Bandolin, you want to stick that in the staff suggestion thread in the staff forum?

i can't speak for others, but i don't care if someone doesn't even have a gallery, let alone use poser to render.  it's great to get advice about how to solve a problem, but i think it's much better to have critiques outside of what  people understand as the limitations of the software.  for instance, how many times do people get told to correct v4's high cut shoulder? or make shapes glow appropriately?  or to correct any one of the numerous weak points of poser and poser content?  very infrequently, in my experience.  because we know the limits, i believe we think within them instinctively and unconsciously.  for poser, at least, i feel this means that people outside the community look at poser work, see the same mistakes over and over, and  get the impression all poser work is the same.  that it's the work of the software and not the artist,  and that it all has the same inherent weaknesses.   i'd rather have someone who knows maya tell me what's wrong with a figure's skin, or someone who knows vue tell me my outdoor lighting and leaf materials are off.

not that i'll ever get to post at this rate.  d|s just ate a picture i'd been working on for some time.  i wish it were person so i could give it a nice hard left hook to the body.

I agree with JOELGLAINE that the app is not important. Like I once read "you don't need to be a chicken to know if an egg is good". LOL

Of course, if the one writing the critique doesn't know a tool, he won't be able to make concrete suggestions on which dial to tweak or which setting to change. But the artist will know what to do, if the critique is specific enough.

By the way, I would like to thank all that had the time to check out my last pic. That was VERY useful, specially because that specific pic was of a new "style" for me. I learned a lot today! Much more than I would by just reading the usual "excellent!", "awesome!", "very good!"...

Quote
Rutra - *"if the one writing the critique doesn't know a tool, he won't be able to make concrete suggestions on which dial to tweak or which setting to change"

*This is my point. I'm not talking about artistic critiques. I for one know very well what's wrong with the crap I create artistically speaking. What I have a problem with is solving the problem with the tools I have. I joined this group specifically for the technical issues and how to resolve them.

If I wanted truly artistic input, well I'd join another site dealing with more traditional methods. My wife is an artist and she constantly gnit-picks at my artwork. Particularly about perspective and Poser's appendage joints. Despite the fact that a 3D app is supposed to represent perfect perspective, my wife tells me that even the ancient greeks knew about false perspective. Something to do with the human eye's perception of straight lines over long distances and how they bend and converge. 3D apps don't compensate for this apparently.

I'm not a traditional artist. I depend wholly on the apps ability to interpret this stuff for me. But, I must admit, when it comes to populating scenes with humans, I think we can all agree Poser has it limits.

Ok Karen I'll post my previous in the Staff suggestion box.

actually, that's not quite correct.  a lot of false perspective is just western artistic tradition.  those not exposed to it know it's wrong.  though there's less and less of those people around. i took a course on perception and the visual arts (cognitive science  class) long ago as an elective, and i still remember a lot of the stuff from it.  research regarding perspective and the norms of art were a large part of it.  it was a great class.

if you only want technical feedback, that's cool.  i wasn't trying to speak for you, just myself.    you might just make it  clear in your comments that's the feedback you want.  and if you know what's wrong artistically, i'd personally like to hear from you.

Look it, I'm no intellectual when it comes to art. What I meant by "I know what's wrong with my crap artistically" is that I am aware with most of the deficiencies. I'm not trying to be Michelangelo. I'm just trying to improve.

You sound way ahead of me when it comes to this stuff, so I'm unable to clarify what I wrote. I'm just reiterating what my wife told me the best I can. Hey, she's my wife which means I really wasn't listening to her in the first place.

But, yeah when it comes to the technical, that's what I'm really interested in. If someone critique's me on the inadequate false perspective as a western artisti tradition, I'd have no freakin' idea what the person was talking about.

I get your point though.

I have no objections at all to some one who doesn't work in my app making a critical comment. Because it takes me so long, and so many trys,  to get a render to final stage I tend to get lost in it. A fresh set of eyes is a huge help at that point.. 

An artist's eye is an artist's eye regardless of their medium.

I believe I need some clarification on something...

Does constructive critisim include sarcasm?

mine does now and again...but i mean it in a nice way :D

it's my hope that any criticism will be supportive, friendly and will help improve the image. it's my hope that it will serve to raise the general level of poser renders here. sarcasm can be hurtful and counter-productive IMVHO.

I don't like sarcasm, specially when it comes to sensitive topics like a person's artistic preferences. But remember when you read the words of someone that you do not "read" her/his emotions, so maybe you should give the benefit of the doubt that maybe there was some missinterpretation.

Thank you, thats what I thought. 

I really enjoy being a part of this group and I've gotten so many helpful ideas from everyone but I may not be posting as much anymore due to a rather sarcastic comment left on one of my images. Its really hurtful and has managed to kill quite a bit of my motivation. I will still attempt to comment on new uploads...

One tree doesn't make a forest. Please don't give up. By doing it, you would be making the person behind the sarcasm a "winner".

Quote - Thank you, thats what I thought. 

I really enjoy being a part of this group and I've gotten so many helpful ideas from everyone but I may not be posting as much anymore due to a rather sarcastic comment left on one of my images. Its really hurtful and has managed to kill quite a bit of my motivation. I will still attempt to comment on new uploads...

Do not let anyone make you feel like that. That's giving them power over you,  You have no way to control what people say or do, but you certainly have the power to control how you react to it!

Please PM me your concern in more detail and I'll look into it for you.

This venture is supposed to be about fun and learning and growing and supporting one another.

Anasta
I'm am so sorry!!!! I didn't mean my comment as sarcastic and I'm so sorry to have upset you so!!! I meant to say that sometimes the best images just come to life by themselves!! Please don't quit. I will withdraw from the group instead. I am so sorry I upset you!

Karen can you please take me out of the group. I really didn't mean to hurt Anasta's feelings and I wasn't being sarcastic, but if it upset her it was wrong of me.

Karen,
I think the easiest solution would be to add a Critique catagory in the drop down list when we upload an image. That way all forms of art will be included. What do you think?

count  me in. The best way to grow and learn is from the comments of my peers and superiors

Quote - Anasta
I'm am so sorry!!!! I didn't mean my comment as sarcastic and I'm so sorry to have upset you so!!! I meant to say that sometimes the best images just come to life by themselves!! Please don't quit. I will withdraw from the group instead. I am so sorry I upset you!

Karen can you please take me out of the group. I really didn't mean to hurt Anasta's feelings and I wasn't being sarcastic, but if it upset her it was wrong of me.

Nooooo!!!!!! It wasn't you!!!!! Don't leave!

I don't want to show disrespect to anyone's feelings but - the gallery is public, and some of the comments one gets are not to one's liking.

Nil illigitimi carborundum, or, Don't let the bastards get you down.

I apologize... I'm over it (or at least will be in a few days) 

The image the comment was posted on is fixed as best as I can do.

I just wanted to state that I joined this group for critique on my work, I expect you to point out what is wrong with something. Believe it or not there are things I don't see and i -need- you guys to notice it for me so I can fix it and become a better artist. So if you see something please please please tell me what it is and help me fix it? Don't just say there's an -obvious- problem then walk right past it.

I'm sorry guys for stressing anyone out. I'd blame it on being over-emotional but I really have no excuse.

hugs

I honestly don't think that anyone who is serious about this "group" and purpose behind it would be purposefully malicous with their comments.

Art is a very personal thing and what we create is really part of us because it comes from inside.  So it's hard to step back and see negative comments made about something so personal and sometimes it's hard to not take those comments in a very personal way. Add that to the fact that it's extremely hard to convey our actual thoughts and meanings in writing because of the lack of facial expressions and voice inflections, that it often makes for many a misunderstanding.

The important thing to remember  is that when you see something negative said about an image that it's not personal, it's just an honest opinion/view/thought about what the viewer is seeing.

Not everyone will include a "fix" with their comment. If that happens bring the image here and ask for suggestions on how to get it to work.

This whole thing is a learning process, not only for the person creating the image, but for those making the comments too. Giving criticism in such a way as to not offend or hurt is a true art in itself and some people dance around the issue at hand, others are forthright and blunt, while others provide a balance of both.

Just keep in mind that any comments made will more often than not be given in the spirt that this group was created for....to help each of us learn and grow.

ARTWITHIN gave me this link, so I'm posting it here and I've asked if Karen can edit it into the initial post.

HOW TO GIVE A CRITIQUE

I don't think constructive criticism includes sarcasm at all.

Thank you Acadia, this is really very helpful :D

hmmm.   i'm not seeing any obvious sarcasm in the comments of your last two images, so just in case....  i've never, ever meant anything sarcastically on anyone's image.  i've been nothing but impressed by everyone's work, and the more i like a work (and the more time i have), the more improvements i'll mention.  because i'll stay and i'll look, look, and look again.

i hope everyone stays.  i think we just need to get used to each others' words.  everyone has their own style of speech, and there are some for whom english is a second language. i think we're going to have to be almost as careful with receiving criticism as giving it, or misunderstandings might arise.

Anasta, your work is truly lovely.  i was thoroughly impressed at your "one off" pic. 

I agree with all above, and wish all this thing will stay  like a mean to improve someone's art by right suggestions or remarks. I hope nobody will try to feel superior by hurting someone else by his/her critics.
I don't want to mean this group has to be a big serious thing, because i'd prefer think of a helpful, friendly, and funny (why not?) mean to give other a push in the right direction :)

If anyone wants out, please confirm here or site mail me and I'll remove them.

Trolling comments and those made with the intention to hurt will be removed and dealt with as appropriate. But please make sure you read and re-read crits before assuming someone's intention. If necessary, site mail the commenter and ask them to be more specific, etc. 

I've written an article on critiquing which is to be published on next week's front page, and I've got a follow up on receiving crits which will come out the following week. So watch this space...

coyote255, you're added. 1010, thanks for that suggestion, I'll add it to my mental list ;-)

I'd like to remind everyone, it is just as important to highlight what is good about a piece as to point out what is bad.  I think it would be helpful for everyone to try to include one or more positive comments, particularly if you're going through an image and ticking off a collection of "this is wrong" bullet points.  I certainly try do do that myself when commenting - in fact I always try to close with positive comments.

Yep, I had to take some communication courses when I went to nursing school, and they emphasize that when you have to approach someone about something negative, that you soften the blow by providing positive points first.  This allows the person to see that they aren't a complete failure and that you aren't only seeing the bad things about what they do.  It's also important to not make the person feel like they have to justify themselves by you asking "Why" type questions.

I haven't posted anything new in the gallery since signing up for this, but I would hope that when people are looking at my pictures they are looking at the pictures and not only looking for the bad points of the image, but also the good as well. It's nice to hear confirmation when you get something right :)

Some people of this group had already made comments on an image of me. I have to say their comments made me open the eyes on some wrong things i didn't seen before (and also told me what was good). It will make me more vigilant befor saying "Here it is! My picture is finished!" :)

I'd like to say it's good to have such comments, because everybody has not the same eyes. Some people can see what you didn't, it makes you improve your work, by not staying in the same point of view for each of your pictures. Great thing i think  :)

I just wanted to share this thought with you:

Do you know how to tell if the "critique spirit" is starting to get to you? 
Yesterday, I was driving home from office and there was a beautiful sunset. A real life sunset... And, unconsciously, I found myself thinking: "Hmmm, this is a nice render, good light settings but a bit exagerated on the tone and the clouds don't seem to have enough volume." 

Then I thought that maybe I should take some days off from this 3D stuff... LOL

Hahaha, Rutra! I've often thought very similar things myself!

Quote - I just wanted to share this thought with you:

Do you know how to tell if the "critique spirit" is starting to get to you? 
Yesterday, I was driving home from office and there was a beautiful sunset. A real life sunset... And, unconsciously, I found myself thinking: "Hmmm, this is a nice render, good light settings but a bit exagerated on the tone and the clouds don't seem to have enough volume." 

Then I thought that maybe I should take some days off from this 3D stuff... LOL

It seems to be an addiction that i share with you! lol

Or "that's a Bryce sky :) "

Just a question: when a favourite artist upload an artwork, is it supposed to have an alert or something?

if you've added them to your favourites then you should get an email when they upload a pic....unless you've disabled it

No, i enabled it. So it means nobody listed on my fav artists had upload anything yet :)

well...tell ya what...i'll finish this pic and upload it for ya! :D

Ok! Just waiting for it  ;)

Karen would it be possible to note at the bottom who the new additions are, would make it much easier to add new people.

Also, noted thefixer & thixen are on the list twice.

Thanks

If a person is sarcatic in real life, it very hard for them NOT to be in a critique.  In general it's NOT very helpful to be sarcatic in a critique, especially if the person on the reciving end DOES NOT KNOW YOU!

A little thought about writing a good critique might help everyone. Using a little sarcasm here: You never start a critique with, "Your picture sucks, and here's why..." !  I think we all know why. :lol: Heeehehehehhehehehhehe!

Thanks Anniebel, I've corrected the list and you're right, I'll note new additions going forward.
I think what I'll do is an update once a day, around site midnight. Then everyone can just check back daily.

I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way...

I'm finding the easiest way to deal with the new additions is when I get the notification that someone has favorited me, I click on view their gallery and then add them to my list. I don't want that to come across as tit-for-tat, it was just easier than having to load one browser with my favorites and another with the first post and compare.

Quote -
A little thought about writing a good critique might help everyone. Using a little sarcasm here: You never start a critique with, "Your picture sucks, and here's why..." !  I think we all know why. :lol: Heeehehehehhehehehhehe!

what if the pic was about vampires? then that comment might be entirely appropriate :D

I do like this: I subscribed this thread and so I receive an ebot anytime someone posts something here. If this post is a request to be part of the group, I immediately add this person to my favourite, even before Karen adds the person to the 1st post  (I assume that Karen won't reject anyone...). I found this to be the most practical way to do it.

Initially, to fill up the list, I did have to open two browsers and painfully compare the 1st post with my homepage with favourites... 

Acadia, that link to "How to give critique" is very usefull. Thanks!

I want to thank bantha and pjz99 for the critic in my "Born to Raise Hell" post. Not only for point what is wrong, but also to show how fix it...I always have some problems with lights and shadows, so thanks again...

PEACE!!!!

Just wanted to clarify... Until only a couple weeks ago I was still using P4 and just upgraded to P7 so there are several things I still need to get used to and know how to use... There are so many tiny details that you can adjust in P7 that I haven't even attempted to try yet.

So if y'all could keep that in mind when commenting, I'd really appreciate it... this way I can learn how to better use the newer program.

There are SO MANY different things to set, that affect the finished product, none of can be expert on everything.  I know I'm not! If I ran across some way to fix something I've run into, I'm more than pleased to share it.

Ya know--from one non-expert to another. :lol:

Quote - There are SO MANY different things to set, that affect the finished product, none of can be expert on everything.  I know I'm not! If I ran across some way to fix something I've run into, I'm more than pleased to share it.

Ya know--from one non-expert to another. :lol:

Hehe, thats all I ask for TY! :D

Okay.

I think I wanna do this.  But I don'ts got anything posted yet because my computer had been a very, very, very bad beast, and needed to be reformatted, so now I"m in the process of reinstalling everything.

Just a warning.

I'm a beginner, any image that I do post, is going to, you know, be of less than top quality.

But I do hope that I can grow as an artist from this. 

Thanks!

C.