randym77 wrote: "What I do like about her is that she does look authentically Asian (which, IMO, none of the DAZ figures has achieved)." How's this? Image by Cris Palomino. http://www.elektralusion.com/download/V4Render01.jpg Coldrake

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but what about scaling?

V4 is a generation ahead of Miki 2 in this respect (although half a generation behind Apollo still).

Coldrake, that's a great Asian morph for V4 you've found! Although it's hard to say if any Asian morph can be truly authentic, given the great variety of nationalities (and respective characteristics) within Asia.

Claw Shrimp.....scaling is implied in my little V:/M: post above. I scalled V4 to match Miki, 91% overall.  She came out beautifully, no troubles at all. I also separately scaled up the head, for which there is a specific dial. There is also a dial for 'length leg." It just took one simple spin to give V the same torso to legs proportions as Miki.

The only thing missing was a neck "length" or taper or scale dial. I think they are "hidden." Does anyone know how to reveal V4's hidden morphs?

V4 rocks in scaling.

There's a freebie here in Free Stuff that'll reveal the hidden scaling options for V4.

I agree, V4 scales wonderfully. This has always been my major gripe with eFrontier figures, and is the major reason for not embracing Miki or Jessi 2.

There is the free posefiles to un-hide dials.

you can also open the V4 cr2 and find the group scales and change ( hidden    1 )  to a ( 0 ).

@operaguy : No dials involved. Just smoothed the fingers with a mag.
I'll send you the mags used. You can spawn morphs from them yourself if you want.

To all others:

Sorry folks, but I won't "bite". No time to refute the usual tired arguments.
I neither mind nor really care what meshes you use.

V4's shape is only a small part of why I think she's useless.
The majority of problems are under the hood.

But her shape amply demonstrates DAZ attitude.
That, like advertising agencys, they think that people are already so disconnected from reality that only photoshopped artificial beauty will sell.

Not even the most stunning natural beauty will suffice these days, everything has to be manipulated and reworked or in other words...turned into a lie.

And I don't like being lied at.

I don't want one of DAZ' "visions" superimposed over MY art.

I worked hard for the last seven years to turn Poser meshes (most DAZ actually, because they MADE the best meshes around) into something that looked like real humans.
Correct proportions, correct shapes, correct bending, correct expressions.

Beautiful humans, yes, but not carricatures or toons.

Funny thing is, if someone today would make a truly ultrarealistic morph of Natalie Portman for example, Poser "artists" would refuse to buy it because the real Natalie is quite short and stocky and has pretty small boobs.

That's so funny. You all want more "photorealism", that's why you spent more money for even more high-rez textures.
But all you REALLY want is more fantasy.
And of course someone posting lots of praise under your latest "ultra-realistic" render, so you can feel like a "pro".

But if you want to be a professional, you have to think and act like one.

There is nothing wrong with artistic freedom or a "hyper-realistic" look.
If you do it consciously.
If you do it at the right place and time.

You want the heroine of your online comic look like one of Manara's girls with extra long legs and tiny weeny nose ?

No problem with that.

But don't try to sell that to me as "reality".
Because it's not.

As any doctor or artist with a basic knowledge of anatomy can easily tell you.
Because people do NOT come in "all shapes and sizes".

BTW, scaling will only get you so far.
If you do it too much, the mesh will look just "puffed up".

Sorry, but no mesh can be such convincingly "fat" like Rikishi, not even Apollo.
Because Rikishi was built to be fat from the get go.

So the old "just scale it" argument won't fly.
Besides, ever tried to match clothing to scaled meshes ?

And that's another, maybe even the biggest problem.
That if Vicky is flawed, 99% of all Poser clothing will be flawed, too.

Sorry folks, but however you try to spin it.
Photorealism is and always will be the holy grail of CGI.

And V4 is not a step towards that direction.

Well, I didn't have a huge problem with any of that, until I got to the bit that said

*Sorry folks, but however you try to spin it.
Photorealism is and always will be the holy grail of CGI.

And V4 is not a step towards that direction.*

So, when they made Shrek, they nearly got it right, but just blew it with that green ogre-thing?   They must be going mad with frustration that they still haven't got it right at the third attempt.

If you are desperate for photorealism, buy a bl**dy camera, for heaven's sake.

(I don't have any problem with the dig at V4.)

Joe, that's a very interesting read! I printed it out to reread it several times.

Thanks!

V4 may be unrealistically proportioned out of the box, but that doesn't mean she can't become something closer to reality with a little effort and patience.

I personally find V4 far more versatile a figure thank Miki 2. Much as I find Apollo far more versatile a figure than the G2 males. Sure, the eFrontier models are great to look at, but there's not nearly the same possibilities for cusomisation as with V4 and Apollo respectivley.

But then again, I've not been using Poser all that long. Perhaps the vets know something I don't. :)

i respectfully disagree with everything Joe said in that post. I think he is wrong. 

Joe, you underestimate and mistake the power of V4 and the extent the scaling and morphing can achieve. As for "fat" or "tiny" (child) not being achievable with V4, I have one word for you, you can search on it if you want....."Carodan."

Meanwhile, I contentedly continue turning V4 and Apollo into all varieties of characters. None of them is barbie, none of them is hollywood.  This image is the beginning of my work on a short-bodied, small breasted asian woman, the foundation for many characters to come of Asian extraction, of all ages, sizes and looks.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - Alexa 1, perhaps, shouldn't be there.   She didn't have quite as much that was unique about her as she should have, which was why the people at 3DCommune went to the considerable effort of creating Alexa 2.

Oh, I have her marked, so I know not to use her in anything but 'for my eyes only' stuff or as a placeholder. Keeping track of such it part of it, after all.... ;)

Gorgeous and realistic proportions OperaGuy!!  Will she be in a pack or a freebie for V4?? 

Quote - As any doctor or artist with a basic knowledge of anatomy can easily tell you.
Because people do NOT come in "all shapes and sizes".

If that's true, then I'd better go get my 20:15 vision checked.  Because I must be seeing things.

The proporions of the perfectly real people in the TV series Little People, Big World are proportioned nothing like the body types of the perfectly real people who are typically found on fashion-show runways.  And yet BOTH body types are "real".  And the individuals involved are all human.  Not from different species.

Yes: people most definitely do come in all shapes and sizes.  It's even possible to find a tall, slender woman with a large chest, à la V4.  Admittedly: it's rare for such proportions to be natural -- but it does happen.

The very rarity of a thing is what tends to make it stand out.  And it's a part of what makes it attractive to so many.  But rarity doesn't make something unreal.  Just rare.

As for the marketing types knowing what sells in terms of what you are calling "a lie" -- those marketing types are the ones who are making the money.  So, I suppose that it's at least possible.......maybe........that those marketing types actually know their business.

However: it's true that there is one thing which reality stubbornly refuses to conform to: and that's theoretical ideology.

V4 is a 3D mesh.  Not an evil icon which needs to be knocked down by self-appointed purists who are out to lecture the rest of us on the errors of our ways -- with much scowling and waggling of fingers.  It's an experience similar to being lectured on the true meaning of life by a jumped-up freshman.

Heh... very nicely said.  Again, each to their own. 

Some like V4 and other DAZ figues and some like Miki and other eF figures and that's just fine!!  

I found this line in particular a bit strange:

"Because people do NOT come in "all shapes and sizes".....

Uh, YEAH they do!! Just look around!  Sheesh!! LOL

Quote - How's this? Image by Cris Palomino. http://www.elektralusion.com/download/V4Render01.jpg Coldrake

Expressionless.  As just about all "ethnic" morphs for Mike and Vicky are.

The "International  Beauties" pack has some very nice Asian faces for V3.  But you're pretty much stuck with the mannequin look, because if you try to give her a smile, her teeth show through her cheeks.  "Blink" produces a very unnatural look indeed.   And a lot of the other expression morphs produce odd lumps and wrinkles.

I don't think this is DAZ's fault.  It's just a natural limitation of the mesh.  You'd probably have the same problem with Miki morphed to look European. 

Wolff, I'd certainly like to contribute certain freebies, but I am SO LAME.....

I cannot figure out how to export out a full body morph! The only way I can seem to do it is to save it to the library, but that does not seem to create a file on the desktop. The Poser manual says it saves them to the PMB, and I have externals turned off, so where it goes I have no clue.

Should I just export the entire V4 as an .obj, then open it up and remove the Daz content? ::: I am so clueless:::

Would you or anyone else be willing to walk me through how to export a morphed V4 (I guess that would be a full body morph, right?) in a standard and legal way? If anyone does take me up on this, please explain in simple, clear (preferably numbered) steps.

::::: Opera :::::

::::: Opera :::::

That is a very nice looking character that you've got going there, opera.

It's quite easy these days, if you have Poser 7, to export a full body morph and then a seperate face morph for V4 but then we need to know what version of Poser YOUR using!!

Poser 7 sr1 on Windows XP Pro  and V4.1

Just a question....I have my custom-made morphs for the V4 underarm crease in place at value 1. If I do a FBM will that morph be 'wrapped in" the FBM?

:: og ::

As long as there is no external infomation the file has to read or if it's YOUR fix and you want to include this as a whole. 

From what I can gather, I have Poser 7 but have not played with it much, you just save the newly morphed character as a Pose file.  You will be asked if you wish to save the body morph dial info or something like that and you say YES and it should save it.  Browse to your Poser Runtime and to the folder that the newly saved files are (png too) zip them up and send them to someone to test drive for you before release to make sure all is working as expected!  You can send a copy to me and I can save that in Studio format so you can offer this to both types of end users.  I'd love a copy!!

All this talk about Character proportions

Phi is what a lot use.

there are a lot of phi sites here is one.

http://goldennumber.net/

There are a few links to Characters at my Atomic-3D

Poser is not the real world,maybe textured but it's still just fancy cartoons.

Real world proportions does not look as good in 3D "Poser C4D etc ",2D "PhotoShop Anime cartoons etc etc" media,Marvel, DC comics measurements just look better.

You do not judge a character buy just there height.

You judge but X,Y, and Z axis.

If you have not made a Character for Poser,Not so sure your qualified to judge a mesh another made for Poser.

It takes a lot of talent to make a Poser Character.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

*" If you have not made a Character for Poser,Not so sure your qualified to judge a mesh another made for Poser.**It takes a lot of talent to make a Poser Character."
*Ain't that the truth.

Quote - V4 is a 3D mesh.  Not an evil icon which needs to be knocked down by self-appointed purists who are out to lecture the rest of us on the errors of our ways -- with much scowling and waggling of fingers.  It's an experience similar to being lectured on the true meaning of life by a jumped-up freshman.

As an artist with a basic knowledge of anatomy (learn the rules before you break them, after all) I cheer seeing the rest of this post. It's just that this part? This part is where I start swaying and holding up the lighter like part of a concert crowd. I mean, seriously. Nothin' for nothin' and way off-topic, but... it's generally accepted by students of mythology and folklore that there never was a grail, and it was the journey that was important because it tended to lead one to challenge oneself and through interesting places and experiences. And yet, the grand fact is that since every one of those people is going to find different elements of those experience more impactful or important than others and take different paths. So, sure, go on grail questing if it rocks your socks, but the people who wander along a different road aren't inherently [i]wrong[/i] when they think something else is a more interesting area to explore. I have a tool for photorealism, after all. It's called a Canon 20D, and it is a lovely thing. Poser serves a much different purpose for me, and I somehow doubt I'm alone in that.

Lol. And here we are again.
A lot of huffin and puffin and the same old boring truisms.

So predictable.

It's amazing how fiercly some people here defend the status quo.

What are you afraid of ?
If DAZ or EF or another party would issue a mesh that if you load it into Poser would look as real as THIS:

http://maxedwin.cgsociety.org/gallery/310257/

or THIS:

http://maxedwin.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Do you think all Poserverse would just collapse ?

Do you think such a mesh, a mesh with CORRECT proportions, CORRECT joints, CORRECT musculature and CORRECT facial structure and expressions would drive people away from Poser ?

Look up FS gallery.
He already did V3 faces that are on par with the examples I've shown.
What we need now is a matching body.
A body that shows the same grade of realism.

And it would be better for everybody if DAZ would issue such a mesh because they get the more support from other merchants than everybody else.

Shrugs.
You can't stop progress.
(Another hollow truism. Are you taking notes, Xeno ?. Lol)

MIKI has perfect realistic proportions and she sold like hotcakes.
So no, realism is neither "bad for buisiness" nor does it hamper "artistic expression".

But hey, it's not my loss. There are already enough excellent meshes out there to modify and improve so that they can meet my standards.

It just would have been nice if V4 had made a lot of those homemade mods unnecessary.
But she's just more "same old, same old", trying to put the wool over the eyes of the community.

Take note Xeno, here comes another truism:
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

:rolleyes:

I notice a very interesting quote on one of the images there. "I made her smile just for fun, but it turned out to be a very difficult process." Are these static or rigged-for-posing meshes you're showing us? Because I'm pretty sure you can get something far more detailed if it's static than if it has to move and look good from all angles in as many combinations as possible. I don't know which they are, which is why I'm asking. There's no question that they're gorgeous, obviously. I'm not seeing extreme poses in those images like those shown for both Miki and Vicki in this thread; there is no means to compare that capability. There's obviously a lot more modeled detail, but no indication of how well that would translate to the level of flexibility that is expected out of a Poser figure. Would it be nice to have a figure that has that level of (adjustable to different body types and ethnicities and so on) detail and poses brilliantly? Well, that's a big 'duh' right there. To treat anything else like rat poison and insist that the only worthy pursuit is "as close to real as possible" is, IMHO, forgetting a lot about art in general as not all art is even approaching realistic. I can be impressed with technical prowess. I can be impressed by imagination and expression. The two don't necessarily both hit at once. I've seen a number of things that make me think, "Wow, that's some really impressive skill with the software!" that aren't great compositions or aren't otherwise interesting to me in any way, for example. "Look at the level of my technical skill" is not a substitute for "here is a compelling expression of my idea". The current tools may be imperfect and improveable, but seriously... they are tools and they can be worked with. What one does with them is substantially more relevant.

Joe you are still saying many wrong things.

Mostly, you keep claiming Miki's body mesh is realistic and perfectly proportioned. Please break your denial: miki's body mesh bears little relationship to a real person. Moreover, as you have shown with your magnet/morph fixes for the boney fingers and inward-curving upper arm, which is only partially successful, she needs repair and alteration just to begin to sort out her body problems.

V4, on the other hand, I was able to morph into the "size proportions" matching Miki's in about 10 minutes, just using the morph dials. Looking at the two of them in that image above of mine....which REALLY looks like a human, and which does not, in your eyes. I am very excited about the results; she looks, poses and moves like a real human being. 

And, once again, if my example of the realism that can be achieved with V4 is not enough, please see the work of carodan, IMO the true genius of morphing and realism in poser.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=201439
and especially this image (both people in the image are V4)
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1342960&member

Daz already has issued the mesh which can deliver realism, no waiting necessary.

As for the CGS images.....remember it stands for GRAPHIC society, not 3DMesh. You are seeing the work of painters and sculptors, not mesh savants. Yes, he credits Max; but he likely just threw up a generic head and shoulders cage in Max in order to have something to work with as he began painting with z-brush.

::::: Opera :::::

RAMWolff, I am going to fool around some more...I had already tried what you suggested without success...and then I'll open a new thread about it later today.

:: og ::

operaguy wrote:
"Please break your denial: miki's body mesh bears little relationship to a real person."

Will you eat another hat if I prove you wrong again ?

No. And you did not prove me wrong above. You provided a partial solution to a serious mesh defect in Miki, that's all. It did not solve all her arm/shoulder/elbow problems.

As for carodan, I've seen his work.
Nice scaling, especially on the Apollo faces, but sorry to say, the bodies are not up to the standards I expect from a realistic Poser mesh.

Who cares? 

NO ONE CARES THAT YOU CAN PUT MIKI NEXT TO A PICTURE and she is the same "size."

It IS TRIVIAL; I made V4 the same "SIZE PROPORTION" as you show above in 10 minutes.

HERE IS WHAT I (we?) CARE ABOUT:
Miki's distorted arms, shoulders, elbows, weird dome head and absurd fingers ARE NOT LIKE ANY HUMAN ON THE PLANET.

And you are totally wrong on the body results of carodan's scaling.

::::: Opera ::::

Umm, operaguy, no need to scream, m'kay ?

"Size" and "shape" are not the same.
You can "scale" V4 all the way you want, you still won't have the proportions right.

Because proportions also include the way a body is shaped.
For example V4 has almost no kneecaps.
So you have to make a morph to add detail to the knees.
Because real humans HAVE kneecaps.
Same with the shoulderblades.
Same with the rest of the body.

Sorry, that's why carodan's work isn't good enough for me to use.
I really would have liked to let someone else do the work for me, but unfortunately my standards are higher.

And you completely miss the bigger picture:
V4's SHAPE is only a small part of why she's the worst Poser mesh ever.
The main problem is that her overcomplicated cr2 makes her a complete nuisance to work with.

If you just spin her dials like you did, everything is OK.
But as soon as you REALLY try to morph her, she brakes apart
at the first instance.
Same if you try to do some more demanding poses.

I gave her all the chances I could because I WANTED  her to work.
I honestly HOPED she would be a great base for a new generation of realistic figures.

But she isn't.

too bad for you, but no loss the the rest of the community

Quote - I'm wondering if anyonewho uses and V4 and Miki 2 can tell me how M2 compares to V4. I'm not talking about clothes, add-ons etc, simply the basic mesh. Bending at joints, quality of armpits, need to use magnets, ...

Also: is it possible to make M2 not look Japanese?

It's an investment of some $50 to start with, and that's too much to experiment.

Please (pretty please) don't start throwing flames. I only want some serious info to know whether that money would be well spent or not.

Thanks.

Miki2 is less supported I suppose, but there are plenty of products available for her. I make alot of my own so I suppose I'm not the ideal person to ask in this regard. Miki 2 bends better in some ways than V4, and V4 in some ways better than Miki 2. I think both have the capacity to be expressive, but Miki2 has better base morphs to facilitate this. It's not too difficult to fix this problem, but is worth mentioning.
The face room is ok, but relies more on the resultant texture, than the shape it produces. To fine tune areas like the epicanthal fold you will need to either create morphs yourself, or purchase them,  it is possible to make Miki2 look caucasian, African-American etc.
It's best to create morphs using the version of Miki2 which doesn't have magnets or FBM's to avoid including them when you spawn a morph, or export the mesh you morphed to to be used with something like Z-Brush
You can choose to use the version of Miki2 that uses magnets or the one which doesn't.  Aesthetically they are really too different to compare fairly. V4 was made to be be turned into many forms, and with Miki2 you get the idea that this was perhaps an afterthought, although definately possible. Each have problems associated with their meshes, but both are worth using.
I hope this answers some of your questions.

Sebastian

Sebastian, it begins to answer some of mine, but with V4.

I am now starting a new thread called "Exporting and sharing/selling FBM" and would appreciate if you (and any others here) please take a look at it; I am going to pose the question there that I would ask you in response to your post.

::::: Opera :::::

Smug, smirking persons on a crusade aren't the types to turn to for advice.  They won't lead the horse to water; they'll attempt to lead the horse to whatever poison well they, themselves are obsessed with.  It's true -- perhaps the horse won't drink because the horse knows something about what's mixed into the proferred water.

Even if certain individuals have a degree of technical know-how: attitude issues can make them utterly impossible to work with.

If someone has some good points on applying morphs, etc......then I'd take those points and leave the rest.  But heed this warning: whatever's good that's in there is polluted by a sneer.  Attempting to learn form such a source will not prove to be an enjoyable experience.  The only time that they'll sound reasonable is when you don't disagree with or contradict them in any way.  Agree with everything that they say -- and then you'll be showing how incredibly intelligent you are.  Disagree: and you'll be worthy of nothing but sneering contempt.

Purists are like that.