Well, now that the initial hype about HDRI actually being supported by bryce 6 seems to be an official fact I think its time for me to ask some questions about it....

If I understand correctly Bryce6 accepts HDRI reflections as well as IBL. Other programs that render with HDRI have both the reflections and IBL also and it's not unusual to control these seperately. Obviously a high res HDRI will create nice crisp detailed HDRI reflections, but apparently in bryce 6 higher resolutions also increases rendertime.

In other programs high-res HDRI can create rather unappealing lighting situations so it's prefered to use low res and/or heavily blurred HDRI for IBL because it gives a softer lighting setup.

To get the best of both worlds in other programs its not unusual to use a high-res map for reflections and a low-res map for the IBL. Does Bryce 6 allow for this also? Do blurred or non-blurred HDRI's affect the look of the IBL? Does the resolution of the HDRI affect the results in terms of lighting? Can seperate HDRI's be used for HDRI reflection and IBL?

Also, there's already been some other tool in bryce since version 5 that can be used for realistic lighting, known as True Ambience. Does the HDRI and IBL support work well (or at all) in combination with TA? And on the performance side, does TA seem to be faster in B6 compared to B5 and 5.5? and how does IBL affect TA performance?

Not much help will this be, but I'll try... >To get the best of both worlds in other programs its not >unusual to use a high-res map for reflections and a low-res map >for the IBL. Does Bryce 6 allow for this also? No. >Do blurred or non-blurred HDRI's affect the look of the IBL? Haven't really tried, but a blurred HDR should have softer lighting, as the transitions between the light and dark areas is gradual, just like in other programs. >Does the resolution of the HDRI affect the results in terms >of lighting? Not that I can tell. Control-wise in Bryce 6, Quality regulates the number of rays, Intensity darkens or lightens the whole of the HDR, while HDR Effect regulates the intensity of light areas on HDR. >Can seperate HDRI's be used for HDRI reflection and IBL? No. >Also, there's already been some other tool in bryce since >version 5 that can be used for realistic lighting, known as >True Ambience. Does the HDRI and IBL support work well (or at >all) in combination with TA? And on the performance side, does >TA seem to be faster in B6 compared to B5 and 5.5? and how does >IBL affect TA performance? TA seems to be faster in B6. IBL works with TA and in the way you might expect. TA gave a lighter image because of the "reflected light" in the previous versions, and it does it again in B6. A quick and dirty test (without final results) on a P IV 1.7: 680x920 image with 140 million polygons: No IBL at all - Bryce reports to need 16:35 minutes at Regular setting, plus AA pass IBL, no background - Bryce reports to need 59 minutes at Regular, plus AA pass full IBL - Bryce reports to need 45 minutes at Regular setting, plus AA pass full IBL + TA (4 rpp) - Bryce reports it will need 4 hours The second and the third ones are fishy. But I guess the results would be different if I closed down Bryce and tried every option afresh, instead of just changing the options. PS. TA at 4 rpp without IBL says it will need 1 hour 15 minutes.

PPS. I was apparently wrong about TA being faster in B 6. The original of the scene above in BR5 format, no messing with IBL at all: Bryce 5.5, TA at 4 rpp - Bryce reports it will need 8:30 minutes Bryce 6, TA at 4 rpp - 12:26

Does the resolution of the HDRI affect the results in terms of lighting?

I tested Debevec's "dodge" HDRI at 3 different sizes; 1024, 512 and 256 on the same scene. (I resized the HDRI with HDRShop). The lighting changed very noticably in the scene when changing sizes. (as the HDRI got smaller, the lighting got brighter), but as stated, this can be tweaked with Bryce's sliders.

But, the render times of all 3 sizes were all exactly the same.

I believe the reason some HDRI's take longer to render in a scene is due to the amount of exposure levels that were used to create them. I have had HDRI's that were complex looking (sky, buildings, people, ground) and they rendered fairly fast, while an HDRI I made in photoshop (grey background, and a single white square) seemed to render forever. (it had 7 exposure layers)

Ok, interesting. I wonder if bryce 7 will improve HDRI with seperate reflection and IBL maps. Seems a bummer that the TA slowed down btw... IBL in combination with TA would've been interesting.

Do transparent objects have as significant an impact on HDRI as they have on soft-shadows in terms of render time?

Ray, are you actually talking about environment maps? You put them in the material so it looks like the objects reflects them? That would certainly be nice. Transparent as in alpha map or as in glass? Putting a Moderate glass sphere in the scene above resulted in Bryce reporting it would need 1 hour 43 minutes instead of 45 minutes. Putting in a 2D object with an alpha map, gave 1 hour 10 minutes. All in regular quality render with full IBL with its quality at 10.

Yup, I'm talking abour environment maps :)

In 3dsmax u can assign an environment map for your scene, and apply a seperate HDRI to your skylight for the IBL. Also you can override the environment map for seperate objects by assigning an environment map to the objects material. I'm quite sure there's similar options or options to generate similar effects in other 3d programs.

How do glass materials work with soft shadows? I remember in B5 soft shadows and glass generated some errors unless premium render mode was turned on. Does IBL require premium mode? And how do Glass objects react to IBL if IBL is possible in normal rendering mode?

IBL works with whatever render settings you want.  As for glass objects, I'll post a render when (if?) it finishes.

Edit - it was predicting 4 hours because I forgot to change the HDRI quality from 50...

The sphere and the cube are using two of Max's HDRI mats, the mug is Moderate Glass from the presets.

Rayraz ... why don't you add that as a feature request in the Bryce 6 bugs database?

Methinks I already added something like that, but the more the merrier. :biggrin: Especially so since Steve Kondris said IBL will be getting new controls. Ray, yeaj, Cinema has environment maps in material, which is pretty cool thing. Unfortunately, I don't have the advanced render to check whether it can use one image for reflections and the other for lighting. Which is slightly fishy when you think about it. OKay, different versions of the same image. But totally different images? One thing is reflected, but the light in the scene is completely different.

"Other programs that render with HDRI have both the reflections and IBL also and it's not unusual to control these seperately."

...take a look at Vue 5 Infinite (it might be the same in standard Vue 5 also)-- you can use HDR files in that manner...

RE: True Ambience- if you have a great scene and patience- you might consider rendering it TWO times- one with HDR and one with TA, and merging them in Photoshop... this would be my suggested "work-around" until B6 aquires more lighting controls... I use this "multi-pass" technique sometimes with V5i- it seems faster to me than cranking in HUGE amounts of lighting effects in one single render- plus you have more control over the effects "in post"...

Even Poser 6 allows for separate assignment of what light is IBL and/or using AO.  It would be awesome to have this feature in Bryce, especially since I find Bryce's lights much better to customize.

And don't even thing about the comparisons to Poser 6.  I can hear y'all coming from a mile away.  I'm only using it as an example and think Bryce could only benefit from having this feature as well.  Trust me - I'd rather render in Bryce (or Vue). ;-]

Quote - Rayraz ... why don't you add that as a feature request in the Bryce 6 bugs database?

where's the bug database?

Quote - Methinks I already added something like that, but the more the merrier. :biggrin: Especially so since Steve Kondris said IBL will be getting new controls. Ray, yeaj, Cinema has environment maps in material, which is pretty cool thing. Unfortunately, I don't have the advanced render to check whether it can use one image for reflections and the other for lighting. Which is slightly fishy when you think about it. OKay, different versions of the same image. But totally different images? One thing is reflected, but the light in the scene is completely different.

yea the basic idea is to use differnt versions of the same image :) though combining multiple hrdi can give interesting effects also.

Attached Link: DAZ Bug Reports/Feature Requests

At the attached link.
Go get 'em Ray. ;-]

Yeah, there are many more HDRI controls that Bryce can recieve in the future, whether that be in the 6.1 update or the next Bryce 7, or both.

We've got an HDRI engine with a gas pedal and a brake. The steering wheel will arrive later, lol.

But hey, at least we're going forward!  :oD

Yep, forward only, reverse will come in later versions.

In response to what veritas said about AO needed in Bryce, I am almost finished creating and testing an HDRI that generates pure white light with no reflections. Perfect for the look of a global illumination pass, and easy to composite the output with the original image. And also - it's about a million times faster than true ambience.

Stay tuned, if it works in Bryce I'll make it a freebie.

Scott

I've already made an all white HDRI, didn't work for me as making a GI look. No matter what, there was still a "light source" directly in front of the scene throwing shadows back.

Hope you can make it work somehow.

Erlik- yes cinema can embed an environment map (including HDR) into any material as well as having a separate reflection channel, the two of which can be set so having something to reflect other than black will override the env map or not as you choose. I tend to use two sky objects with hdr. The first for reflection/environment with seen by camera but not by the GI engine; the second with a blurred hdr set to not seen by camera by by GI. The hdr can be adjusted individually in each material. Flexibility like this is what makes for serious lighting fun and cool effects.

AS- try a map which will result in a fade from mid grey on one pole of the envirnment sphere to  full white by  2/3 way to the other pole. how you orient the environment sphere will give you some directionality control of your GI.

Will try that!

how you orient the environment sphere will give you some directionality control of your GI.

I don't believe there is anyway to move the HDRI in Bryce. Anyone know?...because I do not see a way....

...I have bugged E-on about making the HDR or IBL file "rotatable" so that you could control the lighting more precisely- it may or may not be in Vue 6... but it's something DAZ should seriously consider for Bryce 6.1 (or 7). ...basically it would work just like how you rotate the sunlight in Bryce- just GRAB IT with the mouse and move it around until you like the lighting...Couldn't be MORE SIMPLE!

Meantime- in Bryce 6 you need rotate the entire scene around to get the IBL light to fall where you want...

...here's a test render I made in Vue 5 when it first came out two years ago- the TOTAL illumination for this scene was a SINGLE white tile (240 x 240)... and yes, if you use a gray-scale ramp- you can create a DIRECTIONAL light source as well...

Being LDR- the render is quite FAST.  Needless to day, LDR doesn't have the Dynamic Range of HDR- but it (LDR) is a really FAST and a SIMPLE way to light a scene...

Update on what is happening. It works perfectly in Caarara, but when I use HDRShop to convert it to a light probe - it acts as directional light in Bryce 6 - what gives? The thing is just pure white light with no directional source and Bryce casts a shadow and sidelights the object. In Carrara the same HDR casts light straight down like it is supposed to and makes a nice contact shadow. Any ideas why B6 is doing this with a directionless light source?? Scott

As far as direction goes in the normal HDR in Bryce - I've created a workaround for that already. I just group the objects including the camera and then link them to a hidden cube. I rotate the cube like a giant turntable and aim the light where I want it. This totally preserves your camera angle and just moves the shading to where you want it. You can even see it update in openGL. For some reason this technique does not work with my pure white light... : /

Any ideas why B6 is doing this with a directionless light source??

Lol, told ya. Nope, I have no idea.

I would also suggest trying a "dummy" HDR file that is really an LDR... maybe it just needs the "hdr" extension but without the actual HDR data...(I think this would be possible in Photoshop).

Yeah, I tried a turning an all white .bmp into an .hdr with hdrshop, and also made an all white .hdr with 7 exposure levels with Photoshop. They both react the same in Bryce 6, they both cast a shadow.  :o(

...REALLY NICE!

Yes, it may well be that Bryce needs a further revision of its rendering engine to take full advantage of this type of lighting. That's one of the reasons why I would HOPE that Carrara 6 will be able to host Bryce scenes...and why maybe Bryce 7 will basically need to add the same render engine that Carrara uses...

I know that Vue has had its render engine revised at least 5 times- its a big effort... least with Bryce under the wing of the DAZ Eovia programmers, they should be able to get Bryce 7's render engine fully up to speed... in the meantime, mult-pass rendering might be a good solution to use...

Oh....I think I can make an .hdr that'll do that. Or, at least it gives me a few ideas...

Thanks! But for multi-pass the flaw comes from the cast shadow and its hard to get rid of when you composite. True AO or GI just have that nice contact shadow. This version comes with the contact shadow and the true shadow. See the darker circle under the sphere? That's a nice contact shadow, but that larger fainter one is the cast shadow. Bryce just needs to borrow the AO from c5pro to get that too. A little levels and curves in PS lets you blow out all the greys and just mainly keep the shadows, but the big honking cast shadows are harder to get rid of. Still - this is miles ahead of what we used to be able to do in Bryce. DAZ is at least sending it forward like they said they would. Aside from a few minor bugs it is stable too. Nice job beta testers. I know from experience how hard they must have worked testing it. Scott

Exactly - maybe a bug DAZ shoud be looking at before B7. No wonder we are being forced to rotate our scenes around. OR maybe in time for 6.1? Scott

I would hope for the 6.1 update!!!!!!!

oh my, it rotates hdri's 90 degrees off? that's kind of a blunder :tongue1:

Uhhh.......maybe not? I just realized;

-That hdri I made was in photoshop and I forgot that it isn't warped in such a way as to unwrap correctly in the first place.

-The real HDRI's that I have been converting with HDRShop, I had been doing incorrectly. (maybe) I had changed them from "Latitude/Longitude" to "Mirror Ball". I did not see that I could change them to "Angular", which Bryce will accept.

Mirror Ball and Angular look slightly different from one another, but not all that much. I will try experimenting on this later, as I am in the middle of a render I dare not pause.  ;o)

Mine have been only angular ones from HDRshop, but I came to the same conclusion awhile ago and tested making mirror ball - it made no difference. The thing is off on the x axis by -90. My original all white HDRI came from Vue5 infinite, and it started life as a longitude HDRI. I generated the HDRI from a vue sky map with no clouds/haze/a white sky and the sun directly overhead. I think we're right here - Bryce has a bug. Go ahead and try making an Angular yourself after your render finishes. My testing showed they both were off.