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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 24 8:11 pm)
Subject: This is SO ANNOYING! - No Bump Maps in Poser 7??!!
Quote - in case this wasn't mentioned above, try plugging it into "gradient bump" instead. change poser file search pref to "deep".
My Poser is set to search "deep", after all it finds the Texture map which is in the SAME folder as the Bump map...??
As for applying to the "gradient channel" - no thanks, have you seen what a Gradient node looks like when rendered in FireFly, if I was to do that then I might as well stick with Poser 4. FireFly rendering requires the Bump Channel and Displacement Channel....which the Displacement Channel does not seem to exhibit this malfunction, yet another indication that the coding is bad, something not written correct on the bump channel portion of the code....however as mentioned I have also seen this a couple times with the main Diffuse Color channel node, but only a couple times thus how I thought at first it was a fluke or bad path....until I began rendering and noticing that all renders looked Flat, especially my grounds, walls, pillars, rocks, and other rough surfaces....
But no, the "Gradient Bump" is not for use in FireFly, that was all brought up wayyyyyy back at the first release of Poser 5 when everyone complained about 'bloching' and all the other illeffects that come from plugging your bump map into the Gradient Channel and then render with the FireFly engine.
My P7 is still on the CD. I know that in P6, once you exceed your memory, a texture (skin, etc) gets dumped off and you cannot reload it until you reboot. Mostly to free up some memory again. I'm guessing! ...but, perhaps "secondary" textures(bumpmaps) get dumped instead in P7 so, to not lose the render..but to free up memory. They said "better mewmory management" in P7 yet, it has to come from somewhere. You need stewer. Do you know him?
Quote - My P7 is still on the CD. I know that in P6, once you exceed your memory, a texture (skin, etc) gets dumped off and you cannot reload it until you reboot. Mostly to free up some memory again. I'm guessing! ...but, perhaps "secondary" textures(bumpmaps) get dumped instead in P7 so, to not lose the render..but to free up memory. They said "better mewmory management" in P7 yet, it has to come from somewhere. You need stewer. Do you know him?
Yes I know stewer and No this is definitely NOT the issue here, the sample you see above is just One small little prop (temple corner from PoserWorld), it is a new scene from a fresh open of Poser I did just for this example to rule out any such issues (and I have done plenty testing first before complaining - read my opening 'note' in first post).
This sample shown here is just a PP2 of only 902k with no external geometry and the total textures only come to 8.7meg
I render Full Scenes of 200~300meg all time....plus, as mentioned multiple times above; Poser 6 has No Issues with these very files and scenes.
Nope, no memory issue, its just plain BAD CODING on the developer's part...oh, and p*ss poor quality control to not have seen such issues....IMO
Quote - Hay dere igo ... 'bout dem bumper mappin' thingies ... it are a "feature" ... dun't cha no?
Sheesh ... an bye da way ... howsa cum it take 3 er 4 times longer ta delete a figger in da P7 as in da P6, huh, huh, huh,
Da NSG wanna no. :blink:
ya, been hearin about all these 'new features' - we been taken advantage of all the broken code in versions past but now their 'fixin' all that bad code so we just have to find other was gettin the job done cuz with the 'fixed' code it don't work no more....or at the least it don't work as well any more.
As for 3 to 4 times longer to delete, I would have to say that has to do with the new Undo coding. haven't tried setting it to '0' and see what happens....? perhaps then it don't take as long to write the backup file incase you want to Undo?
As for the Bump maps not staying loaded....any which way I twist it they don't stay, Another has posted the same black "No Texture" screen shot from his system too, but like you say NSG - its being described as yet another 'feature'.
It the old "Don't Admit, Don't Tell" policy and "If someone raises their hand with a question you can't answer then don't let them know it, just shoot them down with a return question" - same policies that sunk many a corporations in days gone past, people are not as dumb as they look, we were just born that way...
Quote - ...
As for 3 to 4 times longer to delete, I would have to say that has to do with the new Undo coding. haven't tried setting it to '0' and see what happens....? perhaps then it don't take as long to write the backup file incase you want to Undo?
...
If you are sure, that you don't need to 'undo' deleting a figure or prop, you can use shift+delete
to override the undo function.
The item will delete as fast as in earlier versions.
Yesterday's the past, tomorrow's the future, but today is a gift. That's why it's called the present.
Quote - Hay dere igo ... 'bout dem bumper mappin' thingies ... it are a "feature" ... dun't cha no?
Sheesh ... an bye da way ... howsa cum it take 3 er 4 times longer ta delete a figger in da P7 as in da P6, huh, huh, huh,
Da NSG wanna no. :blink:
The figures have developed intelligence and don't want to be deleted. They're kicking and screaming (or even worse when you give them swords) and it takes the program a while to get them out of the way. Luckily, they don't have developed a sense of taste or shame yet...otherwise, say goodbye to NVIATWIAS.
I wonder if you are having some problem with Poser 7 cahing the image maps.
I dont have Poser 7 myself , and I havent seen this problem before in any of the forums, but it seems to me that if Poser caches the image maps on the first render attempt then you might get problems if there isnt enough memory to load them all .
just a thought .
The Gradient_Bump channel is for BUM maps! - just needed to clarify this. (See Page 295 of Poser 6 Reference manual or equivalent in Poser 7 manual - 'twould be nice if the Index actually had "Gradient_Bump" listed (note to ef/cl, you're manual organization and editing sucks!)).
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the
foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg
off.
-- Bjarne
Stroustrup
Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone
Attached Link: how to make bump maps?
I've been plugging away on Bump Maps, since last week(See attached thread)Would you post a screenshot of your whole Material Room, with the scene rendered. With a clear line to the Dissplacement Map.(BTW are you sure you have Use DIssplacement Maps checked). And/or a shot of the UV Map to the Object your trying to apply the bump to?
I hav'nt got it down, to exactly where I want it, but as you will see in this thread, I've got a handle on it anyhow.
About the geometries. If the Geometry file is'nt in the folder the scene is in, or put somewhere in currently active runtime, then Poser will ask you to find it.
Quote - the bump map works for me, although my settings are slightly different than yours. Im still using Poser 7.0 - ive not installed sr1 yet also im on a mac if that makes any difference ?
YEs, any texture map attached to BOTH the Diffuse Channel node and then to the Bump Channel, weather direct connect like yours or via a math node will indeed reload upon re-opening your scene or re-loading the item from the library. But that is not exactly the way the Bump Channel was intended to be worked...but does cut down on file size - BUT, suppose your Bump map does not follow the grey scale conture of your color map? Suppose you are doing a high quality render and what to use the Bump channel for a specially prepaired bump map?
Also I have noticed that a Proceedural bump node will re-load fine too.
As for 'my system not caching' the maps correctly:
Well, it's not a matter of 'caching' them for this does not occure while actively working, it only occurs when the item is saved to the library or to a PZ3 and then later on Re-opened, at that time it should re-load the textures - All of them, Including the Bump Map (and also note: it is ONLY the Bump map that is effected - a "caching" issue should be random, a bad code would effect ONLY the node that is coded poorly ;p kinda like adding 1+1 hu?
Quote - I've been plugging away on Bump Maps, since last week(See attached thread)
Would you post a screenshot of your whole Material Room, with the scene rendered. With a clear line to the Dissplacement Map.(BTW are you sure you have Use DIssplacement Maps checked). And/or a shot of the UV Map to the Object your trying to apply the bump to?
I hav'nt got it down, to exactly where I want it, but as you will see in this thread, I've got a handle on it anyhow.
About the geometries. If the Geometry file is'nt in the folder the scene is in, or put somewhere in currently active runtime, then Poser will ask you to find it.
I covered the Displacement node on purpose as this was taken from an active scene that yes does use Displacements - But lets not confuse the bug, it has NOTHING to do with displacements, that node re-loads correctly just fine. It does NOT matter if a displacement node is attached or not and having Displacement Checked or Un-Checked has NO EFFECT on the bump mapping of your render for DISPLACEMENT is a whole other topic and has No Play in this bug at all.
Not available here but at the CP forum (if they didn't remove it) I posted a side-by-side sample of a prop I had loaded straight from the library and rendered (do NOT enter the Material Room before rendering!) and then, without touching ANY settings I merely entered the Material Room, clicked the Bump Map's name to open the browse window, noted the black "No Texture" thumbnail (even thou the node's preview showed the correct image presumably loaded) then I browsed to the correct folder (which happens to be the Same forlder all the correctly loaded files are in and the SAME folder the PP2 correctly calls for and in the Same syntax as all the other calls) and click 'OK', exited the Material Room, rendered again - NOW the image renders with BUMP mapping.
However it is subtle for the particular prop I used also has a Displacement map pre-attached too, and the Displacement functions PROPERLY, so I took the two renders, flipped the 2nd sample so as to lay the selected corner side by side for comparison and then Enlarged and cropped out the two side by side corners - you can clearely see the 'extra' bump mapping on the second (right side) render {sorry but I have no uploading capability from the network I am currently on so you will have to go to the CP thread to see that}
Here are the steps to see if this happens on your Poser 7:
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Start a new Empty scene
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Load a single prop or clothing item from your library *(at the moment I belive only External Runtimes may be effected, need more time to confirm this)
*3) Go into the Material Room and attach a Bump Map to the Bump Node Channel - NOT pulling it from another node such as Diffuse or Displacement - as matter of fact, do NOT attach a Displacement node for this example at all. Set the value to something high like '1' or at least '.5' for those whose eyes are not particular like mine or not used to knowing what you are looking for (a bump mapped render vs non-bump mapped render). KISS, keep it simple seeing as how my sample appear to be confusing so many - Bump Map ONLY with simple texture at most attached to Diffuse (top) channel - Nothing else fancey
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Now save this item back to your library AND then save the PZ3 as 'SAMPLE.PZ3' and Close out of Poser 7
{note: not Poser 6, not Poser 5, not Poser 4 - they are NOT effected} -
Now launch Poser 7, Open your previously saved 'SAMPLE.PZ3' and do NOT enter the material room - just Render it using the FireFly render image (does not matter if you use RayTrace or not and does NOT matter if you have "displacement" selected or not - we are NOT conserned with 'displacement')
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Now save that render as SAMPLE01
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Now, without closing Poser 7, go into the Material Room and click the name of the file shown on your Bump node, you should end up with a Black thumb on the browse window that says "No Texture", now click browse and load the bump map and render it again.
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Save as SAMPLE02
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Compare these two renders in your paint application; SAMPLE01 should have rendered withOUT bump mapping (but remember, you pre-applied the bump map before you saved the PZ3, it should have reloaded when you opened your PZ3!) but SAMPLE02 should have rendered as intended With the bump mapping applied.
Part II of the test would go like this:
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if Poser 7 is open then Close P7
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Launch Poser 7 and start a new empty scene.
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Go to your library and load up the item we pre-bump mapped in steps #1 ~ #4 above.
DO NOT OPEN THE MATERIAL ROOM!!
*remember, we Already applied our textures earlier! -
Render and save as SAMPLE03
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Now go into the Material Room and follow step #7 above and Render again and save as SAMPLE04
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Compare your two new samples (3&); 3 should have rendered withOUT bump mapping (but it should have rendered With bump mapping!) and 4 should be normal as expected.
ANY Deviation from these steps and you will most likely be coming back and declaring "I don't see the problem" and therefore try it again and FOLLOW directions
now this is NOT stating that Everyone will see the problem...all I know it that it is consistent on me AND that at least two others (moderator at CP included) does come up with the Black "NO TEXTURE" place holder when clicking the texture(bump) map's name to browse for it even thou the Node's place holder shows it is already there.
Now there is the claim that the "No Texture" place holder is the bug and the scene will go ahead and render with proper bump mapping anyway - My tests show otherwise - My tests are step-by-step the way any normal Poser user would handle and render their projects (poking your nose into the Material Room to 'see' the black place holder out of curiosity before the step that tells you to may and WILL cause you not to 'see' the bug being described - FOLLOW DIRECTIONS, the directions are set up to simulate a Normal Work flow and then take you to the problem and resolution.
Quote - at last the method.
thank you. but why did it take you 2 days to post this so others can confirm this bug?
Because:
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I don't come here that often, and thought my original post was pretty clear..
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Because I allowed myself to get baited into needless debate with individuals at two other forums who preferred to argue rather then examine the issue.
The new Poser Community (since EF has taken over) now appears to be "Refuse any notion of a bug and if anyone tries to point one out then attack them with vengeance and show no mercy"....not like it used to be when we used to 'discuss' this stuff and compile our notes and as a Community of Users submit our findings and suggestions to the previous makers - without the 'minions' tainting and deluding the thread(s).
Like a previous issue I tried to explain where you can no longer save Alpha channels in the PSD and TIF format, and even in PNG you MUST now "render over BLACK" (black being the black node) else your background image or node is raised up into the Alpha Channel (which btw renders the Alpha channel useless for all general purposes)
But thats a whole nother issue, now declaired a "Feature" for all past versions of Poser where 'broken' and now EF has fixed it and those of us who have been enjoying the advanced malfunctions of older Poser versions must now work harder or use any other 3D renderer (seeing as how it appears all the other apps out there are still broken...until EF buys them out and 'fixes them too')
lindans & tebop:
yes the material room look almost identical, and just about is.
As for the bump map issue I presented; further investigation on my own (seeing as how the 'community' today prefers to 'dissmiss' rather then 'address") I feel now that what it may be doing is keeping some form of low resolution thumbnail of the targeted bump map and unless you physicaly re-browse for the target each time you open a saved project or re-load from the library the it appears to use this low-resolution version for rendering (ie: as indicated by the "No Image" blank thumbnail when you click browse).
What I did was make a very simple prop and apply ONLY a high resolution bump map with a value of '1', rendered that and saved render with just default lighting. Then saved the project (PZ3) and saved the textured prop to the library.
Then I closed down Poser 7.
Reopened it and loaded the saved project, rendered WITHOUT entering the material room. What I got was a prop rendered indeed with bump mapping, however visually Different then the first original render (note: no render settings or lights or other tweaks made - these two should be Identical!). I saved that as "test2".
Then close the scene (without saving this time) started a new and loaded the previously saved prop (all still with just default lights and settings, and hit render....this time it looks like #2, but shouldn't it look like #1?
Now, I did not close the scene nor Poser, I just went into the material room, browsed for the target bump map so the "no image" place holder went away and now shows the proper map (note, the node DOES show the map, its when you hit "Browse" that P7 tells you there is "No Image" applied to your node). Now when you render this 4th test visually now looks like the 1st one.
now I opened all four in PhotoShop side by side and deffinatly #2,#3 'look' as if they were rendered with a completely different map applied then #1 & #4, IMO it looks like #2/3 where rendered with a very low res bump map applied...lining either 2 or 3 up over 1 or 4 and the bumps don't even align right, some don't even show, yet #1 and #4 look Exact (as does #2 and #3, to each other).
Now I did this with a rather Exagerated texture applied, when I do my 'actual' rendering my maps are not always set so high, and there are usually colored textures applied as well, so this otherwise 'minor' change in my applied mapping and settings could....and has...produced renders that look like I might have not bothered applying any bump map at all, I basically waisted my time in doing so.
To date nobody had come to the same conclusion as I so I can only say 'try it out yourself'. EF tech support finally contacted me on this issue, but again they only appeared to be looking at it the way as others in the forum(s), since I gave the above description (and I sent them the test files and my saved test samples) I have not heard from them since.
So, if Bump mapping is not critical, or if you can do with using anything other then an Image Map for your bump, then all is fine and there is no problem. The only time is if you want fine details in your rendered image using a greyscale image map for a bump map (NOT displacement, that's a whole nother thing and Not effected) then you just need to re-browse every time you re-open a saved scene or load a pre-textured item (CR2 or PP2) from the library. So, if you are used to Poser 4, 5, or 6 and re-open a project you have been working on and hit render thinking "finally, the final render will be done" but then you notice it just dosen't look like you have the 'texturing' as your previous test passes - Re Apply your Bump maps....again
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(first let me state that I have avoided posting here for a long long time now but if things are not said and things are not made known then they just don't seem to get fixed. These days it seems to take 'masses' of people before companies will lift a finger or even acknowledge an issue, even issues that they may already be aware of - "Don't admit, Don't tell" policies and "if nobody notices then don't do anything"....yes, I work tech support and quality control for electronic and software manufacturers)So; on with my rant:
At first I thought this was a fluke but the more I try to use Poser 7 the more I find this is a Consistent BUG, and the more I try to use Poser 7 for creating and rendering my large scenes the more I find Poser 7 is more PAIN then its worth for I have to scrutinize EACH and EVERY texture node for the preview that the appropriate map has loaded LIES!
Oh sure, it shows the thumbnail of the map, it even shows the bump effect remove if you disconnect/re-connect the bump node, BUT if you click the image's name to browse you will find "NO TEXTURE" on a BLACK THUMB?!!!??
(see image for proof I am not insane...well, actually I am but I am NOT blind)
After days of building a scene, testing with low res passes to adjust the lights and tweaking, your finally satisfied so you load it up one more time, crank up the resolution in the render settings and click render...and what do you get? A FLAT RENDER WITH NO BUMP MAPPING!???
Has Poser completely abandoned any form of quality control? Does Poser think that making it 'pretend' to load the image map would fool everyone? Does only blind armatures will buy Poser 7 so no one notices this? Does Poser think we have fun going through a large scene with many props and clothing items each with several bump maps and enjoy having to Manually re-load the maps Each And EVERY Time we open the scene or load an item from the library??
I thought SR1 was supposed to fix Poser 7's poor image handling? At least if Poser 1~6 can't load or find an image it fesses up and admits it instead of falsely declaring it did and let us find out only after a long render session!
And YES, this is consistent, I have tested it under a variety of circumstances; if you use External Runtimes then Do NOT Believe What POSER 7 Tell YOU - It LIES!
And YES, the path stated in the CR2, PP2, and even a PZ2 are indeed CORRECT!
(see image for proof I am not insane...well, actually I am but I am can READ!)
And YES, all textures files are located in the proper folder and path.
And YES, this is consistent with MTx, PZ2, and hand assembled Bump Nodes.
And YES, I have tried to edit files with both the PC, Mac, and the Universal naming conventions:
bumpMap "E:Poser Runtime3TexturesV4-2FantasyClothingwhiterosewr_chokerB.jpg"
bumpMap "E:Poser Runtime3:Textures:V4-2:FantasyClothing:whiterosewr_chokerB.jpg"
bumpMap "Textures:V4-2:Fantasy:Clothing:whiterose:wr_chokerB.jpg"
but on a side note, these same files load just fine in Poser 4, 5, and 6 even when built and saved from Poser 7 and you click through the "This is a newer version but Poser will try to load it anyway" - and the Older versions of Poser load it just Fine!
So much once again for the attempt to 'improve Poser' in Poser 7:
instead we loose our Alpha Channel in PSD and TIF formats and we have to re-texture all our entire scene Every Time we load it!!!
-> back to Poser 6....again
Oh, and as long as I'm at it (again), WHY will Poser 7 NOT use the Geometries folder from my E: drive? It ALWAYS says it can't find any geometries I put there but has no trouble with my External Geometries on the D: drive (local drive where P7 is installed but still external), even if I edit the file to read the Whole Correct Path, P7 just refuses to look there?
Poser 6 don't care where I put things, as long as the CR2, PP2, or HR2 have the correct path P6 finds them - Poser 7 is just DUMBER THEN A DOORNAIL