Quote - Would a remapped Posette contemplating her foot count for something?
DPH

It is a very nice foot.

Quote - > Quote - Would a remapped Posette contemplating her foot count for something?

DPH

 

It is a very nice foot.

Dave does wonderful work :)

Off-topic or not, I LIKED that mp3, Opera. I play the piano as a hobby, but what you play there is way out my league. Excellent music.

I didn't find Poser to be easy to learn. I could not even figure out how to keep hair from falling off Posette when I posed her and even how to move the people around. I dragged them by the white circle. I'm not good at reading manuals, though.

Excellent ivory tickling, opera.....

Poppi - you forgot to turn on your sarcasm decoder.

What I meant was the opposite of what I said - that is sarcasm. I was taking the other people's position and expanding it until it was ridiculous. My assertion that those who do not write real shaders makes them less manly was based on the ridiculous proposition that I like to write shaders so anyone who doesn't is a noob.

This is based on the expansion of the position I heard over there, which is basically if you don't model your objects yourself, you're a noob.

Of course there are people who don't just slap a texture on, but even if they do, that's not an indictment against their artistry.

In case anyone had other occasions where they did not decode my sarcasm, when i said Operaguy's recording sucked, I meant it was great. When I said he should not have used software to record it, I was being sarcastic - because the point of these tools is to save time and not do things by hand, and to take advantage of the work of others to solve existing problems and build upon those solutions.

Frankly I don't see why they're so keen to model hands over and over again. They should start with the V4 model and then spend the same amount of time improving or varying the hands, instead of starting from scratch.

Wow svdl misunderstood too.

Did all you guys never read me before? Its like nobody ever knows when I'm kidding - ever. I'm constantly making jokes people.

I liked the recording very much. I thought everything about it was excellent. I do not expect anybody to write their own MP3 encoder. Geez.

Sorry Bagginsbill....no way for me to tell that was sarcasm...usually if Im pickin' at someone I have to put a smilie of some sort as I get misunderstood too My usual sarcastic smilie of choice is :tt2:

Quote - In case anyone had other occasions where they did not decode my sarcasm, when i said Operaguy's recording sucked, I meant it was great. When I said he should not have used software to record it, I was being sarcastic - because the point of these tools is to save time and not do things by hand, and to take advantage of the work of others to solve existing problems and build upon those solutions.

Whew, you had me worried there for a second... LOL
I have a BIG problem, I'm tone deaf. (can you fix that? Just kidding) Actually, I think I have a 'tonal dyslexia', I get them all jumbled up and out of order. Can only play a piano reading sheet music, and if I miss a note, I can't tell where to go to fix it, by hearing, I have to compare on sheet music what key I hit, vs. what I was suppsoed to hit. LOL  (ruins the tempo giggle)
I got kicked out of piano lessons because of that.  What a retard!

In bagginsbill's defense :tt2: even if he's being friendly with operaguy, phshaw!  :tt2:, he did say LOL, and he's one of the friendliest most patiend guys here. Of most pleasing countenance (sorry folks, I'm reading Jane Austen at the moment, I just had to try that term on someone)

wow bb, i really thought you were serious. no kidding.

so my apologies!

Not to say though....that you did not touch an issue - intended or not - about compression problems I am having. Well, now that that is solved and hoping you were not offended back, here are two more preludes.

Warning....the third one is tragic and dissonant in parts. It corresponds with the death of the music's 'persona's best friend.

http://jrdonohue.com/thepreludes/prelude2-fd.mp3

edited for bad link. this is the correct one for the third piece:
http://jrdonohue.com/thepreludes/prelude4-fd.mp3
::::: Opera :::::

I'll be sure to use smilies from now on. But even then I've been misunderstood before, despite the presence of the wink symbol ;-) 

Conniekat8 - you made a very funny pun there. (perhaps you didn't even realize it?) A musical "retard" (accent on the second syillable)  is when you slow down the tempo. :thumbupboth:

meh - I like your sense of humour Bb - it's a lot like mine I think (I'm told I'm way too sarcastic for my own good sometimes - usually in an appraisal at work O.O )

Quote - Conniekat8 - you made a very funny pun there. (perhaps you didn't even realize it?) A musical "retard" (accent on the second syillable)  is when you slow down the tempo. :thumbupboth:

ooooh, LOL, I knew about the musical retard, but it didn't make the connection to the pun as I was writing. 
slaps forehead Dang, of all the times I'm actually trying to be funny....

Also I realize now that I should have continued the sarcasm, and written my second point like this:

When I played Rhapsody in Blue, they booed me off the stage because I didn't write it myself and I didn't assemble the piano from hand whittled pieces of wood.

I'm known to use sarcastic humor myself from time to time.  But I have to confess that I wasn't quite certain whether you were serious or not, bagginsbill.  Based upon my reading of previous posts of yours, I was inclined to think that you were joking......but I wasn't 100% sure about that.

For you to make a comment like that and be serious about it.......would have struck me as being out of character for you.

That's alright -- I've been mis-read by others before, too.  It's a hazard of this medium.

BTW - that 'use of smilie' thing...........?  While inserting smilies into a post can sometimes help to convey the intended tone behind a message: I've also seen examples of smilies being thrown like rocks.  So even a smilie doesn't always mean a friendly smile.  It might represent a predator's grin.  :biggrin:

sigh  You can only do your best to be clear -- and deal with misunderstanding when it happens.

Hi Everyone

You know there are traditonal artists that don't think electronic art is art even if you use maya.  So in essence the snobbery goes full circle.

Cheers,
Patorak

Some individuals claim that photography isn't art, either.

And yes: I've seen expressions of the idea that anything CG-related is fake.  Not art at all.  No matter which app was used to produce the image.

SARCASM ALERT:

Painters who don't weave their own canvas, or don't make their own paint from dirt and acetone like Da Vinci did, but shudder BUY paint in a fricking store, are not artists.
 
If I see one more painting using that tired old Sennelier Alizarin Crimson #689 I'm going to puke.

Back when color photographic film first hit the market, it was considered by many to be nothing more than a gimmick.  A passing fad which would quickly fade away -- leaving 'real' photography --which as everyone knows is done strictly in B&W -- to continue on forever.

It was a purist's-style attitude.

Purists are still with us today.  Many of them can be found in the 3D/CG world.  While others are found outside of that world, asserting that CG itself is a fake world.  I suppose that CG can be such........but not in the way that the canvas purists mean.  What the canvas purists fail to realize is that canvas-based art can be every bit as fake as any CG art.  It's just that the canvas-based emptiness is done in a way that can sit in someone's attic, collecting dust many years later.  At least you can hit the 'delete' key for CG-based emptiness.

ROFLOL!  And,  If I see one more traditionalist paint a yellow square on a blue background and call it art,  I'll **** 

Ya know, I saw an image over at Yessy that was actually a red smudge in the middle of a canvas, and it 'supposedly' sold for over $20,000 :scared:

OMG,  Jumpstartme2,  I just blew coffee all over my monitor on that one!  

Hey,  I wonder if anyone has a red smudge prop?

Quote - Wow svdl misunderstood too.

Did all you guys never read me before? Its like nobody ever knows when I'm kidding - ever. I'm constantly making jokes people.

I liked the recording very much. I thought everything about it was excellent. I do not expect anybody to write their own MP3 encoder. Geez.

I understood :)  You said it was beautiful, and I took it at face value that all the rest of that post was sarcasm based on the topic discussion of this thread.

Think that made ya spit coffee..check this one out {red smudge has apparently been taken off :(}

[LINK

](http://www.yessy.com/pihua/gallery.html?i=15453) And to further blow your mind.....{these have all sold/sold out} And I KNOW our artists on Rendo do wayyyyy better work than some of these characters}

LINK

heh..My Dad picked up a Bluthner that made a circuitous route from Postwar Germany. 'Sold' by a German Professor to an American General for 6 cartons of ciggarrettes (no, they're not addictive...;), flown back to the US, and turned up in a recording studio in El Paso. It was made in 1915, sounds great.

I have to make do with a Korg M1 (ancient synth with a sampled piano)...I don't fool anyone..;)

Quote - Of most pleasing countenance (sorry folks, I'm reading Jane Austen at the moment, I just had to try that term on someone)

dphoadley@Conniekat8'That was badly done, Emma, badly done indeed!' ;=)
DPH

Jumpstartme2,  I agree.  That's why it breaks my heart when I see them go over to other CG sites and get disrespected for using Poser.  

Pakled  what's a Blunther?

So if what we make in Poser isn't really art, does that mean I'm not really camping these days because I sleep in my RV instead of my tent? :tt2:

Quote - ROFLOL!  And,  If I see one more traditionalist paint a yellow square on a blue background and call it art,  I'll **** 

Hey now!!! 
Don't be dissin' yellow it's my favorite color!  [says kitty with her tail all pufed up]  ;)
And, and ..... my yellow is nicer then your yellow [stomping feet]

Neil Armstrong wasn't a true explorer because he didn't live off the land when he walked on the moon?  

Lewis and Clark didn't discover the gateway to the west because some Indian chick led them there? :tt2:

Columbus didn't discover America because the indians were already here. :tongue1:

It's all a matter of perspective isn't it?

@bagginsbill .. does it mean there is something wrong with me if I understood from the "get go" your humoristic sarcasms? :D And on the point of applications. I'll use what I'm comfortable working with and what I can get things accomplished with most easily. What's the saying "Work smart, not hard." Why work hard if you can work easy. But then again, I have met those who couldn't do anything easily if they had to. Whatever gets it done for you, works for me. :D And to quote Forrest Gump "That's all I've got to say about that."

Quote - Neil Armstrong wasn't a true explorer because he didn't live off the land when he walked on the moon?  

diet coke spew    
ROTFL That's a good one!

an indian chick? :lol: india is a subcontinent south of the himalayas :lol: ya mean a member of an indigenous tribe of the western hemisphere whose temporary "husband" was un homme franis but speaking of minimalist art (or abstract impressionism), some broad in new yawk has an allegedly fake drip painting by pollock that she bought fer 5 bucks. some bonehead offered her $2 millions for it, but she turned it down - not enuff money :lol:

"Did all you guys never read me before? Its like nobody ever knows when I'm kidding - ever. I'm constantly making jokes people."

heh..you need a few smileys in that post..I totaly misread it & missed the sarcasm :)...keep up the great work with the shaders though,your doing some awesome stuff..
..& I'll stick to my feeble photo based hand painted textures :P

Cheers
Stefan

Quote - Jumpstartme2,  I agree.  That's why it breaks my heart when I see them go over to other CG sites and get disrespected for using Poser.  

Pakled  what's a Blunther?

  I'm not Pakled, but a Bluthner is a German piano brand.

  I know that Apple Studios had one in the late 60's--both "Let It Be" and "The Long and Winding Road" were recorded on a Bluthner, as was the the music for the movie "The Sting".

  I've never played one, but I used to have fairly regular access to a 1906 vintage Steinway.

  (edited to correct the studio where the orignal LIB recording was done).

That's some interesting way to react to Poser or the art created with it's help.
If I look at the 3D app related talking in work there is no looking down to the artists that can only do nice colorful models and animations of products or illustrations for theories while the scientists and engineers have to work many months without much more then a bunch of numbers as a result.
There's some bitching about to creative artists sometimes and some sort of fights over time at  specific computing hardware but that's some work related issue that can't be applied for hobbyists.

Someone who creates a model or scene from scratch and uses photographies for textures has of course more work than someone who loads a model and some texture with a mouseclick.
The important point is that both methods are nothing more than work.
Different amounts of work but nothing artistic so far.
There is no logic behind the statement that placing some points in some virtual space is art.
There is no logic behind the statement that building complex shaders with DarkTree or Poser or whatever is art.
There is no logic behind stating that pressing a button of some camera or pressing some buttons on some musical instruments is art.There is also no logic behind the statement that using some brush with some color on some canvas is art.

Art can only be found in the result of such processes.
A process is not related to art and a process engineer is no artist.
Neither the process of creation, the result nor the interval from before creation to it's end are  necessarily related to art.

Building an highway is work, modeling work, that does not lead to artistic expressions in landscapes.
What some viewer thinks and feels about this highway is relevant to estimate the highway's artistic value. The result can not be absolute.
Mixing worth with work is not rational.

The most likely cause to see one's own work as superior - in whatever way - over the work done by someone else with different tools is the inability to analyze what was done and what is the whole state of the viewed matter. (I don't mean if something is finished; that is never the case with anything. It's the state of the specific matter to the whole)
The amount of work is not a part of the set of art. It can be related to art but it never is a native part of the set. At least in mathematical logic.

The next reason for people mixing up art with work: they fail to see the set and what is part of it. They maybe feel better if they exclude this truth.
It's not nice to realize after maybe two weeks of modeling and shader work that all that is left is a damn single room and still dozens of errors. It alleviates the pain if one can include all the hard work in the resulting artwork.
It could be even worse if this person is a decent modeler that can with some precision depict what real world allows to exist and what nature created before him.
Maybe this person went to great lenghts to gather information about all the details of the object he wants to model. The person traveled to somewhere to take reference pictures, learned the used modeling app somewhat better to realize the wanted attributes and went then to model the object for some long time.
The resulting picture maybe shows nothing more than some rare physical effect. It's not art, but a somewhat precise depiction of reality.
Now a Poser user comes and clicks the library tab to load the figure that was made out before mentioned model and does some fancy renders with it...
And quite some people praise this persons artistic skills for the creative usage of someone's else model and textures...
To make it even worse the original creator get's a single line of credit that many will not even read and many other will have forgotten 5 minutes later.

Now there's another point why some Persons believe their 3D apps make them superior.
The only appreciation they get is that their chosen 3D app doesn't crash or that it doesn't react with error messages on the user's actions. A hobbyist will not get paid for his effort of learning any 3D app or achieving whatever horrible or good results with it. The only useful reciprocal exchange is that of appreciation by the viewers of this persons (art)work.
Now the up-dressers could endanger this source of appreciation that other human viewers are because they get it for much less work and this on less time. And human viewers usually prefer an steady input, like from some Poser user, over that sporadic and hard to estimate input of an serious modeler.

BTW, there's sometimes a similar behaviour between scientists and engineers and scientists and hobbyists. Science aims for precision while engineering can be done solely on approximations as long as the goal will be reached. For the reason of sacrificing precision of real world functionality sometimes a scientist looks down on an engineer. While a scientist often has to study longer and more, it doesn't always enable him to create some device.
But it's also common that for example an chemist tells his chemical engineers what to do or what is OK. Physicists can be even worse due to the broad spectrum they studied about.

I use a Korg A5, but that is my old muti foot peddle for my guitars.  I'm rebuilding a old Steinway upright. Hammers missing and a few keys stick real bad, my guess would be beer, but it is all fixable with time that I find hard to come by these days.

As the original topic. I consider Poser as another tool in my tool kit. I find many of those that knock Poser have never really tried it. A lot of the distain is rumour and hearsay and the elitist sheep that just repeat what other software peers say without question.

Thier lose. I would never pass up a tool that makes my life easier evern if it only does one thing , if it does it well.

I fail to see the point of defending Poser against Max/Maya. They simply don't compare..... funny thing around here is we all stand in awe when DAZ or anyone else creates a new figure for us to use. Did they use Poser to create the figure? No, they used Max or Maya or perhaps lightwave to do so. The people using Max or Maya have every reason to look down on Poser if they want to do so. To them Poser is a mere toy. Dressing Vicky in Poser or creating 'vicky' from scratch in Max/Maya is a whole different thing.

The only reason some around here get offended is because they just refuse to see what they are..... grown ups (some still kids perhaps) playing with a digital Barbie and Ken. That's all we are people.... Poser compared to Max/Maya is only a toy, but a cool toy.

Why should they stand on awe of a render created with Poser knowing how it was made? A good number of those people creates figures from scratch (try doing that with Poser) and yet we want their respect when we merely dressed a puppet we didn;t even create ourselves.

Get real..... those people have every right to look down on Poser, the true snobs and elitist are found around here.... Poser users wanting to be on the same pedestal as Max/Maya users, trying to be something they're not and never will be. Get real, know your place, you're just using a toy that will never earn the respect of a real 3D artist.

As for art...... click a few buttons and call it art.... any fool can do it. That's not art. Sad to see that you people all get worked up about something you're not.

For me Poser is a tool that gets me from A to B quickly. I'm a Cinema4D users also, creating my own models. Working with Poser and working with Cinema4D is something else, it just doesn't compare. With Cinema4D my imagination and skill is the limit.... with Poser whatever I can buy is the limit. I don't need skill to use Poser, I do need skill to use Cinema4D. Anyone can use Poser and create something good with it. If you've got enough money to spare you can do cool stuff with Poser, even if you're not an artist or lack skills. Try that with Cinema4D, it won't work.

Last remark...... as far as I'm concerned you can defend Poser all you want, but once those people look at the Poser galleries here, they most likely roll around in laughter. I as a Poser users still do. To them all that Poser is good for, when looking at the galleries, is to satisfy your sexual/sensual obsessions. And mos tof it is done pretty bad also. As long as the galleries around here are full of the badly composed created in 5 minutes nviatwas renders, how will Poser ever earn a good name? When I first looked at the Poser galleries, I seriously wondered if anything good could be created with Poser. Poser is used to create so much garbage that it's no wonder it has such a bad name. I a Max/Maya users looks at the galleries here, he's most likely to see junk as far as he/she's concerned. Badly put together images, the same figures over and over again. Total lack of imagination, skill and expertise. I don't blaim them they think Poser is a toy, 90% of the galleries sure give that impression.

'Working with Poser and working with Cinema4D is something else, it just doesn't compare. With Cinema4D my imagination and skill is the limit.... with Poser whatever I can buy is the limit. I don't need skill to use Poser, I do need skill to use Cinema4D.'

d**phoadley@aeilkema
**I think that you are confusing Craft for Art.  There is a difference  Cabinet Making is a skill, but Photography is an Art.
DPH

Wasn't reffering to art there :-)

Yes, but the rest of us are.
DPH

Sorry but that's a bit pathetic..... pick out a little bit of what I've said and claiming I'm not talking about art also and disregarding the rest I've said. That particular part wasn't refering to art and not everything being said in this thread was refering to art either and you didn't comment in your a childish way on those statements at all.

You're talking about craftmanship, pure and simple.  I grew up in a boatyard in Florida, I 've done carpentry in my time, and I've scraped and painted bottoms.  I was hard work, but I wouldn't call it art   For a time, I was independantly employrd as a silversmith and jeweller.  I made some pretty nifty stuff in both silve and gold, sawing, shaping, sodering, and polishing, -but while I think I was a moderately skilled craftsman, I wouldn't call that artwork either.

I just finished remapping PosetteV3 and am in the process of remapping Dork, the P4 Catrsuit, and V4.1.  Again, I would call any of this art, Craftmanship yes, but not art.  On the other hand, I worked for two hours, at least in composing, posing, and rendering the 'Nude Erasian Contemplating Her Foot, ' that I priorly posted here in this thread (Plus another Hour and a half of postwork).  That I DO consider art, and not just because of the time and effort I put inot it.
DPH

:lol:
Seriously, what attitude would that be? That's far beyond ignorance already.
Is Posering the 8th deadly sin?

I can use Max / Maya / XSI somehow but don't look down on the users of these apps just because they can't code their apps, dunno much (if anything) about semiconductor physics (to understand their computers) and can not express themselves as fluently in math as in graphics.
I can also use Poser somehow but can't find the logic behind some valuing of one app over another.

For an hobbyist it's about the fun in the first. For an professional it's about productivity and possibilities with certain applications.That application A does not allow for x,y,z while app B does does not make B better if the goal Z can be reached with both apps. Z is to have fun.
That the overly professional Maya artist that was born with a Wacom have no idea what is involved in constructing the aircraft which he just designed does not degrade the application nor the artist.

Many Poser pictures are done out of fun, not to be memorized as a stage of human evolution.
Max / Maya is used a lot in advertising, does this contribute to it's possibilities to create art or does this elevate the few specialists of these apps over any other human?
Will they be granted a place next to the feet of those who invented and refined the computer for their ability to use a tiny part of this kind of machine's capabilities?

Oh, and must I look down on those who use Windows and windows based apps (like Max)?
Or do I have to visit CG forums about Max / Maya art and tear the pictures and their creators apart for violating nature laws and not sticking to long known facts.

Guess I go now watching some of nature's unique creations again. - Including boobs.
At least it builds from scratch with single atoms and never the same creation twice.
Odd, that nature doesn't look down on me for all my shitty low learning speed, scientific approximations, assumptions, lack of understanding and need to see a nviatwas from time to time. And for using Windows to run ... cough ... Poser...

Dave, you are so right! What you do is real art and so much work! You are from Florida?? 

Quote - Dave, you are so right! What you do is real art and so much work! You are from Florida?? 

Originally yes.  I was born in a small town overlooking the Gulf of Mexico, on Florida's west coast, named Englewood.  It's somewhere between Sarasota and Tampa (if I remember right).  But I grew up in Daytona Beach on Florida's east coast.
Just three weeks before my 20th birthday, following my Zionist inclinations, I immigrated to Israel, converted to Orthodox Judaism, and have lived here ever since.
David P. Hoadley

Hmmm - tools of the trade eh ?

One of my hobbies is Calligraphy.  Now when you are scribing, you have a very wide choice of implements, some you have to make yourself (quills for e.g - you cut your own, or bamboo) so does that make something created with one of those pens somehow "better" than one created with a premade metal nib ? Should I look down on people who use metal nibs exclusively because they haven't hammered it out of sheet, shaped and gilded it ?

All in all, the Big Question is always the same:

What Is Art? Visual Art in particular?

and for me... just for me... just an Humble Personal Opinion.... Art is when I look at a picture... and my jaw drops down and my eyes fill with tears of joy.

How was the picture made? With Poser? With a pencil? With Maya? With a photocamera? I don't care. It brings joy and awe to me, so it's Art.

Everything else are technical details.

Giorgio

Note: My specific objection was the following:

a veteran 3DBuzz person dissed the Poser tools. He was trying to disparage VRay over (his favorite) MentalRay by insinuating VRay was "poser-like" since all you did was push a button and the render popped out.

I specifically elucidated the complex tools we now have in Poser7 only for the purpose of disabusing the person of the notion that Poser was a toy with only one button.

By the way, several of the 3DBuzz people correctly understood. While they still probably feel the entire Poser universe is beneath them, at least they now know Poser "needs to be tweaked" in order to achieve something advanced. I showcased and advanced render to illustrate this.

::::: Opera :::::