Quote - Human beings base every aspect of reason on assumptions.  If as you say, you refuse to make any assumptions (itself an assumtion!), you cannot reason (duh).

Let me think about that one for awhile -- I'll need to consider the implications of the idea that assumptions are the basis of reason.

And how refusing to make assumptions comprises an assumption.........?  I am going to have to assume that these are deep waters......very deep.

some info that may help you consider (if you assume that the linked info is accurate; if you assume you need outside info; if you assume you will not become distracted halfway through considering and begin to consider some other thing; or any number of assumptions that you may refuse to take on):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasoning

oops, ps:

Quote - And how refusing to make assumptions comprises an assumption.........? 

How can you predict that you will refuse to make assumptions?  It is possible that you will make one or many assumptions, you can't assume that you will refuse - unless you do assume such, then everything's okay.

:lol:

I assume that the assumptions that I made back when I assumed them, will be accurately reflected in my future assumptions concerning the matter at hand: whenever I make such an assumption.  Assuming, of course, that our assumptions are worth assuming.

My own assumption is that we are getting just a little bit off of the track here. 

Quote -
Next charge, please.............

Xenophonz, you don't ever have any spelling errors or typos. You need to loosen up some. ;-)

Quote - > Quote -

Next charge, please.............

Xenophonz, you don't ever have any spelling errors or typos. You need to loosen up some. ;-)

What!  I have tons of embarrassing spelling errors and typos.........and after fifteen minutes, I can't edit them out.  G-r-r-r-r-r-r-r.........! 

One assumption that you can't go wrong with: we are all as perfect as any other human being ever born.

I was just thinking, how much of Poser's current woes is do in part to the fact it's always being bought out, but never by anyone major so it never has a chance to have a stable management?

Quote - I was just thinking, how much of Poser's current woes is do in part to the fact it's always being bought out, but never by anyone major so it never has a chance to have a stable management?

That's probably a good point.
But, it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea either. Autodesk recently bought Mudbox and is intending on integrating it into either Maya or 3dsmax, or both, as a module in the program.
I think there will still be a standalone version available, but if they didn't want to do that, they wouldn't have to.
Can you imagine the outcry here if Autodesk were to buy Poser and simply absorb it into max? And if people had to buy max for $3,500 to be able to get at Poser?
Could do wonders for D|S "sales" though. ;-)

Some Posts ago someone mentioned Autodesk as the maker of Maya and 3DStudio. Well, you can better change that in "buyer". I don't think there's much  of a change that Autodesk will buy Poser, because I think they are only interested in "Big Fish", allthough Mudbox  makes me wonder. Mudbox was a very new application, I think  only a year old, when it was bought by autodesk. Poser is on the market for  more then 10 years now, if autodesk ever wanted it , they bought it already, considering the many times it changed owner, so I don't see any reason why they will buy it now.

Bopper.

I think you are right, if Autodesk wanted Poser, they would have bought it some time ago. They could have outbid any of the previous buyers when it was for sale. Or maybe they just felt it wasn't a good investment. Obviously, for whatever reasons, they are not interested in it.

Incidentally, Autodesk is the 'buyer' of Studio Maya.
They are the sole developer of 3ds max for 18 years, since version 2 (that's the 2nd DOS release; not 'R2', which is actually the 6th 3ds Max release). They were just the publisher of the first release.
I used AutoCAD 1.4 (mid 1980s) and that was Autodesk product back then. I think AutoCAD has always been an AutoDesk product, since it's beginning.

I did not say that Autodesk was going to buy Poser.

I very seriously doubt they would do that. They already have Biped, which is far more powerful and versatile than anything Poser has.

It was simply a hypothetical example to show that it's not necessarily a bad thing that Poser remains in the hands of small-time companies - an answer to the post from Wintercalw, i.e.,"I was just thinking, how much of Poser's current woes is do in part to the fact it's always being bought out, but never by anyone major so it never has a chance to have a stable management?"

I still think it seems like a strange career move for Smith-Micro though.

*"to take full advantage of its features will require the end user to have a 64 bit system equipped with sufficient RAM + other, more expensive, high-end applications installed. "
Yes that's the minimun Poser 8 or Pro have to be.
Right now I'm rendering in Poser 7 (32bits :( ) a scee quite big the pz3 ile has around 100MB in a powerfull QuadCore engine using 8GB ram and Poser takes advantage of only 29% of the processors while it takes 3.70Gb of RAM this is what 32bits can understand ..even so..it's taking about 30 min. to finished the full final render (size of the picture is 987X 667 pixels)
Look that's a Quad with SLI GTS 8800 of 512MB each one...but the P..does not care for it..while rendering in VUE 6 Infinite a scene smaller than that (800X600) takes 3 min. Vue uses 100% the Quad processors and about HALF GB of RAM!!! A 64 bits application I must say. So Poser could ONLY BE BETTER if they make it a 64 bits application with that all the bugs will disapear...I bet.
I'll not spend a cent more than today's price for a 64 bits Poser. Since WILL be for sure something we'll get mad about..it's like that since Poser 2 I guess!

Quote - Right now I'm rendering in Poser 7 ... in a powerfull QuadCore... and Poser takes advantage of only 29% of the processors...it's taking about 30 min. to finished the full final render

Do you have your Render processes set us use multiple threads? (general preferences: render tab)  That is supposed to spread the load out to the other processors.

Quote - > Quote -

Show me where I said that SM is "purposefully" publishing an incomplete/misleading feature list, and then I'll buy into what you are saying.  I never said that -- you did.

Next charge, please.............

Self referencing paradoxical  exercises aside
I had Noticed a trend in these "poser pro" threads
where someone reads the OFFICIAL feature list
published by SM and offers a subjective,sometimes emotional, opinion about
weather its a worthwhile expense for them personally
based on what has been reported by SM on their website.
And then you unfailingly say***"shrug*** " and admonish this is a "Risky" endeavour or premature judgement because what they just read on SM's official web site May be "incomplete" at best.

So I shall ill be blunt about it:
I,as a person who has used poser since fractal design poser2
and a person who has investigated nearly EVERY method for getting poser
content into other programs over the years( bryce, LW 7.5,carrara pro4. Shade7, even 3DS Max4 at one brief point and finally settleing on Maxon Cinema4D+IPP and Vue easel)
as a person who $$Bought$$ the old  poser4 propack"hosting"
plugin that was promptly adandoned by CL and recycled as the PEE CEE only "riess" studio plugins. and re-branded yet again as the new"poser fusion' plugins all of which (except IPP)
only "HOSTS" for rendering only and ignores your host  apps native collision dynamics,cloth,and hair systems.

So My I ask you ,Just this once, for some "Wild unfounded speculation"
on your part  as to what amazing new unnanounced features you Suspect SM might still be hiding and planning to "sneak in" in addition to the Published specs
that would prove the cynical "Baahh not impressed for $399" crowd to have
engaged is a "risky" prejudgment??? .

humor me ;-)
 

Quote - > Quote - Right now I'm rendering in Poser 7 ... in a powerfull QuadCore... and Poser takes advantage of only 29% of the processors...it's taking about 30 min. to finished the full final render

Do you have your Render processes set us use multiple threads? (general preferences: render tab)  That is supposed to spread the load out to the other processors.

Poser 7 only divides the work of rendering once, at the start of the render; so if your scene has a bunch of complicated stuff in the top right corner (e.g.) then it will behave like this.  Three cores will drop to idle and 3/4 of your uber quad core processor will sit there and do nothing, while the remainder gimps along on one core until it finishes (which might be hours).  I talked to EF about this shortly after Poser 7 was released and they acknowledged it, and told me no change is planned there until "the next version of Poser", but I expect that will not include the upcoming "Pro" version - certainly it isn't enough to get me to buy it, even if it does make it in.

edit: and comparing to other renderers out there, none of the "big dogs" has such a stupid implementation of multiprocessing; if you are rendering in 4 threads/4 cores, and one finishes earlier, the work is re-divided immediately to keep all 4 cores busy, as much as is practical.

Quote - Poser 7 only divides the work of rendering once, at the start of the render; so if your scene has a bunch of complicated stuff in the top right corner (e.g.) then it will behave like this.  Three cores will drop to idle and 3/4 of your uber quad core processor will sit there and do nothing, while the remainder gimps along on one core until it finishes (which might be hours).  I talked to EF about this shortly after Poser 7 was released and they acknowledged it, and told me no change is planned there until "the next version of Poser", but I expect that will not include the upcoming "Pro" version - certainly it isn't enough to get me to buy it, even if it does make it in.

edit: and comparing to other renderers out there, none of the "big dogs" has such a stupid implementation of multiprocessing; if you are rendering in 4 threads/4 cores, and one finishes earlier, the work is re-divided immediately to keep all 4 cores busy, as much as is practical.

well, i appreciate their incramental progress Poser is making, even if it isn't "fast enough" for some. I also understand they are not keeping up with the "big dogs" who have had a much more stable ownership.

I also note that the fact that Poser can divide the threads at all and the upcomming pro being able to network render, are clear signs that they have been rewriting the code necessary to get Poser where you want it to be.

Quote - Self referencing paradoxical  exercises aside
I had Noticed a trend in these "poser pro" threads
where someone reads the OFFICIAL feature list
published by SM and offers a subjective,sometimes emotional, opinion about
weather its a worthwhile expense for them personally
based on what has been reported by SM on their website.
And then you unfailingly say***"shrug*** " and admonish this is a "Risky" endeavour or premature judgement because what they just read on SM's official web site May be "incomplete" at best.

shrug 

I refer back to my earlier post which was in answer to your original challenge -- but I'll add to it that such "judgments" generally are premature.  Especially when the judgments are wrapped up in emotion and personal biases.

You appear to be misreading & obsessing on my use of the word "risky" earlier on in this thread (please see point on this below).  It's been my observation that new software releases nearly always offer surprises.  Sometimes good surprises, sometimes bad surprises.  I personally hold out hope that the latest round of surprises will be good ones -- but we'll see.

As I've already indicated -- it's perfectly legitimate for people to say that this package doesn't hold any interest for them -- for whatever their personal reasons might be.  Cost too high, posted features not sufficient (or lousy): or they just don't happen to like SM's website color scheme.  Whatever their reasons are -- it doesn't matter.

The problem comes in when the "emotional, subjective" part gets in the way of the "reasoned, logically-thought-out" part.  And that's when people start saying things like: "SM is going to milk this program for everything that they can, and then trash it"; or similar motivational assumptions / accusations against a corporation of which we actually know little -- because they haven't held Poser long enough for us to know them well yet.

Quote - So I shall ill be blunt about it:

Please do.

Quote - I,as a person who has used poser since fractal design poser2
and a person who has investigated nearly EVERY method for getting poser
content into other programs over the years( bryce, LW 7.5,carrara pro4. Shade7, even 3DS Max4 at one brief point and finally settleing on Maxon Cinema4D+IPP and Vue easel)
as a person who $$Bought$$ the old  poser4 propack"hosting"
plugin that was promptly adandoned by CL and recycled as the PEE CEE only "riess" studio plugins. and re-branded yet again as the new"poser fusion' plugins all of which (except IPP)
only "HOSTS" for rendering only and ignores your host  apps native collision dynamics,cloth,and hair systems.

I don't have any problems with what you've said here.  Here it just sounds to me like you've thought it over, and that you've reached a decision on what's best for your own needs / wants concerning this software.  I won't be critical of that.  That's yours to do -- and I wish you well.

But on the other hand, if you'd insisted that SM was planning on trashing Poser because they:

A.  Are greed-heads.
B.  Have personal contempt for their customers.
C.  Are a bunch of corporate sharks out to rule the Poser world & destroy it at the same time.
D.  Are motivated by other (fill in the blank:________) evil / amoral /  Machiavellian motives.

Then I'd have a problem with what you were saying.  But you haven't said that here --

BTW - there's also this: people sometimes assume (that word again!) that a given posting is directed at them, personally -- when it isn't.  Perhaps it's possible to hold an opposing point of view without personal animus being at the root of the disagreement.

Quote - So My I ask you ,Just this once, for some "Wild unfounded speculation"
on your part  as to what amazing new unnanounced features you Suspect SM might still be hiding and planning to "sneak in" in addition to the Published specs
that would prove the cynical "Baahh not impressed for $399" crowd to have
engaged is a "risky" prejudgment??? .

To put the matter politely: I fear that you've missed my earlier points entirely.

The problem with this question is that it's based upon several faulty premises -- one premise being the underlying assumption that I am condemning people over their private interpretation of a pre-listed feature set.  When what i actually said was that to rely upon a pre-published feature list for a new software as being set in stone is risky -- which it most definitely is. 

For the reasons as to why that's risky: please re-read my earlier posts.  I have no desire to go back over territory that we've already covered in some detail.

But I will mention that you appear to be seeing only 1/2 to 1/3 of what I've said -- I clearly stated that the final results of any potential ((as in: not 100% certain that it'll happen that way)) last-minute changes above and beyond the current feature list -- changes which SM might or might not make -- could work out to be either for the better -- or for the worse.  I even stated that the final version of Poser Pro could also (surprise, surprise!) -- match the currently published feature list exactly.  However, the thrust of your question implies that I said that all potential changes to the software would be only positive changes.....which I clearly did not say.  Read my posts.

My point in regards to this all along has been that we won't know which of the three possibilities will come to pass until the event happens -- i.e. until after the software is actually released.

Quote - humor me ;-)

Oh.......I see quite a lot of humor here.  But it's all in good fun. 

Quote - When what actually I said was that to rely upon a pre-published feature list for a new software as being set in stone is risky -- which it most definitely is. 

That's frankly nonsense.  It is extremely, extremely unlikely they're going to "slip in" Global Illumination or some other very desirable feature and not advertise it beforehand.  I mean, unless you're saying SM/EF are a bunch of morons?  They Would Be Very Very Stupid To Not Mention Such A Feature Well In Advance Of The Release For Sale.  It's complicated enough of a programming task that it would take a very significant investment of man hours, and thus it would need to be planned, it's not something a guy accidentally figures out on his lunch break.  It's also a highly valued feature in a renderer, and they would be nuts and/or highly stupid not to advertise it.* *** Ergo, it is not planned.  Where the list of advertised features might be inaccurate is in things that are not included at release time.

I'm so glad I'm not software developer!
No matter what they do, there are always enough unsatisfied people to bitch.
It's a can't win scenario. Hope the guys are getting paid a lot of money. 

Quote - That's frankly nonsense.  It is extremely, extremely unlikely they're going to "slip in" Global Illumination or some other very desirable feature and not advertise it beforehand.  I mean, unless you're saying SM/EF are a bunch of morons?  They Would Be Very Very Stupid To Not Mention Such A Feature Well In Advance Of The Release For Sale.  It's complicated enough of a programming task that it would take a very significant investment of man hours, and thus it would need to be planned, it's not something a guy accidentally figures out on his lunch break.  It's also a highly valued feature in a renderer, and they would be nuts and/or highly stupid not to advertise it.* *** Ergo, it is not planned.  Where the list of advertised features might be inaccurate is in things that are not included at release time.

Uh......who said anything about "slipping in" GI?  I certainly didn't.  Please see my final few paragraphs in the post above.  Perhaps communication is possible -- or at least there's always hope.

Quote - I'm so glad I'm not software developer!
No matter what they do, there are always enough unsatisfied people to bitch.
It's a can't win scenario. Hope the guys are getting paid a lot of money. 

Me, too.

So we agree that it is very, very unlikely that highly valued features that are not on the published feature list will be included then?  Thanks, I thought so.

Quote - So we agree that it is very, very unlikely that highly valued features that are not on the published feature list will be included then?  Thanks, I thought so.

snort :lol:

What I recommend is that you write them a very nasty letter.

What for?

Merely on general principles. 

I ask again, what for?  Are you just following up with random non sequiturs to get the last word or something?

Quote - I ask again, what for?  Are you just following up with random non sequiturs to get the last word or something?

:lol: :lol:  :lol:  :lol: :lol:

Now that's funny!  Thanks!  :biggrin:

I guess you are. 

I know you are, but what am I?  :lol: (again)

Quote - So we agree that it is very, very unlikely that highly valued features that are not on the published feature list will be included then?  Thanks, I thought so."

Quote - I ask again, what for?  Are you just following up with random non sequiturs to get the last word or something?

To clarify for the sake of the literally-minded: you've asked the questions, and you've answered them yourself -- and while it's true that this process involves talking to yourself.......fortunately, it also obviates any need for me to join in the discussion in a serious way.  I fear that I'd be impolitely interrupting the conversation.

There comes a point at which a "discussion" can degrade and become pointless.  Usually because the central point has been missed entirely -- or ignored entirely.  IMO, this line arrived there some time ago.

So, is there a more verbose and snotty way to say "I don't have any response that pertains to this thread"? 

Man I havnt seen these comments before!
And I havnt tryed a 3d app that wasnt bugged and I'm talking all the way from the freeware to the top comercial ones.
The question is something I've often thought of, but isnt going to happen in my lifetime.
ALL 3d apps fail just when you despretly want them not to, in short be prepared to be disapointed folks.
On the up side its cheap enough now for the home user to at least give it a try and hope to be lucky, some are.
BUT back to the origional question, if such a app did exist I'd buy it no matter the co$t, but sadly it doesnt.

It sounds like to me Poser Pro is geared towards the studio. I'm not going to condemn it after arrives and suppose it does stink. I don't care anymore. I'm through with Poser. I bought Poser 7 and I"m not satisfied with it's performance. They sell the company too much. There are other alternatives now and also being developed. I have at least three or four ways to use "poser" content right now. I don't think I'm going to be willing to pay anything at all. Just save my money and buy content when I feel like it. However I will be looking forward to reading all the posts in the forums when it finally arrives just to see if people really like it or not and how useful it is. Quietly because I left the game. Now, I've got to go learn how to use some of the other options available right now and see what kind of potential they have. Later,

Industry standard rigging for better joints.  Poser's joint handling drives me nutso.  I would pay for better joints.  I'm not sure what else I'd be willing to pay for.  A less crash-prone clothroom and hair simulations that work properly, perhaps.  And hair design tools that use dials so you don't have to fight with the interface.  And Python access to the mouse interaction in the 3D preview.  And a morph tool that's less like Amorphium and more like the Wings Tweak tool.  And some kind of built-in .cr2 editor, since so many Poser features require manual tweaks of the files.  Oh, heck.  I want Poser to stop being Poser, don't I?  Hmm.

But anyway, better joints.  That's the big thing.

Yep -- we'll see what Poser Pro will do when it does it.  Until then -- we're sort of confined to.......uh......educated.......guessing.

Quote - ALL 3d apps fail just when you despretly want them not to, in short be prepared to be disapointed folks.

Well.....while I understand what you are saying, I haven't found that to be the case with Modo.  Modo does what it says it will do.......one of the few cases where the hype seems to match the reality.

Modo does what it says it will do.......one of the few cases where the hype seems to match the reality. Just be sure to save before using the Element Move tool on a UV map.

Quote - Just be sure to save before using the Element Move tool on a UV map.

Heh -- there's always a fly in the ointment, eh? 

I would like to have better joints, and I really would like to feed Firefly high order surfaces, NURBS as well as Subdivision Surfaces. GI/Radiosity would be great too.

Poser 7 is not a bad application. I did not ran in a lot of bugs, most features work as designed. But then, I usually don't render scenes close to the memory limit. It's surely nice to have a 64-bit version, especially for big scenes, but I don't see me buying this - because I rarely do big scenes.

Firefly is the render engine I am most familiar with. It has it quirks, some more annoying than others, but it's not THAT slow, the pictures are not THAT bad. IBL isn't radiosity, but it works for me in many, many cases - and it's much faster to render too.

Let's not forget that more advanced features tend to be complicated, and that's not always something the typical Poser user want. We still don't see that much dynamic cloth here, same with strand based hair. If it weren't for BagginsBill, Olivier, face_off and some others, the material room would still be wasted on us - but we can use it, tweak it, works with it. New features would still need other peoples who unlock these features for us.

Would I pay a lot for a new poser? Maybe, if I can use it. But it still needs to be an application made for normal people. They don't should try to catch Maya, at least not before they can make the powerfull features work for people like us. So, no, I don't want a professional Poser. Real Pros will not come down from Maya, Max, XSI and the other full feature products. Firefly cannot really compete with Renderman and Mental Ray. - not in render speed, not in quality - but not in complexity either.

A Poser Pro , that is worth calling "Pro" should be like a polygon version of Animation Master.No need for modelling but mesh editing is a must.Of course not the AM crash attitudes but the animation features like rigging, subdivision surface(as a replacement for Hash patches),UV mapping and much more.Poser should finally get an adult interface , not that sucking "Kai Krause Meta Creation Baby-Toy" Interface . Carrara did it right here.C6 Interface is still Carrara.For a Poser Pro like that ,I am ready to pay up to 500 dollars for an Upgrade.The anounced PoserPro by SM seem to be  just  a fake.PoserPro is nothing more than Poser 7-1/2.

Quote - Yep -- we'll see what Poser Pro will do when it does it.  Until then -- we're sort of confined to.......uh......educated.......guessing.

Or we could just read the officially published
specs bluntly posted by the actual OWNERS of poser themselves and  trust that SM is Not lying ,even by omition,
(I personally believe that PDF is quite honest and what will be featured in the release poser pro is  ALL listed there).

But hey poser is .. what Poser ...is
im just thankfull I dont actually need yet another release since I only use its Structured runtime as a gateway to to send content to Cinema/Vue anyway.

cheers.