hehe..  i am excited about learning
but if you dont want to then just put it on auto
my sis gets great shots like that..
but i bet after a while you will want more!!
 love you all
 thanks for being my teachers...
 all good things come with time
 no hurry or worrys
 
great thread !
 love ya
 kimmers

Gradient and Kim... you both put it so well.  Thanks so much!  All this great advice takes away some of the hesitation and I'm anxious to give it a try.  Kim, I'm sure we'll all be glad when October gets here and you can post your new images with your new camera!  Of course, the fact that the air conditioner is on the fritz today probably obliterated my camera fund for now, but it's good to have this forum to read, the gallery for inspiration till I am able to take the plunge, and friends like y'all!

Thanks a million..... Maria

 Maria!
   GOSH !!!
 if you need a new air conditioning that should come first !! ( specailly if you live in a hot place as i do ) just enjoy what you have then!!

     For now =BE EXCITED with your nikon 7900 ( which i have.) i have personally discovered THAT if it is on macro mode it is a magical little box hehe.
   i shoot on maco mode 70 percent of the time
    heck i even do landscapes on macro mode at times that cam really has a punch in that little flower setting under scene .. all those bridgeport shots i did . macro mode .LOL..now you know my little hangup  that coupled with my artistic background gives me so many possiblitys.. alot of my pov shots are simply putting the cam on whAT ever the HECK i can find to steady it ..the ground- the wall by the tree .... i am so used to getting killer shots on that mode that its hard for me  to move to another cam and have a million other things to think about . ( but i need to i am at the point wheree it calls to me and i AM DYiNG TO LEARN LOL ))
     when i shoot i am primary focused on  an interesting Subject composition light and keeping the darn thing still as i can LOL...i always try to get a balence of dark and light in my compos. play with your nikon 7900 on that mode in a new  and unexpected way s and it will be fun untill you can get the slr.  If  my background dosnt have the dof i want  i make two copies one with a glassian blur then clone the sharp area from the second copy over the ares i want.  lol but i am sick of doing that sometimes i sit there and play with one picture for 5 hours . i want to learn and do it right the first time!!  but seriously you have the best pocket cam for the money i feel . THAT 7900  won awards two years in a row and so pick it up and give it a big kiss and go out and play!!hehe... another thing to think about is with the pocket cam you can get away with much more.. when you go out people dont mind if you take their pics they are not threatened i can go in a mall or casino and people think i am just an over zealous mom that is camera happy .  then when i am with Georgia  ( georgy on here who is my best friend and teacher ) .when we are out and about..and she has the big guns out people treat it differantly and are worried about why you are taking thier pic .. harder to get around things the whole photographer steriotype is there that i feel can get in the way as people are parinoid out there..hehe...
just a few thoughts this morning as i am drinking my coffee....
 hope all my rambaling here gets the point across
 by the way i love your king charles spaniel avaitor ..whatta sweet babyee!!
 what beuatiful dogs you have !! i have a cocker spaniel and she is my baby and goes with me everywhere lol she is sittting here right now licking my foot!! LOL!!..
 love ya kimmie!! :O)

Thank you, Kimmie. You have always been much more creative with your Nikon than I have been. You really have the knack! I agree that the 7900 does well in macro. I did try the gaussian blur for DOF once on a flower image, but my attempt wasn't as good as the real thing. It is time consuming to do all the erasing, but it can be fun. I was working on an image this morning with this frog composition, doing just that. Composition and light I'm trying to learn as I go along. All the shots I took yesterday at the park are so darned bright!! I thought a sunny day in the park would be fun, which it was, but some cloud cover probably would have been better. I'll post a few over the next few days, but they could have been better. There's not much to shoot in a tiny town, and I don't get out often enough to the city where there are more things to see and do.

Out of 120 or so images, I probably have less than a dozen worth posting. From my vacation images, I probably posted a couple dozen or so here at RR, and put around 200 on my website. But I took well over 1000 shots over those two weeks. So that is probably around 10 percent or so that are worth showing. I am curious to know what others here end up with. Do you folks take many shots just to get a few really good ones? I'm sure the level of expertise would raise the percentage quite a bit. But it would be interesting to know.

Thanks for the comment on my avatar. My girls are my "kids". And they are all sleeping at my feet at the moment, too. I have a few more older images of them here: http://www.cavalierladyfractals.com/cavaliers.htm
including a cocker spaniel that we owned. And I crawled under the house this morning and fiddled with the drainage line, so I might have averted a large repair bill, at least for the time being.  I hope so.  Hopefully, the hot Texas summer temps are over now. But it will still be several months of saving up, as the price of the camera is only one expense. As everyone as already said, by the time you think about bag, lenses, cleaning supplies, filters, etc. etc., the price could double or triple in a hurry.

Thanks for the reply....

Maria

Maria, I'm still learning also and I can tell you that I take hundreds of shots just to get one that seems postable. I've learned from reading of others that it's not uncommon which is encouraging.

Thanks firesnuffer!  That is very encouraging. :)

One a good whole day shoot, I can take anything between 200-500 shots....one has to!!!

I believe the most I have shot is nr 600...

That's good to know... but out of 200 shots, how many are you likely to process for posting or showing? 

Not 500...lol

Depends on the individual?...I have a high rate percentage but others have a low rate depending on their skills and techique...which are important I feel!...but saying that, i guess it also depends how fast /good ones equip is!

Success I feel, well what I do...relies on: panning skills, candid  skills, knowing the cam, weather conditions, framing the shot , knowing what you want in the end result/frame. Myself, I am hopless at landscapes, waterfalls, not my genre so I concentrate at what I do best!...wildlife  etc etc..and hone my skills towards that!...oh, into portraits atm, (more money involved :)) but not for web use!

Thanks.  I figured that question would have too many variables to answer easily.  Thanks, I appreciate it. :)

If you composition and exposure(including focus) are paramount. Get that right and you might have a good shot...this is the same with any camera used.  So much has to do with the eye behind the composition, the choice of exposure methods, etc.   This is the basics of good photography whether digital or film; this is what makes a photo excellent or very good compared to everyday snapshots.      

CavalierLady, I would be more concerned with these aspects than the camera. Sure, a good camera does make a difference in accurate exposure and metering methods have a lot to do with that...as does practice.  The new sensing of modern DSLR (yikes! modern as if 3 years old is antique?) can be quite accurate. My D200 works in auto white balance almost better than when I chose and manipulated that with my D70.  The D50 also has good auto white balance plus the general settings the sort of light.

While menus can be intimidating, as I said before, you will play with the camera, try this and that. Then you will settle down pretty much to a particular group of menu settings. The rest like ISO, shutter or aperture priority or auto are easily changed with wheels and buttons, no menu needed.

When the time comes, you are cool again with a repaired a/c unit(costly!) and have a new camera, just check back with any questions.  Folks here will respond. This thread is proof of that!   The transition does take a bit of time but you will wake up, go to shoot pictures are realize it is really easy using a digital SLR.   Shoot on auto for a while, nothing wrong with that. Experiment with exposure options and "priorities"...simply delete the ones you mess up on and try again! No wasted film to worry about in the learning curve.

Yikes, it took me more time to get used to bifocals in my eyeglasses than it did to get comfortable with my first DSLR.   At first I went at it gently then played and learned more with the camera. With the glasses, I looked around at all the older folks wearing those and actually not walking an stumbling and thought..well, if they can...so now I have trifocals!

Post anytime on this subject.  I am certain it is very welcomed.  And...a good book on photography can really help.  This clears the air on things like exposure.  One I like is this:

PERFECT EXPOSURE, by Jim Zukerman (Amazon has it.)  This book is on basically one subject, exposure.  Some will disagree with his approach but cannot disagree with his great photography. The book is full of pictures but not as a salute to the author: Each pic is an example with text to explain.

Best  Wishes.      Tom.   

Hi Maria,

You posted a frog:)Was that for me? Having froggie withdrawls. They should be out of hibernation soon. Poor things.lol.

Cute images. I have a bad habit of not taking more then two shots on a subject. When i had that course in America he encouraged me to take heaps.So more the merrier i suppose.So now when i do a portrait i click click away. I suppose not wasting film.

Just have fun :)

Thank you, Tom. I appreciate your time and advice. I'll probably get used to the idea of settings after a while, just as you have said. I got used to bifocals, as well. So I'm sure I will with an DLSR, as well, with time. The few folks I have run across out in the field only use the auto mode, so I haven't had the chance to watch folks set the manual modes, but with practice and experimentation, the help of books and online tutorials, and a little patience, hopefully I'll reach a day when it's not confusing. I've been trying to learn 2D painting, and a noted 2D artist said on his website that it's just like learning to play the guitar... practice till your fingers bleed. So it appears the analogy is similar here. Having this support system here in the forum is very reassuring. Thank you for the suggestion of the book to look for. I'll check it out.

My AC issue is still unresolved. Time will tell on that. And Chris, I admit I did think of you when I saw the frog in the park. :) I posted it today. I've also only taken just two or three shots from any vantage point. Thanks for the suggestion to shoot more than that!

Maria

May I also recommend a good book?  It's titled "Understanding Exposure: How to Shoot Great Photographs with a Film or Digital Camera" by Bryan Peterson...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0817463003/ref=nosim/tirebouchon-20

A very good read indeed.  One thing nice about digital cameras...the film is really-really cheap!  Don't be intimidated by all the buttons and dials on a dSLR.  It's fun to experiment, and by doing that, you learn.  This forum is overloaded with people willing to help!

Kind Regards...

 

Thank you TerraDreamer for that link.  It's certainly something I need to learn and understand.  I should get some of these and start reading up on them now.  Thanks for that!

Maria