I have read countless statements of people ripping into Victoria 2, and it is undeserved. I will agree that Vicky 1 has an ugly start up face. But, that is what morphs are for. Vicky 2 has a very lovely start up face. And, Vicky 2 has a ton morphs that you can use to make millions of faces. In fact, It has morphs that allowed me to create a face that I was not able to do with Posette or Vicky 1. Also, I see a lot of people complaining about Daz's policy of not redistributing Vicky 2 CR2 files. I can understand why people are complaining, but look at it from Daz's point of view. With Vicky 1, a person needed the Vicky CR2 file and the Vicky object file. Vicky 2 is just a Vicky 1 CR2 file with new morphs and joint controls. If you were able to redistribute Vicky 2 based file, people would be getting the new Vicky 2 add ons without paying for Vicky 2. That would undermind Daz's investment in Vicky 2. If you want to make characters with Vicky 2 and redistribute them, it is still possible. Make the characters in Vicky 2 as you normally would. Just export any changes to a morph target. Then import the morph to a Vicky 1 character. You are now able to redistribute your new character. This way you are able to you use the new Vicky 2 morphs and Daz's work is not taken.

I completely agree. the Vicky2 face morph that loads on her by default fixes every problem I had with Vicky1. It's a great character jam-packed with great morphs.

One thing that I need to point out though, and you may want to verify this with DAZ, but you cannot distribute a morph target that was created with Vicki2 morphs. You can only distribute custom morphs that you made youself. You could however distribute a pose file (pz2) that contains all the dial settings for the V2 morphs you wish to use.

I have to agree. I finally got the Vicky2 upgrade today and I couldn't be more pleased. I'm absolutely astounded by her amazing versatility. I never expected this much, but she far surpassed my expectations. I have to applaud Daz on this one, for sure! I almost feel like I cheated Daz by only paying $29.95 for her! Cheers to Daz on a marvelous product at an amazing price! :)

Ditto what the others have said, who cares about redistributint the cr2 that isnt why Daz designed her and that isnt why 99% of the people bought her, I bought her because she is terrific and flexible and can be morphed into just about any character you can dream up and her upgrade price was excellent. Sellers will get used to doing it another way if they want to sell products for her and Daz had to do something to protect their character. And I think I must be the only one who opens the character, clicks a pose file, and the settings come out just like they should :)

Think she is great myself and I have a question over to Daz about the morphs etc S

Ok that should say redistributing the cr2, not redistributint, my fingers working faster than my brain :). I had some questions about the morphs too but I totally understand thier position on this.

Well said Willdial, I couldn't agree with you more.

I thought I read in another thread that you could distribute custom morphs created from V2 as long as you "squeezed" the morph so it did not contain the base geometry -- just the changes to the geometry. Can someone from DAZ clarify this issue??

(As I understand it) you can distribute morphs that you made FOR V2 if you squeeze it (and only because DAZ allows this...you would need permission from any model author to distribute morphs for their model this way), however you cannot distribute morphs made FROM V2 (as they would work for anyone who has V1 who hasn't upgraded).

I love Vicki2. I never used Vicki1...made a bunch of morphs for her, though. (Most all of them are in Vicki2). The only problem I have with V2 is doing the eyebrows using some of the custom textures I did for V1. I will figure that out, I hope.) I am so very happy with V2. Made my Mother's Day, dontcha know? As for redistribution...well, I think..if you make a new cr2 file for the new characters, that all is well in copywrite land. Please correct me if I am wrong. Pop...pop...pop!!!

I asked Chad Smith at DAZ about this. The morphs in V2 are not to be distributed, neither as they are, nor as raw material for combination morphs. The only way to share a character which is developed using V2 morphs, is to capture the morph settings in a pose file (PZ2) and provide this. The texture settings can be provided using a PZ2-MAT file. Any morphs that an author develops on their own can be provided by using a morph carrier CR2. Using a complete V1 CR2 to do this only wastes bandwidth and storage space. These morphs will have to be transferred using MM4 or Maconstructor to a V2 CR2 anyway. The V1 CR2 has all the V1 morphs which are also in V2 already. You should use a CR2 that only contains your specific morphs. There will be directions on how to do this, directly. We all have to learn a new way for this. The fortunate thing in this, is that the files will be way smaller than what we use now. Check the "Good morning" thread on the Copyright Forum.

I totally agree... I got V2 today...and she is a Godsend!!!!! I am still working on my first render with her...but anyone who tears into her should contact me because I truly feel she is an amazing GIFT...be grateful people.......be GRATEFUL!!!!

It is good to know that about the redistribution of morph targets of Vicky 2. I am happy for the outpouring of support for Vicky 2.

I love Vicky 2 also. (And I hated Vicky 1 with a passion.)Vicky 2's default face is simply beautiful and the morphs make her incredibly versatile. Thank you, DAZ, for such wonderful work.

It's a bugger for those who bought Vicky 1 JUST before Vicky 2 was announced. An extra $30 - sigh ...

WILDIAL I Was one of the people that posted a comment on it the reason bieng not that i want to make a character but just wanted to point out what you basically said if you take a vicki 2 morph and change it then redistribute it you are basicallys still putting out vicki 2 morphs that is the problem say i take a v2 face morph slightly bend the nose so i can export it and put it in a v1 all somone would have to do is move that morph dial to get the origional v2 morph out of the v1 cr2 that is the issue ! daz is a great company and talented modelers by putting this out maybe ideas will pop up that help them protect their investment i think people are mistaking some of the post as knocing her down and i dont think that is the intent its like you said with hundreds of morphs available i dont see why anyone would waste their money on a v2 based character i think that would be retarded but if daz gets burned by people distributing the morphs in a way that i posted above it will me a big shakedown thats the concern

What you're saying is that Zygote's policies on use of the Victoria 2.0 morphs are different than their policy on previous Zygote morphs? Since morph targets are basically offset values for the original geometry, the process of combining several settings into one redistributable morph offers some protection to third parties in developing new characters. It protects their "secret recipies" so to speak. It's impossible to extract the original morphs from a single combination or "character" morph.

Freakachu, while it's not possible to extract the original morphs from a combined morph, it's still a derivative of someone else's work and not yours. That's cool to do on characters, where you have to own that particular character (and therefor those original morphs). Victoria 2 is unique in that, unlike most other DAZ products, the majority of the value is the unique morphs, and not the .obj. Combinations of her morphs could be used by folks who have V1 and not V2 (and therefor don't own the orignal morph).

I think the PZ2 method makes a lot of sense in general, not just in the case of V2. Now, that being said, let me traipse into the minefield of my ignorance with a question of my own. A lot of great stuff has been done via Mover. Since V2-specific morphs could conceivably go from V1 to the new figure, and some people seem reluctant to change from the CR2 method, would there be some security for Daz in a kind of "public key" method? For instance, the new morph target can't be applied to the "stock" V2 but rather only to one that's be pre-processed with some intermediate morphs only V2 dials can recreate? If the end user can't dial in a couple of pre-arranged values (only available on V2) before applying the new morph, they get distorted garbage. Dunno, personally again I think just using poses is great, but if there's a real issue out there ... Cheers! Mark

Keller sez: "Combinations of her morphs could be used by folks who have V1 and not V2" Thorne has used Zygote's "Woman Morphs" package in creating his fairy characters for over a year. His technique has been to combine the morphs into a final "character" morph, and make them available for download. I'm sure many people have downloaded his characters without owning the original Zygote morphs that the final product is developed from, but there is no way to reverse engineer his morphs or .cr2 files to extract a usable version of any of the original Zygote "Woman Morphs" package. I understand Zygote's policy of not allowing the new .cr2 files to be distributed (which would also be an unweildly mess and a major waste of bandwidth), and to not allow proprietary morphs to be distributed. But given their apparent position in the past, it seems a shame that they've put the brakes on releasing "character morphs" based on the unique settings of a creator.

They haven't put the breaks on releasing character morphs by character creators. As I read it they're saying you can still do that, but ONLY as a PZ2 file. No morphs, no obj, no cr2, just pz2. So character creators can if they want, release character morphs using the pz2 file to save their dial presets. How you lock that down to prevent reverse engineering I don't know, but it looks like the pz2 files are more functional than many thought before. It may be possible therefore to combine dial character sets into a single morph, add that as a pz2, then edit the pose file to strip out all other information, creating a unique character morph pose. But then, who'd "buy" it? Hrrm, the only problem I see is that people won't be able to make money on Vickie2. Not a problem though. Vic1 is still freely distributable as a cr2 so it's not like the character creators are losing out. :)

You are still not seeing it. A PZ2 file just captures the dial settings for joint channels - and pose channels if you enable this. A combination morph is just information - a PZ2 file will provide the same information - IF you have the morphs. You can use V2 to make money. But only from others who also have V2. But at $30, it is almost a steal anyway. The problem with using V2 morphs as part of the mix for a final combination morph is that you had to use the V2 morphs to get what you were after. If you then distribute a unique combination morph with V2 morphs in it, you are allowing someone who does not own V2 to get there also. This is not fair to DAZ. The reason this works with V1 is that only those who own her can use the morphs. There was only one class of user. Now, there are potentially two classes of users. Distributing a combination morph allows those who have not invested in V2 to gain a benefit anyway. By using the PZ2 method, anyone who has V2 can get a duplicate of your intended morph setting with just a click. If you have also used outside morphs, you can combine just those and provide the combination morphs of non V2 morphs (and minus V1 morphs for that matter) but you may not use Traveler's morphs in this way for sale either. (You can use them like V2 morphs though, you just must tell a customer where the morphs are. You must also tell EXACTLY what to name them when they are applied. For a PZ2 file, close don't count.)

Pardon - read: morph channels for pose channels

From what was said, It seems the PZ2 file method for redistirbuting Vicki 2 is a viable way. When you create a new character using Vicki 2, just create a new pose. That will inturn create a new character that will require the Vicki 2 CR2 file. Lets just experiment see what we get, instead of talking about it.

This is just a matter of playing sheepdog. One bunch takes off saying the sky is falling and that V2 can not be used to generate new characters - which is incorrect. Another bunch thinks they can just combine V2 morphs into something slightly different and sell/give them away. Which will get their submissions kicked out of the store or kicked out of free stuff. Some problems are better fixed if they are addressed as soon as they appear. Much less painful that way.

Vicki 2 CAN and will be used to make money for 3rd party developers. What one must do, is simply distribute ones morphs on a carrier cr2 based off Vicki 1 cr2, that Daz is providing now for free to Vicki 2 purchasers, and give good instructions on how to transfer the morphs onto Vicki 2. Daz has not changed it's policy on distributing morphs whole cloth. All they are doing at this time, and understandably so, is attempting to protect their investment in the work they have done for many months in creating Vicki 2. They want all who gain benefit of that product to actually buy it. There are many ways one might distribute custom made characters for Vicki 2. None are as fast and easy as the old ways, but all are workable. So we just all do a little more work. No biggie :) I have written to Chad at Daz on this matter long before Vicki 2 was released even, and he fully supports 3rd party developers being able to develop for Vicki 2, so long as they do it the right way :)

Hi, this is Chad at DAZ Productions: I just got a heads-up on this thread and wanted to take the opportunity to check in. Thanks for the compliments and feedback, everyone. I'm happy to hear that so many of you are happy with your purchase of Victoria 2. (As usual, there's a money-back satisfaction guarantee if you're not.) It seems that the issue that needs to be addressed is not product value and customer satisfaction, however. So on to the subject of distributing Victoria2-derivative files... First off, let me just say that we're in the process of posting this information (what's legal and what's recommended for those wanting to distribute these files) on our website in the F.A.Q. section. It should be available there later today or tomorrow. Also, I'd like to say that we do look forward to artists creating and distributing V2-derivative products. (We will be both creating and brokering some in the near future.) In the meantime, I'll give a quick run-down of some of the possibilities. (Many of these are redundant with what some of you have already mentioned in this thread; thank you for helping to explain these issues.) -Poses (.pz2, .fc2, .hd2) These can be distributed with morph channels included. -Characters and Scenes (.cr2, .pz3) These contain data exclusive to the Victoria2 product itself, and therefore cannot be distributed (with or without modification) any more than they can for other artists' Victoria1-derivative files. -Maps (binary formats) These cannot be distributed if they are derived from DAZ-sold maps either, though templates are freely availabe to use in the creation of third-party maps. Presuming that the map is made "from scratch" it is legal to distribute, though it should not be accompanied by a V2 .cr2 referencing it, of course. (We recommend using MAT Pose files, so that the map will be easy to apply to Victoria 1, 2, or any derivative characters using that model.) -Morphs (.obj, .cr2, etc.) Here's the tricky one, with 3 scenarios: 1) If you're distributing out a strictly V2 morph-combo, then Pose files will work fine. [See Poses, above.] 2) If you're creating out a strictly "from scratch" Victoria morph (that you can create from the freely distributable V2 .cr2 available on our website), then you can either distribute it in a Victoria1-derivative .cr2 file, or as a vertex-only .obj file. The V1 .cr2 file could be used itself by the end user, or transferred to V2 by the end user (especially easy with a utility like MorphManager). The vertex-only .obj file can be applied to either V1 or V2 by the end user, and is easy to create (in MorphSqueeze, MorphMasher, or a text-editor). 3) If you're creating a custom morph target using one or more V2-exclusive morphs as a starting point then there's only one way I can currently think of to legally distribute this. Others may be discovered in the future. You can dial up the morphs you wish to start from, and record which specific morphs you used and at what values. Then create your custom morph as you normally would. Once you have it, apply it to V2 at a value of 1 and then "inverse out" the morph values you used as your starting point. (ie: dial them negatively at the same value that use originally used. Remember that two negatives make a positive.) Then, export the new .obj, which at this point only includes the changes truly original to your morph, and make it a vertex-only .obj file. You can now distribute your hybrid morph as a Pose file accompanied by a squished morph file. When the end-user uses both together they have your character. Hope that helps. Like I said, this type of thing will be covered more thoroughly in the new FAQ section on our site soon. Thanks for the feedback everyone, -Chad Smith DAZ Productions

If you made a new morph for e.g. Victoria 2, what would be the legalities re distributing it as the CR2 channel, like here? Then it could be text edited into the correct place in the doanloader's CR2 file. This example is from my ray-gun model to make it fire.

               targetGeom fire
                        {
                        name fire
                        initValue 0
                        hidden 0
                        forceLimits 4
                        min -100000
                        max 100000
                        trackingScale 5e-005
                        keys
                                {
                                static  0
                                k  0  0
                                }
                        interpStyleLocked 0
                        indexes 17
                        numbDeltas 33
                        deltas 
                                { 
                                d 16 0 0 1 
                                d 17 0 0 1 
                                d 18 0 0 1 
                                d 19 0 0 1 
                                d 20 0 0 1 
                                d 21 0 0 1 
                                d 22 0 0 1 
                                d 23 0 0 1 
                                d 24 0 0 1 
                                d 25 0 0 1 
                                d 26 0 0 1 
                                d 27 0 0 1 
                                d 28 0 0 1 
                                d 29 0 0 1 
                                d 30 0 0 1 
                                d 31 0 0 1 
                                d 32 0 0 1 
                                } 
                        }

Good question, Anthony. This method is approximately equivalent to distributing a vertex-only Obj file. It is useful only to those who already own the model; in the case of Victoria, it would be useful to anyone owning either Victoria 1 or Victoria 2. As such, this method would be subject to distribution under the same conditions as any other vertex-only morph (ie: only for transport of morphs that don't use V2 morphs as a starting point). Thanks. -Chad Smith DAZ Productions

Not that I create characters or even have the skill to begin creating such things, but I would like to take a moment to say thank you very much Chad. Your post has made things much clearer even to a lunkhead like me. Ta muchly.

Anthony, This is exactly what a morph carrier CR2 (HR2/PP2) does. With the additional advantage of allowing MM4 or MaCon to do the cut-n-paste for you. There is one additional advantage to using a carrier instead of a v-only Obj : the latter has all of the vertices and is vulnerable to reverse engineering. The carrier only has the changes, the vertex data is otherwise incomplete. It is not open to reverse engineering. MartinC sure saved our butts on this one for Mac users and Mason deserves the equivalent of an Oscar of Morph Manager.

Thanks for that addition, Jagger. You're right on, as usual. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with everyone the way you do. -Chad

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