It seems of late that Renderosity is getting worse and worse.  It`s slower than usual, artist are leaving the site, or being banned for no good reason (those images I saw did not violate the TOS)

and there seems to be a lack of response, and or caring from the staff.  I know this is a money driven site, without RMP, there would be no site, or at the least we would have to pay to post here.

Id like to know what is happening here?  And in My Humble Opinion, if things dont get better, more and more people will leave, and some of them, that haven`t already, will pull their stores.

I hate to tell the staff this, but to be creative, and to use one`s imagination, means in most cases we are not going to be Polictialy Correct....

I agree with the TOS, but hey how using some common sense, and being fair. 

I hate to see Renderosity continue on it`s present course, because if it does, I fear it wil no longer be a welcome site for creative artist.  I would truly hate to see that.

Renderosity was the first site I found, and the first site I joined, I would not be happy if I felt I had to leave.  But, after all that has happened, and is happeining now, that feeling is growing stronger and stronger.

So how about we all, Staff, and Artist, join together and see what we can do to made Renderosity a real community again, and hopefully bring some of those that have left back home.

Just voicing my opinions and concerns.

thanks.

although I detest having to be politically correct (it means I can't express my opinions without a great deal of self-censorship), the main advantage to that, here, is that it means less people will be offended by what we say or do. it means more people will feel welcome here. just as an aside, I've seen many poser users leaving here in a huff in the last 7 or 8 years, making a big public display over much ado about nothing IMVHO, but they almost always come back. it's just a poser render, not "La Gioconda" or "Gunica", so why get so upset over such trifling matters?

I respect your feelings mejed but I wanted to just say that we have the guidelines in place for a reason and we make our decisions based on that TOS.  Everyone agrees to our guidelines when they register with Renderosity.  We don't just ban someone for a violation, we educate, we try and work with those members. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and its each individuals choice of whether they want to follow the TOS to which they agreed or not in the end.

We make team decisions and discuss the violations as a team before any action is taken. I'm not sure what images you are referring to but if they were removed then it was a team decision that they were violations.

So with that being said I don't want this thread to take a negative, bad path and I hope that anyone that feels the need to participate in this thread will do so in a productive, positive way.

Thanks

If I'm reading mejed/s post correctly, it's not the TOS themselves he's concerned about. It's the way the TOS are enforced.

And that's something that is worrying me too. The subjects the TOS are dealing with do not allow for simple black and white decisions. So I think that most (possible) TOS violations fall into the grey areas, and the staff has to decide whether it's a violation or not.

Now if the TOS were strictly enforced, meaning that only posts/images that nobody can possibly interpret as maybe skirting the TOS edges would be allowed, artistic freedom would be completely absent. The pinup genre would have to be abolished, World Events/Social Commentary would have to be eliminated, and so on. Not a desirable situation, I guess.
The actual situation is one of a certain leeway. Sensuality is allowed, as long as the artist doesn't go too far. Sharp social commentary is allowed, as long as the poster doesn't go too far. And so on.
The staff determines what is "too far" and what is not, on a case by case basis. And that's where uncertainty comes in.

Don't get me wrong, I think the staff are doing a very good job on handling possible TOS violations.

Quote - It's just a poser render, not "La Gioconda" or "Guernica", so why get so upset over such trifling matters?

It's not the content or the artistic value of the removed posts that's upsetting. It's the uncertainty over what is "too far" and what is not, in combination with the severity of the consequences when a post is judged to be over the edge.

In the most recent case it's not "leaving in a huff", it's about a merchant here who cannot afford the possibility of getting banned over gallery images that might be a little over the edge.

And that's what's upsetting IMO. That's why I'm in favor of a severity level system, in which occasional posts that are judged to be slightly over the edge will not lead to a ban, in which old records do not have eternity value. A system in which the severity of consequences is proportional to the severity and frequency of transgressions. A system that is fair.

Again, I think that the staff is doing a very good job, but I also think they have to do this job under circomstances that are more difficult than they have to be.

I do also want to say that we also let members that are having issues with possible TOS violations know that if they are unsure about an image they can also send it to a staff before uploading just to be on the safe side. 

And also want to say that svdl is correct in stating that sometimes its not cut and dry on whether an image is a violation that is why we never make individual decisions on our own, we always get the team opinions and views with discussion on the potential violation.  We feel that with as many team members as we have all with different views on things, its much more consistent in allowing a team of staff to make the decision so we can hear the different points of view.

We have a system in place that is stated in the TOS on how violations can lead to a ban. And as I stated above we give education and warnings before a ban is just issued. We feel that members have a certain responsibility as well to read and understand the guidelines and if they are unsure to check first and avoid an incident.  If a member likes to stay "close to the edge" then its best for them to get a confirmation before posting the image. 

When a image is brought to our attention by either a member or when the Mod/coord is doing their gallery it goes up for dicussion. We don't want to have to remove images and we try not to but we do have our TOS and as Stacey said everyone signs this when they join our site. That is why it is a team decision so that no one person can decide this image is or is not against the TOS. The whole team puts their imput into these discussions so we get all opinions. Only after this decussion is a image removed if the team feels it goes against the TOS.

Sorry Stac crossed posted with you :biggrin:

To svdl: thank you that was exactly what I was trying to say.  As I pointed  out, I like coming here...but its just not as frendly as it used to be.  I used the banning as an example, perhaps I should not have. This is still a great site..but it just seem to me that its gotten a little ... can`t think of the word... LOL...And i agree I think the staff are doing a good job, but it just seems to me that when you do bring something like this up they get a might bit testy, and that was not my intention, my intention is to point out what I and others see as an inconsinstency (?) in the enforcement of the TOS.

But all in all svdl said better than I did.

ok I`ll shut up...for a little while, maybe.

and once again, this is just my opinion.

thanks.

No one was getting testy at all.  We were just explaining a bit about how the process of removing images is done. Our process is the best way to ensure decisions are completely unbiased and consistent.

Thanks

A rule system consists of three parts:

• the rules themselves. The TOS describe what's allowed and what's not. The TOS themselves are not being discussed in this thread.
• the process for determination whether a rule as been broken or not. The team decision process indeed is the best process I can think of. No discussion there as far as I'm concerned.
• the process of determining the consequences when a rule is broken. This is the point I'd like to discuss.

Straight from the TOS page:

Members/Users found practicing these behaviors receive;

Deletion of the post/s.

• First event - warning by email and/or IM.
• Second event - Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days.
• Third event - Membership revoked, and access to the community permanently blocked. This includes any duplicate accounts for the same person. Renderosity considers this information private and confidential. However, there may be certain situations that necessitate otherwise.

This does not reflect actual policy. In fact, as far as I can see actual policy is more considerate and proportionate than the policy stated in the TOS. The educational "first offence" actual policy is a fine example.

An update of the TOS page describing the actual policy might be a good idea.

if the tos rules are enforced with a proportionate amonut of fairness re what image can and cannot be allowed why is it some members think there are two sets of tos?

and in general i think the admin do a good job. i do and will always abide by the tos. but i do think this them and us situation thats obviously abounds needs to be addressed.

billy

There is no "us and them" only if someone chooses to see it that way, I certainly don't. We dont' like giving warnings much less banning. We would love to see ALL members always abide by the guidelines to which they agreed but that unfortunately is a nice dream, LOL

The information in the TOS is a outline of how the warning process works, as I stated several times we do try and educate first if we see that the violation was not intentional and maybe the member doesn't understand fully whatever section of the TOS is violated.  I don't feel that we should update the TOS to the education process because that is done on a case by case basis depending on the severity of the violation, what it is, etc there are just too many variables to make that blanket statement that we will ALWAYS give education before a warning.

Thanks

Ah, so severity IS a factor. I thought so, but I didn't KNOW. This is the kind of information I'm asking for.

Yes we do understand that sometimes things happen unintentionally and we take a lot of factors into account before taking the appropriate action.

if there are no us and them why do some members think there are two sets of tos. why do some mods say whats allowed in the marketplace is not allowed here? and sorry tracey but i thought the tos a set of rules to abide by  ..ie..no nudes under 18 no provocative poses etc etc. the info re guidlines are not and never have been part of anyones tos. guidlines and tos are two different animals. and who wants education before warning.  that people are requested to secretly show an image to a mod shows the rule or the implimentation of it to be extremely ambigious in the first place.

billy

There is one main TOS for all members as I explained in the other thread to you billy.

Your statement about "guidelines and TOS" is completely confusing to me and I don't know what you are trying to say there so you will have to clarify if you want me to answer.

I woudl think EVERYONE would want education before warning? why would they not? that doesn't make any sense to me?

And telling members they can let us review an image before uploading is a courtesy for new members or members that aren't sure because as has been stated before, violations are not always cut and dry. I don't know how you could think that isn't a good thing?

now your putting words in my mouth. i stated that the tos are the tos and guidelines are simply that i never said they were'nt helpful. to quote guidelines as part of the tos would be a bit missleading.

i'm saying ...if the tos is  re the under 18's is so good why do some mods (part of the admin) and some members think theres one rule for MP and one for the galleries? if i go in the bar and i don't look 18 i get asked for id..if i have no id i get refused booze. the bartender doesn't spin me round for all the staff to see and say...does he look 18 to you lot. a rule that can;t be followed by one mod using his/her own discretion makes it a very very ambiguous rule to start with. that mods from different parts of the site react differently to each other...ie the market place and the poser gallery (as stated by a mod) further shows it to be an ambigous and in some ways unfair rule in the implimentation of. why bring in an eduactional program into the thread. it isn't about whether or not people get educated though that they do is good. with such ambiguity it's a necessity lol. it's about why do some admin think theres one rule for galleries and one for the MP. why do some mebers think the same. doesn't it bother you the admin that they do think this way.  doesn't it show that somehwre the rule is either being enforced unequally with one are of rendo using different criteria than another.

telling members they can let us do a review......yes but with this rule i've seen two or more mods and an admin have to say let us vet first.......and the fact that they should have to on the grounds they aren't sure if it will be a violation or not shows the rule again to be an ambiguous one.  i was told the line was changed from allowing certain things to not allowing certain things by a mod because a few people crossed a line. is that how rules work...someone breaks the tos and the interpitation of the rule gets stricter....sorry but i can't see the logic of it.  i take it based on on what i put in the post you won't review the impimentation of the rule...but please don't say you don't understand what i'm saying. i have a ten yr old boy who's watching what i type and he understands the premise of my request. i asked him how old was the girl in the ad and hes said 14...i asked him what he thought of it...he said shes being sexy and giggled......the site is rife whith these kind of what i find inoffensive images but according to the tos they break the rules. it does seem the mp gets away with it on a much broader base than some of the galleries. to say some slip through the net seems odd ...no where near as many seem to slip through the poser forum net...maybe they should mod the MP as well.

billy

obviously like acadia you think i'm on a soap box so i'll say no more on the subject...i just hope the next time it comes up people like acadia and others don't cry about it as they did at the beginning of the thread that started it all and then say oh gosh do they really have two sets of rules....they must have if a mod says they do. next time i see someone lose an image i shall laugh extrememly loudly and think tough shit

I was hoping for an Adult exchange here, as I sure Stacey was. Nuff said.

mejed,

I hope that in some way the responses in this thread to your original statement have been addressed. As I stated I respect your opinion and appreciate your concern.

Have a great evening!

Thanks

The simple solution for a member doing certain types of pics (like fairies with Aiko) is simply to submit EVERY pic to a mod before posting.

No they don't have to do that Mark, only if it could possibly be seen as nude, transparent clothing or sexual in nature (provactive)

If you're talking about fairness let me tell you something here, I used to be on the team and I can vouch for how alleged violations are handled by the team as stated by Sandy and Stacey above, Now the fairness issue, I overstepped the mark in the forums a couple of weeks ago and I received my post being deleted and a warning from one of the mods, Now I'm an ex team member if there was favouritism in how they conduct themselves that wouldn't have happened, it would have been removed and left at that so Yes they do deal with people on a fair basis and I actually do KNOW this from both sides of the fence!!!

I have also reported images I think are in breach but they didn't, as I said before though I think there should be a system in place to inform the member who reported a violation what the result is!

 I can also say form experience what a thanless task the job of mod is, how many of you actually know that these people get "hate mail" for some of the decisions taken and that just shouldn't happen, they do a good and difficult job to try to keep everyone happy and THAT isn't easy!!

if you think it fair to treat the MP different than the galleries fine...i accept the tos...that i question how a certain rule is implimented in no way detracts from that fact. that i question why there are two sets of tos no way detracts form that fact.  and sorry fixer but because one is treated fairly doesn't prove all are. not that i'm saying they aren't...my main contention is a part of the tos is left up to what amounts to human nature and as such is inherently flawed and open to abuse. specially when one group of people work under a different set of tos than others. i will also admit that should an image get taken down of mine if i posted one, wouldn't bother me in the slightest. i'd accept it without a murmer. i think it's hard for people  to diffirentiate between  a principle and the acceptance of an action.  in principle i disagree with something. i don't disagree with an action.

billy

Billy I can only say what I've seen and I have seen it from both sides and I know exactly how the system works. It would be very difficult for the admins here to have a fairer system. It is a fact that no one person is responsible for ANY decision regarding alleged TOS violations, it is done on a majority basis like all true democratic processes, If you or anyone else can come up with a fairer process for doing it I'm sure the admins would listen!

Having been there and done it I can't think of a fairer way and yes sometimes I didn't agree with decisions made but that's the way of the democratic process!

I may have an explanation for the inequality Billy perceives. Context, camera angles, lighting and especially pose.

I've seen it happen on my Poser screen myself. Same figure, same body morphs, same face morphs. Put her in a pose that radiates confidence and self-reliance, and she's an adult. Put her in a pose that radiates childishness or petulance, and she'll look several years younger. All the while using exactly the same body morphs and textures.

Almost like a "live" young adult - one day they behave like responsible adults, the next day they behave like adolescents. Tell me about it - I work with youngsters aged 17-24 every day!

Context is also important. Usually an image tells a story, and that story influences the apparent age of the humanoid figures. Consider this: a nude Aiko in a school room and an angry teacher  - context indicates she's underage - violation. Same nude Aiko in a typical NVIATWAS scene - context indicates skill with weapons or magic - adult and OK.

Most promos in the MP are devoid of context, in order to better show the textures and morphs. The poses are usually the "fashion model" type poses, associated with adults.

So I'm not surprised that character X for Aiko is OK in the MP, even with full nudity on the 2nd and 3rd image, while an image in the galleries using character X CAN be a violation. No double standards needed!

"no nudes under 18"

I had an image removed for that. Unfairly. I happen to like small thin flatchested women. But post an image of one and everyone ASSUMES it's someone under 18.

We dont base removal decisions on breast size Bone....btw, when did you have an image removed?

It was quite a while ago

bonestructure...maybe then some context should be supplied to give a pointer to the fact that said image is of an 'older thin flat-chested woman' rather than a simple [I'm assuming here, always chancey at best and if I'm incorrect I apologize] pin up style image of an ambiguiously aged female model. Context is a lot of what I look at when an image is put up for review in the Mod/Coord. Forum. I know what you mean as I have a similar pre-delection in female likes and, were I to do Poser art, I would seriously consider putting anything I did [given my previously stated pre-delection ] up for an advance review before posting it. As I just got Poser 5 that may well happen if out turns out I like playing around in the app. Haven't had much luck so far tho...seems to take  fair bit of time to get proficient enough for a decent post. On that count..many KUDOs to all the Poser users who have made great progress in that app.....not as easy as it would seem...LOL

I'm confused, bonestructure. According to our member records, you have never had an image removed. Perhaps this was under another username? If you let us know, we can give a more specific response as to the removal reasons.

No, it was here. You have to remember back a while ago I left the site for various reasons of disagreement. I have no confusion with why the image was removed. I just disagreed with the perception that the model, one of Thorne's, modified, was under 18 because she was thin, small and flatchested. Despite the fact that every woman I've ever been involved with in my life has been, small, thin, flatchested and had what I call an elfish face, it's common, if I make my personal preferences known, for at least a few stupid people to accuse me of liking '12 year old girls'.

This is the image that was removed. Granted, my skills then are nowhere what they are now, and it is just a pinup, but I was reasonably proud of it at the time.

Bonestructure, you have never had an image removed under your current username. Any image removed by our staff is automatically written to the database and your member record.

I'll not make any comment on the image until I can view it on my home TFT monitor instead of this graphics-challenged POS in my company's rest area ;-)

All i'm gonna say is ... How can i step away from the edge when the edge keeps getting closer?

well look at that, they removed the image. why am I not surprised.

Hi bonestructure,

I sent you a site mail regarding the image I deleted from this thread. Please check that and let me know if you have any questions.

Karen

well, if you sent me an email, I didn't get it. I'm not surprised the image was removed.

I sent you a site mail. Click the site mail link at the top of the page :-)

Oh one of those. I always miss those cause you guys went and moved the dang things and I always look in the wrong place lol