Interesting......my cats have never displayed any special interest in cookies.

However -- on occasion -- we'll find the mangled legs of various types of insects scattered around on the kitchen floor.  The insect's bodies are always missing.  But the cookies remain untouched on the shelf.

Could be that the cats like the flavor better.

Quote - shrug

*I'd say that users of Flash animations represent a far larger proportion of web traffic than do heavy 3D-only users.

You can always find larger sites.  But you need to compare apples with apples.*

Yeah, why is that?  Flash used to be known as that annoying plugin that puts distracting ads on your webpages.  Professional animators looked at it, and thought it was useless for serious animation work.

And when Newgrounds came out, its reputation was even worse than Flash in general - people thought everything on it was tacky, amateur, tasteless, poorly drawn junk that made you want to break your TV screen.

I can only assume that Newgrounds had deep faith in what it was and who it supported, and allowed the visitors to do what they did best - rather than, say, assume that the visitors had to be kept in check, lest they "scare off" other visitors.

Then they started attracting more and more people - including people with more experience, and more talent.

Xeophonz, If we accept that there is a natural difference of interest between Flash animations and 3D pictures, why did the ratio of that difference increase over the past five years?  In 2002, We can see that Newgrounds hovered around 75 million pageviews/day, versus 20 million pageviews/day.

Why did Newgrounds double to roughly 100 million pageviews/day, while Renderosity stagnated at the same level?  In fact, if we look at the 2006-7 years, Renderosity's pageview count has drifted downward, nearing the 10 million pageviews/day level.

If you want something more apple-y .. well.. you should take a look at cgsociety.org sometime.

Just take a look at the front page, and you'll see some pretty impressive stuff.  Then head off to Alexa and check the statistics, and you'll be impressed again.

These are the folks who wanted to be treated like adults, and the place they found that would let them.  Renderosity could have had them on their side, and still kept an atmosphere for beginners - but this site had different ideas.

I happen to love Flash... and Searched out Newgrounds and signed up.

I'm sure "one of" the contributions to the growth of a site of it's nature( Dedicated to Flash)...is the fact that "Flash" (The Program..and thus..the subsequent viewer plug-in) itself has come along way in it's past several releases. The ability to import various video formats, entire folders of bitmap sequences, More robust Action Script, Export and Output improvements.tighter integration with Dreamweaver, Fireworks, FreeHand..etc....the list goes on and on. Not just the old "Poorly drawn junk" it was in it's earlier days.

Naturally as the development of the application gets better, so does the interest in it, and thus the membership of the sites that are dedicated to it.

As I said..."One Of"  the contributions to it's growth...I've not been a member long enough to get a feel for the way things are run to give an informed opinion or appraisal of other reasons for it's success.

The one thing I love especially about flash...is there is no need for special codec's n-stuff to view...If your current Browser plug-in needs updated to view something...you are directed to the appropriate site page (Adobe now) to upgrade your plug-in for a short download of the latest viewer....No search and find mission to locate, install and configure a codec "You Hope" is the right one...etc.(And Possibly a re-boot to complete the install). By that time...many may lose interest in what they were trying to view in the first place.

Flash just seems "Cleaner" and more compact (For Web Viewing especially)...AND...it's "Interactive".

Yeah..Yeah...we've all heard of the possible "Security Vulnerabilities" via malicious script, but I seem to think one takes chances every time they go out on the net...Security Suites are only as effective as your last definitions update...One just has to use some common sense when "Choosing" where to go, and what to download from the net.

Anyway...I never did quite "Get" the whole "Flash Bashing" Thing....I mean...even an animated .gif can be annoying.

Thanks for the mention of that site...It'll be an interesting new place for me to check out.

BTW ...Whatever happened to the "Flash Forum" here at Renderosity? rbtwhiz Moderated it long ago IIRC.

Tom

Like I said -- you can always find larger sites.  I'll one-up your examples with bigger sites still (but not in Rendo's staked-out territory ).  For example -- your favorite site (Newgrounds) vs. youtube.  I suppose that this means that youtube's submission policies are "superior" to those of Newgrounds.  Even though youtube and Newgrounds are dealing with totally different types of subject matter.

I have no objections to cgsociety.  If CG was the way that I made my living, then I'd probably join up there  (Perhaps Rendo should become a subscription site, too. ).  Cgsociety is more "apple-ey" vis-a-vis Rendo than a site like Newgrounds -- but you still aren't dealing with precisely the same type of website.  3D is one aspect of CG -- but only one.  CG involves a lot more than just 3D work.

It's interesting that you would pick cgsociety, because you aren't likely to find the type of work that is often complained about not being allowed in the galleries here over there, either.  For that matter, threads like this one wouldn't even be allowed to happen.  They'd be moderated out of existence so fast that it'd make your head spin.

Perhaps Rendo should take note of that fact -- and become even MORE restrictive.  Doing what cgsociety does -- and individually reviewing submissions to the main galleries before allowing them to be posted.  Wouldn't that go over well..........

A website -- just like any other type of business -- has to know who their customers are.  And then they have to tailor their appeal to that specific base.  I believe that cgsociety has accomplished this -- and I believe that Renderosity has likewise accomplished this.

So have youtube and myspace.  As well as ebay and amazon.

It's just that some areas of interest have a much larger built-in customer base than do others.

In its own area of appeal -- and to its own audience -- Rendo has the game right.  Other websites have tried doing it in different ways.  And other websites haven't enjoyed the success that Renderosity has -- in its field.

"I get the feeling that no matter what Rendo did, you'd find fault with it."

No, I only find fault with what they are doing, which is masquerading as a serious art site, while essentially being little more than the clay aisle in an art supply store.

In fact, my frustration and irritation with Renderosity is that, considering the amount of talent around here, it could be...So.Much.More.
But, it's not, and it won't be, because the whole idea is to cash in on the quick-fix, digital girlie scene.
Again, that's fine. I'm a huge lover of capitalism, and that's what this is, but I have a problem when they imply, or someone states that it's anything more than a place to buy Poser stuff. Is not a community, is not serious about anything but creating an atmosphere suitable to make one want to buy more Poser stuff, and to be able to do so comfortably.
I frequent alot of the "serious" sites, and I don't see the rampant spreading of product credits and such in those places as I do here, don't see the pretentiousness, don't see that faked happy-happy, joy-joy sentimentality.
I see that sort of faked sentimentality from the Wal Mart publicity department.

Frankly, something puzzles me.  I don't understand why I would waste my time hanging around and sniping at a place that I considered to be so unimportant in the overall scheme of things.  I'd spend my time at a more important, 'serious' site.  A place that I liked.

And I like this one.  So do quite a few other people.  Most of them don't bother with threads like this one.

This place is just like a lot of other places.  What you see when you look around in here depends upon your own internal filters.  I'm sure that cgsociety has its haters, too.  It's just that the site is run in such a way that you'll never hear anything from them on that site.  It's not allowed.  Unlike here.

Ah, the ol' tried-n-true, "If you don't like it, go away" - always a favorite, and sometimes it works, even.

" And I like this one.  So do quite a few other people.  Most of them don't bother with threads like this one."

This is true. Most of them aren't aware of such things going on elsewhere on the server, and that's good for them. They're happy, that's fine. I wouldn't say they even need know the discontent which lurks beyond their awareness.

My own "internal filters" see what is to be seen; just like I see the ad posters at my local supermarket to be designed to sell me stuff, regardless of how pretty it's packaged.

"I'm sure that cgsociety has its haters, too.  It's just that the site is run in such a way that you'll never hear anything from them on that site.  It's not allowed.  Unlike here."

I'm not a hater - I'm disappointed in the direction.
Oh, now, far as "not allowed" is concerned, I could name a few forums which went bye-bye - poof - because they were deemed to be potentially harmful to sales...I mean, harmful to the esoteric "Community Spirit" which is forced upon...I mean inherent to, this place

The 'ol "if you don't like it, go away" policy works for me.  Personally, I don't torture myself by hanging around places that I don't like.  But -- I suppose that others are inherently masochistic by nature, and insist upon eating at restaurants where they can't stand the taste of the food.  Talk about 'force-feeding'...........

It's the 'ol tried-'n-true game of vehemently denying the importance of something, and then spending copious amounts of time in attacking that unimportant thing.....with just about every chance that one gets to do so.

This has the effect of turning that unimportant thing into an icon.  Icons have a shared characteristic -- they are always irrisitably attractive to iconoclasts.  Much like insects banging their heads against a streetlamp.  They just can't help themselves.

I like to know what's for sale at my local supermarket.  It could be that I might want some.

"No, I only find fault with what they are doing, which is masquerading as a serious art site, while essentially being little more than the clay aisle in an art supply store."

I won't comment on the rest of your posts because I have disagreements with Rosity myself and my views are well known. But I'm not a person to fight battles I can't win, and in the end aren't important enough to risk my rather fragile health getting excited over.

Is Rosity an art site? No. Neither is Cgsociety or any other site on the net. Any good, professional site that displays art is in the business of making money to support itself. That's the real;ity of the world. I see nothing wrong with it, apart from the sad fact I can't make a few bucks myself and improve my miserable life. Sure, it would be nice to have a site totally dedicated to art. Maybe you could put one up on geocities.

The art on Rosity depends on the users. 90% of what gets posted here is well meaning amateurs who just aren't there yet, but are trying, and hoping to get help to get better. 8% of the rest is an attempt at creating art. And 2% actually reaches the realm of art. CGsociety has a slightly larger percentage, but not by much. Oh sure, those who post there are more technically proficient, but that doesn't mean their work is art. True CG art is rare. Just like true art in the real world is rare.

If you have issues with Rosity, by all means raise them. But don't complain about there being no art here. Go make some.

Bone, the argument isn't about what is art, what isn't/ what is valid, what isn't - it's about how it's presented, and, if you read all this recent from last night, you'd notice I was replying to the "can get anything 3D from here" idea.

Xeno:
Don't give me the n00b treatment, like, if I don't like it I should just shove off, and I don't have a right to my opinion. I've been here as a member for quite a while now, as I know you have been, too.

"Insects banging their heads against streetlamps..."

I think that sentence inadvertently relates my very feelings regarding the direction of this site, so, thank you for pointing it out.

*Flash makes its appearence on so many webpages that I don't believe that the matter should even be open to question.  Flash is everywhere.  3D simply is not.  Many people who wouldn't have a clue about 3D are well-versed in Flash.

*I think you're confusing Flash as a website tool with Flash as a standalone art form here.

*For example -- your favorite site (Newgrounds) vs. youtube.  I suppose that this means that youtube's submission policies are "superior" to those of Newgrounds.  Even though youtube and Newgrounds are dealing with totally different types of subject matter.

*Here, you're confusing an art and games site (Newgrounds) with a site that mixes art, communication, commentary, and all sorts of other things (Youtube).  Not so much different types of subject matter, but different purposes of subject matter.

*I have no objections to cgsociety.  If CG was the way that I made my living, then I'd probably join up there  (*Perhaps Rendo should become a subscription site, too.).  Cgsociety is more "apple-ey" vis-a-vis Rendo than a site like Newgrounds -- but you still aren't dealing with precisely the same type of website.  3D is one aspect of CG -- but only one.  CG involves a lot more than just 3D work.

Well, if you're going to talk about whether something is "precisely" the same website, you can defend yourself to eternity just by defining terms.  Cgsociety is a place where both professionals, and people who want to learn, post artwork, discuss techniques, and buy from the website store.  Renderosity involves aspects of CG beyond 3D as well.  They have the same purpose, and same major features.

*It's interesting that you would pick cgsociety, because you aren't likely to find the type of work that is often complained about not being allowed in the galleries here over there, either.

*Look, I've seen a dismembered penis on a dinner plate with a fork stuck in it on that site.  The artist was going to title it "Genitals for lunch" before deciding on some other title (what was it - "Not Kosher"..?)

The artists were cool with it.

*Perhaps Rendo should take note of that fact -- and become even MORE restrictive.  Doing what cgsociety does -- and individually reviewing submissions to the main galleries before allowing them to be posted.  Wouldn't that go over well..........

*Cgsociety's central focus is its forums, not its gallery.  The majority of new and incoming work comes through forum posts.

*A website -- just like any other type of business -- has to know who their customers are.  And then they have to tailor their appeal to that specific base.  I believe that cgsociety has accomplished this -- and I believe that Renderosity has likewise accomplished this.

Well, I disagree in a way that's my central thrust, here.  Despite having the kind of growth that many website have had, Renderosity has failed to live up to its true potential owing to the fact that it struggles with its base, trying to protect the website from a sense of offense that the artists in Renderosity, for the most part, just don't have.

And this is why other websites of the same purpose (a phrase that I consider more insightful and important than the phrase in its field) do as well as they do - they let the artists be as irrepressible as artists can be.

*Frankly, something puzzles me.  I don't understand why I would waste my time hanging around and sniping at a place that I considered to be so unimportant in the overall scheme of things.

• Xenophonz, I don't dislike Renderosity - or at least, I don't dislike the pictures that get posted to this site.

But I can be disappointed in it, even if I like the site.  So I've been personally boycotting the place, reducing my viewing to the one or two artists I like the most.

So one day, I visit the forum and see Xenophonz giving the usual line - "If cutting artistic freedom is wrong, why is the site doing so well?"  I'd heard it before, and decided to finally say something.

People have argued the point before, complaining about new and more limiting Terms of Service, but it was always from a standpoint of artistic freedom and what's right or wrong; artists who were hurt that their options were cut off, and were visiting the forum to make pleas to get their power back.  Those folks could easily have their vulnerable position turned against them in the argument.

I felt the debate needed someone more neutral, someone who the website didn't have any power over and couldn't be easily ignored by the tyranny of the majority; someone who would come in and say that people don't do what's right and fair for the hell of it, just to be nice - people do what's right and fair because it's good sense, it builds foundations, it protects you against the future.

Renderosity thinks that its artistic community is a hedge that needs to have its branches pruned; but no, it's a tree that needs to have its roots watered.

Maybe one day I can stop my boycott, eh?  Wouldn't that be great.  Because I liked old-school Renderosity.

Quote - I think you're confusing Flash as a website tool with Flash as a standalone art form here.

Nope.

Flash is -- first and foremost -- a website tool.  That's its primary purpose, and that's what the vast majority of Flash users use it for.  I am not denying that Flash can be used specifically to create art -- but I am pointing out that "art" is most definitely not what most Flash applications are created for -- unless if one considers ubiquitous web advertising to be an art form.

*> Quote - Here, you're confusing an art and games site (Newgrounds) with a site that mixes art, communication, commentary, and all sorts of other things (Youtube).  Not so much different types of subject matter, but different purposes of subject matter.

I'm not "confusing" anything.  You are the one who is confusing sites of varying purposes with one another in an attempt to draw non-existent parallels.  I, on the other hand, am pointing out the clear distinctions which exist between them.

*> Quote - Well, if you're going to talk about whether something is "precisely" the same website, you can defend yourself to eternity just by defining terms.  Cgsociety is a place where both professionals, and people who want to learn, post artwork, discuss techniques, and buy from the website store.  Renderosity involves aspects of CG beyond 3D as well.  They have the same purpose, and same major features.

While it is certainly true that Renderosity has aspects of CG beyond 3D -- I believe that most anyone would recognize that the emphasis here is decidedly upon 3D.  I don't believe that you can say that about cgsociety.  Cgsociety involves everything from gaming-specific graphics to film techniques to whatever -- everything CG.  While you can find all of that here, it isn't the primary focus.

Like I stated earlier -- perhaps the lesson here is that Renderosity should tighten up its forum policies and start individually reviewing submissions to the galleries before allowing them to be posted.  After all -- that's what cgsociety does.  And we need to follow their example in all things, right?

*> Quote - Look, I've seen a dismembered penis on a dinner plate with a fork stuck in it on that site.  The artist was going to title it "Genitals for lunch" before deciding on some other title (what was it - "Not Kosher"..?)

Not something that I personally care to see.  But there are websites where such subject matter is "kosher', and within the rules of those websites.  Rendo isn't one of them.

Quote - The artists were cool with it.

Good for them.

*> Quote - Cgsociety's central focus is its forums, not its gallery.  The majority of new and incoming work comes through forum posts.

That's good to know -- although a lot of work comes in through forum posts here, too.

Quote - Well, I disagree in a way that's my central thrust, here.  Despite having the kind of growth that many website have had, Renderosity has failed to live up to its true potential owing to the fact that it struggles with its base, trying to protect the website from a sense of offense that the artists in Renderosity, for the most part, just don't have.

Here you are making some substantive assumptions.  For one thing, you are taking attitudes which you hold to personally -- along with a few other occasional posters (a very tiny group, considering the website's overall membership) -- and then you are projecting those attitudes out onto a supposed majority.

Sorry -- but I reject the reasoning because I reject the underlying assumptions which the reasoning is founded upon.

Believe me -- the administration at Renderosity knows who their members are.  And they know what "the most part" of those members want.  By contrast, you are in no position to know the facts of the case as to what "the most part" wants -- nor are you in any position to claim that knowledge.

Quote - And this is why other websites of the same purpose (a phrase that I consider more insightful and important than the phrase in its field) do as well as they do - they let the artists be as irrepressible as artists can be.

Yep.  "Irrepressible".  Another word for "anything goes".  Cgsociety isn't "anything goes".  In fact, I know of very few websites which truly are "anything goes".  Even those websites which claim to be such have been known to expel unruly/unwanted members for the things that they were doing to the site.

If anyone wants to lay claim to the mantle of truly allowing "irrepressible" to be the ruling culture of their website -- then they can't have any rules.  Everyone should be allowed to do anything without being 'repressed' or hindered in any way.

Try running a website like that, and see what happens.  It wouldn't be too far removed from the concept of allowing the gangs to take over and rule downtown Los Angeles for their own amusement.  A few "bosses" with gangs of weaker hangers-on following them.  Advancement by stabbing the other one -- power by force.  Nice idea.  It's done on USENET -- but I'm not aware of too many websites of any size with such a culture.  Including cgsociety and Newgrounds.

*> Quote - Xenophonz, I don't dislike Renderosity - or at least, I don't dislike the pictures that get posted to this site.

But I can be disappointed in it, even if I like the site.  So I've been personally boycotting the place, reducing my viewing to the one or two artists I like the most.

So one day, I visit the forum and see Xenophonz giving the usual line - "If cutting artistic freedom is wrong, why is the site doing so well?"  I'd heard it before, and decided to finally say something.

I note the quotation marks around the above statement.  But I don't recall ever typing out those words anywhere.........I believe that it's called 'putting words in someone else's mouth'.

With the statement "if cutting artistic freedom is wrong", you have attributed your opinions to me.

"Artistic freedom" isn't a synonym for anarchy.  Although that's obviously the way that some would like to define it for the rest of us.

Some hold to a principle which states: "We can force you to be free."  The essence of freedom, of course, being defined for the rest of us.  Not being a thing whose nature we are permitted to define for and by ourselves -- under the rules which we prefer to live by.  No, no......we must have 'freedom'.  And we must have it your way.  Not our way.

It's another example of the truth of the old adage: "Freedom isn't free."  Especially not when the inmates are allowed to run the asylum.

Quote - People have argued the point before, complaining about new and more limiting Terms of Service, but it was always from a standpoint of artistic freedom and what's right or wrong; artists who were hurt that their options were cut off, and were visiting the forum to make pleas to get their power back.  Those folks could easily have their vulnerable position turned against them in the argument.

I felt the debate needed someone more neutral, someone who the website didn't have any power over and couldn't be easily ignored by the tyranny of the majority; someone who would come in and say that people don't do what's right and fair for the hell of it, just to be nice - people do what's right and fair because it's good sense, it builds foundations, it protects you against the future.

Renderosity thinks that its artistic community is a hedge that needs to have its branches pruned; but no, it's a tree that needs to have its roots watered.

Maybe one day I can stop my boycott, eh?  Wouldn't that be great.  Because I liked old-school Renderosity.

This is a common technique seen in use among left-leaning political debaters.  They always want to claim to be "neutral" on any given topic -- when it's quite clear that they have staked out a position which is anything but "neutral".  It's just that they prefer to avoid the baggage which accompanies their true position -- were they to stand flat-footed and defend it.  The technique represents a neat little bit of verbal side-stepping -- holding to a point of view -- and then claiming that one's personal point of view represents "neutrality".  When it so obviously does not.

I believe that there's plenty of inspiration to be had here.  That's one reason why I hang around.

Another reason is that it's just plain fun.

But those reasons are my own -- others are welcome to their reasons.  It's all an individual thing.  And that's a part of being in this place.

Renderosity is a lot bigger than it used to be.  And it's still growing, too.  Most websites have ups and downs over time --  even google is sometimes "down" in the overall traffic rankings.  But I don't think that google has anything to worry about.  Neither does Renderosity.  And this goes against all of the predictions which have been made by the doomsayers over the years.

BTW - as a side note, do a google on "Alexa".  You'll find that there is a major, on-going, and raging controversy over the accuracy of Alexa's traffic rankings.  Personally, I tend to believe that Alexa is in the ballpark.  But I wouldn't rely on them for even 85% accuracy.  After all -- Alexa tracks and obtains its rankings via spyware which users allow Alexa to install on their computers.  I'd never have it on mine.  I'd dare say that most web-literate types wouldn't, either.

As for boycotts -- they generally don't work.  Especially when such boycotts are practiced by a handful of individuals vs. "the most part" simply ignoring them.

I like new Renderosity.  A lot of other people do, too.  That's why they are here in such numbers.

Flash may be omnipresent, that's true. But I have yet to see any flash that I consider art.. Some clever animations, yes, but not art.

Is Rendo at fault for the amateurish art in the gallery?  Yes and no.  Yes by not having an acceptance policy, no because, well, the gallery is free for all to use.  So, the only way to not have an amateurish gallery is to go through submissions and only allow certain pieces.  And no one on staff gets paid that much to have to go through that, LOL.
Is Rendo at fault for 3D apps besides Poser "feeling welcome and loved"...in so many words...?
No.  1, if every time it was mentioned, Poser didn't start the "Great App Wars", I'm pretty sure most CG sites in general would get along.  But, in any forum, there's gonna be the "my app's better than yours" bullshit posts.  It's childish, and, frankly, wrong.  I've seen work in a lot of different programs, and, frankly, a lot of it, of all genre's, is complete crap.  I want to say "great, you've modelled a coffee cup, textured a funny saying onto the side.  Your lighting is bullshit, and why the hell is it in the desert?"  Or...."Ok, I get it.  It's perfectly find for you to render a horribly-lit naked chick (which are most times horribly modelled or morphed) in an expensive renderer, but if I did it in Poser, it would be rubbish.  I totally get it ! "  most times i'm in galleries....because, frankly, it's not the tool.  It's the user of said tool. 
However, by it's nature and affordability, Poser is popular here.  And, because we live in a society where you can get a "college degree" in 2 years, you can get your burger just the way you want it, and fast, and home PC's start at 2GB of RAM......people want fast and easy.  Is it easier to use stock figures, textures, poses, and lighting?  You betcha.  Easy will attract those who want to know and want to know RIGHT NOW!!!!!  Not those who want to learn, and are willing to take it easy.  Oh, there are a few of those around.  A few.  But, is THAT Rendo's fault?  Nope.  It's up to each of us to decide how big of an @sshole we're going to be when we come to the forums.  It's also up to each of us how we expect to figure out how to use any of these programs.  I look at things this way.  ILM and WETA....they use stock figures, lighting scenarios, textures, and poses to get the job done.  Sure, they make 'em in-house, but they use them over and over.  What they don't do is expect everything to be done for them.  What they do?  Push themselves to the limits.  I'm totally guilty of not doing this most times.  But, really, I think it's a 50/50 as to who's at fault...between the n00bs and the jerks yelling RTFM!!!  n00bs expect everything to be done for them, and the jerks expect everyone (excluding them) to be experts.  Meanwhile, those actually contributing to the community, via tutorials, freestuff, content, and tips....usually feel like they're being pushed out in order for yet another Rendo fight.

I'd hate to lose the amateurs posting. How else can they learn? They need a site like rosity. We all started out as amateurs, and frankly, a lot of us got a lot of help in improving from other people right here. It's one of the greatest strengths of this site.

I've never been thrilled with the poser heavy bias here, but frankly I don't care what program someone uses to make art. It isn't important. Good art is good art. I think people get a false impression of poser here because, being poser heavy, and poser being an affordable and popular program, the percentage of not so good work posted is higher than other programs. It's a fair cop unless you're a software obsessive poseur who thinks any other software is substandard. Me, I've seen some brilliant work done in poser posted here. The kind of stuff I envy. You get out of software, ANY software, what you put in it. I've been known to work on a scene for months. Other people want to do it in hours.

At the moment, I don't have any solid recommendations to make to improve rosity. So I also will not criticise it. I just don't think youy should criticise something unless you can make positive suggestions to improve it or fix it.

:lol:  See, that's exactly what I meant.  I need to find out how everyone else is blessed with the "concise" tool, and I get the "blabber on for hours, and usually get mistaken" tool.  damnit!!

yeah...that was my one and only cat pic :lol: 
Where's Tom when ya need 'im?

:laugh:

Oh man, I love cat pics!

:lol: Ya'll crack me up

Quote - We need like a creative cats gallery or something lol

you mean....that's not what this forum is about?