Quote - Well if you read the DAZ threads on TC2 you'll find that apparently nobody believes that there are "CopyBots" that can capture any texture uploaded to the SL servers. Maybe someone needs to provide links to the proof that those bots exist.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Help:CopyBot

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/16/copybot-action/

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/14/use-of-copybot-and-similar-tools-a-tos-violation/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CopyBot

http://theory.isthereason.com/?p=1388

Quote - Maybe it would be a good idea to add a new paragraph to the license stating that converting a texture purchased in the Renderosity Market Place for use in SL is a violation of copyright and not permitted.

Not specific to Second Life or Renderosity - regardless of where you got it, regardless of where you want to transmit it, if you didn't make a texture or a model completely from scratch, then it's a violation of copyright.  There are very few people who can use that texture converter utility legitimately for Second Life (or any other game or whatever), and those people, well, they wouldn't need automation to do this would they?  they could just as well make their own texture and do a better job.

Does daz consider 3rd party textures of their mil figures to be derivatives?

Pretty obviously they don't and they never have...

Quote - Does daz consider 3rd party textures of their mil figures to be derivatives?

uh no.  textures are usually done using the daz supplied (or snowsultans) texture seam guides.

making a texture is not dirivitive.  converting a daz texture and sending anywhere would just be a straight violation.  a dirivitive would be adding tatoo's to a texture and saying that it was yours when the base is Daz, something completly different.

now that there is a tatoo plugin for texture converter I'm sure a lot of the tatoo flash sites are gunna start getting involved, there have already been a couple of figure textures with copyrighted tatoo's used and the products pulled cause of copyright.

gunna be fun watching this all unfold.

restocking the Pitchforks and Torches.... FRED! MORE POPCORN!.....I'll have the new batch of TeeShirts ready by 5....damnit.. we're out of dead horses and beer.......grabs phone

Quote - > **Quote - ON ITS FACE **this endorses and encourages violation of copyright.  "Your favorite Poser textures" are copyrighted material, and this kind of use is very plainly illegal.

any way you look at it its infringements galore. even if the person converting it for Second Life is not selling it and is only doing it for personal use, once it is in Second Life it is easily available to anyone that 'sees' your avatar ingame: there are copy bots widely available that harvest SL content.

this is against the Poser EULAs. i cant believe that
a) 3D Universe created this bullshit
b) Daz is actually selling it, knowing what will result (theyre not stupid)

They are probably betting that no one is using the CP textures to begin with.  However wouldn't people be using this to steal the new daz elite textures instead?  I'm surprised that the non-daz merchants who sell textures at daz are putting up with this. 

*uh no.  textures are usually done using the daz supplied (or snowsultans) texture seam guides.

making a texture is not dirivitive.  converting a daz texture and sending anywhere would just be a straight violation.  a dirivitive would be adding tatoo's to a texture and saying that it was yours when the base is Daz, something completly different.

now that there is a tatoo plugin for texture converter I'm sure a lot of the tatoo flash sites are gunna start getting involved, there have already been a couple of figure textures with copyrighted tatoo's used and the products pulled cause of copyright.

gunna be fun watching this all unfold.

Then I take it Textures are not derivitives,  good. 

See the reason I have asked that question is daz has never really given a black and white answer on their meaning of derivitive.

Well now, im glad that the folks here UTTERLY dissagree with this damned bull from DAZ.
It has p**sed me off. You know what reply i had from several people over there,  TOUGH, we brought the textures we can do what we like with them oh i dont sell here no more BTW, used too, sell else where now

This second life bullcr*p is just the start, actually IMVU is just as bad, using models/textures etc etc found my older stuff being SOLD there WITHOUT permission or even credit to me, i got no money from it

I will be from now on adding a clause to my readme's about NOT using texture's in Second Life/IMVU or any other chat/gaming program!

Man, this has seriulosly p**sed a lot of people off!

This second life bullcrp is just the start,

You are absolutely right.  In 2009 daz is going to start pumping poser models into video games.  Think of it... all those gorgeuos mil figure derivitives ending up in video games.

BTW video games are a 9 billion dollar a year industry.

yup so, ive actually had one of my characters i specifically done textures used in a game, WITH MY PERMISSION! and i got paid for it. And im a hardcore gamer, i know all about the industry, luv, i beta and alpha test all the time for a LOT of games!

What you dont understand is that when people like BlackHearted or Rebelmommy have there characters used and stolen textures and sometimes morphs and used else where with out permission, those people who are doing it are breaking the law. IMVU does this all the freakin time, buying say 3Dreams hairs, converting them for the IMVU chat base and then reselling it... so really are you saying its OK for people to steal and do this?

*so really are you saying its OK for people to steal and do this?

Choose your words carefully...No where did I say that.  I'm warning people here of what's coming.

Sorry im half a bloody asleep, not damned coffee in the house, i wanna eat someones ear off... yawns please excuse my abrubtness, thats me, say a small wee thing and i go king kong ooo er missus

I know whats coming, um its been coming for the past, its happened, just like P2P , its spreads like a virus, i may hate computers, and i may beta/alpha for certain games, but i really hate this technological era we are in give me a sword, chainmaile, and a war horse any day over this poop

.... i need coffee.... NURSE...

Apology accepted.

Here's an excerpt from an e mail I sent to a friend a month ago.

[ Explanation] See,  when I posted WIP Jane a few people wanted a low poly version of her.  It got my curiosity up.  So I posted her over at cgsociety. http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=43&t=540734&highlight=patorak
After the replies I got,  I realized why some people in poserdom want a 10k polycount figure.
They want it for video game developement.

I thought how can they get poser content in video games.  Then I saw the fbx plug-in for Daz Studio.  Fbx is autodesk's universal file format.  Anything in fbx can be ported between the high end apps.  The high end apps are needed for video game animation,  surfacing,  and rendering.

It dawned on me,  Daz is creating a pipeline to get poser content into video games.  My suspicions were confirmed when Mogware annouced it's partnership with Daz.  Here's the link.  http://www.mogware.com/

At first I thought this is great.  Then I thought about Daz's millenium figures EULA.  Specifically this in the EULA

*6. OTHER RESTRICTIONS. This Agreement is your proof of License to exercise the rights granted herein and must be retained by you. User shall not give, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer or dispose of the 3-D Model(s) on a temporary or permanent basis without the prior written consent of DAZ. DAZ'S 3-D Model(s) and/or contracts are non-transferable and shall only be used by the Licensed User. User may not reverse engineer, de-compile, disassemble, or create derivative works from the 3-D Model(s). These restrictions do not pertain to rendered images or pre-rendered animations.

Then I thought of this.  It's from the devkit

*NOTE:
As with all DAZ products, derivative works are allowed for the creation of complimentary add-on products, but not for the creation of competitive products that do not require the original work. In this case, the "V4 Dev Foundation.cr2" file cannot be used to create any product that competes with Victoria 4 herself, or any of the other stand-alone items DAZ produces. Likewise, any products derived from this file ("V4 Dev Foundation.cr2") cannot be further modified such that they compete with said DAZ items.

Daz considers add on products as special permission derivatives.  derivatives all the same though.

How does it benefit Daz to do this?  The video gaming industry is a 9 billion dollar a year industry.  It's also one of the industries that's doing very good in our depressed economy.  Currently an exclusive figure for video game developement sells for $3000 and up plus 1% to 5% royalties.  Imagine Daz taking all those derivatives of the millenium figures,  pennies on the dollar,  and placing them in video games.  All the while daz sitting fat and sassy enjoying their 1000% or more profit margin.
 

Well, i knew DAZ was a fat cat, but damn not this FAT! Eh well, just goes to show HOW outta the poser loop i am now a days its to clicky for me, and i just cant STAND it
there was already a poser game, um it was here, very nice too, a fighting game may of been two but there no longer sold, god damn it what was it called... Anyhoo, hubby laughed and said "Im not suprised one bit"...

Hot damn, ill be glad when i no longer do poser and do my REAL first love, clay work grins oh and fixing bikes! biker girls ROCK!

Yep!  It's gonna get ugly.

Further on in the letter I suggest that one should create their own figure and fit all their products (clothes,  hair,  shoes,  morphs,  and textures) to it.  That way daz can't claim them as a derivitives.

Here's the link to a good figure creation video.  http://www.vuze.com/details/3P545OC2J2DPF53ZZ5W2N4FF6NRMS5F2.html?a=SWEEK&cat=l10&ch=X&cs=X&ct=SMOVIE&page=Scontent%2FBucketBrowse&pb=X&pg=1&pr=X&s=S&st=SAZHOT&t=X&vt=1

Or one adds to their read me a clause for video game usage and royalties there of.

Quote - Daz considers add on products as special permission derivatives.  derivatives all the same though.

DAZ can consider it the Queen of England but it still does not give them exclusive rights over third-party textures, which is what you seem to be getting at.  There's nearly a decade of precedent that is all a matter of public record where they've dealt with 3rd party textures as not being "derivative works".  I think it's pretty obvious that DAZ does not consider textures for their models to be in that category - this is how Renderosity makes its money after all - but even if they suddenly reversed themselves and declared all textures and shaders and whatnot to be derivative works, at most they could require the texture artists to cease and desist selling, they couldn't hijack the stuff and run off with it willy-nilly.

Quote - Well now, im glad that the folks here UTTERLY dissagree with this damned bull from DAZ.
It has p**sed me off. You know what reply i had from several people over there,  TOUGH, we brought the textures we can do what we like with them oh i dont sell here no more BTW, used too, sell else where now

This second life bullcr*p is just the start, actually IMVU is just as bad, using models/textures etc etc found my older stuff being SOLD there WITHOUT permission or even credit to me, i got no money from it

I will be from now on adding a clause to my readme's about NOT using texture's in Second Life/IMVU or any other chat/gaming program!

Man, this has seriulosly p**sed a lot of people off!

I am already adding second life TOS terms to my 2D work, no way am I allowing them to take bits piece, the whole works and using and selling them for any reason.

Daz has marbles in its head if they think they can get away with this one.

*but even if they suddenly reversed themselves and declared all textures and shaders and whatnot to be derivative works, at most they could require the texture artists to cease and desist selling, they couldn't hijack the stuff and run off with it willy-nilly.

*Hmmm...  Then why are they selling a program that allows mil figure textures to be converted to SL avatars?

*It dawned on me,  Daz is creating a pipeline to get poser content into video games.

*Here's another proof for that: The new textureconverter 2, released yesterday at DAZ has a second-life plug-in so can convert any  V4, V3,M3 etc. texture into a second-life texture.

best regards,

Bopper.

Quote - *It dawned on me,  Daz is creating a pipeline to get poser content into video games.

*Here's another proof for that: The new textureconverter 2, released yesterday at DAZ has a second-life plug-in so can convert any  V4, V3,M3 etc. texture into a second-life texture.

best regards,

Bopper.

erm Bopper? read back a bit... your're a tad late... and behind on the coming shitstorm...

Quote - youve gotta be fucking kidding me.
its not bad enough that people are stealing it on their own, we have to make it even easier for them?

but its more money in daz's coffers so its all good, right?

Good you said it for me, even my husband who has nothing to do with the 3D or 2D world is livid.

Said how come daz gets to decide a texture from another merchants is their copyright and they can offer it up to SL for sale and distribution. I am saying it again Daz has rocks in their head if they think there will not be trouble over this. 

And as for SL, jesus those guys need a damn life, some of those characters and stuff created is below quality and looks like a person with no talent completely made them.

I have already removed one account from them due to my textures being sold from CP.
Fool thought I would let him get away with it.  By the way the company did nothing to help me, they are as dodge as a encyclopedia salesman over their.

Quote - Hmmm...  Then why are they selling a program that allows mil figure textures to be converted to SL avatars?

I didn't say they were smart, I said they're not entitled to exclusive rights to work for which they don't hold the copyright for.  Even if a case could be made that textures are derivative works - which again, I don't think they're trying to do - that doesn't mean they can grab any derivative works and sell them for their own profit.  While copyright law does protect the original copyright holder, it is not a blank check to do whatever you want in a case where there is an actual infringement.

I think this is just an example of DAZ not thinking things through - probably the best to expect is for them to put some disclaimer language on the sell page.  It's not as if there weren't other tools out there that do similar things, just this one practically screams "abuse me".

you guys are missing something:

“…you understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the service, you automatically grant (and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant) to Linden Lab: (a) a royalty-free, worldwide, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to (i) use, reproduce and distribute your Content within the Service as permitted by you through your interactions on the Service, and (ii) use and reproduce (and to authorize third parties to use and reproduce) any of your Content in any or all media for marketing and/or promotional purposes in connection with the Service;”*"

*the above basically means that basically the only legitimate use of the texture converter is a merchant converting their own textures for use in SL.
uploading an avatar skin to SL is basically giving Linden Labs a royalty free license to do whatever they like with that texture.
now guess what? when you buy a texture at renderosity, or daz, you do not have that right to give.

meaning that uploading your converted texture to SL is no different than uploading it to a warez site.*

the whole 'derivatives' issue is just another angle. that is debatable, this isnt. unless the merchant you purchased the texture from gave you permission to distribute it through second life, this is against the product EULA.

erm Bopper? read back a bit... your're a tad late... and behind on the coming shitstorm...

Duh, I realised that when I saw your post, I  think I had too little sleep last, trying to get the damn texture converter too work. Typical a DAZ release: it only worked correct after 2 updates, the first installation didn't work at all.
Didn't buy the second-life plug-in because I never had any interest in a  second life.

Bopper.

they cannot claim it as a derivative.

simple making a texture compatible with an existing character's UV template does not make that texture a derivative of the character.
nor does modeling clothing that fits a figure make it a derivative and the property of the figure creator. that entire line of reasoning is absurd. if that were the case, all daz products would be the property of Smith Micro right now.

aside from that, keep in mind that the reason Daz is in the position it is now is because of the add-on creators creating hundreds of thousands of add-on items and freebies for their products ever since Vicky 1. Vicky, Mike, etc would be absolutely nowhere if it was just Daz in-house supporting them for the last decade. so aside from the fact that it wouldnt fly in court for a heartbeat, if they started claiming all V4 clothing and textures were derivatives of Daz products they would alienate all add-on creators and theyd take a massive loss.

Has anyone started a thread about this at DAZ? because its something that should be brought up

*they cannot claim it as a derivative.

simple making a texture compatible with an existing character's UV template does not make that texture a derivative of the character.
nor does modeling clothing that fits a figure make it a derivative and the property of the figure creator. that entire line of reasoning is absurd. if that were the case, all daz products would be the property of Smith Micro right now.

aside from that, keep in mind that the reason Daz is in the position it is now is because of the add-on creators creating hundreds of thousands of add-on items and freebies for their products ever since Vicky 1. Vicky, Mike, etc would be absolutely nowhere if it was just Daz in-house supporting them for the last decade. so aside from the fact that it wouldnt fly in court for a heartbeat, if they started claiming all V4 clothing and textures were derivatives of Daz products they would alienate all add-on creators and theyd take a massive loss.

OK first of all I'm just trying to help people protect their work.  Vendor eulas need to be re written to include video game usage and royalties.

Second,  nothing is absurd when it comes to making a profit in business.  Daz could easily sink the poser market and enter the video game market.

Quote - OK first of all I'm just trying to help people protect their work.  Vendor eulas need to be re written to include video game usage and royalties.

They don't NEED to be re-written, because ignorance of copyright law is not a defense in the case of infringement - but it wouldn't hurt.

Information about copyright law in the US (which follows the Bern convention):

http://copyright.gov/

patorak - i understand youre trying to help, but try and understand that making statements such as 'daz can claim all V4 textures as derivatives' is incensing to all add-on creators.

and yes, im in total agreement with you about revising the EULAs to be even clearer to people in these new markets that Daz is plunging us into against our will.

either way the SL issue is pretty cut and dry. you are violating both the SL and Rosity EULA by submitting content to which you do not own the distribution rights to SL.
this is aside from the CopyBot issue.

and with regards to CopyBots: theyre not just a one-time thing. they will always be around, and soon there will be even more of them. any content uploaded to a medium like SL, much like the web, is extractable since it has to be uploaded to everyone you come into contact with. people in denial about copybots need to understand more about multiplayer game engines and how content such as copybots, wallhacks, etc work. by submitting custom content to a game, that content is potentially up for grabs to anyone in that game that comes into contact with your avatar (either via 3rd party utilities or just searching cached files). hiding your head in the sand and saying 'theres no such thing as copybots' or 'copybot users will be banned' doesnt change a thing.

its like someone taking your textures and putting them on a website, but then putting a no-right-click/save script up to 'protect' them, and then saying that they are not in an extractable medium. then when someone simply disables scripts, uses the firefox>page info workaround, or simply uses a browser that the script does not affect, they say 'well thats just a minority of people'.
if ONE person accesses that work you have distributed it in violation of the EULA.

I just got a response from DAZ support regarding this, and frankly I really hope it was a very junior member of their staff that wrote it, because it struck me as monumentally dumb.  Guilty parties shall remain nameless and regardless I'll pass along whatever further info they give me, maybe the person who initially responded hadn't had coffee yet.

*They don't NEED to be re-written, because ignorance of copyright law is not a defense in the case of infringement - but it wouldn't hurt.

Information about copyright law in the US (which follows the* Bern convention*):

http://copyright.gov/

I'm talking end user license agreements!  Tell me if someone buys your poser product and used it in a video game are you content that you sold it a $10.00 and the game made $250,000.  Wouldn't  you want a little more?

Now if you have a rolling EULA you could say,  price for video game usage $1000.00 plus 5% royalties.  Tell me what would be so wrong with vendors re writing their EULA's to include video game usage and royalties?

Pat I have no idea what you are on about - to all appearances, including the couple of email responses DAZ support has sent me so far, this is really just a case of DAZ staff not understanding how games work, which I'm trying to remedy (although I might need a bigger hammer to get it through).  I don't see anything to indicate DAZ is trying to grab rights to anybody else's texture content and start playing around with video game royalties.  Do you have some information that I do not?

The end user licenses are fairly plain in their wording, and DAZ's own guidelines make clear that this is not something they really should be doing:

DAZ FAQ "Can I use DAZ 3D's products in a video game that I am producing?"

Quote - The EULA forbids you from redistributing the geometry and the textures. You are not permitted to give a copy of the model (geometry) to another party. You are not permitted to distribute a model you derive from the geometry. You are not permitted to distribute a texture you derive from a texture you've purchased from DAZ 3D, except for products specifically designated as texture resources. You could use Victoria 4.1 and even create your own morphs or variations of the geometry, but you may not redistribute the geometry, both original or derivative, to another party.

 Consequently, this EULA essentially forbids using DAZ 3D geometry and textures in a real-time 3D game for all practical purposes.

I just got a response from DAZ copyright staff and they see the legal problem being discussed.  I think this was a genuine oversight on their part, they tell me they're going to discuss this with their higher-ups and decide what to do.  It being the weekend, I guess this will have to wait until Monday or later.

*I just got a response from DAZ copyright staff and they see the legal problem being discussed.  I think this was a genuine oversight on their part, they tell me they're going to discuss this with their higher-ups and decide what to do.  It being the weekend, I guess this will have to wait until Monday or later.

That is good news.  I'd suggest though if you are going to make a living freelancing in the 3d world that you retain both a lawyer and an accountant.

Well I brought up the SL Copyright issue in this thread over in the DAZ Commons, only to be told it wasn't an issue at all because nobody could copy the textures. Apparently nobody there believes in CopyBots.

Well I brought up the SL Copyright issue in this thread *over in the DAZ Commons, only to be told it wasn't an issue at all because nobody could copy the textures. Apparently nobody there believes in CopyBots.

Just read it... Anybody want to take bets on the number of mil figure textures that are going to flood SL? 

I'm sorry Blackhearted I've hijacked your thread.  Take care everyone and I'll talk with you all later.

prediction as to what happens with this.  the SL TC2 plugin isn't gunna make a lot of money and 3d universe just pulls it themselves.  Daz tells 3d universe it's to 'contriversal'  and has it pulled.  Daz has 'investigated' and because daz is about 'growing the community' they have it pulled.

this isn't a Daz3D product, this is a 3D Universe brokered PA product.

I don't think this plugin has a life.  There are so many plugins in the works for TC2 that the SL one is just a can of worms, give money back, gift certificate etc and they will just move on and have the SL TC2 plugin killed.

That's my guess.  Sure brought the ongoing issue of SL up front and in your face though.

This part was explained to me some time ago by an attorney. Sort of paraphrasing here....

Apparently this is a common clause which allows SL to distribute the images generated within Second Life. If they were not allowed, only you would see any of your creations, everyone else would see you as a default figure. That is why it says... *your Content within the Service as permitted by you through your interactions on the Service,

the within the Service is the key.... If you look at your ISP, many Web Sites, etc... that allow upload of images, you will see this type of language. It is what allows them to display what is uploaded. I recall many of the Galleries going through changes in their TOS and this type of language needing to be clarified.

The question here is if the person using any Derivative, even for personal use within SL, has the right to display or redistribute any such content in accordance to this agreement.

Quote - you guys are missing something:

“…you understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the service, you automatically grant (and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant) to Linden Lab: (a) a royalty-free, worldwide, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to (i) use, reproduce and distribute your Content within the Service as permitted by you through your interactions on the Service, and (ii) use and reproduce (and to authorize third parties to use and reproduce) any of your Content in any or all media for marketing and/or promotional purposes in connection with the Service;”*"

i just read of a case of someone's avatar being used for SL marketing purposes without their approval. i cant find the article, but the guy wasnt upset - flattered actually - just noted that he wasnt asked to sign a release.

Gabe I tried to report it here too>>>>

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3299674&ebot_calc_page#message_3299674

Cause I thought it seemed strange all the loose talk of converting textures to make SL characters and I swear one post in there did say to SELL! But now I can't find it. But you know if one says it, it is probably a definite thought to many!

Hugs

Ariana

What is a "copybot" ?

Quote - What is a "copybot" ?

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Help:CopyBot

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/16/copybot-action/

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/14/use-of-copybot-and-similar-tools-a-tos-violation/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CopyBot

http://theory.isthereason.com/?p=1388

Quote - > Quote - Although textures could be stolen, it would take a fair amount of work to do it because mapping is different.

Well that just changed -> TC2 - Second Life Avatar

It was never very hard before that either.. 3 yrs ago .. i took a look because someone I knew was approached and asked if they could convert her character textures to use in SL and sell.. well hahaha keyword so they could sell.. I don't think so..

The basic template for the SL avatar isn't that far off from say V3 .. was pretty easy for me to reconstruct a V3 texture onto an SL template of their Avatars.

And Gabe is right.. there are more creepy people there then um.. normal people I think.

DarkePhazeGraphiX that was me .. :)

Quote - *It dawned on me,  Daz is creating a pipeline to get poser content into video games.

*Here's another proof for that: The new textureconverter 2, released yesterday at DAZ has a second-life plug-in so can convert any  V4, V3,M3 etc. texture into a second-life texture.

best regards,

Bopper.

WE ARE ALL GONNA GET SCREWED ..doesn't matter that is plainly in red wordings says can not convert textures of another person and sell anywhere.. people from SL do not care and are gonna do it anyways. Hell pretty soon all 3D stores will have a SL section or something.

;)

Yep it is sounding more and more like SL has no scruples or ethics. I have spoken to people who alluded to how easy it is to make SL content from poser content.  So apparently SL is a real draw for pirates and others. I have never seen anything but bad pixelated junk from there.

I remember once I belonged to an msn group that created pics from pixels (*little colored squares) UGH! I stayed a week and left fast... such a pain to make anything of consequence!

I'll stick with poser!

Hugs

ariana

Oh they have no scruples alright and don't even care what they take from others stores to sell, they just repackage it away they go, no talent no brains and mega thieves

There I said it and they can scream all they like.

Brava! You know when i asked "over there" about why there was a SL plugin, I was basically told it was ok, cause it is only to make a personal avatar... No one asked if that base texture was really protected from being "Borrowed" and reworked. From what it is beginning to look like, you can take almost any SL and re-work it.

Ugh... bad stuff!

Hugs

Ariana

Thats BS is daz thinks those thieves at SL will abide by that only make avatar nonsence

Stupid place with stupid people that really need a life.  There said that too, creepy idiots.