A recent exchange with JKeller made me take a step back and consider the explosion here over the Curious Labs protection plan. Anyone who has read some of my comments will know that I am not a supporter of the scheme as I understand it now. Not at all. However, a lot of heat is rising between CL and the community and between members of the community. My armour is still smoking. I do not believe it needs to be that way. As has been stated, CL had not planned for this information to be made public yet. They were obviously unprepared for all the questions at this time. I have stated that some of the answers coming from several CL staffers appear contradictory. Again, I think this stems from their wanting to answer the questions, but not being prepared for the... storm. What I am proposing is that we give them a breather. Give them a little time to get themselves together and allow them a chance to put together their FAQ on the protection system. Then, perhaps another period in the Renderosity Spotlight to answer questions in a more organized fashion. In other words, give them an opportunity to present their system and their reasoning behind it in a more dignified and organized manner. I mean after they have posted their FAQ and answered our questions in the Spotlight, we can still roast 'em if we wanna. ;-) What say ye of the community?

Not only can I say that I agree, but that I think it's a good idea and well put.

yeah it was getting out of hand. its funny though how the same people that were so adamant about crucifying the evil warez people who pirated anton's work were ranting about how they didnt like the software protection in the new upgrade -- put there to stop warez. its sad though that the only thing that gets people so enthusiastic on this forum is warez posts. the two most highly posted topics ever were antons warez posts and the curious labs software protection measures. the forums (art/tech related posts) and galleries have been stagnant for the past couple of days as everyone was furtively typing their warez posts. i hope it gets back to normal soon.

Gotta agree completely on holding off. Been getting a little tired of it all because it's such a mess right now. We should have a better understanding once they get a chance to compile the FAQ and are themselves prepared to answer questions. Maybe some cooler heads will prevail anyhow. darchangel, gotta take you to task (sorry, can't help it). This system won't work. Why? No system is faultless. Even Microsoft knows their security in XP will be cracked (which is very similar). Here's a quote that I'll let do the talking for me: "Weve determined that a crack will be out for this method of activation within one week after RTM, but this is not to stop those guys. This is to stop the casual piracy of Windows, and I think it will be a viable solution. Bottom line is you should pay for the software you use."

whoop if youd have read my earlier posts thats what ive been saying from the start. CL is a small company, and it doesnt have the funding behind it that max or maya does. both of those products have either a hardware dongle or server-authenticated flex-lm license keys (which are much more secure methods of software protection than CL is proposing), and theyve BOTH been cracked within days of their being released. its very pretentious of them to think that their protection will hold up any longer. within a day of its release there will be a key generator out ....will it be worth angering their paying customers to have controversial spyware installed in their systems? (as far as i can tell by the number of threads the vast majority are pretty pissed off).... i dont know. i dont believe that copy protection is very effective, but i believe that SOME form of it is necessary becauuse it does curb piracy to some extent. im sure a lot of people who are so outspoken about refusing to install so-called spyware on their systems dont know that they already have some form of it installed anyways. im sure almost all of you have getright installed. :) either way i dont really care about it. if i believe that the software i am planning on purchasing violates my rights as a consumer i wont purchase it. but i wont try to talk other people out of buying it, and i wont harass the company either. its rediculous that these threads have gone on so much and all they do is go around in circles. i may not agree with their views on consumer rights, but i commend the employees of CL for so patiently answering all of these posts, and reading post after post of people trashing their company and telling them that they will never buy another CL product again and they will persuade all their friends not to either. telling them that CL is going to go out of business. my patience would have been at an end long ago. ive been skimming over some of the threads and the funniest thing is that the SAME PEOPLE who are now bitching and whining about the copy protection being implemented in poser were the ones who posted in favour of lynching the person who pirated antons models and screamed for a crusade against warez. what a joke. i honestly think that a lot of people come here just to argue. its about time people gave CL a break, theyve been great sports so far. if you dont like the protection then dont buy the program, but let everyone decide for themselves. these arguments are pointless. like i always say -- NOONE is ever going to change anyone elses mind, so why not save your energy for something more productive???

Just to say that if you are only concerned with stopping casual piracy, you don't need industrial strength measures. Also, there's nothing inconsistent in being against piracy AND being against copy protection, the reason being that the latter doesn't stop the former. Also, if no-one ever changed their mind in response to valid argument, the world would be in a right mess. OK, it IS in a right mess, but there are at least some intelligent people on the planet who are capable of modifying their views.

A cease-fire seems like an excellent idea. Wait for a FAQ and maybe wait until ProPack 1.0.1 to see how it really is. And dare I say the whole issue should migrate to the complaint and debate forum? Please. For something which won't materially effect me until Poser5 or I go for the pro-pack the whole thing was sapping a lot of the fun.

I think the subject is relevant and serves a useful purpose to Poser users. It isn't about warez; it is about how Curious Labs' attempt to deal with warez affects legitimate Poser users. There is definitely a lot of hysteria and misinformation floating about - well, welcome to the human race. darchangel, I, for one, was not 'whining and bitching' about the 'protection' scheme, I was expressing concerns and seeking information. And you may recall that I supported your complaint against the warez hysteria. Steve Yatson appears to be implying that if there hadn't been a 'leak' (breaking of confidentiality agreement?) from the German magazine, we Poser users would have learned the full story about this only when the whole system was put in place with the release of the Pro Pack update (my apologies in advance to Steve if this is not the case). I'm sure that announcement schedule would have been convenient for Curious Labs, but it might have been too late for any Pro Pack users who don't want an invasive and restrictive protection scheme imposed upon them. I think it's fair to say that Curious Labs were surprised at the level of controversy about their scheme - and I mean about the actuality of their scheme, not just the various misinformed scare stories. There can be no doubt in their minds now that cyber privacy is a very serious issue to most active members on this forum.

Well, since this and only this thread related to the CL plan has been moved to the C&D forum, I guess I can see what Renderosity's stand on my idea is. And I now know exactly how Renderosity deals with those who it disagrees with. As has been stated by those who were against moving the CL protection scheme discussion here, there are going to be many, if not most, who visit the Poser forum who never peek in here. I can only surmise that was the purpose of the moving this particular thread here. It was deemed unworthy of remaining with the other threads. I am curious as to why the powers here thought this particular thread and ONLY this particular thread related to the CL plan needed to be moved to C&D? No foul language. No name-calling. No threats of violence. No nudity. Nothing but a call for a breather, a ceasefire to give CL a chance to gather their horses and come to us in a more dignified and organized manner. Do I take it personally? You're damn right I do and for the second time in a week I feel betrayed by an organization I had placed more than a little bit of respect and trust in. It is a mistake I will not make again.

I think the subject is relevant and serves a useful purpose to Poser users. It isn't about warez; it is about how Curious Labs' attempt to deal with warez affects legitimate Poser users.<<< PJF, I agree with you totally. And even though a few of my questions have been answered I am still not at all onboard this course with CL. In my opinion, you lose the war with the pirates the minuute you allow them to dictate your course of action. And I believe that is what CL has done. They have allowed the pirates to dictate the use of precious financial and time resources for a scheme that will not accomplish its stated goal. However, my post was simply a suggestion that we all take a momentary step back. I was seeing a lot of people, including myself, getting close to that red line. People were making comments that were completely and totally out of character for them and others were reacting in a similar fashion. Additionally, CL was having a bear of a time even trying to find the questions, let alone answer them since there were so many threads. IMHO, it was really starting to spiral out of control. So, silly me, offered the suggestion that we all step back, give CL a chance to get some air in their lungs and the rest of us a chance to sort out our real fears and complaints. Then we could go back at it in a more organized and, hopefully, rational manner. However, as the treatment of this thread shows, the Powers thought that out of line. So, the suggestion dies here. I agree with you on another point. I do not think CL had the slightest idea that the reaction would be such as it has been. I had better stop here, though. I've heard the next stop after C&D is Purgatory.

Not only can I say that I agree, but that I think it's a good idea and well put.<<< Obviously, those in "higher places" disagree. You deserve credit for making me look at the situation differently, JK. I still disagree with the course of action CL has chosen at this point. However, I want to see them have an opportunity to present it in a manner that is likely to provide more answers than the way things are going now.

casamerica, Mine was moved too. "As has been stated, CL had not planned for this information to be made public yet. " That's a load of bull----. This whole thing was started by the CL newsletter in which they announced their new copy protection scheme!

((((ive been skimming over some of the threads and the funniest thing is that the SAME PEOPLE who are now bitching and whining about the copy protection being implemented in poser were the ones who posted in favour of lynching the person who pirated antons models and screamed for a crusade against warez. what a joke. i honestly think that a lot of people come here just to argue)))) I cannot, and will not, speak for others involved in that. What I will say concerning your statement is this: It isn't the "What" it's the "How." Many of us are all for protection and lynching the warez people "in the virtual square." But, there HAS to be a better way. If any post I have made concerning this issue came off as "inflammatory" I do apologize, it was not meant as such. Just vehement disagreement of method. Curious Labs has my support as a consumer but, that does not mean I agree with all methods of marketing et al.

I think it is important for software makers to know the feelings of thier potential customers, it is after all what will drive thier marketing and utimatly the design of the product. CL should hurry up and fess up and provide full disclosure of thier plans if for nothing else than to discover what the market will bear. If response is not favorable, they need to know before they make a huge mistake and end up belly up like manny companies have before. I for one will stay with poser 4 until CL gets it all straight. If the PPP upgrade is going to include such a copy protection plan, I wont upgrade, simple as that. If enough people feel the same way, CL will have to rethink thier plan if they want to sell anymore software. Its good that they know that before they make that mistake and have to file for chapter 11.

Whoa casamerica, you're seeing red again. ;-) I honestly don't think the admin moved your thread here because they disagreed with what you said, or that there is anything personal about it. The other threads are discussing copy protection itself, whilst this thread is discussing the discussion. That makes it at least one step removed from being on topic. And once I'd stepped in and disagreed with your notion of 'postponing' the discussion, it became a debate about the discussion (and one with good potential to descend into bickering ;-)). I think the admin policy about posts on the subject of CL's protection system can be seen here: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=282072 It certainly explains why BAM's thread was moved here (potentially heated, just from the title). I actually think the policy has been very good. It would be useful if the mods or admin could post in a thread when they move it, to explain why.

"....a riot is an ugly thing." Young Scarabstein

Whoa casamerica, you're seeing red again. ;-)<<< Admittedly, yes I am. :-0 >>>I honestly don't think the admin moved your thread here because they disagreed with what you said, or that there is anything personal about it.<<< Moving it here has pretty well rendered the suggestion useless. As Steve from CL stated it will only make it more difficult for him to keep up with the questions flooding in. That is the exact OPPOSITE wish of the suggestion in the thread. :-( >>>The other threads are discussing copy protection itself, whilst this thread is discussing the discussion. That makes it at least one step removed from being on topic. And once I'd stepped in and disagreed with your notion of 'postponing' the discussion, it became a debate about the discussion (and one with good potential to descend into bickering ;-)).<<< I don't know, PJF, I'm pretty swamped here at work right now and am hurriedly skimming through all this at lunch but that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. And it isn't as if the threads still deemed "acceptable" or "suitable" in the Poser forum haven't been jumping in and out of the "bickering" basket. I guess you and I could start calling each other distasteful names and use colorful metaphors to help justify the move. ;-] >>>It would be useful if the mods or admin could post in a thread when they move it, to explain why.<<< Well, gods usually expect you to operate on faith and trust. The last several weeks have drained my supply of both. ;-) Oh, well. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Take care.

Mine was moved too.<<< Well, a kind soul has lent me their map of Purgatory. Just in case you and I need it. Bring you own suntan lotion though. >>>"As has been stated, CL had not planned for this information to be made public yet. " That's a load of bull----. This whole thing was started by the CL newsletter in which they announced their new copy protection scheme!<<< BAM, I might be wrong on this, but I thought the newsletter went up with the info after the German press report. I'm not sure, but that is how I understood it. If someone from CL IS trying to monitor things here, maybe they can clarify it. And don't misunderstand me from my suggestion, BAM. I'm still not onboard with this. Not at all. But I just don't see things getting much clearer the way things are going over in the Poser forum. Questions getting lost, questions getting repeated over and over. Its a mess. I just thought that like anyone, maybe CL deserved a chance, a shot at presenting their plan in a more dignified, organized and relaxed way. That would also, perhaps, allow a more organized exchange of questions. Believe me, that was all I was suggesting. I have NOT agreed with their course of action. Take care.

Well, this move allows the Poser forum regulars to go back to their gushing over new fairy figures like Wysteria. Am I the only one who finds those figures a bit unsettling? Thorne's page must be a pedophile's paradise. Anyway, inconvenient issues like intrusive copy protection and infringement of privacy are now shuffled to the sidelines of C&D and can be quietly forgotten. Notice that CL haven't posted here since the move?

"its funny though how the same people that were so adamant about crucifying the evil warez people who pirated anton's work were ranting about how they didnt like the software protection in the new upgrade -- put there to stop warez." I have absolutely nothing against CL. But the only people copy protection inconveniences is the user. Crackers will crack the code within hours of release. On ANY software. There are two methods of cracking programs. Decompilers are the first and most commonly used method. Basically a Decompiler opens the source code and lets you rewrite the program. The secind method, less commonly used is Photoshop. You heard me. You can open certain program files as RAW files in Photoshop, go down to the pixel level, and if you know the correct pixels to focus on, you simply change the pixel color. It's like flipping a switch from off to on. How do I know all this? I know everything> I make it my business to know everything. I have no clue as to how to actually do it myself. I can't even deal with a command line function in a software program like Rhino. Hopeless at programming. But I know how it's done, and I also know that software is incredibly easy for a skilled cracker to beat, no matter how high end it is or what the protections are. And these people do NOTHING else than spend all their time cracking. I belong to several warez newsgroups. Not because I ever download any, because lord knows them folks could hike a virus in on anyone at antime and I ain't takin that chance. Besides, I've learned that warez versions usually don't work as well as legit versions. But you can literally find ANY program on the newsgroups for download. Hell, they take requests. I understand CLs desire to protect their software. It's futile but I understand it. If I had the brains to program I'd want to protect my stuff too. My problem occurs when ANY software is able to access anything on my computer from the internet. And I don't think that bashing CL is gonna help either them or rosity or anyone. In my other post in that discussion, I was careful not to mention CL at all, only to express my objection to anyone but me having access to the contents of my puter. I think CL did great actually, by keeping Poser alive. More power to em. I hope they look at all these posts and perhaps rethink their strategy on some things.

Adobe has what seems to be an excellant way to protect from piracy.New users register. Upgrades need the original serial number PLUS the original disk. There is no reason to have to pull personal info off your system. As far a time-out, we are'nt talking about a bunch of little kids who had a tantrum, we are talking about INVASION OF PRIVACY by adults who know better.

Nobody knows yet that this new system pulls any personal info off your system or that it is an invasion of privacy. Why don't we wait until we have all the information before jumping to those conclusions.

Well, the motives can not be all that pure if done in secrecy.

JKeller wrote: >>Why don't we wait until we have all the information before jumping to those conclusions.<< When we wait until CL has all the information without discussing it, someone might think that we don't care about that. I want to point out that I have bought a software without a copy protection which I can reinstall at any time when my system crashes or when I buy new equipment. The software I bought is buggy. Now I want a free update which fixes the bugs without forcing me to contact anyone when I want to reinstall the software I had payed for. What's the problem?

Not arguing with that Zed. I personally don't feel contacting them is that big of a deal, but I am not telling you how to feel (nor could I if I wanted to). I do think that casamerica's suggestion would be a better way to moderate this so that Curious Labs can hear all of our questions and answer them without both parties having to jump all over the forums hunting for the questions and answers.

DigitalDream#3, if you are worried about privacy (and of course you should be/have every right to), you could always set your firewall so that it does not allow Poser (or Registration program) to access the internet and then handle the registration/authorization through e-mail, telephone, fax or snail-mail? That way you would know exactly every bit of information they are receiving from you.

Notice that CL haven't posted here since the move?<<< Rhialto, that's because JeffH told Steve that he needn't bother or worry about anything moved or posted to C&D. We denizens of C&D are not worthy to have our concerns heard or noticed. Now where is that smeggin' map of Purgatory...

If you don't think someone from CL will see your post, you may want to e-mail Steve Yatson or someone there directly with your suggestion. I wouldn't think they would have any problem getting another Spotlight arranged with the folks here at Rendo. As far as the FAQ goes, that is already in progress and as far as the Time-Out goes, it seems that things have already slowed down...no new posts today as of this time.

I do think that you have suggested a great idea and it should not be let go. I will even e-mail CL if you want me to.

That way you would know exactly every bit of information they are receiving from you. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Not so, Jkeller. The system generates a code based (supposedly) on the configuration of various aspects of your computer. You, the owner of your computer, are not allowed to know what that information consists of. Whether Curious Labs receive the code via auto registration over the internet, or some other means, they still get info about you. Because you aren't allowed to know how that code is generated, or what it means, it could just as well be (in principle) anything from your computer. In addition to this, secret code is placed on your hard drive. You, the owner of your computer, aren't allowed to know what this code is. You, the owner of your computer, are not able to delete the code. Despite having paid money for a license to use the software, due to this system you are eventually certain to have to return to Curious Labs for additional authorisation to use it. At the moment, Curious Labs seem like a nice bunch. But businesses don't stay the same. Poser has been owned by a ruthless corporation before, and it may well be again. Who knows what hoops you might have to jump through to get authorisation? Give personal info? Call a toll number? No matter what guarantee Curious Labs may like to offer now about what happens should they go belly-up, two years down the road it might be meaningless. The current crew might have been fired, and escorted off the premises - with court injunctions preventing them from interfering with the program. Potential creditors of the company might choose to withhold the 'release' code. All of these things may seem absurd and far-fetched now, and I'm sure some of them are. But they are all possible. Companies can, and do, change. All this we know right now, without waiting for Curious Labs to make some kind of announcement. The inconvenience factor of the protection system is largely irrelevant to me. It's the principle that counts. This is the thin end of an insidious and dangerous wedge. The internet, once the shiny new standard bearer of freedom, is rapidly becoming a tool for the big brothers of commerce and government. The infuriating thing about this is that it is just pointless. I do not believe that Curious Labs revenues are being badly hit by piracy. They are having a knee jerk reaction - they might believe it, but it just isn't so (and note at the beginning of this Steve Cooper said that Curious Labs was doing very well). All they can come up with to fight the non-existent menace is a system like this - they're software engineers, they can't think of anything else. The protection system will become the plaything of crackers for the short time it takes them to destroy it, then Poser and PPP will become available again to those who wouldn't pay for it anyway. So this invasive and restrictive system will completely fail to fight an enemy that doesn't do any significant harm. If anyone wants to use new versions of Poser, they have to take their trousers down to Curious Labs. And most folk will, because most folk don't know (or want to know) any better. What will come next? After all we know for 99.999999% of sure that this system won't work. So will Poser5 require a log-on to Curious Labs every month? With more private info? Obviously, Curious Labs must fight the dragonz of warez, so whatever they do will only be reasonable. Right?

Once a piece of software, any software, including your operating system, allows the company that made that software ANY access to your computer, hackers and crackers can and WILL use that same code to get access to your computer.

well casamerica now you know how it feels. a few weeks ago i posted a thread asking that antons warez posts please be toned down or continue them here in the C&D forum. i simply wanted the paranoia and arguments to end and to get back to poser topics. scotta moved my post here within 30 min of my posting it, with a warning that "all warez related posts will be moved here from now on", yet all of the anton warez posts remained in the poser forum. i guess it only means that all posts that disagree with renderosity mods opinions, or the opinions of their pets, are swept under the rug into the C&D forum. and yes it really #%$&ing pisses me off when completely biased things like that happen, especially when you are a part of a community in which the moderators have absolute power that they are supposed to wield justly and in an unbiased fashion.

JKeller, well Steve answered one of my questions already. The other I am willing to follow my own suggestion in my banished post and give them a bit of time to put the FAQ together. If the answer isn't in there, well then they'll be hearing from me. Frankly, that is why I really don't want to email him right now. I want to do as I suggested in my banished post and give them the time to put their FAQ together and come to us in a more dignified and organized manner. Thanks for the offer though. I appreciate it.

Incase I wasn't clear, I was saying that your Spotlight suggestion is worth e-mailing to them. I think it would be a good way for us to ask those questions that the FAQ doesn't answer and a good format for that "more dignified and organized manner."

Incase I wasn't clear, I was saying that your Spotlight suggestion is worth e-mailing to them. I think it would be a good way for us to ask those questions that the FAQ doesn't answer and a good format for that "more dignified and organized manner."<<< Ooohhh! The light goes on! I see! ;-) Sorry, JK, too little caffiene, too little sleep, too many meetings and too much time sitting in front of these *$#! monitors! If you want, why don't you go ahead and suggest it to them via email. I think you're a bit more clear headed on this than I at the moment. And I really don't think Steve or any of the people at CL wander in here. Then again, maybe that pile of bones I tripped over on my way in was one of them. I don't remember seeing it there earlier. Oh, well...

E-mail sent.

snicker Well, cas, rest assured, at least one mod reads C&D on a regular basis. And, for the record, I'm no more in favor of invasive software protection and useless security measures than PJF is. Add overly complex protection measures to the list also: I spent $1,500 for a site copy of ConceptCad a few years ago that had a protection scheme that not only required a security code on install, but a call to the software company for an unlock code in addition. And, it was so sensitive to system changes that merely unplugging the cable on the drive it was installed on and reconnecting required a reinstall/new unlock code to get it working. The company that produces the software went out of the Cad business last year, and if my roommate and I hadn't badgered their tech support almost daily once they released that news, my $1500 CD set would now be a coaster. We may have one of the few no serial number site lisence sets of that prog around, simply because we gave them hell over their dropping the program support and shafting their customers. Effectively, every software company indulging in elaborate software protection is just agravating their customer base and not slowing down piracy one whit.

Ditto to much of the above. CL are good people and attend to people's bug reports, but I suspect that they had had a visit from some persuasive reps from an aggressive outside security advisory firm or consultants. They should pull out of that agreement now and ignore whatever that advisory firm's lawyers say. Some advise "cool off"; that may result mostly in this protest losing its pace and never regaining it and people start to treat this copy protection as something unavoidable and the way of the world like the world running out of oil or the coming of winter.

Well, I never said we should "cool off." I simply want a situation where the questions can be posed and answered with no excuses that the questions were not found, seen or heard. They way the discussion was going in the Poser forum, from where this suggestion was banished, there were so many threads popping up that it was, perhaps, difficult for CL to find all the questions. A period in the Interroga----,... oops, I mean Spotlight, where this would be the only topic was what I was suggesting. I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. At this point, I am still VERY much against the course CL has plotted. And, frankly, I see little chance that CL will be able to change my mind. But I think they should be given an opportunity to try in a dignified and organized manner. That's all. I see those bones are still in the doorway...

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=282683

Have to agree with casa, we may all have problems with this scheme, but if we can't discuss it in a professional manner we accomplish nothing

"The protection system will become the plaything of crackers for the short time it takes them to destroy it, then Poser and PPP will become available again to those who wouldn't pay for it anyway." had to quote PJF on that one... That's the thing that keeps getting stated in these and overlooked or shunted aside because it's inconvenient. The loss of revenue that's being shouted about is projected and largely imaginary - 80 to 90% of the people pirating the software wouldn't pay for it in the first place. That's why they're pirating it, and why they're visiting warez sites looking for freebies in the first place. That's revenue they will never see even if they succeed in making the software unstealable. [Like that's going to happen... ] Likewise, people who crack and pirate games don't buy legetimate games. It's the honest schmucks like me that eat the $49 to $59 cost of actually buying a brand new compuetr game.