From what I have seen so far Bryce 5 is not going to be the huge advance over the previous version. What I did notice by close examination of Clays Bryce 5 renderings is that the terrain generator still generates blocky and spiky fractal terrains. All of us who need to produce under deadline know that the most time spent in bryce is fixing the various quirks of the renderer and generator. Something that should have been fixed certainly in Version 5. Bryce and produce remarkable results but much work needs to be done to get to that point. So to highlight this attached are two renders. The first is a default render of a bryce terrain. I just selected one of the default material presets that come with the package. Other than move the camera to eliminate the flat horizon no other adjustments were made. The second image is a default render from terragen, again only the camera was moved a tad to remove a rock face that was obscuring the view in the near forground. NO other adjustments were made from the default SW settings. In terragens case a material was not even selected this is the way it renders terrains without any changes. The Quality difference between the two is quite dramatic. This is the type of improvements I was expecting to see from Bryce 5. Let us remember that Terragen is still currently free.

The terragen default render

The bryce render is default from bryce 4. Not 5 but so far I have not seen anything to indicate that the quality of the terrain generator has changed any.

It is quite nice but very limited as to what you can do from what I can tell. I could't really see since I can't use it.

Let me state that this is not a comparison of the two packages. This is a comparison of one function that is the CORE functionality of the two packages. In my eyes so far Terragen wins the environmet creation functionality hands down between the two. The Cloud, environment, and water generation is far superior. It is this aspect that I compare. I was expecting similar improvements for Bryce 5. SOme real changes in the way it handles fractal generation and the quality built in. You can get bryce to generate as good a terrain and sky as terragen. But the work required to get there is high. But when you have the chance to start off with a fractal and sky generated terrain such as the one provided by terragen much work is saved. Terragen is not a modeler there is much more functionality in Bryce. But I like so many other people were waiting for such improvements in Bryce 5, It still may be a great new release but so far I do not see much there that can not already be done in B4. We will just have to wait and see.

I realize it was a point to point comparison but to me the point is moot since there is no Mac version of terragen and it might be great for terrains but it is only able to do that.

It is a pretty much irrelevant point anyway since it doesnt take any longer to make a great terrain in Bryce. As was pointed out, you simply up the resolution of the terrain to get rid of the jaggies, takes milliseconds! - Bryce 5 is capable of much higher res terrain generation, 4x current top of 1024 (it was in beta 1 anyway according to a friend!) this will mean much more complex terrain detail in just one mesh. You dont need to work hard at Bryce, you just need to know how it works to get good results, and its far from complex! - other features in Bryce 5 as already discussed on another thread will make it a worthy upgrade alone!

intuitive user-interface - Extremely easy to use layout, along with realistic default settings, allows the creation of good-looking scenes within seconds of starting the program. random fractal terrain - Controllable parameters allow extremely varied terrain shapes. Can also be used to 'fill in' realistic terrain on a user-defined landscape. high detail foreground texturing - The rendering engine allows extreme close-ups of landscape details with automatic level of detail adjustment. terrain sculpting tools - Can be used to 'paint' the shape of the landscape, to position mountains and valleys or make changes to random landscapes. Random terrain generation can be used 'fill in' realistic terrain over deliberately positioned mountains and valleys. terrain modification tools - Functions for allowing overall modification of terrain shape, such as glaciation. combination of terrains - Two terrains can be combined together to produce a new terrain, using a number of different methods such as 'highest', 'lowest', height addition and subtraction, to extend the usefulness of the terrain generation system. terrain import/export - Terragen can import and export raw heightfield information in 8-bit greyscale (and soon 16-bit). Possible uses include the construction of terrains from externally created pictures. Terragen can also save terrains as Lightwave LWO files, and files compatible with the 'Import Binary' feature in VistaPro. hierarchical surface colour map - The surface of the landscape is divided into different components, such as grass and rock. Any component (surface) may be divided further, as far as is desired. There is huge potential for very complex, detailed landscape surfaces with this system. water - Lakes and seas can be rendered, complete with ripples/waves and soft reflections. cloud layer - A 2-dimensional cloud generator and rendering system which realistically shades the clouds to give an impression that they are actually 3-dimensional. Also, an experimental 3-dimensional cloud renderer which can in most cases provide even more realistic results. multi-haze atmospheric model - This allows for highly realistic skies and haze, while allowing room for experimentation and artistic licence. volumetric lighting - Shadows from the terrain and clouds can be cast into the atmospheric haze to give 'sunbeams' and improve the overall lighting of the atmosphere. realistic sunlight penetration system - Calculates the dimming and reddening of the sunlight through the atmosphere. Improves foggy scenes and gives gorgeous sunsets with ease while still permitting control over its effects. anisotropic lighting of atmosphere - At present, this is achieved by a convincing 'glow' effect applied to clouds and haze. 'soft' shadows - Although only calculated by approximation, this effect looks almost perfect and has no rendering time overhead. Create terrains up to 4097 X 4097 pixel resolution. Plugin compatible for use with Lightwave. IT IS FREE. Bryce 5's terrain gen program will have to be a phenominal improvement to match these features. Bryce 4's terrain generator can only creat a terrain that is only 500 X 500 or so pixel resolution. Ans well as for the Lightwave plugin functionality, I suppose you feel that the bryce product is an equal modeler and animation package to Newteks LW 6.5 Nd no it does not take milliseconds or every Bryce modeler out there would be kicking out images like ones the default Terragen creates. And I certainly do not see many of those on the Gallary. Have you actually looked at the terragen gallery. The output of that application and the photorealistic capability is uncanny. Anyway as I said before. It is this type of improvement that I expected out of Bryce. Not the tweaks and small additions. The biggest thing so far seems to be the tree generator. No radiosity and Caustics. At least they could have added that.

No, I see the point that Peter is making... Crack out of the box, terragen puts out better looking terrains than Bryce... Another thing I might mention about Terragen that Peter did not mention is the skies in Terragen... although I love Bryce, one of my main gripes about it is that the skies leave something to be desired... Terragen generates brilliant skies, although not evident from the above picture... Another product that generates beautiful skies is Vue d'Esprit... However, the terrains leave something to be desired... But what Peter is saying is that since Bryce is really older than all these programs, and has had the most professional attention, by now these issues should have been corrected, without tweaking...

See your points tradivoro! - terragen looks cool! - must check it out!, but some 'facts' are wrong pnevai, bryce 4 's highest terrain res is 1024, which more than enough for most uses anyway, but as I also said bryce 5 is 4 times that! - and yes, soft shaows and radiosity are in b5!

I am making this point that Tgen is still free. Bryce will carry a decent size price tag. You could purchase a Digital camara, a 27 inch color TV, DVD player,and other nifty toys for the price of the software. Right now it seems the SW is only giving you features that encourage you to spend more money, SMP, Netwrok rendering. To take advantage of that well how mwny multi processor MAC's are there? How many Mac's support Network rendering on a IP network? I used this comparison to open debate on whether this release that they have used hollywood tactics to launch will be really wrth the entrance price or really more ho and hum. Radiosity and caustics? Well no official source has made mention of it as a matter of fact the lighting tool panel shows nothing for radiosity settings nore caustics. The material editor is even a bigger secret. But seeing that they pertty much kept the rest of the panels the same I do not expect grand changes there either. So it is a wait and see. But with a ship date of july It certainly is strange that the details of this SW are not completely available by now. Corel is certainly not doing it's self a favor.

Unless you are upgrading which will be the price of a 19 inch tv S Even the full price is ony about the price of a 27" tv and a couple bucks. And I agree it could be better and I also agree Corel is not doing itself a favor by being shrouded in secret.

I doubt that the tickler represents all the improvements. Didn't hear a bit about animation so far.

Hardly a bank breaking price for the full or ipgrade now is it!? - One of the great advantages of Bryce as far as I am concerned, is the fact that it carries a hobbyist price tag and offers incredible power - ok its not lightwave/maya/soft image, but then, its not meant to be! - once again, 'true ambience' does that suggest radiosity to anyone!? - just wait and see. What have multi-processing macs got to do with the net render option? - sure may help speed things up, but this feature is to link several machines together with a master/client render process. I agree about Corel not announcing the featurelist accurately, but this will be because some features may not make this version on time. Either way, given the expected release date, there should be more public info by now!!

Krome, To include radiosity, they'd have to rebuild the raytracer...Ambience determines illumination, not light shadows I'm just going to assume the version that's gonna come out is going to be 'Public beta' even though noone will state it as such. I believe that. I bet no longer than a month into the release a major patch will be out. -Matt 3DCommune Moderator http://www.3dcommune.com