Quote - Sounds like not much of what I said sunk in. I really don't have anything new to say.
Kind of a bugger that you have to blow your own horn though... 
You could be king Faruk for all I care, you're still not making a good showing here, IMO.

Sorry, but what you were saying wasn't all that germane - you were making claims that simply weren't grounded much in reality. My apologies if that sounds harsh, but that's what it boils down to. No, I'm not King Farouk (though if I were in either rank or position, the analogy would almost be apt; ruling over a once-great community reduced to an unfettered but servile capitalist ethos, etc). I merely mentioned all I had because I found it highly amusing to be referred to as a leech, even in a roundabout way. Point is real simple: This place needs to get back to its roots if it expects to survive, long-term. That means focusing not so much on buying, selling, and producing for same. It means focusing on community, not merely paying it lip-service. Tell you what - you mention that you build models, how about a project or three that I used to enjoy doing way back in the day: Build a freebie mesh of something - something that needs parts, textures, and accessories. Then get others to contribute bits to it. Package the results and release it to the world. You might even amaze yourself, and I recall learning a hell of a lot by doing it. -- Xeno: Bit of advice - If you hear Tim's stomach rumble after a hefty meal of Mexican food, you may want to get out of the way; I'd hate to see you suffer a nose suddenly stuffed with a rather unpleasant substance that no amount of antihistamine would ever clear. ;) Okay, that prolly wasn't a nice thing to say, but dude, it pains me to see a once-independent thinker such as yourself stoop to the title of "blind fanboy". -- Tyr: No worries, I've been somewhat under-the-radar of late... not near as much slack time as I once had. I think that should about cover it... Thread's yours, campers! :) /P

Peng --

Connie is a 3D professional in the truest sense of the word.  You should read back over some of the old threads where she went into some detail about her background.  You might find yourself being the one who's surprised.

She's also been contributing freestuff & taking requests on the same -- right here in the forum.  Search.

Connie is also a friend of mine.

As for my being an "independent thinker" -- I always have been.  I still am.  And that's why I say the things that I do in regards to the site.  The opinions which I express in the forum are strictly my own.  No one feeds them to me, and no one types out my thoughts except for I, myself.  So the credit or the blame for the things that I say in here belongs to me -- and to me alone.  I am not speaking officially in these threads: I am expressing personal opinions.

Peng -- I think that you should know me well enough to understand that I'm essentially unaffected by the personal slams, etc. which might happen to be thrown in my direction in the forums.  It's all meaningless to me.  I'm comfortable enough in my own skin to not faint over being called names.  And if any person who is in reality wholly unconnected with me -- and who for that matter has never even met me in person, or spoken with me -- chooses to attempt to define my supposed faults through the lens of their own biases -- it's just ridiculous enough to be quite funny, actually.  I snort rather than frown as I read through the posts.

I had stopped trying to reason with you in this thread; having reached the conclusion that such a course was largely a waste of time: over matters that were silly arguments at their base.  Plus there was the fact that I didn't have much time to kill over the last several days, anyway.  Things at the office had fallen into a Chinese fire drill pattern.   If it's all the same to you, I'd rather not take up where we left off in our former discourse.  The conversation (read: fight) wasn't accomplishing anything other than to provide idle entertainment for lurkers -- and irritation to others who don't like reading stuff like that in the forums: but who do it anyway.

Frankly, I was hoping that you had decided to exercise the better part of valor here.  shrug 

Quote - Thread's yours, campers! :)

Perhaps you have.

I'd hate to see you suffer a nose suddenly stuffed with a rather unpleasant substance that no amount of antihistamine would ever clear. ;) 

You must mean sudoepherdrine, no? Antihistamine is a histamine antagonist used to prevent allergens from irritating the mebranes, you know.
Sudoephedrine among few newer ones is a nasal decongestant, and in case you're curious, Guiafenasine is a chest decongestant. 
(Once you grow up and have kids you too will learn not to mix up medications.)

But, you do look kind of cute when you think you know what you're talking about. My stepdaughters little boyfriend tries to be charming like that too. It almost works on her.

Cute Doggie Butt, but Kitties are more fun! 

"Oooo... bright laser pointer dot! Must CHase maddly round the room til I fall over!" 

Cute!

Thanks for the Kudos Dale. I appreciate the kind words. Just one correction though.

Quote - While now a free download (due more to Anton deciding to get out of for pay content modelling and doing as a beloved hobby again), when it was on sale it was the most expensive single purchase figure that existed (and might still hold the record).

Even at $99, which was only ever two months, at that time Apollo was always less expenive that the Millenium bundles with with similar, but less content in them. They Mil folk bundles were never less expensive than Apollo at any time.

In reality Apollo held the record for the signle least expensive figure package bundle of it's kind and quality. Aside from only the 3rd and 4th month it was available, Apollo's bundle was always $49.95.

Daz actually lowered their bundle prices later to respond to Apollo's lower pricing, but their bundles were actually always most expensive.

http://www.thecatconnection.com/newsletter/nov03/nov03-cathumor_a.html

I wanted to share these cat pics so I might as well put them here. :)

"Still Daz relies on Poser to make models though...no iffs about it...you still can't make a model posable with out it.  I don't see that changed in Carrara."

I think you're wrong about C6. We'll see if it's as easy and/or complete as Poser's rigging abilities when it comes out. They're still releasing sneak peeks now. So no in a way you are right. Daz has nothing released right now that does what your saying like Poser does.

dogor,

Quote - http://www.thecatconnection.com/newsletter/nov03/nov03-cathumor_a.html

I wanted to share these cat pics so I might as well put them here. :)

Oh, Anton, those are just too adorable LOL

You're more than welcome, Anton. Like I said, credit where credit is due. And yeah, AM -was- ultimately a cheaper deal....I just have all those fond memories of the yowls and howls about how much AM cost....ignoring all that was included, and how much you had to buy to get equivalent performance out of M2/3...or as close to equivalent as possible (kinda like that 'free' app that seems to be getting more and more expensive as time goes on.....) Nice overhand volley there, Connie..... ;)

I think some people were just confused that everything was included, normally being used being nickle and dimed to death with other figures. 

Besides... to expect people to read anything before billboarding an uninformed opinion? Now that's just wishful thinking. :)

Of course some were just blantant trolls and Daz merchants. Not that they are always the same thing of course.

Connie, I know. I stumbled across that page and thought of you. I don't normally go for cutsey animal pics but those are exceptional.

Quote -
Connie, I know. I stumbled across that page and thought of you. I don't normally go for cutsey animal pics but those are exceptional.

Awww, Thank You! You made my day with those!

I'm not sure what everyone is arguing about.  We've been here and done this before back when Curious Labs Release Poser Pro Pack.  Pro Pack did no change the face of 3D human history but did offer a better feature set, multiple viewports, and  visibile camera as well as bringing it's bump map system up to the standards of other programs.  What ended up happening with Poser 5 is that the 3D compatibility modules went away and other features were re-absorbed into Poser regular.

Poser is not respected among 3D purists but is already used by many graphics professionals, and indeed I've seen examples on TV commercials, etc.  It's the industries dirty little secret, pssst don't tell anyone I used Poser on this.  If Poser Pro 7 gives Poser more respect in the industry it will be a good thing.   I don't think there is any risk that regular Poser is going away, e-frontier knows where it's bread is buttered--but who can blame them for wanting to expand their market.

Quote - I'm not sure what everyone is arguing about.

And with that single statement, my friend.....you've quite succiently managed to sum up about 90% of this thread very nicely.

Quote - Poser is not respected among 3D purists but is already used by many graphics professionals, and indeed I've seen examples on TV commercials, etc.  It's the industries dirty little secret, pssst don't tell anyone I used Poser on this.  If Poser Pro 7 gives Poser more respect in the industry it will be a good thing.

Yes......I'm seeing Poser stills & animations being used more and more often for everything from simple magazine print ads to 3D animated recreations on the History Channel and elsewhere.  Poser is being used by the pros a LOT more often than anyone wants to admit to in public -- because doing so would be like making an embarassing faux pas at a formal dinner party.  *"Sure.......everybody uses toilet paper........but it's not something that we discuss in mixed conversation, young man!"

*> Quote - I don't think there is any risk that regular Poser is going away, e-frontier knows where it's bread is buttered--but who can blame them for wanting to expand their market.

Oh......there are a few people around who'll blame them for anything that they do.  And most of them will buy e-frontier's next product just as soon as it hits the market. 

It's the fear that 3D can be easyier that scares the high end folks. You can't make 50+ an hour doing something a lot of people can do. It's coming more to the point now that custom created content is not necessary. Pre made content takes a slice of their pie. Poser made/makes that happen and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to use it. Lots of models in the banks out there that can look custom with a morph or new texture. Only a few need to have it custom made all the time?

Quote - It's the fear that 3D can be easyier that scares the high end folks. You can't make 50+ an hour doing something a lot of people can do. It's coming more to the point now that custom created content is not necessary. Pre made content takes a slice of their pie. Poser made/makes that happen and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to use it. Lots of models in the banks out there that can look custom with a morph or new texture. Only a few need to have it custom made all the time?

Actually what happes, as the abilities grow, so do the client expectations, and very often thewre's more people needed to fulfill them. Everything moves up a notch or two, not just low end. At least that's what's been happening in the business for last 20+ years I've been in it, in spite of people that have been making the same claims you're making now for 20+ years that I've been hearing.

Also, same model banks are available to 'high enders' too, and believe me, they know how to take advantage of it much more then someone whom just acquires the software and is starting out in 3D. Besides, sometimes it quicker and easier to model and texture something then to find and purchase and read through terms of use it and make sure they're not violated... when you're a high-ender that is.

Great point.

I recall when some newly-installed production lines were automated at a Michelin plant where I was working on contract.  Instead of requiring something like a dozen well-paid people to run them, the new lines needed only two.  This fact did not make the floor workers who were stationed on the older lines very happy.  The day is possibly coming when an entire plant facility (in some industries) will only need one or two people on the floor to watchdog the place.  The unions won't like that, guaranteed --

But there are a couple of points on the other side of the equation.  One point being that while I've seen the introduction of new technology cause certain jobs to be eliminated -- at the same time the new technology has also created other, entirely fresh positions elsewhere: positions which require skill.  Another point being that the advances which I've seen occur over the years in software apps which are commonly used in association with real-world engineering applications have lead to a need for more brains to use those applications: not less need.

If / when the day arrives that any clever 11-year-old kid with a computer and some basic software can slap together a feature-length realistic-looking 3D movie in a single Saturday afternoon's work -- then some of the well-paid highend 3D jobs might be at risk.  However, IMO: somebody will always be needed to do the highend work of 3D.  Advances at the bottom tend to advance the top, too.  Or perhaps a better way to look at it is that the new advances in highend 3D are leading to better resources at the bottom, as well.  But the top keeps getting higher in the process.

.......which is another way of saying what Connie has already said. 

In the meantime smucks like us have more of a chance of getting paid for something we do if we produce the desired result, which we can now because we can actually afford the tools needed to do so.  CG is everywhere, so there has to be a lot of people creating lots of stuff, just a few graphic designers can't do it all.

I'm sure that the software companies haven't lost sight of the fact that if people can't use the stuff to make money too they'd be loosing a chunk of the market.  Sure I can't repackage James and say he's mine, but I can create an ad for a magazine with him with no prohibitions.  This 3D stuff is just like clip art and stock photos in a way, it's expected to be used for varried purposes.

I can tell you, in the realm of Autocad I'm definately one of the 'high enders' and I hear these arguments all the time. What low enders don't realize when they claim the high end will be phased out is that by the time they are catching up to the stuff high enders have been doing for a while, the high enders are already several steops ahead and on to different newer thigns, and are quite happy to hand over the tedious part of the work to the upcoming people.

Same thing with advice I often get from small minded people, not to teach people 'everything I know'. I never listen to that one either. By the time I'm ready to actually teach someone something (in a meaningful manner), it means I know it like the back of my hand, and I'm not worried that I'll be passed up. By that time, I'm usually experimenting and using a whole new bag of tricks...  And if someone is capable of surpassing me, power to them, but usually, that doesn't happen in massive numbers. It's onsies and twosies. I'm not the only one in possesion of knowledge and information. Plus, when someone figures out something new that I haven't figured out, then I can learn from them... Especially if they remember me being nice and helping them in the past.

There is a reason 'high-enders' are at the high end, and it has less to do with the software then it has to do with people.

Isn't it allowable to make things just out of sheer joy for the creative process anymore?
Is every painter expected to be Rembrandt?
Is every sculptor expected to be Phidias?

The tools are becoming more affordable, but then what was considered high end a few years ago is low end now. I agree the high enders have nothing to worry about (if they keep up), but the day is coming when the computer software itself will put a few high enders out of a job. Computers that only need a few quality pictures and a button pushed for models and landscapes. Of course that still leaves modeling things that don't exist in the real world and worlds that no longer exist, but even that depends on how good the software gets. No, an eleven year old kid isn't going to be able to mow enough lawns to by software and the machines that can render it, but then here is another service. Send your files to a service that can and for a fee in a week or month or few days you have the renders you couldn't have done at home. Some studios do that I hear, it's not heard of for hobbyist and amatuers yet. People are still trying to make there home computer do their own. When are they going to realize that's too expensive to keep maintianing and in a year or two their obsolete already.

Quote - Yes......I'm seeing Poser stills & animations being used more and more often for everything from simple magazine print ads to 3D animated recreations on the History Channel and elsewhere.  Poser is being used by the pros a LOT more often than anyone wants to admit to in public -- because doing so would be like making an embarassing faux pas at a formal dinner party.  *"Sure.......everybody uses toilet paper........but it's not something that we discuss in mixed conversation, young man!"

I'm seeing Poser on TV a lot as well. It's a shame they don't bother to actually use any of the character's morphs or textures to make them look less "Default". Hardly what 'd call professional looking but hey, even pro's are lazy sometimes.

Some of you have it all backwards.  Software and content, regardless of quality, don't make unique and appealing art.  A casual overview of the gallery here should show that simply plugging together somebody else's content, even if it's all very good individually, does not automatically result in something interesting or even attractive.  Even with access to very high quality rigged figures, people still don't pose figures very artfully, let alone convincingly; eyes are still staring off into space, expressions are still slack and dead, hands are minimally adjusted from default poses.  These are just the things that Poser is already good at; not even going into the abuses of colored lighting, depth of field, very obtrusive postwork effects and the like - things that are true in all forms of CG artwork.

Whatever piece of software can become so evolved that it's indistinguishable from a photograph, and people will still get crap like this wrong.  I gaurantee you, when Poser version 25 or 3ds Maxaya version 32a is released, people will still be getting crap like this wrong. Galleries will still have zeppelin-chested empty-eyed slack-jawed aerobics models, standing naked in temples with swords, with physically accurate bad lighting and genuine boob physics simulation - although lots of people will turn that off because really, who wants to look at great gigantic saggy boobs?*

A few people - and I don't pretend I'm one of them - will get it right, really right.  Those people may be able to make a living at it.

*edit: perfectly centered too.

Totally agree, pjz99!

Indistinguishable from a photograph and, can you say, Polaroid provide a good example.  Red eye, flash bulb oversaturation, thumb over lens, bad framing.  Even a photograph can be flubbed up by inexperience.

It is all in the use of the tools and not the tools themselves - and I too don't pretend any excellence here.  Given lemons, make lemonade.  The point of that little quip is of course: make the best use of what you have and stop opining about what you don't.  The best take, pardon my french, crap and make brilliance.  The rest of us ponder how...

Great points PJZ99 and kuroyume!   May I say, me too! I agree wholeheartedly.

I wanted to add this too:
Over last 20 years working for clients, I can tell you that no matter how high end the software is, invariably a client will ask for something that requires a lot of inventiveness and jumping through hoops, and hardly something that can be accomplished at the push of a button, or two or three, or by someone with little experience. Its' the companies that give them what they want that get the clients. Close is usually not good enough. It has to be right on the money.

Part of my job, as the director if a 3D visualizations department in my company is to farm out work when practical, feasible, and we get qiality product back. I'd LOVE to be able to farm out more work, but unfortunately, something always happens... the consultants often misrepresent their abilities (something that happens all too often), or don't deliver on time or aren't available when needed and a ton of other little things that makes it unfeasible or impossible to use them. That's when you're doing business and have to be conscious of product quality, costs, timely delivery (a biggie), copyrights and similar business related issues.

Sometimes farming out $10,000 worth of work, to someone that has a mishap and doesn't deliver, can end up costing out company few milion dollars in lost contracts. It's just not worth the business risk.

I've been on both sides, operated a small company, viz studio of my own with couple of employees 4-5 years back, and working for medium and large companies. Most of the time, software is the least of the issues and least of the costs. Goofed up projects often cost 10-15 times more then several copies of some $4-5 grand software.
Reputation for putting out a quality product is hard to build, and easy to mess up. There's a saying in our business, you're only as good as your last mistake.

If the tools did all the work, we'd living in The Matrix, wouldn't we?

but the day is coming when the computer software itself will put a few high enders out of a job. I think a more realistic threat would be that the high enders would all have to live in India and work for rice.

Okay, you make some good points all of you. I won't pretend I'm an expert just like you and I accept that, but I remember a time not to long ago when offices had monster piles of paperwork to process. Tickets had to be filled out by hand and records were log entries in thick books. Not that long ago.

I'm simply saying the software is going to make things easier to get excellent results. That's what computers have been doing for a while now. If you don't think you'll ever be replaced, well ask the people who used to staff all those offices if they were. They survived and learned how to adapt as things changed for the better. Believe me. Nobody liked doing all that stuff manually. You guys are narrow minded. I'm gone. See ya,

Quote - You guys are narrow minded.

Man, you're not even listening anyway.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program.....

**Rendering
**64bit Render Engine
Network Rendering
BackGround Rendering
HDR Image Creation and Export 

So let the speculation fly....
This does not say it IS FireFly. It does not say it is NOT fireFly. It could be another render engine. Maybe I got too excited speculating that it was v-ray....i said that because if trueSpace is available for less than $1000 including v-ray 1.5 as $295 of that total, perhaps the  company is agressive in gaining new partners.

Frankly, if it is technically possible, wouldn't that be interesting? Let's say that E-F/ChaosGroup did the math and went for volume....by offering vray as an option for, say and additional $200 (as opposed to the extra $300) at Caligari (trueSpace). They would split that on some percentage basis. Chaos would not make much on each. But just think of the volume!

Anyway,

1. is it even technically possible
2. did anyone talk to E-F at Siggraph and get harder information, such as 'it IS FF, just FF-64' or at least a denial that it is VRay?

Anybody know what HDR image creation means? Does it take a scene you build and make a probe out of it, or what?

Any speculation that if the render engine is 64-bit, what sort of speed gain might be possible.

Also, they are saying the render engine is 64-bit....does that imply Poser itself will be or must be 64-bit?

Anyway....just speculation

::::: Opera :::::

It's pretty unreasonable to believe EF is rolling out a completely new render engine without saying a peep about it.  That's the kind of thing any company would brag extensively about.  Especially silly to expect it would be a big brand like V-Ray, they'd be just as eager to brag if they had worked up any such deal.  Sure it would be interesting, sure it would be technically possible - it would also be interesting and technically possible if they had an arrangement to deliver Mental Ray or FinalRender or Maxwell or something, but none of that is remotely probable, or both parties would make big media announcements about it.  It's going to be Firefly.

Speed gain going to 64-bit will be negligible unless there is a profound change in the render itself.  The advantage will be effectively unlimited memory usage.

HDR image creation I'm pretty skeptical about; given that HDR format images are fundamentally different from RGB color images, if you start with Poser material, you end up with RGB images pasted to a skydome.  The image has to be recorded in HDR format in the first place.  Procedural shaders could, I suppose, generate an entirely new HDR image, but I don't see how you could gain anything converting an existing texture (even in a loss-less format like TIF) to HDR.  I suppose it is useful to be able to easily convert a given Poser scene into a skydome image, but it's not truly going to be an HDR image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdr_images

Quote - HDR images require a higher number of bits per color channel than traditional images, both because of the linear encoding and because they need to represent values from 10−4 to 108 (the range of visible luminance values) or more. 16-bit ("half precision") or 32-bit floating point numbers are often used to represent HDR pixels. However, when the appropriate transfer function is used, HDR pixels for some applications can be represented with as few as 10–12 bits for luminance and 8 bits for chrominance without introducing any visible quantization artifacts [3][4].

Quote - Also, they are saying the render engine is 64-bit....does that imply Poser itself will be or must be 64-bit?

 
oops,
No, ffrender.exe is already external from poser.exe; there is no particular reason that Poser itself will be 64-bit, and frankly, it doesn't really need to be, it's rendering that tends to make your work stop due to memory overflow.  I don't think I've heard of anyone complaining they overflow 3GB of process memory just setting up the scene.

Quote - I'm simply saying the software is going to make things easier to get excellent results. That's what computers have been doing for a while now.

If you do the work of a drone then eventually you will be replaced by one. This is true for all fields of work and art.

Quote - 1) is it even technically possible

2 main hurdles,

1. Poser right now is tied to FF, which is a REYES style renderer. VRay OTOH is a raytracer like mentalray and Maxwell. Converting poser from REYES to raytracing is not a simple task, at least not if you want to run VRay from within poser.

2. Poser does not have a proper open SDK. And from the responses by their people in this forum, they dont see it as a priority either. Their attitude is that python is good enough for everyone which is short sighted to say the least.

Quote - Anybody know what HDR image creation means? Does it take a scene you build and make a probe out of it, or what?

What it means in other renderers is that you are able to render out float/32 bit per channel files. But this is really only usefull when you are using real world lighting with GI and IBL, so i dunno what they plan on doing here. Maybe they will finally expose Poser's GI or add other features ?

You can make synthetic HDR images: A composited three pass render at 3 different exposure levels; low, middle, high.
You gain radiance (dynamic range) from the different exposure levels. That's what an HDR image is, a radiance file. Any .jpg skydome can be turned into a .hdr skydome w/ radiant properties. That's a really nice feature to have. You don't have to use HDRShop, which is strictly non-commercial use only, for the compositing.
I don't know if that is what they mean; but some other 3d softwares can do that, so...

Sure, purists are everywhere and demand that photographic composites are the only 'true' hdris; but there is no fundamental difference between a shader/material based hdri and a photographically based hdri, in terms of the dynamic range that the file format can carry.
The photograph will probably look more realistic, but that isn't always the goal; and if Poser can composite/manufacture real radiance files, then there is nothing stopping anyone that owns it from using their own photographs to make photographic hdris either.

I doubt if it would be probe format, probably longlat. You need a camera lens shader for that (wraparound, panorama, whatever you want to call it). The render is done at 2:1 aspect and the lens shader warps the output so it is a seamless sphere map that can be used for environmental spheres and to drive the IBL.

[quot]You can make synthetic HDR images: A composited three pass render at 3 different exposure levels; low, middle, high.

Actually you dont need to do this. Most renderers render every pixel internally as an 'HDR' pixel. They have to otherwise they would quickly run into rounding errors. It's just that when they have to write the pixel to file, they will clip it down to a normal LDR range.

Some of the better renderers allow you to choose whether this clipping happens or not and they support writing HDR images directly. This is what i expect them to add.

So the basic upshot of this section is... A): They are switching on some more powerful features that Firefly has. B): They've been decoupling the renderer slowly from the Poser system for a couple of releases to allow for additional modules like HDR processing and network rendering to be added. C): This could mean that they have a bastard renderer planned for 7Pro; enough like the firefly interfacing to keep from breaking things, and a buffed up beast behind that interface. D): As we know they have decoupled the renderer in 7, they might have something entirely new to be put in its place, and are holding that close so that they have a nice little bomb to drop at release. I also wonder if there aren't improvements planned for the hair and cloth modules. Simulation speeds would almost have to be improved, as well as collision detection, to have features that would appeal enough to a higher end market where time is $$$$.

"I also wonder if there aren't improvements planned for the hair and cloth modules. Simulation speeds would almost have to be improved, as well as collision detection, to have features that would appeal enough to a higher end market where time is $$$$."

Calculations liek that aren't much faster on higher end software then what you see in Poser.. they have more/different features, but when you add massive physics calculations, that just takes time to compute. Studios use render farms of a LOT o networed systems woring together, and each one is typically loaded for bear.

And I also already posted info from EF, that the application will run in 32 bit, but to take advantage of the 64 bit renderer , you need a 64 bit OS installed and running.

As far as replacing studios with lowerr end hardware.. eventually yes that could happen, but with each hardware advance, there is also a software advance, with newer high end feature possibilities.. that's why the best high end software still costs as much (or more) as it did 10 or 15 years ago.

And professionals won't settle for "second best".. they WILL want the latest greatest, in their commercial applications, or in films.

You CAN deliver lower end "cable" commercial quality product with cheaper tools now, but you could also do that 15 years ago with lightwave and the video toaster.. but just like then as now, lower end production pays much less, expects the moon and stars, and has no understanding of time vs costs, and want everything dirt cheap or free. Upside is lower ed stuff looks much better then it used to, and that will always be the case.

I don't see the computer graphics advancements ending for another 10 years or so, and hardware advancments are still movng so fast, there's no telling what we'll all be using then.. heck, we might all be using some 3d system by then. and 3d computetions might be even more complex then, still pushing the hardware beyond software's limits.

look back 10 years, look at what we all used, and then look at today, and all the high tech gadgets.. cell phones, blueberries, advanced laptops, GPS, ect.. now try to imagine that many advancements 10 years out.. it's kinda staggering how fast everything is still moving.

While you all have good points, I am in the Dale camp....I think it might NOT be FireFly. 

Who owns/develops FF? Making it 64-bit, render in background and netrender savvy...these are substantial upscale shifts. Is E-F responsible and capable of a substantial revamp of the external and/or owned-by-someone-else FireFly? Dale, how do you know these features have already existed and are just now being 'turned on?'

And they may be saving the 'brand' of the render engine for a PR bomb, indeed, like Dale said. In other words pjz, yes they are going to make significant hay out of it, but the mower has not entered the field yet. Further evidence: if it is FF, why are they saying "a" 64-bit renderer, not touting "a completely transformed FireFly making it a world-class engine" or something like that. I don't think the true puffery has begun, yet.

On the other had, the bit about switching from REYES (render everything you see, right?) to raytrace...that sounds ominous. Yet...what is the explanation of the current ability of FF to render raytrace and the existence of a nascent GI stub? 

(my modest and somewhat inept, but still interesting all-Poser raytrace animation. No postwork: http://jrdonohue.com/diamonds2.mov )

Speaking of blueberries, did everyone notice that the July blueberry season, the anticipation of which has helped me through winter for decades, is no longer accompanied by a 4-6 week drop in price and a surge in freshness and ripeness quotient? What the HELL happened to blueberry season??

::::: tragic Opera :::::

Quote - On the other had, the bit about switching from REYES (render everything you see, right?) to raytrace...that sounds ominous. Yet...what is the explanation of the current ability of FF to render raytrace and the existence of a nascent GI stub?

It probably does most everything in REYES but switches to raytrace for stuff that needs it. While this sounds cool in theory, it is actually very hard to optimize for both raytracing and REYES. So we have the painfully slow GI and raytracing and fast displacements. The opposite of what most poser scenes need.

Compare with mentalray's pure raytrace, which it uses it for everything from reflections to GI to shadows to SSS. But since it only deals with one kind of tech it can be tuned up the wazoo and is extremely fast at raytracing. Same with VRay, which is even more focused on GI and is therefore even better at it. But both are slower at displacements.

"So we have the painfully slow GI and raytracing and fast displacements. The opposite of what most poser scenes need."

I see. Hmm...what if the type of scene would be favored by REYES?

Can the raytrace engines be made to do soft shadows and watercolor-like effects?

::::: Opera :::::

"What the HELL happened to blueberry season??"

Simple.. up here in NC wher ethey grow wild, we had two BA frosts late in April... and since then,. we've had a massive drought.. VA looks like brown wheat fields, where there used to be green grassy fields.. we just vacationed there.. waterfals have dried up to a trickle, and here in NC, the spring fed stream through our property is gone.. not running low, literally completely bone dry!

And it was so srtong in the last few years, we toy'd with the idea of a small waterwheel in it!

The plants here have had little or no rain, so vegitables and fruits are scarce.. there have been more bear repots of late as well because of it.

This used to be the second biggest apple producer in the US.. this year, they are trucking IN apples for the apple festivals!

I saw blackberries for a WHOLE week...and that was it.. the bushes are all barren and are starting to look "falish". Some cornfields here are barely 2 feet tall.. and by now they should be over 8 feet tall.

We had two small tomatoes 2 over a month ago...I'll be getting our FIRST tomatoes since then in a few days.. and my tomatoe plnts are in large planters now sitting in bigger ones filled with water so they can produce.

Fruit and berries in the eastern US are scant now, and I suspect we'll see higher prices for a while because of that.

REYES friendly (though not necessarily poser friendly) would be displacement, motion blur, NURBS and SubDs instead of polygons, little or no raytracing, mapped shadows, mapped reflections, no refractions or transparency. Because of the raytracing thing, you also have to avoid SSS, AO, GI and IBL which all rely on raytracing.

Quote - Can the raytrace engines be made to do soft shadows and watercolor-like effects?

Soft shadows yes easily. They also do area lights which simulate the light that casts soft shadows, like an open window or skylight and coolest of all, IES lights:

IES lighting

Watercolor and other painterly effects i'm not sure about. What little work i'v seen in this direction is mostly done in a compositor after the render is done.

IES.....Wow, that is way cool! 

That is just the effect I am looking for. I'm working towards the "look" of this image, but want underlying detail, and speed. The image here was produced in Poser7 with modest lighting and render settings, as it is a frame of animation. 38 seconds render time. Desaturation and grain plus other filters in AfterEffects.

I've just moved IES up the ladder in my current trial of 3DSMax.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - Calculations liek that aren't much faster on higher end software then what you see in Poser.. they have more/different features, but when you add massive physics calculations, that just takes time to compute. Studios use render farms of a LOT o networed systems woring together, and each one is typically loaded for bear.

Amen to that!
Actually, the standard MO with intensive calculations for simulations and for renderings is to run them overnight. An example where I work right now is... during the day I have 2 people and a total of 4 copmputers available to me.
At night, when our cad department people are at home, 10 or so of their high end cad stations become a render farm. I never had to use them all.
When you are familiar with how things work, it's pretty easy to plan ahead.
Another company where I worked, we had 60 cad stations available as networking render nodes at night.

Nice thing about high end software is that it lets you do these kinds of things, and it also lets you start and stop and restart simulations and renderings mid way.

Just rewriting a normal image file to .hdr file format doesn't make an HDRI. That is called an LDRI. 
If you want the final image to have the High Dynamic qualities of an HDRI, you have to composite varying exposure levels, simple as that. http://debevec.org/
Might seem like nitpicking; but if you need the High Dynamic information, an LDRI isn't going to cut the mustard.

Opera Guy, I have never seen a render like that from MR. Not saying it can't be done, just never seen it before. Seems to me like you'd be better off with the scaline renderer than fussing w/ mental ray. The scanliner is quicker too, as long as you don't activate either of the advanced lighting solutions.

Will 7Pro use Firefly, or will it use a different render engine?  Maybe somebody outside of ef knows the answer to that question -- but I know that I don't.    Perhaps I'll know the answer after the product gets released.  Unless, of course, if ef chooses to announce it beforehand.

Until then -- your guess is as good as mine.

Quote - Calculations liek that aren't much faster on higher end software then what you see in Poser.. they have more/different features, but when you add massive physics calculations, that just takes time to compute. Studios use render farms of a LOT o networed systems woring together, and each one is typically loaded for bear.

Hmmm.  I have to disagree here.  Poser cloth and hair sims are SLOOOOOW.  Cinema 4D cloth and hair sims are times faster - direct experience here.  Same computer being used.  And I would suspect that Maya cloth and hair sims are faster still.

You seem to be under the impression that there is only one way to skin a sim cat.  Look at IK - LOOK at IK.  There are two basic types of IK solver: numerical and analytical.  There are a bazillion variations of these: CCD, Pin&Drag, 2D, 3D, specialized, Jacobian, spline, and so on  and so on and so on.  There are thousands of books and papers on IK systems from robotics and 3D.  There are more ways to do IK solvers than I can enumerate here.

Do you think that there is only one form of cloth and hair dynamics simulation algorithm?  And that there aren't better algorithms that are faster?  Bresenham's line algorithm used to be considered the end-all algorithm for drawing lines as fast as possible ever!  Most people still think so, too.  Now, it is considered just one archaic approach that has been surpassed by much better algorithms and optimizations - see N-step, EFLA, Wu, optimized Bresenham.  The reason - while most people looked at it and said "Hmmm, that's about the best we can ever do", others attacked the problem from different angles and bettered it.

A Google search on "3D Hair simulation papers" or "Cloth simulation papers" should show that there is no stopping new ideas and progress in making better and faster simulators!

Heh, Xeno, your post and good part of this thread reminded me of some philosophy and anthropology reading I did couple years back where it was said that men arguing about politics or business moves is a male version of girls talking about relationships or other 'more female' subjects.