Just a tought on that...

Content paradise seem to be the only company offering base characters and i was really wondering why.

I am amazed that no one wants to tap into the base market and compete...

Daz seems to want to become it's whole one in all solution and move slowly away from poser which is a shame....

But besides that you have to wonder ..there is a ton of 3d artists out there basically starving but no one seems inclined to get on the bandwagon to create figures for poser....

If Daz decides to cut away completely from poser,  i can see poser suffer an horrible death because most people use daz for their 3d assets.

Without discounting content paradise which offer good products, daz is the giant in this business and it is gonna end up like crap for the users because of that monopoly....

my 2 cents

Poser has more or less switched owners with every version. DAZ has had what, one change ? From Zygote to DAZ. Is it any wonder they have a better business plan ?

Some things are happening.

There's Apollo. Completely independent from DAZ, and generally regarded as the best male figure around.
There's Project Human. Poser figures as open source.
Sixus1 has human figures.
There's Plain Jane, under development.
Phantom3D here is working on human figures.

And when it comes to bending, Apollo, Plain Jane and the figure by Phantom3D are significantly better than the DAZ figures.

So if DAZ decides to leave Poser users out in the cold (unlikely, Poser users are a large source of DAZ income), there are other figures to work with.

Jerr you sound like you have the right attitude to go start your own business!  The major problem is convincing the buying customer base to try a different standard, and for many people that simply isn't going to happen, but there are always those who are willing to try something different in any new business.

lol thanks pjz99 i guess i remember the days when kupo was running the Poser show and how he and that guy from DAZ used to hang out in this forum actually talking shop with us...

I think a lot of it comes from support. People make figures (and have for years) but there is no support for them and they sort of die.

The other thing most people tend to forget is, this is a highly specialized and relatively small market.  Most people outside of here don't have the faintest clue what we do, how we do it or what we do it for.  Even artists who don't use 3D are sometimes vague on the whole thing.

Bear in mind the closest Mr and Mrs Average get to doing anything even remotely artistic is making Christmas cards from those bloody awful kits on QVC.

Think about it, only a fraction of the populace have any artistic inclination and only a fraction of those are interested in 3D.

Taking all that into account, there ain't really much of a market to be competing for.  DAZ had a very good start, springing fully formed from Zygote, in much the same way as Apollo (the original one) sprang from the brow of Zeus.  Any company wanting to take them on would most likely have to either get some serious cash behind it first, or come into being as a hobbyist offshoot of a pro 3D outfit such as, erm, Zygote or Pixar.

Even then, why would anyone bother?  Since we've all been squawking that Poser is old tech and we want new ways of rigging, detailing etc, who would risk heavy duty investment in competing for a market that seems about ready to change direction?

If you're a wiz at making 3d content you're far better off (financially speaking) working for film, tv or game development. The Poserverse is a parsimonious place. It’s amazing that it has attracted the level of talent that it has.

Quote - If you're a wiz at making 3d content you're far better off (financially speaking) working for film, tv or game development. The Poserverse is a parsimonious place. It’s amazing that it has attracted the level of talent that it has.

Pretty much this... Most people in the poserverse dont realize just how underpriced poser content is. I'm sure we'v all seen those threads where someone mocks a product on a site like TurboSquid or similar. Well guess what, those are standard industry prices (well except for the really crappy products) and are quite comparable to what a modeler or texturer makes in a proper studio. But the poser market isn't like this, here the merchants have to rely solely on volume sales to make up for selling their products at 1/10th of the actual value. The only people who can manage this are those who already have a fan base or have been doing this for years. Which means of course DAZ and a handful of others. The rest find it very hard to break into the market, take a huge risk with every new product and usally find way better outlets for their talents then poser content.

Of course this a great thing for us users, as we get to enjoy high quality products at very low prices. But it does lead to a small amount of variety in what you can get, limited mainly to the usual big boobie women, fantasy stuff 'inspired' from frazetta and vallejo and the occasional toon and/or fantasy creature.

Quote - If you're a wiz at making 3d content you're far better off (financially speaking) working for film, tv or game development.

YES SIR!!
I am a merchant here been so for five years now
But Right now i am self employed FULL TIME as a CG motion graphics artist
I just completed and animation logo lead-in for a film production company here is DC
and Im putting the final touches on  the motion graphics for a two minute movie trailer for a funded independent film release. and I will likely, God Willing,
do the DVD authoring and Print ad Campaign as well.
I Love My "job"

Dont forget the Koshini family over at RDNA :=

Merchant support... I have a runtime full of independent figures such as Rikishi and Satako but the only clothes or textures I have for them are the base sets and base textures and any mods for those I have done myself. I tend to buy any new realistic non-toon figure I can just to support the developer.

The problem is momentum. DAZ has the market presence and can loss lead and over price and do basically anything they want and still command market share. If a new innovation takes off they just assimilate.

The independent developers have to settle on volume sales at low prices like BATLAB to make money. I just am nostalgic for the time before the community got so commercial... imagine what kozoburo or Mr. Maya would have earned if they wanted to? Poser 7 realism is fun but I am not sure I am remotely as productive as I was in all the years I ran Poser 4 and had only one Poser purchase (Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution)  in my runtime.

Quote - The problem is momentum. DAZ has the market presence and can loss lead and over price and do basically anything they want and still command market share. If a new innovation takes off they just assimilate.

In some cases new innovation is stifled because DAZ does not incorporate it.

example:
DAZ, from what I understand, as a policy does not sell items (clothing, hair, etc) that are not made for their figures. If a merchant makes an outfit for Apollo, they must find somewhere else to sell it.

DAZ does not, to the best of my knowledge, produce anything with Poser material collections (MC6 files).

DAZ (itself) has not prouduced any dynamic hair or clothing for use with Poser's dynamics.
DAZ has not prouduced figures with the external morph technolgy (pmd files) in Poser.

DAZ shows almost no intrest supporting or producing products for anything added to Poser since P4 and is even venturing into models that are D|S specific.

overall these things could be seen as good marketing and positioning, but there really isn't any opposition. so the way DAZ does it is how it is done... even if this is only a perception.

Excluding materials collections is pretty poor business practice.  People have become trained to expect MAT poses, and compared to materials collections that is a pretty bad idea - you are not warned when you try to load a MAT pose with invalid material zones, but you are when you load a bad materials collection in the Materails Room.  Good way to introduce crap in your prop or figure and never be able to get it out again easily.

Quote - > Quote - The problem is momentum. DAZ has the market presence and can loss lead and over price and do basically anything they want and still command market share. If a new innovation takes off they just assimilate.

In some cases new innovation is stifled because DAZ does not incorporate it.

example:
DAZ, from what I understand, as a policy does not sell items (clothing, hair, etc) that are not made for their figures. If a merchant makes an outfit for Apollo, they must find somewhere else to sell it.

They have just sold their first add-on to a clothing figure which is not sold at DAZ (but it is by an artist is brokered at DAZ). It may be that they will sell addons to non-DAZ figures via Artzone. They do have a few dynamic clothes products which have both a DAZ figure fit and a CP figure fit. (I have one for V4 and Sidney, and another for some DAZ figure and Miki).

Quote -
DAZ does not, to the best of my knowledge, produce anything with Poser material collections (MC6 files).
[quote]
About a third of their new clothing products (either base or texture) now come with Materials. I would say that a far higher percentage of DAZ products come with MC6 files than RDNA or RMP products.

Quote -
DAZ (itself) has not prouduced any dynamic hair or clothing for use with Poser's dynamics.
[quote]
Not true. If you look at their March Madness sale, several of the dresses come with both a dynamic and a conforming version. They still don't produce a lot of dynamic clothing, but they do have some. I would also say that the percentage of dynamic clothing available at the RMP is heavily skewed by one or two vendords, who produce a lot of dynamic clothing. You are correct about the dyanamic hair though.

Quote -
DAZ has not prouduced figures with the external morph technolgy (pmd files) in Poser.

DAZ shows almost no intrest supporting or producing products for anything added to Poser since P4 and is even venturing into models that are D|S specific.
[quote]
There are only a few DJS specific models. As a matter of fact, I can't think of more than a couple of lightsets. As to nothing past P4, you clearly haven't bought any of the V4 products. Almost all of the V4 character textures have shader trees, in some cases quite extensive ones. Most of the new hairs do as well.

I've conducted a spot check of Platinum Club products, and many of the new ones come with MC6s, and almost all have shader trees. (So it isn't just the brokered artists that are up-to-date.)

The situation at the Renderosity marketplace is not that much different from DAZ. Lots and lots of conforming clothes, most of them for V3 or V4. Almost no dynamic cloth. Hesitantly incorporating P6/P7 material collections. Dynamic hair - almost nothing (kirwyn being the notable exception).

If you want a marketplace that is more geared toward the current Poser technology, CP and RDNA are better choices. Far better support of the EF/CP figures too.

Quote - Just a tought on that...

Content paradise seem to be the only company offering base characters and i was really wondering why.

I am amazed that no one wants to tap into the base market and compete...

I think there's plenty of people whom are trying, and finding it very hard (unprofitable) to compete with DAZ figures' popularity.
It would take a large initial marketing and operating investment to turn the tide and popularize non-daz figures more. One that may take few years before it shows some profit.

CP is off limits to me because any time I try to make a purchase they do something that shuts down my credit card accounts... their security measures some how activate the fraud detection on my cards no matter which one I use!

The reason people avoid dynamic clothes is that the dials are incomprehensible... why could they not have been made using the same scale as parameter dials... basically a -1.00 to +1.00 scale? Percentages I understand, arbitrary scales for parameters that have circular definitions in the manual I do not... unfortunately the only supplemental P7 guide I bought is just a natural language translation of the manual text :(

The real reason I dislike dynamics beyond the fact that my machine chokes on simulations and simulating several items at once is confusing, and that dynamic clothes don't permit real time preview in posing, is that the single layer mesh are high density but have except for one item I have encounter no mesh modeled seams or hems or detailing such as buttons. Trying to set decorative and other simulation features with grouping is a total bummer. I can't stand all the dynamic clothes that look like the edges are cut rather than hemmed.... Might as well download one freebie quicksuit and cut it how I want to myself.

I have only seen one artist who has figured out how to render dynamic hair so it doesn't look composited... it usually just doesn't match the mesh elements on a figure... I would chose hair painted on the texture map and a head morph over dynamic anytime... it looks better and I have a machine that can't manage dynamic hair anyway.

I have no idea what will happen when Daz doesn't support Poser any longer... I can't grasp the D/S interface myself. I guess it will be an opportunity for for a renewed Poser market.

The big thing I see in the market is that there used to be more support  (esp. freebies) for people forced or choosing to work exclusively with the figures and clothing shipped with Poser. Even with Poser 5 there were still a lot of people who worked exclusively with the shipped content and freebies but it seems to me at least that people now have a much harder time working with Poser if they don't have money to purchase Daz and RMP or other store content.

The program and the community started as a kind of hobby DYI freebie-sharing scene and while it has not become a "professional" scene, it has become a very commercial "consumer hobbiest "community... the community used to have prominent members who had never made a single store purchase beyond the initial software package but I don't see that anymore.

I personally look at it this way:

Daz has a sizable library of resources to pull from with both in house creators and brokered artist, Smith-Micro (CP) has gone though so many owners in the last 8 years since I have been using Poser that the store is still around.
I don't rely on any one source for my content, I will buy from Daz, CP, Rosity, and even the other stores. Most of my content I have in my runtimes is free or self created (clothing and some props).  As for Base figures, there are plenty of them to choose from, You have Apollo by Anton, Suzy Q from RNDA, Furrette, Anime Doll by Maya, Ball Joint Doll, Kururu. Some are free some aren't.

The funny thing to me is that Apollo hasn't become the male standard given how people feel about M3. Is it simply that RMP and DAZ are the entry point for most end-users and they just can't make the jump to a FREE superior figure?

Then there is other curious stuff... when I have been flush from time to time I have offered to bank roll someone making a simple prop of "down around the knees or ankle jeans" and a "being pulled over the head T-shirt" with maybe also some decent quality clothes tossed on floor props to the toon of a couple hundred bucks since I suck at Cloth Room -- this would be what? Fifty? A hundred bucks an hour for the people who assure me it would be a few minutes simple work in the Cloth Room? I have said they could either send me morphs for standard P5 or 6 clothes or make a mesh to be freebied or merchandised however the maker wished -- not once has the offer been taken up. Why wouldn't anyone take the commission given the fact that there must be a huge market of "perves" wanting such a thing. I'm broke now but my renders are all "artist's models" who seem to have shown up for work after stashing their clothes in the broom closet or something... I would love to have them dressing and undressing and posing with clothes tossed on a chair nearby to emphasize they represent artist's models. All I can do now is drape a robe over a chair next to the possing platform.

Don't you think a lot of people would want a NVIATWASAHPAHA! Naked Vicky in a Temple With A Sword and Her Pants Around Her Ankles?

Anyway, I do wonder if people aside from me got more art done back in P3 when we had to paint all the hair and clothes in... I still work a fair bit with Millennium 3 content in PoserProPack... the only real hang up is the fact that I can't use subdirectories in my PPP libraries. Maybe I should see if the PX Poser eXplorer content loader script by Dimension3D works with PPP.

Any hypothetical new figures would also have to offer significant improvements / features over the current offerings in order to lure a portion of the Poser-buying base over to them.  "Support this figure because DAZ didn't make it" is a lousy marketing strategy -- but it's a strategy that some fall into the trap of thinking is a good one.  And so: they fail -- and they further compound it by also failing to learn or to admit to the realities of the Poser-related marketplace situation as found.  The marketing ideas of some tend to be informed by their own ideologies about what the majority of Poser-content buyers should want, rather than admitting to harsh reality and bowing to the publics own tastes -- the marketplace-reality no-mercy dictatorship of what the buying public actually does want.  The dictatorship of public taste skewers ideology every time that public taste is challenged on ideological grounds.  People just won't buy stuff that they don't want........or that they don't even like in some cases.

Too many people have too much invested in the DAZ figures to be readily persuaded to look elsewhere.  But if anybody can compete with them, CP (SM) can.  Which might just work out to our (the Poser-buying publics) benefit as the two competitors seek to outdo each other.  I don't have a problem with that.

Without solid corporate backing: a hypothetical lone 3rd-party figure creator will have a tough time of it.  They might create a temporary splash, but it won't last.  BTW - I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against 3rd-party figures -- I have a number of 3rd-party figures in my runtime.  When it comes to available figures: the more the merrier, IMO.  Just don't expect to displace Victoria from her position as Queen of the Figure Mountain.  Or even to come close to doing so.......especially if the intended challenger is a male figure.  If you do harbor such expectations: then you'll be sadly disappointed by the results every-single-time.

BTW -- I'll add that as for thoughts about "more being done back in the day" -- the overall Poser-related marketplace is MUCH larger now than it was back in "the day".......which is a fact that carries its own particular set of realities along with it.  It's not to everyone's liking: but it is what it is.

Quote - Without solid corporate backing: a hypothetical lone 3rd-party figure creator will have a tough time of it.  They might create a temporary splash, but it won't last.  BTW - I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against 3rd-party figures -- I have a number of 3rd-party figures in my runtime.  When it comes to available figures: the more the merrier, IMO.  Just don't expect to displace Victoria from her position as Queen of the Figure Mountain.  Or even to come close to doing so.......especially if the intended challenger is a male figure.

These semi-supportive attitudes crack me up.

anyway.. on another note.

okay, first, there is no reason to compete with Daz. Daz is it's own encapsulated entity, with it's own figures, market, customers, software etc.

There is a false assumption that people have to make a choice when using a figure. This creates competition, which often is less positive than people like to believe. Marketing cliches aside, in the Poser market, figure competition leads to the darker side of business practices.

I don't have an exact amount, but in the year Apollo was for sale, with his few Epic Clothing Packs, I took between $60-$70,000 at both RDNA and then CP.  I think the larger half was at RDNA, because he was there longer. Figures do well when people like them. Period, regardless of if it is at Daz, CP, RDNA, etc.

New companies don't enter Poserdom because, frankly, they are not interested in nickle and dime-ing their way to profit. I say this all the time, and noone ever listens, but the amount of people for buy content on a regular monthly basis is under 7,000; though there are more, that is the constant. People say no, but they have never seen anything any hard data. I have. Over years.

Average brokerages this size float around $65,000 to $110,000 a month.  So these average monthly customers spend around $50 for their monthly purchases. Are there those who brag they spend more? Yes. Are stores glad they do? Yes. But they could all likely attend the same cocktail party. Most people are trading products for promotion, using warez, rendering for free copies, beta testing for free copies, etc, etc etc. And largely forgotten, so many people make content now, they just make their own; utilities aside.

I agree with Ghost of MacBeth. Merchants do not generally support 3rd  party figures; even ones they like. Daz is a hot brand in our community, like Pepsi, or a designer jean. And like kids to with fashion, people gravitate to what is perceived as hot or popular. This can include "3rd party" figure makes, though I would like to remind people that Daz is a "3rd -party" figure maker being they use the Poser file format. But labels aside....

Merchants/companies have to remember that they each have their own ladder to success. Toppling your competition doesn't mean you are good at what you do or a promise of success. But nor does being popular mean you do the best work or will make profit.

Reality is... Prices have dropped for valid reasons. Lack of sales. Despite what people like to believe, a thriving market does not lower it's prices more and more year after year after year.

Poser and Studio file formats going in separate directions is a good thing. Each company isn't particularly fond or interested in the other. Their merchants aren't particularly warm either. And the simple truth is, division is inevitable.

If one or both die off, well, I hate to say it but that would be great. If competition is the only thing making these companies thrive, and yet they are still not getting it right, enough all ready. Let something new evolve from the examples given.

The reality is a profitable anything will survive. Non-profitable commercial ventures will not. But this concept that somehow Poser and Studio are on the same ladder to success is false. Each has their own path.

But, and this is most important.......  Neither company really even makes it's own content anymore. And yet now, merchants are tossed pennies to buy ready product that took weeks to make. Sad sad sad. The market has become a sweatshop for some, partly because they refuse to leave and party because they are haggled down to below minimum-wage rates.

Another larger issue, for merchants at least, is that many of the smaller store are run by people who, dare I say, might be described as insane. Store are regularly deleted without notice, inner strife, produce or be punished tactics, endless sign-ff threads, inappropriate agreements and restrictions, etc. Though I don't personally see how the behaviour of the larger brokerages differs from the smaller ones, people this at least they will make more money there, which is what it is all really about.

I am fortunate that I didn't need Poser brokering to survive, but many people use their brokering income to supplement income. I don't mean this as a disrespectful, but come on, many of us know that the current  customer base profile has largely become people on disability, retirement, and other fixed incomes.

And finally to the point. I am sorry. lol. I never get this chatty.

If there was a point to competing with Daz, or Poser, someone would have by now. They, like many merchants, find it easier to stick with what is familiar.  Sort of like when someone doesn't want to get out of the tub when the water get cold.

Cheers,
Anton, a hypothetical lone 3rd-party figure creator of a male figure. lol

That was one hell of an interesting read Anton.
Can I ask on a personal level what the future holds for you in the 3D content world? I understand your workings with Apollo 2008 but do you have any plans after that?

Hey there,

3D is really a hobby now. I think I had the most success in Poserdom someone can have. And for that I am very grateful and it was a fun ride.

Quote - especially if the intended challenger is a male figure.  If you do harbor such expectations: then you'll be sadly disappointed by the results every-single-time.

Just curious, does anyone know what percentage of sales M3 took compared to V3? If Daz made a spectacular M4 would he still not sell well, I guess what I'm asking is what's the main reason why male figures don't sell well? Surely it can''t be as simple as most people like doing pinups with the Vickies!

Quote - And finally to the point. I am sorry. lol. I never get this chatty.

It's the tequila.

I hope Daz does move away Poser.

I hate their high priced over bloated figures.

Quote - I guess what I'm asking is what's the main reason why male figures don't sell well? Surely it can''t be as simple as most people like doing pinups with the Vickies!

Why not? Our market is almost soley about fantasy. And let's admit, mostly erotic fantasy; both passive and blatant.

-Stright men render the women they want.... well you know the type.
-Stright women render the women they want to be.... princesses, soft/petite, enticing , youthful, thin.

with exceptions, of course.

Male figures compete mostly within the gay male Poser community, which is massive, but still a smaller part. Other than that, male figures are used mostly used for story telling purposes. I think males are more popular in the comic genre.

Quote - These semi-supportive attitudes crack me up.

Eh?  "Supportive" -- in any specific direction -- wasn't the intent.  The intent was to point out a few realities.

Some items sell.......others sell........while still others SELL.

Also......the overall market gets bigger & more successful = the prices generally go down.  That's what Wal Mart does.  And Wal Mart is a MUCH larger company (and makes a lot more money) than Macy's does.  Wal Mart defines "success" as a business: which is a part of the reason why some people hate it so much -- it doesn't adhere to the correct ideology.

BTW - in spite of what some people think -- prices going up-up-up is generally a symptom of an unhealthy economy.  Not of a healthy one.

Quote - male figures are used mostly used for story telling purposes. I think males are more popular in the comic genre.

That's what I use them for.

When I first got into 3D a couple of years ago I just presumed the male figures would sell well with the female users & those doing sci-fi etc.
I guess I'm a typical male who primarily renders women, I just didn't think the gulf would be so big.

Quote - Also......the overall market gets bigger & more successful = the prices generally go down.  That's what Wal Mart does.  And Wal Mart is a MUCH larger company (and makes a lot more money) than Macy's does.  Wal Mart defines "success" as a business: which is a part of the reason why some people hate it so much -- it doesn't adhere to the correct ideology.

BTW - in spite of what some people think -- prices going up-up-up is generally a symptom of an unhealthy economy.  Not of a healthy one.

I am sorry. You are wrong; at least in this market. I understand though. I see how what you are saying seems to makes sense and should be true. But it isn't . So many people want this to be true in our market. But it isn't.  It just adds to the problem. 

-If CP was booming, ef wouldn't have sold it.
-If Poser Pros was successful, it wouldn't have been closed.
-If Rendo didn't have a propblem with items not selling one piece over months, there would be no warehouse.
-If the market was really growing, we wouldn't all be staring at all our own same faces in the forums everyday.
-If Daz items were so lucrative, they would go pack to paying thousands for "Daz Originals" oppose to a couple hundred.
-If The market was diverse, Renderosity and Daz wouldn't have the exact same charts on Alexa.(across years)
etc
etc.

The current problem is denial vs. what is real. One is encourage. The other concealed.

You talk about reality, accepting it, and having realistic expectations. Many do. I just don't see people taking their own advice.

*Quote: If Daz made a spectacular M4 would he still not sell well,

Judging by what one regularly sees in the Poser gallery I would say it would be unlikely. Somehow the notion that only female-centric images are worth viewing took hold in the gallery a long while ago and nothing has changed much in that regards.

It's a pity though. As a vendor I would have liked to make more products for male characters and especially for a new (M4) male character but to do so is always at a loss.

I guess men have only themselves to blame for failing to be a fit subject for 'art' :)

• Rick

Quote - -If CP was booming, ef wouldn;t have sold it.

Why not?  Successful companies often get sold.  It's called profit-taking.

Quote - -If Poser Pros was successful, it wouldn't have been closed.

I won't argue that one with you.

Quote - -If Rendo didn't have a propblem with not one pices selling over monthy, there would be no warehouse.

Clearing out old / non-selling stock is something that businesses -- successful businesses -- do on a regular basis.

Quote - -If the market was really growing, we wouldn't all be staring at all our own same faces in the forums everyday.

Whatever happens in the forums is only incidental to what actually sells in the MP.  Many of the "loudest" items in the forums are actually small potatoes in the overall MP.  That's not always true -- but it often is.

Quote - -If Daz items were so lucrative, they would go pack to paying thousands for "Daz Originals" oppose to a couple hundred.

That one I can't address directly, not having any personal access to DAZ's books -- but I will point out that DAZ seems to be in a buying mood recently.  At least when it comes to software.

Quote - You talk about reality, accepting it, and having realistic expectations. Many do. I just don't see people taking their own advice.

True, true. 

BTW - I'd say that when it comes to prices & their relationship to the overall health of a given market........as in so many other things: balance & stability is the key.  In an open market, things tend to find their own natural level.

Those on disability can only afford to pay just so much.  If that's your target demographic -- then you have to tailor your price structure accordingly.  Otherwise, you'll need to find a new demographic.

We get all sorts in here.  Not just one flavor, or one economic strata.  Many are even institutions, organizations and companies -- not just individual users.  So we have items that fit one type of budget, and items which fit another.  It's all good, IMO.  But that's just my opinion.  :biggrin:

I think it's a weird market all the way around. Frankly at times it pisses me off too. Why? Well, I spend a pile of money for some content and add-ons for it let's say a figure and later the same thing is half price or free a few months later. Now that encourages the heck out me to spend money. Same with the software. I buy it right out of the gate and upgrade and less than a year later they're running specials or giving it away with the purchase of something else. The only advantage I get is getting to play with it sooner than those who waited, but they get it for next to nothing compaired to what I payed for it. Then there is Poser 7 that needed updates or something dang it, but EF sold out and right before the release of a new version. Seriously, this market is killing itself. byAnton why do you give Apollo away for free? If it's all about making money?

You've probably answered that before, but I never heard it.

dogor,

That was interesting, Anton. :)  I am always glad to hear what you have to say.

I am a perennial end-user but between being here a while (pre18 Apr 2000 - 3409 posts) and being nosey and one of those people who loves "beta testing for free copies" people do ask me about this or that regarding selling stuff. I have no idea of sales numbers other than my own old  Y2K numbers and my numbers for sex themed stuff I was recruited to make under a pseudonym but I always tell people the same thing if they ask: *

Never make anything for the market no matter how innovative or wonderful you think it is... the grief and ego twisting just isn't worth it.

Make what you like for yourself and if you must sell it instead of giving it away choose a nice low price that will make people love you -- see BATLAB, BVH, Kobomax, 9MBI, etc. Treat any income as a welcome surprise you can squander on other content. The only people I actually encourage to sell stuff seriously are people who live in countries where the per capita income is below USD$4,500.00 per year.

I will admit I put some stuff in the market after maintaining my relatively large freebie site became too expensive. My intent was to keep the stuff available since I was giving up internet services altogether for a couple years. I made a few thousand bucks a year the first couple years for stuff priced low by the standard of the day but as soon as my income dropped below $500 or so a month I made the ideological decision to support other vendors by spending every last cent of store income on Poser content. 232 RMP orders and probably another hundred at stores like PoserPros, RDNA and Netherworks, QrafFX and other small or one-vendor stores and PayPal donations to Freebie providers... I sure as hell don't want to know what the total was but I am glad to have done my bit even though I am now among the retired and disabled crowd.

Non-artists don't ever realize that it is easier to sell a painting for $30K than $300 and a surprising number of people seem to expect to become well loved Poser vendors who clear $50 per hour of development time but in this market clearing a few hundred dollars for a project sold at under $10 a unit is doing pretty well as far as I can tell. I don't know how often people who do other sorts of crafts are able to quit their day jobs but it doesn't seem to me to be realistic to think you can earn from a Poser project what you would from a decent commercial art freelance gig, thousands, instead of what would be more  reasonable, to  expect from it what you would make selling art at a crafts bizzar (hundreds) and just figure you have used the market to distribute your stuff with no out of pocket overhead and with the bonus of maybe being able to clear your store wishlist.

It saddens me how many amazing Poser products (see I have to call them products now instead of say artworks) are buried because people can't accept they wont be "properly" compensated for them so instead of putting them in Freestuff they let them sit on the hard drive until they slip into obsolescence (man I wish I could afford to buy Traveler's Aurora!), and how many great products make no sales because they end up booted for low sales because of prices that don't acknowledge the market reality of the $9 glass ceiling (I tend to shop only clearance now).

Anton, I am impressed by the choice you made with Apollo. I wonder what you think of it? I imagine the karma and self-esteem have been worth something to you.

BTW, no joke, I would say that 90% of the Poser users that I have become intimate enough to discuss personal matters have disclosed to me they were either crippled or disabled by clinical depression :)

Quote - I think it's a weird market all the way around. Frankly at times it pisses me off too. Why? Well, I spend a pile of money for some content and add-ons for it let's say a figure and later the same thing is half price or free a few months later. Now that encourages the heck out me to spend money. Same with the software. I buy it right out of the gate and upgrade and less than a year later they're running specials or giving it away with the purchase of something else. The only advantage I get is getting to play with it sooner than those who waited, but they get it for next to nothing compaired to what I payed for it. Then there is Poser 7 that needed updates or something dang it, but EF sold out and right before the release of a new version. Seriously, this market is killing itself. byAnton why do you give Apollo away for free? If it's all about making money?

You've probably answered that before, but I never heard it.

I retired Apollo because stores kept trying to use him as a pawn/point of leverage to force me to make content, compromise my ethics, or as just a simple tool to control what I said or did. This is never going to happen. So I retired him after Renderosity recinded a half dozen invitations to move him to Renderosity.

They first approached me in 2005 and kept asking ever after. So first I took Apollo off of CP after an accounting dispute. During that transition, Rendo recinded it's offer after I filed a claim of copyright infringement against a supposed broker here.

At that point I was just fed up. I was more annoyed than angry, but sort of thought, "Their loss".

I made Apollo free, because I was always getting email asking for him to be made available. I thought it would be a nice gesture for merchants and people who like male figures. And I am happy to do it.

Originally I was just going to re-release the 2006 version, but I started playing around with old ideas, and it sort of snowballed.

I could have sold him again, but thought making him free would be more fun after such a good run.

Good for you!

That was dang generous to the community. Thanks for sharing.

dogor,

Quote - I could have sold him again, but thought making him free would be more fun after such a good run.

Hats off to you Anton. I don't know of many people who would have done the same thing knowing they could have made a small fortune selling him.
We are grateful for sure.

Hey thanks. I am happy to do it. I always beleived that sappy stuff like "One person can make a difference" and all that stuff. If it isn't fun, it isn't worth it.

momodot,

I love every word of your post. I was going to quote it, but just surfice to say I agree. I think this market is now great for those learning, enjoying or interested in part time fun for part time pay.

Quote - I don't have an exact amount, but in the year Apollo was for sale, with his few Epic Clothing Packs, I took between $60-$70,000 at both RDNA and then CP.  I think the larger half was at RDNA, because he was there longer.

All the more astounding is your generosity in giving him away free afterward.  I have said this before, but you are a great man Anton.

Hi Everyone

Even when one sells a 3d figure at Poser market prices it can be considered " giving it away "
Check out the links http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/139153
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/248996

Jeez, who would pay that price when you can get better for less!

It's very refreshing to hear your views Anton, I appreciate your sharing some background too. Getting to know who you are, and am happy for it.

With all this said I would be interested in any views about something I read today in regards to DAZ studio, I bring this up because I think it is possibly a defining point between DAZ and Poser. I read that DAZ has joined forces with Mogware, bringing a connection interface between DAZ and the gaming world...which in my opinion is going to be the difference that will seperate these 2 companies. Personally, I see the gaming world loosening it's biased view of Poser/DAZ content and opening itself up to the thought of, "Why reinvent the wheel everyday?" (ie; why create a model from scratch when we have perfectly good figures here to use as a base and go from there). I'm certain the rigging will ultimately be the sticking point but somebody has to figure that out sooner or later, or improve...and it needs it!

I just thought that this area of the market has been ripe for the picking (as most of the content I create is game oriented) and I was surprised to see DAZ hit the mark first.
Thoughts?

Hey I lke this one.
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm?id=251252

Quote - It's very refreshing to hear your views Anton, I appreciate your sharing some background too. Getting to know who you are, and am happy for it.

With all this said I would be interested in any views about something I read today in regards to DAZ studio, I bring this up because I think it is possibly a defining point between DAZ and Poser. I read that DAZ has joined forces with Mogware, bringing a connection interface between DAZ and the gaming world...which in my opinion is going to be the difference that will seperate these 2 companies. Personally, I see the gaming world loosening it's biased view of Poser/DAZ content and opening itself up to the thought of, "Why reinvent the wheel everyday?" (ie; why create a model from scratch when we have perfectly good figures here to use as a base and go from there). I'm certain the rigging will ultimately be the sticking point but somebody has to figure that out sooner or later, or improve...and it needs it!

I just thought that this area of the market has been ripe for the picking (as most of the content I create is game oriented) and I was surprised to see DAZ hit the mark first.
Thoughts?

I know it sounds cool, but I really don't see that there are thousands and thousands of people interested. Most gamers make their own stuff or hire people. Many use Poser for previewing, but I can't imagine this would really go anywhere. But it would be interesting to see.

You have to keep in mind that Daz is all about "the latest project". All those people have to do something everyday. I don't want to sound unkind, but their past projects never really go anywhere. I can think of a few not commonly known, but some people may remember.

-You guys know about that DIck VanDyke book. It is a shame that is what it ended up as instead of a TV special.
-The Anna Marie Goddard thing and some associated TV press never panned out a industry phenomenon. I think she posted once or a coupel times and quiety backed away from the whole thing..
-Not sure how the Ligtwave networking ever panned out.
-They owned that clipart site that I can;t remeber the name of.
-Mimic and Bryce have sort of run their course, with the dev team not working out. Probably to divert salaries back into the company.

I love video games. L_O_V_E   T_H_E_M!!!!! lol But the joy and fun and allure of video games is to create. People want to make stuff.

I just don't see anything coming of this; at least not at this time. I think this is just in a long line of cross-company marketing campaigns to create visibility. Was there a press release yet? I dunno, this one will be interesting. I just don't know how well they are currently respected or trusted in the industry. What is the next version isn;t compatible and it takes 6 months to fix it?

I would love to get some of my provate Poser figures into a sim-like or second life-type enviornment. That would be so much fun. I love the idea of Apolo figures into provate worlds oppose to video games.

Hi Anton

Thanks for the advice.   When one considers the time and resources spent on creating a 3d figure for Poser,  70,000 is barely breaking even.

BTW everyone the figures you see in your video games,  they're exclusives.  Their price range is 3000 to 5000 plus royalties. 

Quote - Hi Anton

Thanks for the advice.   When one considers the time and resources spent on creating a 3d figure for Poser,  70,000 is barely breaking even. 

Oh and that is before taxes, which people better be paying because all these stores are submitting these records to the IRS, Daz especially.

Yeah, I was happy but it isn't viable in 2008 with heating oil at $3.50 a gallon.  My house oil bill is $950/month this winter. It is shocking.

*Yeah, I was happy but it isn't viable in 2008 with heating oil at $3.50 a gallon.  My house oil bill is $950/month this winter. It is shocking.

*I believe it.  Mine was $700+.  I'm glad you are sharing this information.  For me it's a relief to hear the truth about the Poser market.  Kind of puts things in perspective.