I wouldn't stand it if skill-less idiots critiqued. That's what they did.
That piece would have done better in scraps, as most unrobust pieces would be.

Quote - you put a nekkid girl next to a bowl of perfect fruit in a roomfull of guys, the girl will get more attention.

:lol:  It doesn't have to be a roomful of guys, either.  Admit it.  If you walk into a room, and there's a bowl of fruit on a table, and next to the table is a naked woman, you won't notice the fruit is there.  (If only because you're wondering wtf a naked woman is doing standing there)

This is just one more reason why an "art" sight such as this should delineat galleries by the type of art and not by the tool used to make it. Since Renderosity started calling itself an "Art Community, it makes more sense. There's no reason why we can't have tool specific forums and genre specific galleries. We have to get away from being about the tools and move on to being about the art. When I post my art at deviant Art, or other places, I don't say, this was made in Poser, because I'm not showing the tool, I'm showing the art.

Quote - @Conniekat8 in order to change our POV i browsed the galleries to find a good example: pls take a look at carib98's gallery. do you think this guy (lady?/AI?) would get that kind of comments for his (her?/its?) poser images in a non-poser gallery?

Looks like very nice work. I'm not completely sure I'm understanding where you're heading with this? Could you elaborate so I can give you a more focused answer?

Meanwhile, here are a few things that come to mins, sort of along the lines of what you are mentioning. I'm not sure if that will address what you asked :)

What kind of comments an image gets may be pretty depended on the context in which it is represented and the audience.  Kind of like marketing a product. There are very few products (at the moment I can't really think of any) that appeal to everyone the same way. 

Let's rephrase this in a marketing jargon: Would the artist in question get the same feedback from a target audience with somewhat different interests and values?
What I know about marketing tells me that it is not likely to get the same response.
Showing your images, getting feedback, views, comments is a form of marketing. At least where it comes to the aspect of testing the waters with exposure and audience response.

What are we looking for? Artistic value? Commercial valye? Both? Technical skills? Someone whom can be an illustrator? Someone whom is fit to work as a level modeller in a game production? A character develpment artist for a film or TV studio? (or some other)

See, each one of theese requires a similar, but not exactly identical skillset. Is one more valuable then another? Depends on the buyer. Depends on the criteria on which it is judged....

Quote - :lol:  It doesn't have to be a roomful of guys, either.  Admit it.  If you walk into a room, and there's a bowl of fruit on a table, and next to the table is a naked woman, you won't notice the fruit is there.  (If only because you're wondering wtf a naked woman is doing standing there)

...and I'd be hoping to see a nekkid guy somewhere in there too >;)
Which brings me to a digression into whole another Poser pet peeve....
Are all Poser Men Gay? With all the Poser Pinup's can't we make a Playgirl or a Chippendale type centerfold?  :P  I'm kind of burned out on all the t&a and thinking blah, I'll never look like that. I think we need to come up with and drool over some hetero fantasy models that most men can never look like either.... So us girrrls have something to play with too ;)

I have a complaint!

I am a Red Head. (not a step son tho, just a son).

what is wrong with us Red Heads?

looks like tiari's been in my gallery again..;) guilty, on every count..;) have to admit I do make the background models myself..;)

I'm not making art, I'm making pictures..;) I do this for fun. but if anyone wants to make art, I don't care what medium or package they use. If I like it, I like it..;)

Quote - I have a complaint!

I am a Red Head. (not a step son tho, just a son).

what is wrong with us Red Heads?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=red+headed+stepchild

Quote - I have a complaint!
I am a Red Head. (not a step son tho, just a son).
what is wrong with us Red Heads?

Wrong?
Just think about how many milions of us wimminz spend our hard earned money to color our hair red!!!
And here you are, you have it all, and you;re not even a woman!
I protest, you have it too easy with all this attention you're getting !
snort [stomping feet]  ;)

[just kidding, of course]

as i said before, the bad image of poser comes from the bad poser images everywhere. amen. (btw - i am not trying to justify the rude behaviour of this guy, although i have to confess that his words:"Shit from Poser is not your work, get the goddamn Hell off of my Internet. Learn a fucking talent, loser." cover pretty much of what i feel when browsing the galleries.) soooo, accordingly the poser users uploading crappy pics are responsible - and consequently renderosity, being the host of the galleries. now what if rosity would shift/del all that crap to increase quality? all the faithful members of this community would run off to some other sites and within a couple of months rosity would be as dead as an old mans pants. that means that this site is not dedicated to show art but to make some big fat money. and when you look around the web, all this poser thing is the commercialized part of CG. it's pop, so to say... well, and some people just don't like pop..... you mentioned brit before...when you put a bullet in her neck, stuff her with hay and put her somewhere next to your tv-set you can enjoy all her qualities without having to suffer the flaws. imo, she stands for:make-people-pay-for-their-stupidity. (to pay for crap is stupid!) on the other hand, although i never met this man, the death of j.l. hooker left a hole in my life. sex vs feelings? pop vs quality? i don't like my hobby being commercialized. A. ps - i had my hair red too (and some other hues as well) - well, ages ago...just made me paranoid;)

Quote - as i said before, the bad image of poser comes from the bad poser images everywhere. amen.

Bad art is bad art, doesn't matter if it's done with Poser, Max, or a paintbrush.

Quote -  (btw - i am not trying to justify the rude behaviour of this guy, although i have to confess that his words:"Shit from Poser is not your work, get the goddamn Hell off of my Internet. Learn a fucking talent, loser." cover pretty much of what i feel when browsing the galleries.)

Bullcrap! It's MY internet!:tt2:

Quote - soooo, accordingly the poser users uploading crappy pics are responsible - and consequently renderosity, being the host of the galleries. now what if rosity would shift/del all that crap to increase quality?

Sooooo, since CNN is a news site that hosts news stories, I suppose that makes CNN responsible for all the crap going on in the world. ;)

Quote -  i don't like my hobby being commercialized.

There isn't a hobby that isn't commercialized! In fact I can't think of much that isn't commercialized these days.

I still think it boils down tothe fact that there are elitists and snobs in the CG world, just like there are elitists and snobs in the art world. The elitists and snobs want to keep the doors closed to "outsiders", just like unions and tradesmen try to keep the doors closed to people that aren't members of their group.  

Quote - Yes - Poser is indeed the redheaded stepchild O' 3D.  

But it's hot and puts out, so I love it.

ahahahahahah! 

and for those unaware, the image in question was posted to to the 3D female character section on DA, so it was not in an unexpected place or out of context for the gallery.

Quote - "Bullcrap! It's MY internet!" you claim it? it's all yours;) Quote - "Sooooo, since CNN is a news site that hosts news stories, I suppose that makes CNN responsible for all the crap going on in the world. ;)" hell, no! of course not! would be a bit too easy, right? but i could blame CNN for doing the goebbels-talk for those responsible for a good part of all the crap going on in the world instead...better? Quote - "I still think it boils down tothe fact that there are elitists and snobs in the CG world, just like there are elitists and snobs in the art world. The elitists and snobs want to keep the doors closed to "outsiders", just like unions and tradesmen try to keep the doors closed to people that aren't members of their group." if you knit some nice mesh and texture it nicely i am absolutely sure that every CG-gallery will welcome you with open arms. if you prefer to render blackhearted's GND in awful soul's clothes surrounded by DM's primitives, you should not be disappointed, if some people refuse to pay the respect you are looking for..... simple, isn't it?

that's quite funny...when i look at art, no matter the medium i always look for how well it is done and not pile everyone in the same garbage as the others.

i keep hearing a lot of people bash poser, but 75% of them hasn't even touched the software to see it for what it is. whenever someone pops in my gallery at dev art and asks me why i use it, i'd always say "because it is the one software i can afford aside from vue and if given the chance that i can afford the high end ones, i'll probably be better than most of them".  people have preconceived notions just because poser uses what they call a "ready made" figures and props but lemme tell ya, without  an understanding of how the lighting, materials, and all the other things involved in it and let's not forget IMAGINATION - you won't be able to generate a decent artwork. i get a lot of commissions using poser...granted, i only use it to create the first part of the scene and finish it off in vue but i still use it. bottom line to this really is - jealousy. because nobody really fav or watches them as much as people do with other 3d users out there and some of them happens to use poser and that really gets their undies in a bunch.

in closing, like i always say - their software might be bigger than mine, but i know how to use mine ;)

As long as the program is called "Poser" people will just assume that it's for posers. :( 

Quote - and for those unaware, the image in question was posted to to the 3D female character section on DA, so it was not in an unexpected place or out of context for the gallery.

Actually it was, since it was a "test" and not a finished piece of art, the proper context would have been to post it in your "scraps"  which is for works in progress, tests, experiments, and pieces unsuitable for the actual galleries.

Quote - if you knit some nice mesh and texture it nicely i am absolutely sure that every CG-gallery will welcome you with open arms.
if you prefer to render blackhearted's GND in awful soul's clothes surrounded by DM's primitives, you should not be disappointed, if some people refuse to pay the respect you are looking for.....

simple, isn't it?

Not really. If your work is good, it will be accepted for what it is...art, except by the snobs and elitists who will evaluate it based on their limited view. They are not worth paying attention to. However, one should not post a Poser render at a site dedicated to highend CG software where the primary focus in on modeling your own meshes and expect anything less than a lambasting.

I've been posting my 3D art on deviant art for a couple of years now, and in fact there are several Poser related communities on the site.

arcady.deviantart.com
I'm a member of at least 3 communities for Poser artists there.

This kind of attack is unusual there, but it will happen, just as it happens in a number of places. Some of the creators of the content Poser artists use are themselves the ones making these attacks against their own customers - albeit they won't do it so publicly, put them in a chat room together and it comes out...

It's the same sort of thing you would get against photography, as well as graphic design styles such as Dadaism, Sampling in music, and Pop art such as Warhol. In time all of these things have come to be seen as art, but when they were young they all faced criticism.

One thing I have noticed is that the people making many of these attacks against our style of 'Poser Art' are themselves often quite bad at composition, lighting, rendering, and / or postwork. They can make the blocks, but they don't know how to put them together - sometimes all you are seeing is resentment against someone who takes their blocks and puts them together into something much more beautiful or 'artistic' / 'inspired' / 'themed' whatever than they could...

A toilet is not art, and the maker of that toilet not an artist, but in the hands of Duchamp it becomes one of the most famous pieces of art in the 20th century. It has been a long time since the plumber was yelling at the Dadist and saying he was the better artist... and in time these critics of Poser art will die down as well.

Quote - "Sooooo, since CNN is a news site that hosts news stories, I suppose that makes CNN responsible for all the crap going on in the world. ;)"

No, that's Fox News that holds the blame.

Amacord seems to be forgetting (actually, I don't think Amacord has ever got as far as contemplating this) that a site like this invites people with very limited skill (like me - I'm well aware of the fact) to display work, with a view to prompting advice from currently more accomplished individuals.    Amacord's attitude seems to be that "artists" spring into existence perfectly formed.   I don't see any works by Amacord in the gallery, so, presumably, he/she/it is already at a pinnacle of perfection and requires no such advice.

@morgano you are not trying to make this personal, are you? if yes, come and have it, but not here. if no - i don't upload my stuff. not because i'm too good. it's because i'm too bad - in setting up a render, that is. plus, i don't give a ... about hits and comments and other kindergarten-games.

Amacord wants Renderosity to delete all of the Poser "crap".   Does it think that anything in Poser is "crap" by definition, which would seem to torpedo its earlier arguments in this thread, or is it thinking that Renderosity should appoint a judge (presumably with a name roughly rhyming with  llama-board) to expel anything that is not fit to see the light of day on the web?

And what on earth is this on about????:

you mentioned brit before...when you put a bullet in her neck, stuff her with hay and put her somewhere next to your tv-set you can enjoy all her qualities without having to suffer the flaws. imo, she stands for:make-people-pay-for-their-stupidity. (to pay for crap is stupid!)
on the other hand, although i never met this man, the death of j.l. hooker left a hole in my life.

sure, honey, it's ok...i am the bad guy. you won. everything is all right now. and go and do some art.

Hey, let's not make this personal, k?  Personal attacks are violations of the TOS, and I can see this headed down that path.

Quote - No, that's Fox News that holds the blame./

Well I can't disagree with you there! ;-)

Poser the red headed step child? no I'd say Poser is the one who opened up the closet & let out all the secrets that professional artists wanted to keep to themselves & that's why they hate it so much.

heh..I always supposed that talent was an innate ability, while a skill was something you learn..;) but that's me..;)

As said before, last I checked, DA had about 15 million pics, and navigating that haystack is hard to do..which is why I like this place; you can search on artist, packages, etc., without having to scratch your head. Or use run-on sentances..;)

I think both galleries has it's own sets of pros and cons. Traditional artists would argue that Renderosity caters more to 3D (have heard that a number of times). I have an account in both, however, I get a lot more commissions through DA than here. One thing that frustrates me though is the fact that most would turn up their noses once they hear the P word uttered. If it is indeed an easy tool and people uses "pre-made" figures to create an image then there wouldn't be a single crappy poser image out there right? We all have to start somewhere...it took me months to learn my way around it and it was only because of the people that gave me feedbacks and suggestions on how I can improve it. Instead of being all high and mighty about how big ones software is - why not help those that you think needs their craft improving? Afterall isn't that what a "community" is supposed to be?

Quote - Poser the red headed step child? no I'd say Poser is the one who opened up the closet & let out all the secrets that professional artists wanted to keep to themselves & that's why they hate it so much.

you mean, like the Mac vs PC war?

Quote - you mean, like the Mac vs PC war?

Not really, there's never been that much difference between them from the start.

@lucifer understood, but this leads me OT, for it touches my main problem with poser. isn't the primary purpose of poser to move/pose the human body? and in this matter - unlike the rest of CG-industry - poser failed to improve. what can i do? i can't effort maya, and even if i had the tin, it would not necessarily mean that i would master it. so it's poser and mostly canned content for me. and i like it! it's my hobby, my toy (my preciousss)! but this 'art'-thing and fishing for attention and compliments and uploading my pics in ten different galleries - c'mon.....

So basically you're saying that those who upload their rendered images in the gallery (or galleries) are fishing for attention? Okay, I didn't know that. Bugger all the constructive crisiticisms and the quest to get better in this medium - give me attention damn it!

Quote - So basically you're saying that those who upload their rendered images in the gallery (or galleries) are fishing for attention? Okay, I didn't know that. Bugger all the constructive crisiticisms and the quest to get better in this medium - give me attention damn it!

ouch! look, english is my second language - might well be that my 'fishing for attention' sounds way more harsh than i mean it. when you upload an image you do it because you want people to see it, and you hope that people like your work. maybe you even hope to attract a customers attention. you want people to tell you what they think about your work. you want their feedback - i.e.: comments. now what you get is (hopefully) a lot of compliments - but no constructice criticisms. because it's such a thing with constructice criticisms. to write:' nice pic but your lights are no good.' is insufficient and most likely to end in a bloodshed. to be 'constructice' i would have to tell you: - what i don't like about your lights - and why. - what you should change - and how - and (optional) link you to a good tutorial ar a good image to compare. summing it up i'd have to write some 50 words at least. that's for lights only! let's face the facts: nobody takes the trouble to do that! so i think that the only thing you can learn in the galleries is peoples taste. weeell, if you need that... in the galleries you get attention. but knowledge and new skills are to be found in tutorials and in the forum. your 'give me attention damn it!' made me smile...say, why don't you link me to one of your images and i tell you what i think about it via PM. might help to make you understand better what i mean? how about it? could take some time though....

Without reading every post here - I dropped out of my Fine Arts major in college after seeing Andy Warhol's work and also seeing pieces of carpet felt - gray carpet felt - hung on the Detroit Institute of Arts walls and labeled "art". There is not a darn thing wrong with Poser as art. It is not that easy to learn. Just check  out my early renders in my gallery. I did not even know how to move people around, LOL!!!!!  An antique dealer I knew years ago said antiques - or art - was worth what people thought it was worth. In the case of breakable items, he said "It's all worth the same when it hits the floor". Moral, art is subjective, and what we make it to be.

I use Poser on a Mac and I am completely unapologetic about it (for application and platform)! Both of these have been subject to ridicule by various folks I know who think both of these are toys only. I have learned over the years to let it go because IMO these people just don't know what they are missing. Those, like the original subject of this thread, that get hostile should be ignored, simple as that. I don't think of Poser as an art creator. I think of it like digital photography for control freaks. :-) Think about it, when you photograph something you aren't criticized for not having made the chair, the table and the lamp in your image, nor for not having grown the fruit in that bowl by yourself with your own hands. You are noted for the lighting, the depth of field, and the composition. The same is true for Poser. Poser art, to me, is the same as a photo and I judge my own art by a photo-based standard. For me it is all about telling a story, about drawing the viewer in and most of all about feeling good about what I create. If other people don't consider what I do art, well, I say, screw 'em!!!

My thoughts on this haven't really ever changed.  Only when the bulk of the modeling is original should the work be posted in a modeling forum.  Otherwise,  renders should be judged by the same standards as a photograph; on their composition, lighting, "exposure" etc.  It seems ridiculous to me that I can take a photo of someone in a public place and call it art, but I can't render an image of a stock figure without being criticised for not modeling the subject.  I guess it probably depends on whether it is an art forum or a CG forum, but hopefully someday the art of rendering will get recognition apart from the modeling and rigging (whether or not done by the same artist) involved.

What kierab said! ;)

Quote - My thoughts on this haven't really ever changed.  Only when the bulk of the modeling is original should the work be posted in a modeling forum.  Otherwise,  renders should be judged by the same standards as a photograph; on their composition, lighting, "exposure" etc.  It seems ridiculous to me that I can take a photo of someone in a public place and call it art, but I can't render an image of a stock figure without being criticised for not modeling the subject.  I guess it probably depends on whether it is an art forum or a CG forum, but hopefully someday the art of rendering will get recognition apart from the modeling and rigging (whether or not done by the same artist) involved.

Yes, but all too often Poser is used simply to render completed scenes that have already been set up entirely by 3rd parties.  Nothing wrong with that, but when people post a render that has given credit to other people for not only the models, but also the textures, lighting, materials, etc., then someone in a CG art forum must wonder what was really done by the person who uploaded the image, other than positioning a camera and pressing 'render' (in Poser, render setting values can be just a preset configuration as well).  When you buy a scene from Daz, for instance, all you have to do is load the props into the scene, and they position themselves accordingly (usually).  Even character poses are a purchased item in many cases.  I don't think there's very many people using Poser who bother implimenting simulated photographic effects like lens flares, specular bloom, motion blur, or even so much as adjusting focal length or using DOF on the camera.

There was a program on some news show last night discussing the proliferation of  "stock photography" on the web, and how it is affecting consumer confidence.  Basically, they touched on the point that consumers can become confused if they visit two websites of a distinctly different nature, but using the same stock images in their website design.

Unfortunately, I think Poser has gained the reputation of being the 'stock image provider' of the 3D art world by some of it's peers.  However unfair that analogy may be, it has no doubt created an atmosphere of prejudice and confusion toward the software itself, and it's users.

Quote - So basically you're saying that those who upload their rendered images in the gallery (or galleries) are fishing for attention? Okay, I didn't know that. Bugger all the constructive crisiticisms and the quest to get better in this medium - give me attention damn it!

Even if some people are 'fishing for attention'...so what????
If they're good at it, and if those giving them attention are entertained, and fills their wish for a bit of social and community atmosphere, none of that is some terribly bad thing.

I tend to call it socialize rather then fish for atention, it's normal for human beings to want to socialize with one another.
I'm wondering why someone would prefer to stand on the sidelines, not really share and participate, and then negatively judge those whom are participating making friends and enjoying themselves. Artsy fartsy stuff in not only about expressing yourself, by yourself in a dark corner where noone sees or hears you. Artsy fartsy stuff is about communicating with other people too, so this big bad attention getting thing is an integral part of art.

And if someone is actually getting attention, and it's mostly positive, then they're doing something right! Sure, sometimes that side gets over-emphasized at the cost of possibly improving technique...  But, you know what, life is a long time, and things seldom stay static for too long. For most people when things swing a little closer to one extreme or another, it's a phase. Just because you see something right now, doesn't mean it will stay that way forever.

ok, after posting your latest image a peer comes by and drops a friendly comment about your work. a couple of days later you run into this persons gallery and, being a friendly person, you leave a couple of friendly words too. nice. i'm sure that you agree when i say that this discription covers some 95% of gallery-talk. i do not say, that this kind of communication is bad or wrong. what i say is that i am not longing for it, because this soup is a bit too thin for my taste. it reminds me of the addon-material on dvd's where some 99% are filled with actors and director praising each other. (yawn!) something funny happened to me - or better: unexpected... in this thread i invited rainfeather for a bit of constructive criticism. unfortunately this person did not answer this invitation. but, luckily, someone else did. she wrote: '99% of the feedback I get in my gallery is positive and as you say, it isn't particularly helpful, even if it does tend to stoke the ego... ', which covers my words...well, not that this comes as a surprise;) you know what the really dang good thing about it is? she asks me, a stranger without gallery, store or freebies, nothing but a big mouth, for my opinion about her work. believe me... T H I S is the kind of compliment that 'feeds' me!:b_cool:

I tend to be my own worst critic. I learned a LOT of art theory, some from being home schooled in art, some from self study... I doubt that I could ever live up to the theory I know :(

When I get stuck, and can't tell what's wrong with the image, I make a WIP post...

I kind of don't look at galleries here as a place to get a lot of art critique. It's more of a general audience response kind of a feedback. It;s more likely to give you some clue if your art has some likelyhood of commercial success, rather then a lot of feedback on it's technique quality.

However, I do find feedback on possibility of commercial success and general audience response to be valuable feedback too. It's not always about technique. Sometimes it's about whether the more general audience 'gets' your image.

i scratch my head, i scratch my chin, i go and fetch a cup of coffee...damnit, i can't find a way to contradict! sighs and hoists the white flag ;) A.

Quote - in all fairness..most of the art I wind up seeing at Deviant Art is hand-drawn (sometimes good, sometimes...uh....;) and actually, now that I think of it, I haven't seen any Poser art there. Of course, there's so much stuff there (15 million piccys), that I'm sure I've missed it. It seems to be more for a younger (much) set than here..;)

Heres some

blackwingedangelo.deviantart.com/gallery/

I just consider it polite to respond to people who comment on my piccys. I always send a thank you to whomever comments. Sometimes I've even gone to their galleries to see.

Quote - i scratch my head, i scratch my chin, i go and fetch a cup of coffee...damnit, i can't find a way to contradict! sighs and hoists the white flag ;) A.

Haha, gotcha!    It's a woman thing, we wimminz are always right, don'cha know that already??? :P
Okay, just kidding... I wasn't out to get ya.
Just being silly today, YAY it's Friday :)  Happy friday!
No heavily intelectual topics today, I could sprain the last braincell I have left for this week .
[oh, Kitty... shut up already]

"Haha, gotcha! It's a woman thing, we wimminz are always right, don'cha know that already??? :P" rolls the eyes, mumbles something and stuts off to the tv-set to watch some football enjoy your weekend! A.

i post very frequently on Deviant art...with the vast majority being positive comments...you do get the odd jerk, but you just have to take them for what they are..DA has actually developed a really thriving poser community

if there was only a way to find it..;)

your best bet is to join a couple of the poser based clubs on da...the one where I am most familiar is 3-d connect...sending you a link :)  

http://3dconnect.deviantart.com/

The worst thing about Poser is.... you'll find derivatives of your work - sooner or later.  That is... if you paint Mona Lisa (V3) - you'll see some other folks using it as well... making your picture of V3  worth less or worthless - whichever is less.

The best bet is using rare or unrecognized models that people haven't seen it.  That would give a work more prestige... but if everyone has it... your render is useless and a waste of time.

For this reason, Renderosity continues to thrive on new contents.