Quote - I've never quite grasped why things always have to be defined in terms of an either / or choice. Like you can ONLY have C4D -- or you can ONLY have Lightwave. I'm sure that C4D with Transposer is the hot setup. So's Lightwave.

I choose to take the optimistic view of things: so this new edition of Poser will probably work well with both apps.

Actually, it is C4D with IPP that's the hot set-up. ;) And Maxon doesn't nickel 'n dime you to death, they offer a buffet. BodyPaint is now part of the Cinema core, Hair if you like, MoGraph if you need it, Sketch 'n Toon if that's your style.. An admittedly pricey buffet, but the dishes are sweet. It's either/or for those like me, who don't make a living doing this, and can't afford more than one big-ticket platform. Another problem is the learning curve. Trying to tackle more than one of these programs at a time can be a stretch. I wouldn't mind Max on my machine, though.. if I ever win the lottery. ;)

Quote - Actually, it's C4D with IPP that's the hot set-up. ;)

Please see my semi-X-post just above yours. 

I have no doubts that C4D offers a buffet.  As I've indicated -- I'm looking it over for purchase.  So I'm not an anti-C4D type (assuming such types exist).  However: I sense a jab or two at LW coming from other sources -- so I'm responding to that.

Don't miss the point of my saying that Cinema users are nickel & dimed to death.  For the literally-minded: I don't actually think that Maxon nickel & dimes their customers.  Because that particular charge is no more legitimate when it's leveled against Maxon than it is when its leveled against e-frontier.

Also, I will point out once again that C4D is considerably more of an investment than Poser is.  Goes with the territory.  So you definitely aren't being "nickel & dimed" -- it......uh......goes well past that.  But it's no doubt worth it.  :biggrin:

Quote - tsk tsk tsk -- such pessimism on display.

It's not pessimism, it's realism.  Spend some time trying to rework Poser materials setups in a different (usually more powerful) app.  There are many situations that simply do not have a 1:1 equivalent and cannot be duplicated at all, whether by automation or by hand.  I remain skeptical as well about how well rigging will export from Poser into other apps.

Looks to me like the significant changes here are content export (which I've already wasted huge amounts of money on, would have been nice if that junk had been built into Poser 7) and "64-bit rendering" - simply a memory management improvement as far as I can see, no major feature being added there.  Maybe they'll do a less bone-headed division of labor for multi-threaded rendering too, we'll see.

Xenophonz there's about a dozen bubbly posts from you defending EF.  They're big kids now, they don't need a champion.

Quote - Xenophonz there's about a dozen bubbly posts from you defending EF.  They're big kids now, they don't need a champion.

You're right about that much.  They don't -- but I have no intentions of refusing to express my own opinions on the subject at hand for that reason.  If some choose to slam e-frontier, then it's equally legitimate for others to answer.

No -- they don't need a champion.  But neither do they 'need' a lynch mob.

Quote - I remain skeptical as well about how well rigging will export from Poser into other apps. 

That's healthy.  We'll see what we see when we see it.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - How this is different from OBJ I'm not sure.

 

OBJ is just geometry.  When properly implemented, COLLADA can also include lighting, rigging, morphs, shaders, keyframes ....

That makes no sense from a business point of view. If I lock you into my file type than you cannot leave and you have to buy my product.

Google COLLADA and read the faqs.

Quote - > Quote - tsk tsk tsk -- such pessimism on display.

It's not pessimism, it's realism.  Spend some time trying to rework Poser materials setups in a different (usually more powerful) app.  There are many situations that simply do not have a 1:1 equivalent and cannot be duplicated at all, whether by automation or by hand.  I remain skeptical as well about how well rigging will export from Poser into other apps.

Looks to me like the significant changes here are content export (which I've already wasted huge amounts of money on, would have been nice if that junk had been built into Poser 7) and "64-bit rendering" - simply a memory management improvement as far as I can see, no major feature being added there.  Maybe they'll do a less bone-headed division of labor for multi-threaded rendering too, we'll see.

Guess you missed the announcement of network rendering....

Collada not pina colada right...LOL!  Wait hear that sound???  whip thunk* whip*thunk awww poor dead horse. To quote a very rugged and experienced senior chief when I was in Coronado, Calf,  " We shall see what we shall see" and I think this is one of those we shall see things.

I agree there are opinions and then there is...well we shall see what we shall see...LOL! At least let ef get the damn program out then let the lynching, stoning, hooking em up to a metal boxspring with a car battery or whatever your favorite method you prefer, commence ROTHFLAMO!

You gotta admit it's intersting.

UM anyone downloaded the Collada Plugin? I did, installed it, and now P7 doesnt run.? Raj I did, and my P7 is broken now too. I'm hoping that the latest upgrade will fix things.

RajDArge
i was just about to download that exporter and try it; has your situation cleared up or is Poser7 actually dead with it installed?

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - Guess you missed the announcement of network rendering....

Since Poser's renderer is frankly in the "very poor" category, I don't have any interest in stapling network rendering on top of that.   Will the boneheaded division of labor for multi-threaded rendering be distributed across many nodes, so you can waste 3/4 of your CPU power on multiple boxes at the same time?  Super!

Will you get occasional inexplicable crashes when Smooth Polygons is enabled on multiple render servers?  Whee, fabulous!

Grid-like artifacts in AO shading on flat surfaces distributed across a render farm?  Woo, I'm so excited! http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2697196 

People don't generally stick with Poser because it's a great renderer, they use it because it's a cheap alternative and there's a lot of easy-to-use cheap content.  Raising the price tag without really improving the renderer's quality doesn't excite me.  Any supposed speed improvement by spreading the work across multiple servers is also going to be countered by the cost of the extra render servers, and the cost of buying the "Pro" version of poser.

By the way any folks who already own and use P7, you can take it for granted you will be getting low priority support for the next year or two, while the business is focused on delivering and supporting this new Pro version.

Consider this:
Some peeps [like me] are what I would call "semi pro" where we do some commercial work but most of what we do is for fun and we can't actually afford the high end apps like Maya, C4D etc. etc.

Now I also have a 64 bit machine [or will have by the weekend, LOL] and have been a Poser user/supporte for a number of years!

Now I can "ONLY" have 64 bit support if I fork out yet more cash for this new Poser app, most of which I can't use due to not having the high end apps.

So Posers customer base which is largely the hobbyist IMO and has backed them through good and bad are now being well and truly left out in the cold!

If ratscloset is still around or anyone from EF, I'd be interested to hear your views on that!!

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - How this is different from OBJ I'm not sure.

 

OBJ is just geometry.  When properly implemented, COLLADA can also include lighting, rigging, morphs, shaders, keyframes ....

That makes no sense from a business point of view. If I lock you into my file type than you cannot leave and you have to buy my product.

Google COLLADA and read the faqs.

Don't get me wrong. It's a wonderful idea. It just goes counter to the business model I've seen in other software venues, of locking you into a product and never letting you leave without lots of pain.

Quote - > Quote -

I have no doubts that C4D offers a buffet.  As I've indicated -- I'm looking it over for purchase.  So I'm not an anti-C4D type (assuming such types exist).  However: I sense a jab or two at LW coming from other sources -- so I'm responding to that.

:

Who is jabbing at Lightwave??
I used to be a Lightwave and C4D user user but stopped at  LW7.5
and committed to Cinema4D.

Its Not Newteks fault or issue if third party poser plugins do or dont deliver full integration.

But the terms" Hosting" and "Playback" are the same language that was used by
curious labs and Riess studio.
But frankly if you are a LW user this new propack will offer you this hosting  option
you didnt have before. Cool!!

but  in the meantime LW users  might want to consider spending  $69 USD
for the DAZ FBX plugin (Sale price) and using the FREE Daz studio as a gateway
app to get poser figures into lightwave as COMPLETE independent native Lightwave rigs that would be fully interactive  with Lightwave cloth dynamics etc.
at any rate more  choices  are a good thing.

Ooo, speakin of Reiss Studio, they still never refunded my $180.  :cursing:

poser 7 dies eah time you install that collada export plugin for it. I had to uninstall P7 and reinstall it and the service pack to get it running again. I have left a message at efrontier for support but have yet to recieve a reply.
I find out that Daz Studio has a Collada Exporter already. But the import into max doesnt seem to want to work. I can see the boned mesh in Deep Exploration, but max refuses to import it.
:(
Raj

I should add that I dont understand this attitude of some that this new propack
harms us "little guys" (hobbyists)

How??? if one assumes you needs nothing from this new version
than how come you are harmed by its existence

Just use your current seat of P6-P7 etc as you have been thus far

"they are going to focus support on propack and leave us non pros in the lurch"

How does one conclude this???

this is what continues to amaze me about many poser "consumers"
we buy TANGIBLE GOODS like automobiles with certain features( AC/AM/FM radio etc) and drive them for YEARS even Decades knowing full well the manufacture
is constantly releasing newer MORE EXPENSIVE models  with more "pro features"
(antilock brakes,satelite radio/navigation ,MP3 DVD etc.)

You buy a piece of software or poser model and DAZ. ,EF or whomever
release a new version and you behave as though you been somehow "betrayed"

WHY???
because there going to be exciting cool stuff and forum discussion about the new version and im stuck using my old V3 and her 62 gigs worth of content??

@pjz99 I do agree that anyone using any of the high end apps mentioned
likely does not care about rendering in firefly networked or otherwise.
 

I find this hysterical,with p7 basically being a p6 redo, p6 being a glorified p5, do you honestly think this version is gonna be any better? All these guys want is your money and they KNOW so many poser addicts will jump     GOOD LUCK 

Lilly Tomlin contends that man developed language because of his deep-seated need to complain ;-)    Seriously, tho, I've curse EF as much as anyone, but more for what they haven't done than what they have, namely the lack of integration with other apps. What's really happening, I think, is less that Poser is trying to become a high-end program and dump the hobbyists, so much as it's that these cheaper programs  that do one thing very well are now getting powerful enough to be useful on a higher level--Vue is still a couple hundred bucks, but was used by ILM on a mega-million dollar movie ("Pirates of the Carribean"); zBrush is still about $300 and was used in "Lord of the Rings"; Poser seems to finally be following suit and integrating with the higher programs, and I think everyone will benefit--not least EF, who I think will be smacking themselves on the heads a year from now and wondering why they didn't do this sooner.

Quote - perhaps it means that "poser 8 standard edition" will still allow default users to render giant-boobed zombies with nostril-glow.

-and a slightly cross-eyed stare ;) I'm curious as to why there wasn't a 64-bit render engine for us Mac-heads back in P6 (The G5's can certainly do it...) > Quote - I'm looking forward to this one. Who knows? Perhaps Poser will even get some respect..........

I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Abandon joints for rigging, chuck out that slow-as-molasses dynamic cloth thingy, and put in some faster collision detection (you can do it near-real-time in OpenGL), fix the eternally busted wind-effects thingy on both dynamic cloth and hair, and fix the materials so that they export worth a damn... ...then we'll talk about respect among the pro crowd. ;) > Quote - People don't generally stick with Poser because it's a great renderer, they use it because it's a cheap alternative and there's a lot of easy-to-use cheap content.

If I may correct, they use it because it (was) a cheap [i]compositor[/i] with a lot of cheap content. But otherwise I agree with you perfectly. Meh - I'll see what comes of it. I still haven't bothered w/ getting Poser 7 yet... haven't seen any need to. /P

Quote - People don't generally stick with Poser because it's a great renderer,

IMO, that's the main -- and the most legitimate -- criticism of Poser.  Poser's renderer definitely has its limitations.  However: the "cheap" aspect of Poser has never bothered me in the way that it seems to bother some.  For whatever reason, there appears to be an attitude floating around which says that "if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage".  As has already been mentioned -- both ZBrush and Vue aren't super-expensive apps: but they are both excellent apps.

I'm not saying that this reflects your attitude -- I don't really know you.  But the mere fact that something costs less doesn't automatically mean that it's worthless.  Or even that it's necessarily "less than".

Quote - By the way any folks who already own and use P7, you can take it for granted you will be getting low priority support for the next year or two, while the business is focused on delivering and supporting this new Pro version.

Well.......I'm not going to make that assumption.  E-frontier has presumably been working on this new version of Poser for some time now.  They've still managed to turn out some SR's for P7 in the meantime.  We might see more of them.  To me, this fact is evidence that P7 users have most definitely not been "abandoned".

And, no -- I don't view the release of a "pro" version of Poser as an indication that e-frontier is abandoning its hobbyist base.  Ya know, I just don't understand why great news is always twisted to make it into bad news..................but that's the way of things in the Poserverse.

Quote - ...For whatever reason, there appears to be an attitude floating around which says that "if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage"....

Where does that come from?
All I've ever seen is that a good app that is inexpensive is a good bargain. There's a couple of them around, even some freebies.

Quote - Where does that come from?

Oh.....I've seen it.  While it's rarely -- if ever -- stated quite so blantantly: it's fairly obvious that it's a type of snobbery which is often found lurking under the surface of an occasional off-handed comment.  And not just in these forums -- many of the anti-Poser remarks that one sees in high-end forums fall into this same category.  "It didn't cost much, so it can't be worth much, either."

It's a line of thinking similar to judging the value of a work of art based upon the amount of time that it took to make it.  I.E. -- an 8-hour render is inherently better than a 1-hour render.  Not necessarily -- but hey, it cost more -- so it follows that it's got to be worth more.  To follow the logic: a 12-hour render is better than an 8-hour render........and so forth.

I suppose that the best 3D app in the world is the most expensive one.  Which is a possiblity -- but I wouldn't just automatically assume that it's true.

The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.
Architecture?...Industrial Design?...Game Design?...Real-Time?
You can't blame someone working in industry that has no use for Poser for not using Poser!!!
You also can't blame an animation studio working with multi-million dollar budgets under intense pressure from wanting to use the best tool they can get their hands on.
That isn't elitism, it is reality, and common sense.

You might as well go ahead and try to explain that rendertime nonsense you are talking about too. I have never, ever, EVER seen anybody anywhere at anytime say that 'slower is better' in any area of 3d graphics; or any time (=money) based operation for that matter.

Quote - > Quote - ...For whatever reason, there appears to be an attitude floating around which says that "if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage"....

Where does that come from?
All I've ever seen is that a good app that is inexpensive is a good bargain. There's a couple of them around, even some freebies.

Agreed. Blender is a pro-level app (and yes, is often used as such), but you can get it (and its source code!) for free. Gratis. $0.00.

Quote - The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.

Actually, the former ain't really it (Have you seen 3DS' license software dongle mess? Blecch).

The latter however is true. Workflow gets pretty convoluted once you take into account the joint-to-skeleton path you must take, the "oh, crap - NOW what's missing!?" materials import handling, and the fact that morphs don't often make it out of Poser alive. 

It can be done, but it ain't easy.

Also, agreed on the render-time aspect. Faster calc-time is better, and I don't care who you are - hobbyist or pro.

/P

Quote - The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.
Architecture?...Industrial Design?...Game Design?...Real-Time?
You can't blame someone working in industry that has no use for Poser for not using Poser!!!
You also can't blame an animation studio working with multi-million dollar budgets under intense pressure from wanting to use the best tool they can get their hands on.
That isn't elitism, it is reality, and common sense.

?

What on earth are you talking about?  WHERE did I say that those "with no use for Poser should use Poser"?  Nor did I insist that "animation studios with multi-million dollar budgets" should use Poser.  Talk about your straw man arguments......... :rolleyes:

You appear to be completely missing my point here -- my comments weren't referring to technicalities -- they were referring to attitudes.

So.....Maya is "better" than Poser?  Yes......but the mere fact of "inexpensiveness" doesn't mean that something is as worthless as some claim.  And, yes -- I have seen such attitudes come across. 

Quote - You might as well go ahead and try to explain that rendertime nonsense you are talking about too. I have never, ever, EVER seen anybody anywhere at anytime say that 'slower is better' in any area of 3d graphics; or any time (=money) based operation for that matter.

You might as well go ahead and explain your nonsense over whatever it is that you are talking about here.  Once again: I was referring to attitudes.  However, there's a danger in communicating subtlety in the forums.  Such matters sometimes manage to totally escape the notice of the literally-minded.

Yes -- I've seen such attitudes on display.  Perhaps you don't notice them: but that wouldn't be surprising.

Quote - The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.

Once again: I believe that we are just slightly missing the point here.  These matters are exactly what this new version of Poser is intended to address.  Whether or not it succeeds at that task remains to be seen -- but personally, I'm heartened by the fact that e-frontier is aiming in that direction.

Quote - ..."if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage".  As has already been mentioned -- both ZBrush and Vue aren't super-expensive apps: but they are both excellent apps.

I'm not saying that this reflects your attitude -- I don't really know you.  But the mere fact that something costs less doesn't automatically mean that it's worthless.  Or even that it's necessarily "less than".

I was using "cheap" in the positive sense - and pointing out that EF is positioning "Pro" to go to a not-cheap model.  From reading the press release, I didn't get the impression the price is going to go DOWN, and the a la carte model they're switching to, seeing how successful it is for other companies like Maxon and Autodesk - I think it is very likely they're moving away from cheap.  How much money are you willing to pay for the same basic render capabilities that you already own?

Quote - Well.......I'm not going to make that assumption.  E-frontier has presumably been working on this new version of Poser for some time now.  They've still managed to turn out some SR's for P7 in the meantime.  We might see more of them.  To me, this fact is evidence that P7 users have most definitely not been "abandoned".

Look, you can't have it both ways - either: 
a) Pro will be a cool, valuable app packed with robust new function, in which case, unless they immediately hire a bunch of people and instantly get them trained or did such on the QT - the existing EF staff will be busy writing, testing, debugging, re-writing, re-testing, documenting, packaging,  marketing, shipping, and supporting this robust new function
b) Pro will be very much like Poser 7 with little new function or increased robust-ness except the few things mentioned in the press release (content export of unknown accuracy, networking the aforementioned poor render engine, some memory management improvement under 64-bit).

Which product do you think will be dealt with "in spare time" - the copies of P7 they've already got the money for, or the new product that hasn't paid for itself yet?  Sane business practices dictate the latter.  We'll see how it turns out, but I find very little to be optimistic about in this announcement.

I still don't understand why they are trying to aim in this direction.

Even if Poser was as good as Maya,C4D, Max, etc... it still wouldn't be used in production because you cannot make a model from the ground up. I've heard this hundreds of times on the CGS forums.

If they throw in some modeling capability... then there is some serious competition.

It may be that DAZ forced their hand by stuffing COLLADA export into DAS|Studio and giving it away free, and EF is having to accelerate their development and release of Pro, and make money on that feature while it's still fresh.

Quote - I was using "cheap" in the positive sense - and pointing out that EF is positioning "Pro" to go to a not-cheap model.  From reading the press release, I didn't get the impression the price is going to go DOWN, and the a la carte model they're switching to, seeing how successful it is for other companies like Maxon and Autodesk - I think it is very likely they're moving away from cheap.  How much money are you willing to pay for the same basic render capabilities that you already own?

I suspected that you were using "cheap" in a good sense, and I took that into account.  Many others don't mean "cheap" in a good sense -- and I was taking that into account, too.

Once again -- I believe that you are making a whole passle of assumptions here.  While I certainly agree with you that this new version will undoubtedly cost more, I disagree with the idea that good news = bad news.  That is, I don't see the release of a pro version of Poser as indicating that e-frontier is now merely going to be charging us more for the same functionality as what's currently already found in P7 + a few minor added bells & whistles.  It appears that I'm seeing a lot more to be happy about from e-frontier's announcement than you are.

Quote - Look, you can't have it both ways - either: 
a) Pro will be a cool, valuable app packed with robust new function, in which case, unless they immediately hire a bunch of people and instantly get them trained or did such on the QT - the existing EF staff will be busy writing, testing, debugging, re-writing, re-testing, documenting, packaging,  marketing, shipping, and supporting this robust new function
b) Pro will be very much like Poser 7 with little new function or increased robust-ness except the few things mentioned in the press release (content export of unknown accuracy, networking the aforementioned poor render engine, some memory management improvement under 64-bit).

Which product do you think will be dealt with "in spare time" - the copies of P7 they've already got the money for, or the new product that hasn't paid for itself yet?  Sane business practices dictate the latter.

Frankly, I don't see why you "can't have it both ways".  For that matter -- I don't understand why this situation even falls under the rubric of "having it both ways".  Lots of companies produce & sell more than one software package at a time -- and they still manage to support them all.  You might argue the tack that e-frontier is somehow incapable of preforming such a 'delicate' balancing act between apps as is performed successfully by many, many other companies -- but I tend to doubt it.  There's no reason why they can't do both "hobbyist" and "pro" versions of the software -- and do it while supporting ALL of their customers.

Quote - We'll see how it turns out, but I find very little to be optimistic about in this announcement.

And that's the core of our disagreement.  I see lots to be optimistic about in this announcement.

I have Lightwave all warmed up and waiting.

These are the same arguments that happened when DAZ bought Carrara. There was a lot of animosity between the Carrara and Bryce communities. Everyone was upset and assumed that the app they were using would be shortchanged. DAZ has managed to keep both products seperated, targetted at different user bases, and under development.
I don't why E-F couldn't do the same thing.
It could easily turn out that advanced features from a pro version could trickle down to the standard version and force it to develop even more quickly.

I had the e-mail from DAZ about Carrara 6 (since I already own Carrara 5, I wish they'd stop trying to sell it to me again) and I think the top of the e-mail comprised three banners along the lines of "Beyond DAZ Studio"
"Beyond Bryce"
"Beyond Hexagon".
Not having the e-mail any longer, I'm not going to swear to the wording, but the impression I got was that Carrara 6 was being established as the next port-of-call for anyone using DS, Bryce, or Hexagon.   If Bryce, DS and Hex are going to be developed indefinitely and distributed free, or at rock-bottom prices, who's going to fork out for new levels of Carrara?    My guess is that Bryce, Hexagon and DS are being used to entice as many users as possible in the direction of Carrara 6.   If Carrara 6 succeeds, i.e. makes money, DS, Bryce and Hexagon will be history before very long, I suspect.

for those of us that aren't interested in blathering on in speculation alone: this is the response from e-frontier about the crippled poser7 from their free beta release of the Collada Exporter:-

*Thanks for letting us know! This is a known issue, and we're working to fix it. For the moment there are a couple of things you could try (although we can't guarantee their success.)

1. Copy the following files from the Poser 7 folder into the Poser 7/Runtime/Plugins/ folder:

 - msvcm80.dll
 - mscvcp80.dll
 - msvcr80.dll

1. Download and install the library found at this URL:

 http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=200b2fd9-ae1a-4a14-984d-389c36f85647&displaylang=en

Do let us know if you apply these fixes and how they work.
As this is still a fairly early beta version of the export script we welcome this kind of report!

Regards, Colin
Technical Support*

Hmm. Since deleting the Collada plugin seems to revive things, tell us how it goes.... ;) It's going to be interesting to see how well the Firefly renderer performs as a node (as in, not saddled with the GUI and library overhead). It may not be Renderman, but then again no one here is Pixar. Combined with the Collada output of lights and camera paths, this will open the way to render figure animations in Poser, export the light and camera data into another app, and generate scene elements there ready for matchmoving....or even simple compositing. That alone is going to open up the animation use possibilities with Poser in environments where you don't have to own every bloody polygon. Studios probably wouldn't touch it (except maybe for storyboarding; 3D pre vis can really save headaches later); but only a fraction of users of those higher end apps work at such studios. A big chunk of them are solo contractors....and if Vickie and PoserPro cuts costs and time, then the real professionals (ie: those who make a living at this) will start using the tool more when needed. E-on software manages 4 software lines of their flagship product, and there is filterdown of tech at version changes (like the Ecosystems 1 module that gives V6Pro and Esprit access to the tech formerly only in V5I and Xstream). Once they have Collada support working, the next logical step is extending the apps ability to handle more import info; such as some kind of rigging translation. E-frontier has been adding the things we've been asking for; from the sound of things, the new PPro is also still in early beta...so there is no telling what may be added or changed before release.

Quote - Frankly, I don't see why you "can't have it both ways".  For that matter -- I don't understand why this situation even falls under the rubric of "having it both ways".  Lots of companies produce & sell more than one software package at a time -- and they still manage to support them all.  You might argue the tack that e-frontier is somehow incapable of preforming such a 'delicate' balancing act between apps as is performed successfully by many, many other companies -- but I tend to doubt it.  There's no reason why they can't do both "hobbyist" and "pro" versions of the software -- and do it while supporting ALL of their customers.

It seems very likely to me that you've never participated in a large scale software rollout.  "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way.  They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done.  The latter is more common for isolated development efforts, but this is a moderate extension of Poser 7, so it'd be madness to use outside staff for that.  Possibly to supplement existing staff, but even then there'd be training time required.  Producing commercial software is not something you do on a casual basis, it's full time work.

Quote - It may be that DAZ forced their hand by stuffing COLLADA export into DAS|Studio and giving it away free, and EF is having to accelerate their development and release of Pro, and make money on that feature while it's still fresh.

And "Bingo" has been called, ladies and gentlemen... ! FBX nobody really cared too much about becuase the format itself was, well... crap. Only a few high-end proggies even bothered. Collada OTOH? Judging by the instant hard-ons I see when I mention the word to the mesh-heads at work, I think it's prolly a damned good thing to have if you intend on staying in the 3D mesh programming game. > Quote - Not having the e-mail any longer, I'm not going to swear to the wording, but the impression I got was that Carrara 6 was being established as the next port-of-call for anyone using DS, Bryce, or Hexagon

D|S will be around forever, as an entry-point to 3D for those who want to give it a whirl, or who don't need retina-bleeding results. Carrara is one hell of a complete suite that's priced very nicely, and has the flexibility to grow. Bryce? Prolly will be kept in semi-legacy mode (I dunno, maybe they'll keep it up indefinitely). Hexagon? Heh.. Hehehe.. ROTFLMAO! (that means: it needs work. Lots of work.) > Quote - "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way. They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done.

Or option #3: contract out what you need done via out-sourcing or intra-sourcing. ;) /P

That's kind of a variation on #2 really. ^_^
edit: short term labor = contract

Quote - It seems very likely to me that you've never participated in a large scale software rollout.  "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way.  They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done.  The latter is more common for isolated development efforts, but this is a moderate extension of Poser 7, so it'd be madness to use outside staff for that.  Possibly to supplement existing staff, but even then there'd be training time required.  Producing commercial software is not something you do on a casual basis, it's full time work.

That's all well and good -- but it's pretty much irrelevant to what we're talking about.  You seem to be operating under the assumption that the release of a new software package automatically means the denegration of service on other existing software packages which are produced by the same company.  That's like saying that the release of a new version of Lightwave instantly equates to Newtek neglecting support to it's VT[4] customers.  Or that the release of a new version of Microsoft Office instantly means less corporate support for Windows.

Whether the work is contracted out or done entirely in-house -- while it might be critical to internal corporate function -- it is rather meaningless from the viewpoint of end users.  The only thing that the end users see is the final product itself.  Not how many programmers were required to get the software finished.......and whether or not those programmers were in-sourced or out-sourced.  Those types of issues are matters which I'm sure that the management at e-frontier has well in hand.

It's not a zero-sum game.  The addition of a new thing doesn't mean the corresponding loss of something to someone else.  As you yourself have indicated: they can always hire more staff, or out-source, if needed.

The issue that'll matter to an end-user is whether or not they are receiving support for their product (P7).  And once again: I submit that several SR's for P7 being rolled out at the same time that "Poser Pro" (if that's what they'll call it) was clearly under development is a strong indication that e-frontier has by no means 'abandoned' their P7 user base.  If anything, I submit that they are going strong in developing their product(s) -- and their market share.  Which is all good, in my book.

http://bamick.blogster.com/tinkerbell_syndrome.html

OK - am I supposed to be the Tinkerbell, or am I the Lost Boy?  Am I the kid who couldn't wait to become an adult, or am I the kid who never wanted to grow up?  Or is Tinkerbell a Freudian symbol for the existential gestalt of all silly males of the species in general?  These are deep waters, Watson........deep, and rather dirty.............I'll have to give the matter some matching Deep Thought.

:biggrin:

Until we can find the answers to these vital questions: I'm still looking forward to the release of Poser Pro. 

I'll leave you tonight with greater depths to plumb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOlYKNIiooQ

Quote - > Quote - It seems very likely to me that you've never participated in a large scale software rollout.  "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way.  They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done.  The latter is more common for isolated development efforts, but this is a moderate extension of Poser 7, so it'd be madness to use outside staff for that.  Possibly to supplement existing staff, but even then there'd be training time required.  Producing commercial software is not something you do on a casual basis, it's full time work.

 

That's all well and good -- but it's pretty much irrelevant to what we're talking about.  You seem to be operating under the assumption that the release of a new software package automatically means the denegration of service on other existing software packages which are produced by the same company. 

Umm, it's not irrelevant. Lookit - say you're a software company. You have x number of programmers in your corral. Each programmer (if they're actually worth a damn) is going to cost you roughly $30-$50/hr in labor, with your top codemonkeys and architects costing you $60/hr (or more... very often more). Assuming you have one architect and three codemonkeys on Project #1 (being the size and complxity of Poser), and they take 18 months to build it from scratch, you paid out at least $450,000 in labor alone. This isn't counting the rough $20,000 - $30,000 in equipment, software licensing fees, etc. A new project can cost the same in addition if it has a completely different codebase, or a percentage thereof if it uses the same codebase. Either way, each new codemonkey still comes in at $30-$50/hr, and comes with lag-time while each gets up to snuff. Now with your company, you go from one product to two. The first is still constantly evolving, so you need at least 50-75% of your staff to keep going on that after it launches. Product #2 means you have to hire more people. If you cannot afford to do that, it won't get built (especially if Product #2 is just as complex and has a different codebase). Each new person you hire will take roughly 2-6 months (depending) to get up to speed on your codebase, methods, standards, design specs, etc. This means you still have a deficiency of talent, no matter which route you take. Therefore, you get to prioritize. You leave a couple of folks on Product #1 in maintenance mode (bug fixes, etc), while you concentrate on #2. Now granted that "Poser Pro" is essentially the same codebase as "Poser", so it isn't as large a split, but it still means a division of labor. It also means one other question: Which do you focus on the most? Where does your company's future lie? Which market do you bet the farm on if they differ and budgets get tight? > Quote - I submit that several SR's for P7 being rolled out at the same time that "Poser Pro" (if that's what they'll call it) was clearly under development is a strong indication that e-frontier has by no means 'abandoned' their P7 user base.

I will allow that they haven't - yet- but only insofar that the two are essentially the same codebase. That said, the more differentiation there is/becomes, the bigger the division of labor between the two, and there is still the overall company focus on which market it wants to court the most. /P

The same folks who make Ford F150 pick-ups also make Jaguars -- clearly catering to two very different markets at the same time.

BTW - I once worked on contract for Bechtel -- on a project for Kodak.  You know - Kodak, the film company?  Well, it turns out that Kodak also produces raw plastics for use in food containers.  Who'd have thunk it?  They make other products, too.........and they manage to support them all.

Companies -- including software companies -- have the ability to diversify.  In fact, in today's economy it's a very good idea for them to do so.  Sure, they can hire in a bunch of expensive contractors -- which some companies have decided is actually a cheaper alternative to hiring permanent staff.

I'm not a programmer, so I haven't worked for any software houses.  But I can tell you that in the engineering world, you'll often find very different products being fabricated by the same company -- sometimes even on the same site.  And sometimes even with the same staff in charge of all production.

No doubt that it's a balancing act - but I believe that even a software company can pull it off.  There are just a few out there who do..........

Once again: we'll see what e-frontier does.  I'll admit to the possibility that this new software package could ultimately turn out to be a disappointment.......such is life.  And it's conceivable that e-frontier could, long-term, dump its hobbyist products in favor of a totally pro market (although I strongly doubt it).  But I won't make such negative assumptions in advance -- and then treat them as foregone conclusions.  Nor will I knee-jerk assume that P7 customers will be left out in the cold to go begging for their bread once Poser Pro gets released.  Instead, I'll wait and see what e-frontier actually does, and not what outside observers inform me and others that they are going to do -- with all of the self-assured certainty of the man who declares to you that he just KNOWS that the Illuminati are plotting to take over the world.

shrug  Perhaps it IS true that the Illuminati are going to take over everything with black helicopters -- but I'll only believe it when I see it.  In the meantime, I'll wait to find out whether e-frontier is going to land a black helicopter squarely in my backyard -- or if the (highly speculative) dire conspiracy theories all turn out to be just another joke.

I know how I'm betting.  E-frontier might fumble the ball.  But I'd advise them not to --- and based upon their growth record so far -- even with all of the sound & fury which has accompanied it -- I'm anticipating good things.

Quote - The same folks who make Ford F150 pick-ups also make Jaguars -- clearly catering to two very different markets at the same time.

Apples/Oranges comparison: Ford and Bechtel are gigantic corporations, and don't have the same mechanics of production and design as software. Companies of EF and DAZ' size don't have the luxury of stocks, R&D departments, massive cash reserves, legal departments (because software patents are 'teh suck'), test markets, focus groups, etc.

Yet even there, you often see products that simply get orphaned (Corel has one hell of an impressive graveyard, which once included Bryce for a time. If DAZ hadn't bought it, odds are very good that it would be abandonware by now. Don't believe me? Look up "Canoma").

Quote - Companies -- including software companies -- have the ability to diversify.  In fact, in today's economy it's a very good idea for them to do so. 

Say that you're a company with 30-40 employees total, probably less. You have an annual budget that requires careful attention towards chasing down every stray dime. Each new programmer is guaranteed to pack at least $60k+ / yr onto your overhead. How many can you afford to throw at something new again when you have existing products to shepard along?

Thought so.

Quote - I'm not a programmer, so I haven't worked for any software houses.

Nor (apparently) have you ever had to run a small business and make it grow. Not an insult, just a statement.

It's a whole different world in there, 'mano... with a whole bucket of different rules and dynamics.

Quote - Once again: we'll see what e-frontier does.  I'll admit to the possibility that this new software package could ultimately turn out to be a disappointment.......such is life.  And it's conceivable that e-frontier could, long-term, dump its hobbyist products in favor of a totally pro market (although I strongly doubt it).

For the former, who knows? That depends on the product, how useful it can be to the target market, how solid/buggy it is, etc etc.

For the latter? Depends on how lucrative things are. If they see a flush of money and potential coming from the pros (or pro-level buyers), then that's where they're going to point their ship.

Quote - But I won't make such negative assumptions in advance -- and then treat them as foregone conclusions.

Nor will I. Me, my current interests stretch only as far as what I can get poser stuff to do in either D|S (primarily) or P6.

Quote - I know how I'm betting.  E-frontier might fumble the ball.  But I'd advise them not to --- and based upon their growth record so far -- even with all of the sound & fury which has accompanied it -- I'm anticipating good things.

The really fun part is, I'm not in the biz insofar as Poserdom... I swim with bigger fish nowadays; folks who think nothing of dropping a metric ton of cash onto whatever they deem needed and necessary. No makey here shrug.

That said, I've seen and known the smaller houses, and I know the balancing acts they get to perform. But then, the bigger risk often leads to bigger reward if it's calculated right.

/P

Anyone considered that a version of poser with serious integration with other "high-end" 3d apps would make it a prospective aquisition?

Cuz shade ain't all that.

@casette

I have to completely agree with casette. On this occassion I'm going to sit it out until the second Poser Pro SR2 gets released. Poser 7 keeps crashing on me during renders and file saves etc its a real problem and I hate it, so casinos be damned they can even package in a 64 bit machine I'll still sit it out, heck Poser 7 is full of bugs and they haven't even sorted things out so what gives it the right to go Pro?
PXP

This talk of hobbyist being "abandonded" by a new version of poser
is just just silly myopic,selfish,entitlement for life, netizen nonsense!!!
there are people still running poser 4-5-6
that fact that those versions are no longger being developed
has not stopped users from rendering in them.

Dudes, you talk a lot

I simply hate 'Professional' word added to new Poser. Perhaps marketing people at eF thought 'Professional' word convert Poser in a serious 3D software (taking sounds of previous 'professional' versions of software like Office, XP, Nero Burning-Rom, etc). Using poser content in Carrara, 3DMax or Maya doesn't convert a software in professional, but its result. I mean: a software fully functional without waiting a second SR pack

I'll follow earn money with my 'unprofessional' Poser7 by the moment   :P

Quote - Dudes, you talk a lot

Yes, we do -- but it's so much FUN, right?  That's why other folks read the threads.  :biggrin:  And that's what public forums are for.  It's about like setting up a soapbox on a streetcorner. 

Peng, I'm currently too tied up at the small business that I now work for to take the time to answer you point-by-point.  Maybe I'll have some time to kill later tonight.  But I will say that this is the type of subject that we can end up arguing into the ground after awhile.........we just ain't likely to agree here, no matter what gets said.

Newtek is a much smaller company than Bechtel, or Fluor Daniel, or Raytheon, or any of the other very large corporations that I have worked for over the years.  But Newtek still manages to produce several different software packages -- and they do so effectively.  In the case of a growing company like e-frontier -- which I remind you has its corporate headquarters in Japan, not in San Francisco -- I can envision their eventual arrival at the Newtek level.  Corporate size might be a limiting factor -- but it's not a stopping point.  Companies have been known to grow & to branch out into new markets over time.

Ford & Bechtel both started out pretty small, too.

Most musicians can play more than one note.  I have the feeling that e-frontier is going to surprise some people with where they are headed.

Now........shifting gears back to conduits, cables and power transformers..........

Quote - Anyone considered that a version of poser with serious integration with other "high-end" 3d apps would make it a prospective aquisition?

That thought has crossed my mind, too.  But we forumites don't have any more control over that possibility than we do over which products e-frontier does or does not choose to release.